Grand Prix Monaco review in new Stereophile- OUCH

The goal was and is always, with any review, to make the product under review sound as good as it possibly can within the context of the review system. Of course VTA was carefully adjusted. And while I'm at it, I understand there are some IDIOTIC rumors floating around (based on a reader's email) that the Graham Phantom did not contain damping fluid. Of course it did. Who could have made such a ludicrous assertion? The Graham, which I own, was taken from the Continuum's second armboard and installed on the Monaco. The VTA obviously had to be readjusted to take into account the difference in platter height (etc.). Also, according to this reader, some yentas are asserting that my relationship with the folks at Continuum affected the review. So let's see: I attended Harry Weisfeld's son's Bar Mitzvah, I attended the funeral of his other son (the one for whom the JMW Memorial arm was named) and consider Harry Weisfeld a closer friend than I do the guys from Continuum, but somehow, after reviewing the Simon Yorke S7, I sold my TNT and bought the Yorke, though I had never met Simon Yorke at that point in time. You know what? There are some real idiots in this hobby. So let me reiterate. I LISTENED TO THE MONACO AND WROTE WHAT I HEARD. That's what I do every time, all the time. I separate the products from the people. It's essential to do that. Unfortunately, there are too many reviewers who can't do that, so they end up writing frothy, chummy reviews of every product they get in. Never a bad word. Why bother reading such reviews when you can read professional advertising copy or a publicist's hand out?

well i haven't heard the caliburn but it;s would be typical of fremer to like because it is one of, if the not the, most expensive tables on the market. It may not be a great table or it may be. But, i'd be curious is head to head it was better than a walker, galibier,teres, forsell or whatever...

I think people take these subjective reviews too seriously. Look at the "glowing" subjective review the same guy gave the Zanden Transport/DAC in Stereophile's November 2006 issue, and that thing measured terribly...

If this thread hasn't set a record for the most postings in a week, I'd like to know what has. "Desperate Housewives" and "Dancing With The Stars" must be eating their hearts out.

Personally, I looked past the subjective opinions, and ordered an accelerometer and charge amplifier today. It will help me refine the sound that I HEAR. Sounds that others hear direct me, but don't restrict me, to what I'll lay my dollars down and buy.

Hey Ken,

If you tell Mike Fremer about your cool '55 Chevy, maybe he would fly out and show you how to use the accelerometer.

Good thing I included the word "ouch" in the subject if this thread.

Michael, have you listened to the Phantom without damping fluid?

There seems to be a US vs. Europe attitude towards the fluid.

Folks here practically called my dealer lazy for not including the fluid in the setup, while others on a forum that has more Europeans basically said very few over there use it. Thomas Woshnik doesn't suggest it for use with his tables. I have their cheap crappy little mickey mouse model Raven One, (that what it looks like when viewed from directly above - a mouse face and ears.)

ALso any thought to doing a setup proceedure for the Phantom arm?
I always thought your DVD should have had a link included to a website where additional setups could be viewed (for purchasers of the DVD)

Since I'm in tv/video, I might even be able to help you facilitate such a thing (I'm in NYC).

As to the Phantom fluid usage.......Since I am close to upgrading my Graham 2.2 to a Phantom the subject of NOT using fluid perplexed me.I am very familiar with the huge differences even the most minute amounts of fluid impact the 2.2's performance(I am talking pinhead amounts,and have been at this for years,on this arm).
My friend has just upgraded his 2.2 to the Phantom,and "it"(Phantom) is not as sensitive to fluid as the 2.2.Yet,it still "definitely" benefits from fluid usage! You MUST be VERY careful about finding the "perfect" amount,for a given cartridge's energy!This will NOT take one listening session if you are exacting!
I called Bob Graham recently,as I had some questions regarding set-up.The fluid issue came up in the conversation(as did the titanium arm tube option,which he thinks is the equal of the ceramic,and a matter of taste).
As to the fluid usage...his feelings, on non usage was that the arm "sounded quite good,surprisingly,with no fluid,but that does NOT mean it should not be used"(his words). He has not done an A/B comparison,with fluid,and
based on my own experience with my friend's Phantom(he has the same Transfiguration Orpheus cartridge as me)I will definitely use the fluid.
This could be cartridge dependent,but the Phantom definitely likes fluid with the Orpheus in use.Small increments STILL affect sonics BIG TIME!
Hope this helps.
Good luck.

I ,for one, appreciate Mikey's personal response on this forum. I certainly would not want to be subjected to this scrutiny.

I think there can be way too much ego(nobody in particular,btw)in this hobby,and very obvious on these numerous threads.
I see this in all the little "groupings" in my audio circles.You know...the tube vs SS clubs,or the high mass vs suspended table clicks,or particular cartridge lovers/defenders,etc,etc.Everyone wants to voice an educated opinion(I'm no exception).Sometimes just to offer up "something" that will stick,and maybe get some thread time.
Here,to my surprise(a pleasant one)we had a well known hobbyist/reviewer,make a "series" of interesting posts about an interesting product,which developed into varied subjects.Still intriguing,to a good extent.
What this ultimately morphed into,and it really became kind of ludicrous,was the very typical "ego fest",with many folks questioning a "good natured" original series of responses by Mike Fremmer.
I doubt his heart was "not" in the right place!To me,all his responses were to be explanitive of his review.Then defensiveness set in,and "here" it was uncalled for.The hobbyist ego thing again(not Fremmer's ego either).Too many "I know alot,and want someone to know it too" posters,diluting a well intended series of posts by a well known person in our hobby,who truly seemed to be good natured and wanting to be helpful.AND did not have to!
What good could come out of baiting and questioning every action involved in a complex review process?I have been at this for four decades,and could not/would not want to perform such "pain in the ass" procedures.Just listening is way too much fun for me.
Do we think the forums on Audiogon would be more interesting if a reviewer,like Fremmer,did not even bother to contribute something?
Would all us simple hobbyist types(to different degrees)be more happy just kicking around the same stuff we always do,without input from the "guys" we all like to read......and be critical of(in private) to our own audio friends -:) We all do it!-:)
Yet,when said high profile folks are "NICE" enough to chime in(in this case "alot",and more than he should have,due to the stupid "contrarians" out there,IMO)with only good spirited intentions,it does not seem to be such a stretch to at least "want" more of this in the future!At least I would.
I doubt this will happen,much to this extent,in the future.Deservedly so!!
Now we can all go about posting the same repetitive,uninteresting stuff I've been following for some time!
Sorry for the rant,but I feel better now!
Best to all.

BTW, I didn't realize Groovy is Fremer (I didn't read the thread until after I commented on the initial post). I wasn't intending to be antagonistic. I just feel with some devices subjective experiences are too open to change depending on many factors (what kind of mood the person is in, their health, the weather, etc).

To be honest, I don't really read much of the equipment reviews nowadays, unless I own the piece, except for speaker reviews because those have easily identifiable differences in character that make the subjective reviews more valid IMO.

Turntables and their associated components (phonostage, cartridge, tonearm) certainly have more identifiable character than a CD player or amp (etc) IMO, but still less so than a speaker (unless the TT and associated components are exceptionally bad in design...).

Great post Sirspeedy. I was one of the people that wrote Mike a personal email, thanking him for contributing to Audiogon.

It does not matter if I or others agree with the review, what's important is his position in the audio community and his willingness to take time out of his incredibly busy schedule to help us.

I think you're right about everyone wanting their opinions heard, perhaps even to the extent of challenging Mike (who is a big target).

Again, that's why my only other contribution on this topic was joking with Ken to share his classic automobile with Mike Fremer.

I hope we have not run him off.

Mr. Fremer, it was my understanding that you kept the Halcyonics Micro 40 isolation platform after the review was completed. IMO that platform would have been an excellent support for the Monaco table.

Perhaps you had already returned the Micro 40 by the time the Monaco table came along. I believe that the US distributor for Halcyonics is in your area. If you do write a followup to the review, the Micro 40 would certainly be a choice worth considering. I have tried a Micro 40 sitting on a GP stand to support an EMM transport. The results were very audible and positive. Perhaps they would be in the GPM application as well.

Great post Sirspeedy, you said what I meant far more eloquently than I possibly could have!

I returned the Halcyonics stand as I do all gear I don't buy. I have no doubt that Halcyonics made a difference....

It's "grooves" but of course it's all "subjective" and dependent upon many factors. Those are givens. However, do this long enough and get it wrong too many times and you've got no credibility. In Stereophile you write your "subjective" (I prefer "observational") impressions and then there are measurements. When it comes to speakers I try to predict what the measurements reveal and I have a pretty good track record in that regard. There should be more information in reviews than just subjective sonic opinions and there usually are in the good ones, including information that's valuable when considering a purchase.

I don't mind the bit**ing or the personal attacks. It's unfortunate, but part of the territory. Instead, you should visit the Wall Street Journal and look up a piece by a guy named Terry Teachout about "deaf audiophiles." This guy is dangerous and is deserving of a well written (not nasty) email. His address is there. The guy hates us and has been at it for quite some time.

Constructive criticism is always welcome but how many times do people complain that reviewers "never say anything negative" and then when they do, they complain about them too!!!!

The Monaco turntable is something everyone should spend some time listening to. It's strong suits may outweight the negative ones for you, or you may not hear the negatives I pointed out at all. Also remember that reviews put products under a microscope and when that's removed some of the problems diminish in size....

It's important to point them out though because short term you might not hear them but long term (once you plunk down yer money) you might! A reviewer's job is to find those "issues" quickly and point them out...at least that's how I see my job.....

the fluid amount has to do with critical damping and the critical damping will for the most part be dependent upon the weight of the cartridge and its compliance. Underdamping will usually cause the sound to be brighter and 'faster,' overdamping will make it sluggish-sounding, thick and sometimes dark and veiled. Yes, this is an important consideration...

I'm not sure why Thomas doesn't suggest damping fluid with his 'table. The arm's physical performance shouldn't be dependent upon the 'table used, though the sonic combination is another issue. A few people complained "why didn't you set up an SME V, why didn't you set up a Triplanar," etc. I tried to set up a popular inexpensive 'table (Pro-Ject) that allows for most set up parameters, and one that didn't (Reg) plus a unipivot (VPI), the idea being the old "teach a guy to fish" parable. I felt that the VPI unipivot instructions would translate easily to the Graham.....

Zanden measurements and subjective reviews? Yes, the Zanden I first got not only measured poorly, it was actually wired incorrectly at the factory and was therefore defective. However, it still sounded incredibly inviting. Mesmerizing actually. Why? I'm not sure. However, if you're interested in measurements as a guide for what's worth buying, surely you've given up on vinyl quite some time ago. Compared to CDs, vinyl SUCKS if you go by the commonly used measurements.....measurements are worthwhile generally and very useful for the most part, but if you let yourself get led around by the nose by measurements and just measurements, you'll end up in a very bad place.....as you will if you totally ignore them!

"Mothra" wrote: "but it;s would be typical of fremer to like because it is one of, if the not the, most expensive tables on the market."

That's silly my Japanese monster friend. I owned an relatively modestly priced Simon Yorke S7 for years and chose to not replace is with many far more expensive turntables that I reviewed. I reviewed the new $28,000 NAIM CD player and didn't feel it sounded all that different than my $7000 reference. I wonder on what basis you made the "typical" statement? Believe me, buying the Caliburn, even at an "accommodation" price was/is a big sacrifice. I am still paying it off. Another Caliburn owner I spoke with previously owned a Walker. He read my review and since he couldn't hear one before buying had to rely upon what I wrote. Talk about pressure! Was he happy with his purchase after doing a direct comparison? Absolutely. Another guy bought one and complained to me about my review at the HE2006 show in Los Angeles. He told me my review was misleading. Why? Because he felt after buying the turntable that I had 'held back' and that the Caliburn was far better than I let on. He also owns a Ferrari and says the Caliburn is his favorite purchase. I don't own a Ferrari but I agree with him. It's my favorite purchase ever too. Another buyer who writes for TAS came up to here mine and then bought his. You can be cynical but you should hear the Caliburn under good conditions. Unfortunately the sound at most of the shows has been poor but not because of the 'table.

That last piece was worth more advertising dollars for Continuum than a double full size page in that Wall Street journal mentioned before. Excellent sales pitch! And there you have it.

11-13-07: Mtkhl567 wrote:
"That last piece was worth more advertising dollars for Continuum than a double full size page in that Wall Street journal mentioned before. Excellent sales pitch! And there you have it."

Yes, this is from a Monaco TT owner. So.... nothing strange here.

Just to elaborate on my prior post.

I too love the audiophile world, as opposed to the Wallstreet Journal reviewer mentioned, and don't think there is a more worthy cause to push for than listening to great music through a great system (that is, besides eradicating famine or child abuse in the world). And we audiophile customers the world over want/need true independent reviewers that give us an indication of product performance of various brands.

I do dislike the often invisible politics behind the equipment review process, manufacturers and the intermingling of commercial interests that happens all too often, and I think it taints the review process. How can you as a reviewer when you are comparing two turntables, state your independent opinion when you in fact obtained an "accommodating price" for one of them. You can't. In fact by paying (or paying off in this case) an "accommodating price" you are in fact saying that you would not have purchased it at the customary price. Hence not buying into its value proposition. So if your not paying a company the normal margin it's asking for, you have to pay with something else. Something like your posts above.

This post is not to take away the tremendous contributions that Mr Fremer has made to the audiophile review business in the past and in the future. There can be no doubt about that. But in the case of the Monaco tt Stereophile review and the content of this ensuing thread is evidence of the apparent controversy and indicative of much that goes on in the equipment review world.

"accommodating price" you are in fact saying that you would not have purchased it at the customary price. Hence not buying into its value proposition."

I disagree. Mike, compares all products value to him at "accommodating" prices, hence they are all on the same playing field.

BTW, why are so many in this thread disrespectful referring to Mike as "Mikey", as you would a 10 year old? Are you trying to put him in his place?

Does anyone or Mike, remember a review Mike gave to a 20-30k turntable a year or so ago that he pretty much slammed?
I remember after reading that review thinking to myself that that company will be out of business in a year, as it was so brutal. At that time their was no public debate about that review. Why all this debate about the Monaco? Is it self interest?

Mtkhl567, Do you really mean to say that the pursuit of a fine audio system takes third place to eliminating famine and child abuse as worthy goals? See, that's the problem here. What about the mess in the Middle East, the gradual collapse of the US economy due to globalization, HIV, pandemic flu, global warming, etc, etc, etc? Audio and the music that good audio systems reproduce is merely a nice hobby to take our minds off such vexing problems, but only momentarily I hope. Relax; you should not need Mr Fremer or anyone else to validate your purchasing decision.

By the way, given the cost of the Continuum Caliburn, I don't think advertising is relevant or needed. The megabuckers who have the dough will find it or be led to it by their advisors or by MF's passion for it. All the advertising in the world could not get the vast majority to fork over $120,000 for a turntable/tonearm/stand.

Dlanselm,

FYI "Mikey" is Michael's well known moniker made famous to all here but you in the pages of Stereophile by its editor.

...and I agree completely with your assessment of Mtkhl567's remark. It is this slanted assumption of cynicism, only sometimes warranted and ususally not to the extent implied, that taints so many many posts here and wastes our precious time and energy. ...with all due respect to those who feel compelled to pass on their bitterness in this way.

I sincerely meant no disrespect for Michael Fremer in my calling him "Mikey" in a previous post. Pied Piper's assessment is right on the mark as well as Dlanselm's.

Dlanselm, no not every manufacturer provides an accommodating price to professional equipment reviewers. One of those is called Grand Prix Audio. It begs the question why a manufacturer would do that...other than get a favorable (re)view in return, certainly not out of charity. Why this review. Well, its MF controversial review details that sparked this debate, and fueled by same.

Lewn, you hit the nail on the head, MF view goes a long way in this industry, like Dlanselm says, may make or break companies. Not GPA though, too many other respected reviewers the world over with opposite opinion. MF and his controversial review stand alone in the professional reviewer world, why else do you think he on this thread in defense of his review? Especially the last 7 posts in a row should leave nobody in doubt about how things work in this business!

Keep spinning those records,
Henry

at least fremer knows what he likes. many in this hobby just spend money for the sake of 'just that'..'spending money'. the 'to each his own' logic will always prevail(rightfully so), but its easier and easier to see the true value (and genius) of vintage designs(and their competitive performance), today more than ever. in the context of new products only, a dd shootout between the monaco and the new denon 1300 would be fun for some...and sobering for others.

Jaybo, I can't find a Denon 1300 turntable anywhere on the web, not even at Denon USA's web site.

A DP 1300mkII.. big brother of the 500m..its only being sold in japan at the moment, but can be exported through several retailers, and is coming officially to the states in 2008. an interesting return for denon to a competitive high end table, and inexpensive relative to just about everything.

Mtkhl567, When I opined that you did not need Mike Fremer's approval to validate your purchase, I was not intending to denigrate MF's opinion so much as to let you know that I think you are/were over-reacting to it. Mike has said here and elsewhere over and over again that he recommends we evaluate for ourselves the products he reviews, using his experiences only as a touchstone. He did not and probably would not say that you were "wrong" to buy the GPM, is all I meant. Anyway, I'd love to hear either table in a good home system, along with a Walker to compare to both. Not many folks will ever get such an opportunity, so Mike's work is of great value but should be taken with a "grain of salt". Dealer venues and audio shows don't tell us much.

Lewn, I agree with you on the enjoyment and purpose of this great hobby. I just think we should not all behave as if the politics, that I illuded to, are not going on.

You can do one of two things, close your eyes or speak up and say something about it. Wherever there are commercial interests involved there will be consideration in exchange for opinion from reviewers. In such a world those with the strongest sense of ethics will be the ones that deserve the most respect. Alvin Lloyd is one of those persons.

I know this may be a topic that spans much more than Mr Fremers GPM review, and unfortunately is widespread within the business, putting large questionmarks around much that is reviewed today.

Mtkhl567, I don't want to start a confrontation with you, I did the photography for Grand Prix, the same images used in Fremer's review.

I like Alvin Lloyd a lot, they don't get much better than him, we had a few days together getting the images of the Grand Prix table and I already use his stands under my amps.

Cut to the chase, do you really think Mike Fremer could not get ANY EQUIPMENT made at a deep discount? There are Audiogon members with connections that get great deals, imagine what one of the most influential writers in high end audio can get.

Point I'm making, he would not sabotage his career for a deal on equipment. It's just too damn easy for him to get whatever he wants anyway.

PLEASE do not confuse my argument with taking sides for or against the Grand Prix table. I have too little experience with it to argue but suspect Mike Fremer is speaking the truth, even if his taste and experience does not agree with you or others here at Audiogon.

Imagine if the review had been a rave for Evolution Acoustics, would you think he was being bribed to say they were good?

I should add here, I have never so much have been offered a soft drink by J. Tinn and I awarded him product of the year last November at PFO for the MM3.

Was that OK, or was it a wink and a nod from Tinn that made me do it?

11-15-07: Jaybo
A DP 1300mkII.. big brother of the 500m..its only being sold in japan at the moment, but can be exported through several retailers, and is coming officially to the states in 2008. an interesting return for denon to a competitive high end table, and inexpensive relative to just about everything.

I've found a couple of listings for this turntable, one at AudiocubesII and another on eBay from a vendor in Japan. I notice from the specs that the unit weighs about 10 lbs. more than the DP 500M, and the tonearm is 244mm vs. 230 for the DP 500M.

Does anyone know what else accounts for the DP-1300mkII's 3-times-the-price of the DP-500M?

The tonearm is also dual-gimbal S-shaped with detachable headshell, but is longer. Any other info on how it might be different? Damped? Optimized for today's low-medium compliance cartridges?

I'll bet this turntable with the Zu Audio DL-103 cartridge would just KILL!

Here's the Japanese Web page for the DP-1300MKII:

http://denon.jp/company/release/dp1300mk2.html

I ran it through Babelfish and it still doesn't make it clear what the differences are from the DP-500M. In fact, the picture is clearly identical, as are most of the specs. Could it be it's the same turntable, just with a different model number? Maybe Denon is taking the true audiophile path and differentiating the turntable on price alone.

:-)

David

Actually, here's the real answer:

http://denon.jp/company/release/dp1300_500.html

Run through Babelfish, it outlines a better DD motor, better tonearm with upgraded wiring, and bigger, heavier base.

Two interesting things: the release date for both the DP-1300 and the DP-500 was 2003; funny we're only hearing about the 1300 now. Also, the price in yen at the time of release was only about double, and now it's clearly triple.

David

Maybe Denon is taking the true audiophile path and differentiating the turntable on price alone.
:-)

I know from your smiley face that you're kidding, but there may be some substantial differences for the 1300 to weigh 10 lbs more than the 500.

In English, here are the specs for the DP 500M at Needledoctor: http://www.needledoctor.com/Denon-DP-500M-Turntable?sc=2&category=348

And here are the specs for the DP-1300mkII at AudioCubes II: http://www.audiocubes2.com/category/Turntables/product/Denon_DP-1300MKII_Analog_Turntable.html

As you can see, the 1300's arm is 14mm (.6") longer and the turntable's overall weight is 4.5KG (9.9 lbs) heavier. I'm hoping that the arm is a newer design to accommodate today's cartridges. It definitely uses a different counterweight. The extra length should reduce tracking angle a bit. If you look closely at the pictures of the two, the arm base on the 1300 is further away from the platter.

It also appears that the 1300 has a nicer wood veneer finish with a more prominent grain and chamfered edges and corners.

Johnnyb53,

See my links in the posts just before yours...all is revealed by Denon...lots of differences, actually...

David

I don't want to be a spoil sport, but this thread is not about a low to mid-price Denon tt; it is about sturm and drang over a review and the reviewer of megabuck (almost hypothetical due to cost) tt's in a magazine. Carry on.

My loss for never trying a Denon, turntable that is, and here is a quote from a Japanese website from a well known (?) equipment reviewer who gave it a:

☆DR.IGARASHI　今日のBeer指数　90％ !!☆

I like the beer reference here, and 90% is not bad for a dd tt that claims the same speed accuracy as the GPA Monaco: 0.002%!!! I wonder where the Monaco or the Continuum ranks in their world ...

Lewn, a low-mid priced tt is currently defined as in the $1-2000 range? What are we squandering our hard earned money on...

Keep smiling :-) when you spin those records!