I own a pair of Legacy Whispers and have discovered many good and bad things about all of Legacy's speaker offerings and their design guidlines.
The good news:
Legacy's speakers seem to offer more bang for the buck in terms of thier quality of drivers, than anyone else out there. Additionaly, when you buy Legacys used, you really seem to be getting the most bang for the buck. I know of no other speaker manufacturer that offers more air moving bass
ability for the money.
The bad news:
Legacy has really blown it on a couple of design errors, which drastically effect the overall performance of their speakers. Most of their speakers are wired with horrible sounding green wiring, that looks like the original monster cable wire from 1981! (except in a green semi transparent jacket). I personally purchaced some of this wire from Legacy, to determine how it may be limiting my own personal speakers. To say that it was worse sounding than I ever imagined, is an understatement. With this in mind, you can tell that Legacy does not do their homework to refine their speaker designs.Additionaly, they are also a bit behind on understanding High end digital. Many of their shows, and even at their factory they demo their speakers with an extremely meager sounding Pioneer CD player, that has all of the typical difital problems (grainy highs, limited sound stage depth and mechanical sounding bass). They also use that horrible Green wire, hooked up to their speakers.
The above aformentioned oversights leads me to believe that Legacy is not truley aware of high end sound capabilites, and the various sonic refinements associated with carefull component and wire selection .
As a tweaker though, you can really "go to town" (as stated in another post) with a Legacy designed speaker. I think of it as a unfinished "platform", which with the design oversights fixed, cannot be touched at the price which they cost. (Remember, the drivers and the cabinets are first rate, so you have alot of "good" to work with).
This is my opinion and experience with Legacy. Think of them as good guys that just could produce killer products,
if they just were a little more informed. |
Thanks for the honest "review". Given the fact that you are an owner of their top of the line model, i would consider your point of view to be worth more than someone who does not own any of their products ( me, for example ). The "funny" thing is that both of our thoughts and findings run parallel to each other almost to a "T".
Something else that i forgot to mention is that the models that i have worked on / looked at had the mids and woofers "flush mounted" but the tweeters and supertweeters weren't. I found this VERY strange and believe that correcting this could REALLY smooth out the upper mids and treble. This may be what is causing some of the "peakiness" or "glare" that some people complain about with this product line.
Out of curiousity, have you rewired the speakers internally and if so, what did you use ??? Sean
> |
Ehider,
Just wondering, what type of wire did you change to in your speaker? If you did change wire, what sonic changes did you notice. I own a pair of their Focus and was thinking of upgrading the internal wire myself. |
I live in Chicago and went down to Springfield and visited the factory before my purchase. I own the Legacy Whispers. I have owned the Talon Audio Khorus, (Highly Moded) Infinity RS1b's, Speaker Art Clefs, Rush Sound Monument II's and various others at one point or another. I have also had the latest Avant Garde Duos (Horns) in my home for an Audition as well as listening to he Avalon Eidelons. I have also listened to the Martin Logan Statements(I think the 1st version of that speaker), Wilson Watt Puppies (5.1), Willson Baby Slamms (the one that costs $38,000.00).
Ok, all that to say that no other speaker I have ever come across can communicate the event like the Whispers. It is absolutely the finest speaker I have ever heard, and by a HUGE MARGIN. A buddy of mine had the $70,000 Wilsons delivered to his home for a live in demo, and then the Whispers. The Wilsons went back to the dealer and he now owns the Whispers, this is in fact where I first heard them. They are dynamic like no speaker I have heard before. Now having said all that, I will add that I also purchased 2 of the Legacy LFXtreme subs for very low end bass reinforcement. The Whispers go down to 22HZ, but without the subs, they wont kick you in the chest. The system sound so much like live music now it is downright puzzling. The guy I have mentioned is very wealthy and will jump on a plane in a minute to audition a sound system (around the world if need be, and has done so many times), he has listened to about 75 so far with everything from JM Labs Grand Utopias to probably anything else you can name. his statement was that nothing he has come accross can touch the Whisper. Check Legacy out, they are for real, they just don't advertise in Stereophile or pay off reviewers like some of the unamed bigger monikers out there.
Best regards,
Mike |
I have a five-speaker system with two Signature IIIs (front), two Mists (rear), one Silver Screen (center) and one Point One (sub), all powered by a B&K AVR507 Series 2 receiver. It required almost two years of listening to find the speakers I wanted and really liked. I burned a CD with various classical music tracks...movements of symphonies and string quartets as well as classical organ music...to use in listening to different kinds of speakers. The string quartets provided the most useful music to use in auditioning speaker systems because with only four instruments it was fairly "easy" to tell if the speakers sounded like the real thing. The overall system sound is absolutely awesome. Although I am a classical music buff, the most dramatic recording for demonstrating my system to friends is a surround sound DVD-Audio album from the Eagles called "Hell Freezes Over." The system also sounds terrific with surround sound for movies. One of the first movies I listened to was one of the later Terminator movies. The movie begins with a picture of the earth from space and a narrator talking about how machines took over the earth. I had the volume too low to hear the narrator well so I turned it up. About this time a rocket streaked toward the earth and exploded! The subwoofer had so much power that my wife, who was in another room, thought we had just had a earthquake. So, while the system is very musical it also can play pop music and sound tracks exceedingly well. I just wish I had space to use two more Sig III for my rear channels. |
Many years ago, I worked hard to get my Sig IIIs to satify, from switching preamps, to amps, and finally gave up. Always sounded PRETTY good, just not satisfying. The bass was fast, but couldn't integrate properly with the kevlar mid. Then I though I need more smooth power, went for Muse Monoblocks, then Classe, both with no succeess - just not a musical whole. The best amp I used driving them was an older Forte, with a tube preamp. Still disconnected sound but it finally had a leading edge the other amps didnt provide. They may have improved some over the years, and I think the Whisper is hi fi, but the others down the line count for mid-hi fi to me.. |
I agree with Mikeam on the sound coming out of my Whispers. Its pretty special and I have no desire to upgrade internal wiring or anything else like that. I have also owned Focus and currently own Focus 20/20s which are operating as rears in my setup. The 20/20s offer a fuller sound than the older Focus, but nowhere near the detail, transparency, soundstage and sense of air around the instruments conveyed by the Whispers. The Whispers will reveal upstream problems pretty ruthlessly, but in a clean, highly resolving system, which I've finally pretty much achieved, the sound is tremendous.
The only nit to pick involves the Steridian equalizer, which was/is pretty much of a design nightmare. It has been discontinued in favor of an outsourced, much more expensive equalizer, from my understanding. In addition, the old Tech Support guys(Chris, et al) are gone, as well as Bob Howard, so there's no telling what kind of support is available.(Fortunately, I haven't need any after finally sorting out a Steridian problem a number of months ago.) |
fOCUS 20/20'S are the best speakers Ive ever owned. Beat my Martin Logans Ascent i's in almost every area, including most important, musicality and musical enjoyment! |
The largest music company in the world ( UMG ) has Legacy speakers in it's show room in NYC ( as of last June ). The questions or issues with the older speakers is a moot point now. If you have the older line there are those here who can help get them to sound best.
The new HD line has set Legacy back on the map again in respects to the demanding change in HD audio and video.
Legacy has changed everything.... it's drivers, cabinet design and internal and external hardware. They even ship you your speakers covered in a black velvet bag.
I am on my 3rd set of Legacy speakers. I can tell you that there is a NEW "house sound". Worth a listen. |
I listen to the new Focus HD's and these have to be the best kept secret on the market today! I think they are the best bang for the buck that I have ever seen on the market so far. They just came out with a Focus SE model that is said to be even better! |
Legacy took the cabinet design of the new Classic HD and made the Focus SE plus stronger bracing with some wiring and tweaking. More than one customer has suggested that the SE Focus should be the new HD model and drop the box design. |
Legacy rocks! All this and a 10 year warranty! |
09-18-08: Sthomas12321
Legacy rocks! All this and a 10 year warranty! There is no doubt that Legacy rocks....and does it very well. I lived with Legacy speakers for over 13 years, so I know. However, as I aged (DAMMIT!!!!), I also found my musical tastes changed too. I became more interested in listening to jazz, blues and folk (vocals). Since that time, I have found speakers that perform better in the midrange than the Legacy speakers do. However, they are still my top recommended speakers for rockers! Cheers, John |
Jmcgrogan, it's interesting how your preference in music changed, along with your equipment. I think this is pretty common. Do you recall your rig when you had the Legacy's in it, and your rig now? It would be interesting for us to see them both listed, to have an example of what you're talking about. You obviously have been in search of a rich midrange. What did you put together as far as a system to satisfy your change in musical taste? |
Hello Douglas_schroeder...or should I just call you Doug?
Great question! I would say that through most of my years with the Legacy's (2+, 1's, Focus) I used SS amplification. Many big names here, PS Audio 200c, Classe CA-200, Threshold T-400...etc.
As my tastes started to change, first I went to Vienna Acoustics Beethovens, and then the Strauss. Now I'm using Verity Audio Parsifal Encore's that are heavily modified. I've also switched from SS amplification to tube amplification. At my peak I was using a BAT VK-75SE that was highly modified (and also currently for sale). I am now downsizing due to family and economic reasons, and I've gone to a used VAC Avatar Super integrated amp.
I also plan to sell my analog rig, but I will not get out of analog totally, just downsize. I love it now, but did not do analog through my Legacy years (1987-2001). I'm also using a Marantz SA-11S1 w/ Ultimate mods from pcX for digital.
Hopefully this answers all of your questions, but please feel free to ask more if need be.
Cheers,
John |
Jmcgrogan2
I listen to jazz on my focus 20/20's, when I said Legacys rock, I was using the meaning, they are awesome.
I am a proffesional saxophone player, and love great music, old jazz, modern jazz, R&B, blues, funk, you name it. I also love to hear ballads.
At least in my setup, my focus 20/20's make beautiful music. I actually find them to be specially good at smooth jazz recordings. Modern recordings sound rediculous, while even bad recordings arent to bad. I for one feel the opposite then some on here. A expensive speaker should make all music sound its best, not just good recordings. Ive owned these types of speakers, and I just dont get why anyone would only want to get good sound out of 5% of there collection. I also actually find my 20/20's to sound better with good recordings then every other speaker Ive owned besides maybe, and I stress maybe, the martin logan ascent i's I had. But without a sub, the legacys still destroy the ascent i's even with good recordings. (The logans sounded horrible with bad recordings and have terrible bass output, that also seams to have a little phase issue's.)
On top of everything, the focus 20/20's have been easy to place in 3 different rooms so far. My Logan Ascent i's would have taken forver, and no matter where they were placed there was always one area that was weak. |
WHen my musical tastes started changing away from mostly rock, I went from the Legacy Focus20/20 to the Whispers. It was about midway through my my "Whisper Stage" (apx 18 mos.) that I also went from SS(McCormack DNA-500) to tube (VAC Phi 300.1) amplification, having always used a tubed preamp). I found that the tubes gradually made me search for even more resolution and better imaging as my musical preferences continued to broaden yet my expectations continued to rise.
I then got introduced to Von Schweickert speakers and now my speaker journey is over, at least for the forseeable future. I had to pay a LOT more money to get that extra performance I was after. I guess my point here is that the Whispers shouldn't be ignored by those wishing to upgrade from the Focus - they are also excellent speakers and better than most people realize. The weakest part during my ownership was the Steridian equalization box, but I believe that has been resolved by Legacy with a new 3rd-party piece. Hope this helps your decision-making.
P.S. - I still have my 20/20's - they are now being used as rear speakers for my home theater. |
what you just explained is the major reason why legacy is a
good midrange speaker but can never be anything more for the Xover components IMO are at best average Solen capacitors is nothing to brag about = to a ford focus in a car, cabinets nothing special as to their design ,no magico, and the drivers average at best Eton ,the tweeter Noname brand probably Taiwan, a solid mid range perfomer Newer companys such as the Vapor Cirrus or Salk soundscape are far more refined with much better quality drivers and parts and still avoid the 50% dealers markup.I also keep this in mind when purchasing and great customer services I have both so know first hand and have been in audio for some 30 years and spent more than a home on Hifi.I have heard most everything out there and Only comment on what I have heard
first hand. |
Audioman....you may want to listen to the current stuff coming from Legacy and your perspective may change.....drastically..... |
Yes the Legacy's have really improved. Mr. Duddleston's work with the Xilica crossover is a game changer. Whisper, Helix, and the new Aeris, don't ave to apologize to anyone. |
I couldn"t agree more with Sgr.& ,Cutler.
Bill Duddleston is a true visionary and what you listen to now will no doubt be different in two years down the road.
Anyone who thinks room correction is fad is only kidding themselves.
I have said this before and can't stress enough on the importance of having the speakers dialled to the room by a qualified tech.
Yes you can attempt it and Legacy will help get you there but the anguish is not worth the effort.
The techs do this on regular basis compared to the audiophile doing it once maybe twice.
I like the car analogy.... who would even attempt doing a tuneup on current model car without the proper engine analysis equipment?
IMHO room correction is no different.
How many cars are not using sophisticated electronic controls?None
As for tubes been there done that and not going back having had the pleasure of experiencing Coda's new 7X.
Pound for pound dollar for dollar there simply aren't many better values than lLegacy period! |
Tobb: You could not be more right about your last statement regarding the pound for pound and dollar for dollar analogy on Legacy speakers and what Bill D. brings to the table for all of us who truly love listening to musical and exciting speakers. I've owned several generations of Legacy speakers since 2006 for 7.1 and 5.1 home theater + 2-channel and since moving to pure 2-channel in 2008-2009, I have centered my entire system on Focus HDs followed by my current Focus SEs that I've had since March 2010. With proper speaker, interconnect and power cables on my system, I have been able to extract sound out of my Focus SEs that vastly exceeds any expectations I could have had and also eclipses many more vaunted and expensive speakers and setups i have heard in various venues over the last 7 years. The entire line of speakers is special in what they deliver and the value that comes with Legacy's realistic pricing. As of the last 6 months or so I've had the good fortune to spend 4 listening sessions with the new Aeris, 2 with the latest Whispers and 1 with Helix. I am now contemplating my next multi-year speaker and it is looking to be AERIS (or the potential for Whisper with integrated subs) so the fun continues! |
Zeph are you interested in a a pair of Helix? |
No I am not but thank you for asking...I think I know the pair you may be offering and believe they are the pair I heard in STL(?). Regardless, I loved how they sounded and what they did but I do not want to embark on a path that commits me to all that additional speaker weight (have to reinforce floor joists in 2nd floor listening room for best effect with a speaker of that mass) and 6 channels of amplification plus subs to give them a proper home. Thank you for offering.... |
Umm not St. Louis but no worries!
And not six channels but four.
These are the forerunners to the upcoming offering and only one pair were built. |
Just for the record Zeph or for those who may be concerned,
the difference between the Aeris and Helix is only 10% or 10 lbs per sqft.
That and why do you need subs with Helix when Whispers with subs are close to the Helix? |
Tobb: Thanks for letting me know these are not the pair from STL (I put '(?)' as I was not sure). I am confused on one point however and that is the spec. for AERIS is similar to Focus SE (around the 200 lb) mark and the Helix is listed at 320 lbs per side. How is this only a 10% difference?
Please also look at my post where I said that I would have to reinforce floor joists in MY 2nd floor listening room 'for best effect'; I meant two things, (1) that much has to do with how my room is constructed currently and (2) for BEST effect I would do it, not because it is mandatory.
Thanks for letting me know that only 4 channels are needed and not 6. I thought I had seen 2 pair (1 on Audiogon and one under review posted online) with 6 channels of amplification, one of them using a very expensive array of Wavac tube amps; so if I've made a mistake viz. the current design of the speaker, it was definitely unintentional! Your for-sale ad lists 3 pair of binding post per speaker so it might help to list out the options for amplification be it 4 or 6 for any prospective buyer.
Insofar as subs, I wondered the same thing myself but the last owner of Helix I spoke with and listened to them in his home stood by the fact that subs were best. At any rate, I had no intention of introducing confusion here.
Thanks again! Where are you located? If your Helix are the forerunner(...) I may fly up and take a listen. |
They are in LA.
As for the 10% its based on weight per sq ft.
Helix has a large foot print than Aeris.
I'd have to check on the biding posts as these were a special pair hence the four channel. |
Thanks Tobb....that makes sense. Have a great day! |
@ Zeph its two pair binding posts |
Thanks Tobb, looks like 4-channels are needed in the current build generation. The ones online with 6-channels of Wavac amplification, etc...that I saw must have been custom build or 1st generation. |
They previously were 6 channel.
The new offering will be 4 channel.
This was the prototype pair for the new offering.
Anyhow someone will get a terrific deal!
Price includes setup with a factory tech.
The reason why I get a little annoyed when people tell me they have heard any of the current offerings in Aeris, Whisper or Helix is that it's utter nonsense. Until they are set in the listeners environment by a factory trained tech they have heard jack.
Been there done that with Whispers XDs.
Its like turning the lights on or digital before and after a great DAC.
They are set to a flat line the only thing better is if have
an anechoic chamber and not many have the cash for one of them.
The active Legacies literally remove the room from the equation when set properly.
It doesn't matter if the room is a 16 x 24 or a 12 x12.
The tech spends about a full day doing this. |
Tobb: While I agree with you that you ultimately will not know what an active speaker truly sounds like until it is dialed into the room that is to be its home, I do not agree that if you hear something in a demo environment (where the speaker is properly dialed in) that it is 'utter nonsense'.
The same point can be made for any speaker or for any component for that matter in that you never truly know what a pair of passive speakers would do either until you get them into the room where they will live and hear them properly setup and broken in with the full list of components, cables, power, etc...that will drive them.
Good multi-hour, well thought out and personal source-material driven, demo listening sessions serve a certain amount of good in that you know if the speaker MAY be one that you would like but its impractical to think that we should skip these experiences (not what you said above, I realize....) as they would be useless in terms of time, effort and what we hear.
Having sat through the dialing in sessions on Aeris and Whisper several times with Legacy and helping friends dial in a pair of Whispers and Helix, I definitely agree that a great calibration and dialing-in session with the new processor does wonders and can make these speakers sound great in any room!
Thanks for all the info on the pair of speakers you are selling and your experiences in the more general sense. Can you send me an Audiogon in-mail with a phone number where I can contact you? Thanks! |
