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All good.Â
I'm still waiting to hear the LDR on the DD where I think it will open up.
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TT1 sounds better - more detail retrieval, deeper insight into the music. Better drive. A little coarse but clean.
TT2 duller, further back in the auditorium. maybe nore space between instruments but loss of detail makes this a drag.
TT3 sounds better right from the opening. More dynamics, defined bass, air..
TT4 meh.
Now, I really don't have a clue which one is which but I have heard the Raven at AXPONA with triodes and Acora speakers and it sounded very warm and fluid but not very dynamic. I've also heard Technics 1200GAE and it was pretty detailed.
With that I mind I'll GUESS:
DD
BD
DD
BD |
That was fun. It's a relief that B was not the LDR! |
Quick listen on the phone so there's that. A sounds better to me. It's probably your Sony XL88D! But knowing your penchant for MM finds, it wouldn't surprise me if A was a vintage MM.
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Yamamoto HS-4 Carbon Fibre headshell @halcro Congrats on the new car. I have never liked carbon fiber. It sounds grey and lacking in detail. It's overdamped. I belive I have commented on this thread before on this subject. |
@bydlo Congrats on the LDR. It should sound magnificent in your 930/FR64. If it doesn't, send it back for adjustment. I don't believe you can buy direct from JW but perhaps you could specify a sonic signature from the distributor per @halcro posts above.
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@bydlo Most likely. Although their effective mass is listed as the same on Jelco's site. I posted the issue as a separate post on Analog.
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Thanks for sharing that insider info. I had no idea JW would vary materials like that. Does it mean each cartridge has to be fine tuned for brightness by changing the "stylus holder" materials? Can you imagine the possibilities? Tungsten, silicon carbide, bamboo spines, diamond?
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Speaking of different arms and decks and the difference they make, especially with your "Decca" LDR in mind, I just got my Super Gold back from John Wright with a Decapod fitted and new Paratrace stylus. I installed it in my 9" Jelco TK-850 and it didn't sound good. Lot of surface noise and missing inner detail. I adjusted VTA and VTF and improved it some but it hadn't a patch on the other Decca (Garrott Bros Gold with new LC stylis and Decapod) on the 12". A little irked, I tried it in the 12" version of the same arm on the same table. Ridiculous. Transformed. No surface noise. Tons of detail. Crystal clear. Musical as all hell. In fact, I can't stop playing album after album. Ridiculous!Â
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I did some quick listening to both with the Strauss on the LCa. The FRS3 sounded slightly cleaner and more detailed if not a little thinner and edgier. Is it bakelite or hard plastic? The CF had better bass and control but lacked sparkle.
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I agree....but how much of that we can attribute to the DD Victor over the Belt-Drive Raven, I don't know? Possibly more than you'd think. That's why I'd love to hear the LDR on the JVC. I listened to a Raven for hours at AXPONA and the system had a warm beguiling sound but not what I would call clear or incisive. Was it the big tube amps or the table? I must look it up and see what gear was being used. |
Cheapish headphones on PC. One listen quick A-B.
AS has a fuller bass, with more room-filling power and drive. JMAS seems to have a cleaner midband, more transparent and less congested upper bass. Listen to the French horn? around 5 mins in to hear what I mean. The JMAS sounds more exciting, somewhat ragged, and a little less veiled too. |
Ry Cooder sounded better on the Raven. The music was more coherent. The Victor was brighter but it was a mess.
Dire Straits however was the opposite. Dull and plodding on the Raven, lively and musical on the Victor. |
Late to the party. The Barodin Symphony No.2 shootout. First off, your system sounds great especially with my upgraded subwoofer. Second, the Sony really does excel. I listened to the LDR first and it sounded good but the subdued triangle near the opening set up its downfall to the Sony. Sure enough, the D was more detailed and made more sense of the music. |
Still following with interest. I'm trying to find time to listen on my digital rig. Will try for tonight. @halcro I have not forgot the headshell issue 😉 |
Raul. We know all this. We accept the experiment as it is. Let’s call it a fun and slightly illogical and maybe flawed hueristic methodology. We trust that Halcro has selected the best combination of arm/table to enable each cartridge to perform at its best. And if we come across a better combination, he invokes it and we move on from there.Â
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Interesting that you brought up the ’powering through the stylus drag’ aspect of the DD. It’s both the very reason I run idlers and why I think you’re not hearing the best the LDR has to offer. (!) Speaking of 40 years. One of my Deccas is 35 years old and sounds excellent.
Wonderful Prokofiev. I’m listening to Symphony No.7 thanks to you!
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I prefer the Sony. There is more drive and menace in what I hear from it. Piccolo and tympani are clearer and easier to follow. The AS sounds cluttered and almost confused at times, even though it sounds more detailed.
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You could always sell a cartridge and afford the good stuff!
Because of this post, I’m tasting 3 tonight. The Benriach 16, Auchentoshan 12, and The Balvenie Peat Week 14. Hic.
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Heard the ice plop! What scotch are you drinking?
Wife said Shure sounds nicer playing on the phone, in bed.
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I compared both with my own original copy on my second rig. Not kidding and not surprised and I know you know this but golly, the YouTube version is bad.
EDIT - played the YouTube versions again after listening to the real record. The hell... they sounded much better than the pre-real record listening session.
EDIT - played it again on my main rig. Slate modded 401 with retipped Decca Gold (Garrott Bros Microscanner Decapod with LDR line contact).
Man. Nearfield on the Quad ESL, it is holophonic. Wow. I haven't played this record in ages. Great recording.
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The Wall. Both sound great.
-- LDR
Pros - Clean, uncolored, transparent, lack of glare, rhythmically coherent, percussion sounded right. The helicopter sounded real and Water’s multi-tracked laugh sounded like Rog’s voice. The kids ethereal voices were more intelligible.
Cons - Flatter sounding. Instruments had less body.
-- Palladian
Pros - 3D space, instruments had a spacial feel about them like the were made of something tangible. Appearance of fine inner detail. You can feel the bass guitar strings twanging and the depth of the instrument from front to back. Nice. The kids' voices occupied space with reflected echoes adding to the detail but losing intelligibility.
Cons - Added a pale gold-colored haze. Music seemed less coherent and muddled. Listen to Waters laugh mentioned above. It sounds confused. Can't get the sense that the MC sounds processed out of my mind.
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I wish there was a Decca Reference with UP-OCC or silver wire and a beryllium "cantilever". (Although the Be might shatter!)
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I have three well-sorted Deccas and enjoy them. Recently, I bought an Audio Technica 750 with Shibata tip as it was highly recommended and I needed something for a second table. It does have seemingly better depth and sometimes more air. However, it is not as fast on transients as the Deccas. Consequently, when I do play a record with it, I feel as if something is fundamentally wrong with the presentation of the idea of the music. And, no matter what, I cannot use it for critical listening. I was going to send it back but...we collect things, and there's always background music!
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@halcro That’s disappointing. Are you certain it wasn’t a setup or record issue? I run all my Deccas on 2 lowly Jelco 850 12" and 9" (and a 12" 750 gimbal on another table) arms with knife-edge bearings (albeit good ones) and have no issues with mistracking.
Of course, now I’m second guessing my interpretation of mistracking!
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@frogman Ha! I actually edited my reply by adding in "slight" as I felt it was on the recording and not the fault of the cartridge. |
When are you going to try the London Reference on the
TT-101/FR?
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Listened to them on my headphones. The 6 is in a different league. More snap, air, drums have a reverb against back wall, rim shots audible, clearer diction, more slight sibilance (not necessarily a good thing but at least you can hear it- tracking?), louder. The 5 is muddy and dull. It's not even worth go on about it any further!
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FR-6SE sounds better on my half inch piezoelectric Optiplex micro PC speaker.
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The vinyl does sound damaged especially on the right channel. Decca sounds the most live and immediate with good depth although it really picks up that surface noise. MC almost sounds like there's dirt on the stylus. Azden is in between. |
Had a quick listen at the office on Sennheiser headphones. I can hear greatness in the London and lighter, sharper transients in the AS. I had a look over the other videos and see the London is in the FR66 on the Raven, all the time. As I mentioned above, and will stand corrected, the London is not performing at its best on that rig.
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I’ll listen later. But for now, I see the Decca is in the belt drive. Is this the same video we saw before? If so, it might explain the slight softness and lack of detail I heard. I think the Decca excels when in an idler (or perhaps a DD) with no damping (like springs or cork etc.) whatsoever.
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Looking forward to more comparisons. Frogman summed it up. Always a great read. Thanks for the compliment Halcro. I'm partial to your Ketty Lester Love Letters track. I was somewhat disappointed by the London Reference when you played it before. I know the Decca's style of presentation can be a little Garrardy but was surprised by the relatively low level of fine detail. My Super Gold with Reference diamond sounds better. Something I put down to losses in the recording. Maybe this time, it'll be better!
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Lawnmower? I remember that song. "Jacob, wake up!"Â
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Wonderful Harmonia Mundi record. The MM sounds great. On first listen, it sounded more fun to listen to. Bowed cello sounded purposeful and driven. It took three listens to appreciate the essential additional detail, sustain and decay of the (glass) bells and the snappier, spacious, colorful, playful percussion of sticks on rims by the Palladian to have the MC win it for me. I'm noticing a trend. The magnets are lively and free and make you wanna dance whilst the coils are detailed and precise.
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Glanz - nice open sound, free and loose of damping which give it a dynamic quality. Initially, it almost sounds better than the MC...
Palladian - nice open sound, I can feel that there is more control over the music. Bass is tighter and more delineated, In fact, this is how most of it sounds. Voice and piano are more controlled, more etched and consequently, more musical information is imparted.
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Interesting notes @frogman .Â
I'm recovering from illness so not able to listen through my digital rig.Â
By colored I mean that I can hear a color superimposed over the recording like a thin veil. I know it's probably an odd description and perception. Â Once I detect it in a setup, I hear it with every recording. Whether there are frequency response variations in the MM, I don't really notice on the phone but now I'm curious. Nevertheless, it sounds clearer and more live and exciting.
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On my phone. Simon and Garfunkle sound more live with the Victor. The MC sounds more colorful initially ...until it just sounds colored and somewhat recessed. The MM is like opening the windows and hearing the live sound.
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SPU Silver sounds thin and spluttery on much of the pipe blowing, especially in the higher frequencies.
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150 is clearer with more insight and I prefer it. There is something sweet and SPU Gold about the 180 though.
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How can we trust (or rate) all the various opinions espoused by HiFi journalists and Reviewers whose hearing abilities are unknown? Many years ago at a show in London, where they were demoing an Aragon system, I crossed paths with one Ken Kessler. I asked him how could anyone like that sound as it was rolled off, plodding, and simply dull. His reply knocked me. "That's the way music is supposed to sound." |
Maybe the change on VTF that noromance posted helps him but is not a very good advise to set the VTF lower than the manufacturer specs JW, the builder of London cartridges in the UK specs a VTF of 1.8g +/- 0.2g. Therefore 1.6g is perfectly fine. Thank you. |
Apologies for being on the lower rungs of the London hierarchy with a SG (with Decapod and LDR paratrace stylus).
I also have 2 other Decca cartridges. My application may not transfer to the LDR. Nevertheless, I run them all at 1.55-1.65 VTF and it opens them up so they really sing. If your rig and arm are good, you should have no tracking issues. I also find raising the back of the arm above parallel locks in focus. Try it. you might be surprised. |
@bydlo I load my Super Gold at 51k with Vishay bulk foil resistors. I love the sparkle. |
These guys are great. 5 string bass. |
I agree with both. The Shure is in between so that's a pick. The Glanz is lovely and smooth with a rich musicality. I'd have to go with the Victor due to its more neutral sound. |
My wife even heard the difference playing the phone on the table. Much the same as what @dover said. Nicer tone and easier to follow. Transient attack might be a little slower.
Interestingly, I prefer 47k on my lesser Deccas. Mostly because I love detail and the sound I get.Â
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