Hear my Cartridges....🎶

Speaking of different arms and decks and the difference they make, especially with your "Decca" LDR in mind, I just got my Super Gold back from John Wright with a Decapod fitted and new Paratrace stylus. I installed it in my 9" Jelco TK-850 and it didn't sound good. Lot of surface noise and missing inner detail. I adjusted VTA and VTF and improved it some but it hadn't a patch on the other Decca (Garrott Bros Gold with new LC stylis and Decapod) on the 12". A little irked, I tried it in the 12" version of the same arm on the same table. Ridiculous. Transformed. No surface noise. Tons of detail. Crystal clear. Musical as all hell. In fact, I can't stop playing album after album. Ridiculous! 

Thanks for the feedback 😃
The FR-S3 is a hard plastic (don't know if it's Bakelite) but it's obviously the same as the body design for their FR-7 Series cartridges which look, in turn....inspired by the A Series SPU Bodies.

The Deccas are notoriously finicky and selective....
My LDR suddenly began to distort and mistrack after a few weeks of use and I sent it to John Wright who repaired it

The Stylus holder is damaged and needs replacing. 1. London Reference Cartridge serial no.LR-84.    Remove stylus assembly from cartridge, extract diamond from holder and clean.    Fit diamond into new holder and attach tie cord.     Install stylus assembly into cartridge, recalibrate and test........................£200.00                                                                                        Carriage...........   20.00                                                                                        Total................£220.00

When I received it back and played it....it was boring and sounded unlike it had before the damage so I sent it back to John who responded:

I have fitted your diamond stylus in a slightly stiffer holder. This will give you the brighter sound you had before.
Yes I have listened to the cartridge and I agree it didn't have the 'brightness' usually associated with the Decca cartridges.Sometimes they can be too bright and I try to obtain a balance between the two extremes.

So the cartridge can be 'tuned' in several ways....
Makes for interesting listening experiences...😳

Thanks for sharing that insider info. I had no idea JW would vary materials like that. Does it mean each cartridge has to be fine tuned for brightness by changing the "stylus holder" materials? Can you imagine the possibilities? Tungsten, silicon carbide, bamboo spines, diamond?

Well I've just ordered an LDR motivated by Halcro's videos. Let's see what I get. BTW, @Halcro it was not a warranty repair after only a few weeks of use?

@noromance can it be that the 12" arm has a higher effective mass which Decca's seem to prefer?

@bydlo Most likely. Although their effective mass is listed as the same on Jelco's site. I posted the issue as a separate post on Analog.

@bydlo Congrats on the LDR. It should sound magnificent in your 930/FR64. If it doesn't, send it back for adjustment. I don't believe you can buy direct from JW but perhaps you could specify a sonic signature from the distributor per @halcro posts above.

Congratulations on the LDR Bydlo.....
A fabulous present for the New Decade 🎉

it was not a warranty repair after only a few weeks of use?

Unfortunately it was not a product fault.....I had damaged the cartridge holder by dipping the stylus in Zerodust (after dipping it in Magic Eraser) as I do with all my cartridges...🤗
The LDR does not have a cantilever like normal cartridges and is 'held' in a 'holder' and tied in place.
The Zerodust actually 'clamps' the stylus and pulls it away as you remove it. I can see how that can damage the 'holder' and dislodge the stylus....😱
So I now only use Magic Eraser with the LDR......NO ZERODUST!!!!!

And I've been thinking about Noromance's comments on what the effect would be if the material of the 'holder' were to be varied...?
We all know what different cantilever materials can do to the sound....
Do you think that John Wright has tried different materials and listened to the results...?
Interesting 🤔

Please let us know when you receive the LDR Bydlo and have had a chance to become acquainted with it.....
I think I'm almost as excited as you....🤪

Hi guys, thanks for the encouragement :) I’ve ordered through via the only possible way - through Presence Audio and Brian Smith. I’ll specify that I want more lively rather than darker signature. I think the headshell can do something here too. I’ll start with Orsonic 101 which is the heaviest I have. BTW after reading @Halcro comments I tried bending it with my fingers. No freaking way I could deform it.

As the New Year looms....I think it's time to try our final Shootout 🤼‍♂️
I began this Thread mainly to demonstrate that MM cartridges are not necessarily inferior to MCs......
The fact that LOMCs (and MI) have taken the top spots should not condemn the hypothesis...🧐
The price differential between current LOMC cartridges and MMs is indefensible.
No cartridge is worth $10,000-$20,000 based on the sonic benefits delivered in reality.

The second aim of this Thread was to demonstrate that little progress in cartridge design technology, has occurred in the last 30 years.
This applies emphatically in MM cartridge design....but also in LOMC designs.
The vintage cartridges of both types that have been presented here, generally exceed the sonic qualities of current 'modern' designs.

Without further ado.....let's hear how close a 35 year-old MM cartridge, can come to a $10,000 current-production 'uber' LOMC...😝

VINTAGE VICTOR X-1 MM CARTRIDGE

AS PALLADIAN LOMC CARTRIDGE

VINTAGE VICTOR X-1 MM CARTRIDGE

AS PALLADIAN LOMC CARTRIDGE

Spoiler Alert: The Palladian has been training for this contest and is 'On Fire'.....🔥

First, thank you again for what has been a very interesting thread. A great and rare opportunity to hear so many great cartridges.

I think your motivation for starting this thread is commendable. I can’t really comment on whether, in absolute terms, you met all your goals since I think that those are very personal calls. I think your first premise that MC’s are not necessarily better than MM’s was proven (again) handily. The top cartridges that you have treated us to are at an extremely high level of sonic excellence. Still, there remain differences between them that in the context of a particular system may swing our preference for one over the other because one moves the overall sound of a system a little closer to, not away from, our sense of what the sound of the real thing is. As with so many things in our hobby context is, if not everything, extremely important. I don’t know how one attaches a “correct” or “fair” cost to a cartridge that pushes the overall sound of a particular system a step closer to that sense of what reality is in a sonic area of personal priority.


For me, this thread has made clearer two things in particular. Just how much musical detail and nuance can be heard in a YouTube download recorded using rudimentary and portable recording gear was a big surprise. Then, the unexpected amount of detail reinforced and confirmed for me what I have always felt about MM’s vs MC’s.

i know some disagree with this premise, but I have always felt that in the area of tonality and timbre each type has, in a very fundamental way, a sound and character, or aspects of those, that carries to just about every cartridge of the same type that I have heard; a family sound. However, each does it by deviating from MY sense of what tonal truth is by going in opposite directions. My impressions of the Victor vs the Palladian confirmed once again why I feel this way.

The Victor sounds gorgeous. Maybe a little too gorgeous? The violin sounds just amazing. What a fantastic recording! Your system sounds particularly great with that record. However, there is a plummy character in the overall sound and a little bit of a “cupped hands around mouth” character in the frequency range of the woodwinds. The plummy character makes the harp’s lower strings too round and thick, and the upper strings don’t have as much of the characteristic gentle incisiveness and snap that is evident with the Palladian.

The Palladian swings a little the other way. It sounds a little dry. But, it sounds more linear without the excess in the lower mids and I would say that it swings toward the dry less so than the Victor swings toward the beautifully plummy. The main reason that I like the Decca so much is that, for me, it seems to strike a tonal balance between the two. As they say, “the truth is usually somewhere in the middle”. The sound staging seems amazing with the Victor. However, while the Palladian’s individual images sound smaller, they seem more correctly proportioned (size wise) relative to each other and better organized within the soundstage.

A surprise was that these characteristics were even more evident on the Brubeck clip. The generous lower mids and below character of the Victor made the piano’s left hand too full and thick robbing the piano of a little bit of its percussive role in the music. The absence of that extra fullness with the Palladian makes the musical flow a little more lithe. Paul Desmond’s is one my very favorite alto saxophone sounds. I have heard just about everything that he has recorded and I feel I have a pretty good idea of what his sound was. He famously said, when asked how he got that sound, that he wanted to sound “like a dry martini”. Great analogy that I get. With the Victor his tone is a little too wet. With the Palladian it sounds closer to real with the distinctive dryness as well as a little bit of brass sheen that seems totally absent with the Victor. Tonally, the Palladian sounds a little less like a recording than the Victor does.

Would I pay $10,000 for the Palladian? Of course not, I could live more than happily with the Victor. The differences are subtle and the Victor can sound absolutely gorgeous. But, .....

I hope none of my comments come across as attempting to dispute any of your premises. Just personal impressions based on my own preferences and biases. All very interesting and thank you again for one of the most interesting threads on Agon.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

Thank you Frogman...firstly for the kind words about this Thread and my System....and secondly, for all your significant and valuable contributions over the year 🤗
Of the 25,000 views.....I've been told that just as many people are reading for your comments, as to actually listen to the cartridges.

I've personally learnt a great deal myself....not the least, that you are correct about MC Cartridges being inherently slightly better than MMs 'when they are done RIGHT' 🙃.
The discovery of the Sony XL-88 and XL-88D and the reinforcement of my appreciation for the JMAS MIT-1 and PALLADIAN conclusively places them at the pinnacle of my cartridge collection.
I have also, thanks to your comments.....developed an increased appreciation for the singular attributes of the Decca London Reference.

Let me say that I agree totally with your comments re the Victor X-1 and Palladian.....
I also feel that the 'air' and 'reality' surrounding the higher frequencies with the Palladian....are superior to the Victor.
One thing I must ask you.......
On the Tchaikovsky, there are three subway trains passing under Kingsway Hall which are not only clearly audible in my listening room....but are also FELT with vibrations of the stomach-lining...
I can hear nothing of these on playback over my iPad or my upstairs computer and was wondering if, with your sophisticated headphones and amp....you can detect anything?

Finally I would like to thank the other regular contributors....Noromance, Dover and Harold (when he finds time to leave his barrel) 🤪

May 2020 be kinder than 2019 and.....
Let The Music Play 🎼🎹🥁🎷🎺🎸🎻

In my last Post, I mentioned the fact that I couldn't hear the subway trains under Kings Hall on the Tchaikovsky with either my iPad or Computer speakers.....hardly surprising 🥴
In the meantime I managed to playback the YouTube Video through my actual system and could HEAR the subway trains....🤗

So I thought it might be revealing to hear the differences between the 1st Generation Youtube Video of the actual VINYL with the Youtube recording of the YouTube Video.....🤔
I can hear significant losses......

1ST GENERATION YOUTUBE VIDEO

2ND GENERATION YOUTUBE VIDEO  

Those who have been following this Thread, will know that I’ve been advocating the great sound available from some of the best vintage MM Cartridges from the Golden Age of Analogue.
Let's try this Shoot-Out....

VINTAGE VICTOR X1II MM CARTRIDGE

AS PALLADIAN LOMC CARTRIDGE

AS PALLADIAN LOMC CARTRIDGE

VINTAGE VICTOR X-1II MM CARTRIDGE

One thing I’ve learnt for sure.......those Victor Engineers in Japan, we will never see the likes of again 😢

Good to see you back, Halcro. First, I hope that you and yours are well and staying healthy during this crazy time we are all living through.

Interesting cartridge comparison as always. Stunning playing by Stern and, as usual, your system sounds fabulous (with the Victors; but, with a very strong caveat). I will offer two observations that may or may not be related; although I suspect that they are. I hesitated to point these out, but it really makes a fair comparison impossible for me.

You have treated us to the sound of your TW Acustic Raven several times previously and while its beautiful sound has shown some qualities that in comparison to the Victor’s direct drive design could be attributed to its belt drive design never did I hear anything that I would describe as speed instability of any kind (however subtle). Admittedly, sustained piano notes as in the Bloch’s introduction are a brutal test for any turntable. However, in comparison to the Victor turntable’s rock solid speed stability the Raven shows a subtle pitch waver in the sustained piano notes. More importantly and re my comment about another possibly related observation is the fact that the Raven is running a full semitone (half step) too fast; not a small deviation. This changes the key of both the Bloch and Armatrading selections (semitone higher). Could all this point to a problem with the Raven’s drive system?

Warm regards.

I prefer the DD rendition of both pieces. Admittedly, there is a little more euphony with the Raven but I prefer the cleaner and crisper Victor. Frogman’s astute observation is of note too. I wonder if this is why the LDR never quite sounded 100% on the Raven-something I have pointed out before. Interesting...

Also interesting because I never noticed the Raven’s faster speed in prior comparisons.  Did something change?  One semitone equals a big difference in speed; about 6%! 

Welcome Frogman...and thank you for the kind words re my system...
It's really appreciated 🤩
I've been thinking a lot about you since this crisis has hit...
Being a professional musician, I feared that your livelihood had been guillotined overnight..?
I sincerely hope that you are coping and are in line for the Government 'Bail-Out' that others in the States will receive?

As usual....your 'Golden Ears' are spot-on 👂
I don't know how it happened, but I checked the speeds using the Timeline and they were indeed 'bizarre' 🥴 Both 33.33 and 45 RPM.
As I had just re-set them both recently, this was a shock 🤔
I will keep a careful eye (and ear) on them for the immediate future...

I will re-record this afternoon, with the adjusted speed.
Will be interesting...

Also interesting is the verdict of Noromance with which I agree....
However, it's puzzling how he associates his preferences with the DD Turntable rather than the cartridge...?
And hopefully....on the adjusted recordings, we can all hear the true cartridge comparisons?

Regards to you both 🤗

OK......let’s try again 🤪

AS PALLADIAN LOMC CARTRIDGE

VINTAGE VICTOR X-1II MM CARTRIDGE

VINTAGE VICTOR X-1II MM CARTRIDGE

AS PALLADIAN LOMC CARTRIDGE

Aah, much better! Thank you. And, thank you for your concern. The pandemic has ground all live performance to a halt and, unfortunately, I’m afraid that my industry will be one of the last to return to "normal". My family and I are fine in all respects though and we left NYC for our place in upstate NY where we are with nature and no neighbors nearby. I’m enjoying having some down time; wish circumstances were different.

I don’t have my Stax headphone ("earspeakers" 😏) setup up here, but do have a system more modest than my all tube/electrostatics system downstate. Meitner ss amplification (PA6i/MTR101 monos), Totem floorstanders, REL sub and Nordost cabling. I listened on that system as well as Panasonic earbuds with iPad as source for both. My impressions were consistent both ways.

As expected, great sound from both cartridges. However, my preference is not for the Victor mm. Differences were all relatively subtle, but obvious and go to my personal sonic priorities of truthfulness in timbre and tonality and clarity of musical interaction above all else.

The sound with the Victor mm had the advantage of the dd table’s rock solid speed stability. The Raven’s is very good, but a very subtle pitch waver could still be heard on sustained piano notes; and would probably not be noticed if not comparing to the Victor. Interestingly, this seemed less obvious than when the Raven was running fast. Again, very subtle. That was about the only area in which, for me, the sound with the Victor mm was superior.

In comparison to the Palladian the Victor sounds a little thick and slightly covered sounding in the highs. This causes the piano’s left hand low register passages to sound a little muddled compared to the Palladian’s ability to let one hear the vibrating piano stings more clearly and with better defined pitch (1:15+/-). The end result is that more subtle musical detail and interaction is heard with the Palladian. The Palladian reveals more of the sound of rosin on string than the Victor does and the timbre is more consistent from low register to high register. With the Victor, violin sounds a little covered as does the piano which sounds as if the lid is closed as opposed to open as with the Palladian. I suspect that in the context of a system voiced to the hot side of neutral the Palladian could make the violin sound a little steely. An interesting effect which I think is the result of the extra thickness in the sound of the Victor is that when the violin plays forte, its image in the soundstage gets larger causing the spatial relationship between violin and piano to change: the violin ends up sounding much larger than the piano. The Palladian doesn’t exibit this and the relationship remains closer to what one years when the music is not as loud. At first I thought that the two selections were not level matched with the Victor being slightly louder, but this may be the result of the previous observation.

Surprisingly, a lot of the above was even more obvious in the Armatrading selection (loved it, btw).

Overall, the vintage Victor mm sounds....a little vintage. The Palladian doesn’t sound as romantic and as spatially enveloping as the Victor does; but, for me, the sounds it makes sound less like a recording. A sound that is a little cleaner overall while the Victor seems to have a subtle texture in the "air" around the instruments. Needless to say, it is incredible that a vintage cartridge can sound so good for so much less money than something like the Palladian; and, of course, all this based on my personal preferences only.

As always, a treat to have a chance to hear and compare such great cartridges.

Thanks and regards.

Hi Frogman,
Glad to hear you're all ok and taking the opportunity to 'chill out' 🙃🥃
The extra time you now have allows me the benefit of your latest (and even more detailed) cartridge comparisons....
I am grateful, as always...for your observations with which I agree  entirely 😃
As you indicate...the differences between the $10,000 Palladian LOMC and the 36 year old Victor X-1II MM are very subtle, and in the absence of these instantly available comparisons.....I'm just as happy listening to the Victor 🤗

One thing I'd like to add (because you continually point it out but it can be often forgotten)......the Palladian is an incredible cartridge.
Certainly the best currently available phono cartridge I have heard (excepting the DLR)....
It demonstrates to me, that the humble aluminium cantilever (albeit a specific alloy thereof)....is as equally adept as even the most exotic materials like Beryllium, Ruby or Diamond.
It's all in the understanding and execution of the cartridge designer, and it's no surprise that Dietrich Brakemeier has chosen it as his preferred material given his long history with, and love of....the Ikeda-designed Fidelity Research FR-7 Series of cartridges.

And whilst on the subject of cantilever materials.....after owning close to 100 different cartridges of all types and brands, I can say that to my ears....Boron Cantilevers are to cartridges, what Kryptonite is to Superman 🤮
There is not a single cartridge with Boron Cantilever I have heard, do justice to the 'soul' of MUSIC as I know and love it....
Even when the designers try to mitigate the weaknesses by GOLD-PLATING the Boron. It's like putting lipstick on a pig 🐖
I'm hoping to find an AT-ML180/OCC with its original Beryllium choice for cantilever 🧐 
The ONLY Boron Cantilever I can live with is that of the Jico SAS although I prefer it with their Sapphire or Ruby.
But that's my personal preference based on my personal experiences.
As always YMMV...😝

Thank you again Frogman...
Keep well and safe.

Hi Frogman,
Seeing that you're 'captive' and have 'Time on you Hands' so to speak 🤗......I wonder if you could do me a favour....?

About 8 Posts up from here.....I posted recordings of a 1ST GENERATION YouTube file just like all the ones contained in this Thread and then posted a comparison 2ND GENERATION recording of the 1ST recording being played back through my System.
As expected...there are losses which are obvious, but I wondered if you could, in your inimitable 'Golden-Eared' way....describe the losses as YOU hear them for they may inform us of the 'degree' of fidelity YouTube videos provide?

Hope you can Frogman..🤪
Regards

@frogman 
I’ll read through tomorrow, you probably already stated this, but what arm did you use to compare these cartridges? Steve.

Steve, I’’m certain that when you read through your misunderstanding will be made clear. I will let Halcro, OP, explain in more detail. (Not relevant, but my arm of choice is the Eminent Technology ET2 HP) . Regards.

Halcro, I will respond to your request later today.

I agree with @frogman on the piano being recessed somewhat and the better air around instruments on the Victor. However, in other aspects, it's as if he's listening to swapped versions of what I hear. I hear the Palladian as romantic and euphonic, and even colored, overly saturated and dense. The Vic sounds like someone is in the room - clean, neutral, airy, transparent. The Palladian like it's been studio enhanced. Admittedly, there are qualities of warmth and woody tone with the MC, and the piano is definately more present. I just prefer that cooler, more honest rendering of the MM.

Re 1rst vs 2nd generation YouTube videos:

No comparison. Differences were so obvious and immediate that it seems almost pointless to describe in detail. I was taken aback the contrast as I wasn’t expecting it to be so great.

2nd generation, overall much lower "fi". Loss of detail in about every respect. Loss of highs, muddy mids and lows, shrunken soundstage both side to side and front to back. As a result and most importantly, obvious decrease in musical aliveness. Wow!

Fascinating our perceived differences between the Victor and Palladian, noromance. When I read your original comment describing the Victor as "crisper"/"cleaner" and the Palladian as more "euphonic", I had the same reaction as you; like the cartridges were swapped. I hear it as just the reverse. A semantics issue perhaps? I wlll even up the ante (so to speak) by pointing out that what I described as "subtle texture in the air around instruments" was not meant to suggest that the Victor had better air as you hear; just the opposite. I heard an extraneous texture in the spaces between instruments that the Palladian did not add. Palladian sounds cleaner to me and certainly not romantic, nor the Victor cooler; as I define the terms.

All very interesting and I don’t doubt for a moment that this is what you hear. Fascinating. Vive la differance!!

I used reasonably good over the ear headphones on my phone. It's weirding me out! I'm going to have to try on PC to my second rig downstairs later. Keep well.

2nd generation, overall much lower "fi". Loss of detail in about every respect. Loss of highs, muddy mids and lows, shrunken soundstage both side to side and front to back. As a result and most importantly, obvious decrease in musical aliveness. Wow!

Yeah....massive deterioration 😱
I wanted to objectively establish a 'gauge' for the relationship between the recorded YouTube Video and the 'Live Event' (so to speak).....
I've been fairly pleased with the quality of sound on the videos compared to what I hear in situ....
Of course we all know that 'The Real Thing' must be better than a recording of it.....but there are nowhere near the losses that are evident from 1st to 2nd Generation recordings.
I don't know how to explain this as the 1st Gen recording is being played back through the same preamp, amps and speakers using the same interconnects and cables.
The only difference I can pinpoint is that the signal for the 2nd Gen is going through the Line-Level input of the preamp rather than the phono....?
But all my other sources which do the same thing (tuner, tape, CD, aux) sound wonderful...🤗
Something is causing this which might be evident to others....?

Thanks for the evaluation Frogman.....

It took awhile but I read the whole thing. Thanks for sharing. Im not setup to listen to this properly with headphones but appreciated everyone’s comments. And I must say, excellent writing. I’ve been following your crowd for years and just recently experiencing vintage mm cartridges. An nos Stanton 881s. Have acquired a couple others (top models) but haven't tried them yet.  @halcro 
A  question  about the AT-ML180/OCC. I always thought the OFC was the earlier version and was Beryllium. And the OCC was later and boron?

It took awhile but I read the whole thing.

Good grief....a marathon session 🥴
Did you only READ the whole thing @sdrsdrsdr...or also LISTEN to all the recordings?
I know you wrote that you’re not setup to listen properly....but are you able to listen AT ALL?

Regarding the AT-ML180/OCC.....the OCC stands for Ohno Continuous Casting process

In 1986 the Ohno Continuous Casting (OCC) Process was developed by professor Ohno of the Chiba Institute of Technology in Japan. The wire made by this process is claimed by our manufacturer to be 99.999 % pure and in our thinnest wire size (50 micron) that it has one crystal boundary per 6.5 km on avearge. Normal wire has a number of contaminants particularly Oxygen, Sulphur, Lead, Antimony and Aluminium and is typically 99.97% pure and has a cristal boundary perhaps every 10 mm.

This, from a knowledgeable audiophile:-

OFC is Oxygen Free Copper
OCC is Ohno Continuous Casting

Oxygen free is a good thing because it is corrosive. Just a high purity copper will do fine thanks.
Professor Ohno devised a method so there would be no or few boundaries in the copper.

In theory both of these are a good thing but the effect is really tiny and probably inaudible.
The OCC in particular is hardly relevant. Every solder joint or RCA or banana connection will have vastly larger breaks and I am skeptical that it is possible to audibly detect misalignment in the copper boundaries.

In the latter part of the ’80s.....Beryllium was declared "unsafe" to work with in some processes and cartridge cantilever manufacturing is one of these, hence....no modern cartridges utilise Beryllium.
OCC and OFC are independent of whether Beryllium or Boron is used.

On the original packaging of my AT-ML180/OCC....you can see the SEPARATE LABEL stating that it came with a "Gold-Plated Boron Cantilever".
This label obviously covers the original proclamation of BERYLLIUM CANTILEVER.....
That’s the model I will continue to seek...🧐

Regards

@halcro 

I did listen with my computer speakers to some also. It just wasn’t good enough to make a judgement like others could. Yes, like many others I find myself with much time on my hands now.  Spent the last three three years building my new business and neglecting my hobby. Good to be back. Just hope it’s not too long. Lol.
About the  AT-ML180. I have an OFC version I got recently and was told it was beryllium. It’s not in original packaging and don’t know how to tell for sure. I had it inspected by SoundSmith and should have asked at the time. They did tell me it looked to have an estimated 150 hours usage with an expected 850 left. Nice to know. I got it from a guy named Ellie that some may know. Do you know how to tell if it is beryllium or boron?

Steve.

Hi Steve,
Beryllium normally looks like THIS 
But if your AT-ML180 stylus is not GOLD-COATED......then it should be Beryllium 😃
You lucky dog....🎉

Regards
Henry

@ 
@chakster 
I guess my AT-ML180 ofc may be Boron. It’s gold plated.

But if you look at the first and second comments Chakster made at the beginning of this. He says the occ comes with gold plated beryllium cantilever. And the ofc is gold plated boron pipe. According to him they are both gold plated. The ofc is the earlier version so I assumed it would be the beryllium and the occ being later would probably be boron. Wasn’t beryllium phased out in the years the occ was available?

@halcro 
 I meant to put your name on my previous post too. Also, how did your AT-ML180 hold up in comparison to the  other cartridges compared? 

I listened again on my all tube/Spendor/REL S30 rig. Amazing how it now sounds so more like a recording in free space compared to my headphones. I'm sure I heard your dog bark. I am convinced the Raven adds a golden warmth to the reproduction. There is also a thickening in the upper bass and lower mids. You played the AS on your SAEC arm in 2019, and it doesn't have that sound on the Victor. I also heard an album I know intimately on a Raven (Basis table?) at AXPONA '19 and that aspect was there then too. So, I can't be certain how the actual cartridges perform in their own right. 

I listened again on my all tube/Spendor/REL S30 rig. Amazing how it now sounds so more like a recording in free space compared to my headphones.

Yes....I much prefer hearing the 'air', 'soundstage' and 'instrument locations' provided by speakers over headphones 🤩

I am convinced the Raven adds a golden warmth to the reproduction.

I've always stated that the Belt-Drive Raven projects a more relaxed and somewhat less analytical interpretation than the DD Victor....and that's not surprising.
"Golden warmth" sounds quite inviting....🤗

All the early recordings with the Palladian were done when it was mounted on the SAEC Arm on the Victor.
Dover then suggested it be moved to the Palladian as he felt it wasn't quite optimised on the WE-8000/ST....
We then did a comparison which concluded that the Palladian on the Raven was indeed better than on the Victor.
Here they are again.....

PALLADIAN ON VICTOR TT-101

PALLADIAN ON RAVEN

Whilst you have, admittedly...always expressed reservations about the Raven's abilities vis-a-vis the Victor......it has never stopped Frogman from choosing his 'favourite' LDR played on the Raven.
Nor has it hindered his appreciation for the Palladian when mounted on either table.

I appreciate your sensibilities and preferences are perhaps more 'acute' in certain respects than for me or Frogman....
And that's fine. As Frogman says..."Vive la difference!!"

What I find encouraging about your particular preferences, is that the humble 35 year-old MM Victor X-1II competes with a $10,000 LOMC cartridge.....and comes out on top 🎉
In some ways, I agree with you 🤯

Thanks for your contributions.

I’ve had many people contact me asking where they can find a VICTOR X-1II?
The bad news is........you probably can’t 😢
Even if you do.....it will probably have a damaged or missing stylus.
If you’re patient enough to wait 2-3 years....you might get lucky to see one advertised on Japan Yahoo with a good stylus (like I did).
Some more bad news......
You’ll have to outlay north of $1000+ to win it at auction.
Same goes for the VICTOR X-1 and X-1IIE 

I don’t understand why.....but Jico do not produce a SAS replacement styli for the X-1 variants.
They DO however produce SAS STYLI replacements for the VICTOR Z-1 model.
And the Z-1 Cartridges are way more plentiful and CHEAP 🎉
Find one without a stylus for $40....add a brand new Jico SAS for $250 and for less than $300, you will have a cartridge better than any modern current-production MM up to $1000 and beyond.

Let’s see what the listening panel thinks....🧐

VICTOR Z-1/SAS MM CARTRIDGE

VICTOR Z-1/SAS MM CARTRIDGE

@halcro 

i see you started out with comparing the AT-ML180. Sorry I don’t know why I missed that. And the discussion discussed what I asked. Thanks.
Steve.

Palladian on Raven on my end sounds better than Victor. But I would probably  give the tonearm the more credit here. More full bodied and smooth. What do you think? You know your tables sound characteristics. Do the tables using the same tonearms have different presentations that we would  notice on our end.

Do the tables using the same tonearms have different presentations that we would  notice on our end.

Tough question Steve.....
The specific sound of each cartridge, tonearm and turntable is so intertwined as a combination, that I'm not prepared to try and apportion qualities to the individual components.
What I do know....is that some cartridges sound better on one arm than another and ALL cartridges sound differently with different headshells 🙃

Palladian on Raven on my end sounds better than Victor. But I would probably  give the tonearm the more credit here.

I think you're onto something here Steve.....
The Copperhead is just an amazing-sounding arm 🤩

THE LONDON DECCA REFERENCE
A phono-cartridge surrounded by mysticism and controversy....
A MI CARTRIDGE WITHOUT CANTILEVER which arrives in its PURPLE VELVET POUCH and looks.....RATHER PLAIN 🥴?

Apart from the 'mythology' around this cartridge....there is a general 'directive' that the LDR does NOT sound its best when loaded at the standard 47K Ohms Resistance with Zero (lowest) Capacitance....

Here is your chance to listen.....

LDR R-47K Ohms Cap-Zero

LDR R-15K Ohms Cap 430 pF

If you can hear the differences via YouTube, to what are quite subtle variations.....it will say a lot about the value of YouTube Videos.
Please let me know....🤗

@halcro
1st imression at 47k was a bit of a surprise for me, with several Garrot Decca Golds under my belt, the LDR was a lot smoother at 47k than the Decca Golds of old at 47k - they were rip your ears off.

Having said that moving to the 15k, for me the variations are quite noticeable ( even on Mac earbuds ). At 15k the string sections are not only more fleshed out but the coherency and timing, particularly in the upper bass/lower mid area is much crisper and more rhythmically coherent.

Frogman can comment on instrument accuracy, he might suggest a little too warm on some sections of the orchestra, but for me the timing and coherency at 15k easily outstrips 47k, the music far better communicated and more enjoyable at this setting.

With the old Garrott modded Deccas I preferred 22k - have you tried this value with the LDR ?

My wife even heard the difference playing the phone on the table. Much the same as what @dover said. Nicer tone and easier to follow. Transient attack might be a little slower.
Interestingly, I prefer 47k on my lesser Deccas. Mostly because I love detail and the sound I get. 

Isn't it fantastic that you both heard the differences so clearly on the simplest devices 😃
I can also hear them through my iPad and iMac speakers but was not sure if it was my 'knowing' the 'live' sound that might influence my hearing 🤔
I agree with both of you....
At 15K Ohms and 430pF....the cartridge simply comes 'alive'....
The changes in loading produce more fundamental differences than heard on many of the cartridge vs cartridge comparisons IMO 🤯
I think this proves quite convincingly....that phono pre-amps without fully adjustable loadings (in both Resistance and Capacitance) are designed without any appreciation for the beauty, nuances and NEEDS of MM/MI cartridges 🙃

Yes @dover ...I tried a multitude of combinations from 10K-60K Ohms Resistance and 0-430pF Capacitance and somewhat skeptically....arrived at 15K Ohms and Zero pF.
I say "skeptically" because that has been the general advice throughout the years, by so-called 'Experts'.
And I'm normally skeptical of experts....🥱😴

Thanks for your valued feedback....

A subject dear to my heart, thank you @halcro  for posting :)
For me the differences were not big (iphone6+apple earbuds) and had to switch back and forth several times. The most prominent is the "LF breathng" at 15K. It adds a very nice foundation to the sound, organizing it not only at LF but higher up in the spectrum. Add to the illusion of the recording venue. The bass (surprisingly) more controlled and (perhaps?) less boomy. In general, more involving and interesting presentation.
I'm not yet at the load play with my LDR but will try going down to 15K definitely!

I was wondering how you were going with your LDR @bydlo...?
It is important though, with the loading down at 15K Ohms....that the Capacitance is raised significantly to approx 430pF.
If you only load to 15K without adding Capacitance......the sound will be too 'plummy' and warm.
If you have adjustable Cap loading, you can dial in the exact 'sparkle' you want 💍

Not going much recently unfortunately - have been locked down 350km from my system. Waiting for all this to finish and comeback to experimenting with my LDR.

Man, I love the LDR! As I’ve commented previously, my favorite of all your fine cartridges, Halcro. Once again, for me and overall, the sound with the least amount of electronic artifacts as compared to the purity one hears in live sound. Beautiful sound!

Excellent comments by all and allowing for what I believe are simply personal semantics choices, I agree completely....with one caveat. Always nice to have agreement with other very astute listeners. I found Dover’s comment re the relationship between loading and capacitance very interesting.

At 15k: “nicer sound”, “coherency and timing”, “easier to follow” (!), “more controlled bass, less boomy”, “organizing” (!). I completely agree with those observations. I might describe what I hear the following way (semantics); and to get the caveat out of the way:

Dover is exactly right. While I do agree that the sound at 15k is smoother there are moments when I find the sound of strings to be “a little too warm” and rounded even if “more fleshed out”. However, this is subtle and handily compensated for by the superior coherency and better controlled and less boomy bass. A fascinating effect of 47K is that bass and organ seem to be thrust forward in the soundstage.  Besides sounding less controlled and somewhat boomy, the basses don’t occupy their correct place in relation to the upper strings, but are too forward both in placement as well as character. Likewise, the organ at times sounds to be in front of the orchestra as opposed to behind as it should. 47K seems to fragment the various sections of the orchestra (and organ) in an unnatural way. Soundstage is set back slightly at 15K compared to 47K’s more forward presentation. However, 15K “organizes” the sound in a more realistic way; more “coherent”, for a much more realistic sense of a typical orchestral “spread”. All this makes musical interplay “easier to follow” and gives a better sense of rhythmic impetus; ultimately, the most important considerations.

Excellent comments, gentlemen and thanks again to Halcro for the fascinating comparison.

Stay safe, all.