Atmosphere,I had a Triplanar,and know how good(really so)it is for setting azimuth.In my post,I specifically stated all was "only my opinion".Also,the issue of bearing stability,as how it pertains to maintaining azimuth,with the Phantom/Magna Glide feature,is as good as it gets,IMO!Dead perfect,regardles of warps,AND on those warps the VTF IS maintained,where-as my other Unipivot(I don't know about a ball race bearing,but wonder if vtf is maintained on a warp there)would not do this!
Also,what I was alluding to was the number of contact points in the "all important bearing area"(to have "none" would certainly trump a very good one,no?).The Phantom has only "one",stabilized differently than all other unipivots!Logic would dictate that no matter how good a ball race design is,if it has more contact points than an equally well designed arm with fewer contact points,like the Phantom,"IT" would not sound as good.Also,obviously all other parameters are important,and I mentioned this,but alot of the best arms address the "bearing resonance issue",which attributes,big time,to the ultimate cost of that product.
I must assume all ball race gimballs have more than that,so the potential for resonances would seem more likely with those types.One reason I feel the other arms,like the Schroders/Linear-air line types sound so good.I'd put them above the Phantom.
This is all not to dismiss the fact that many(including me)like arms like the Triplanar,so there is no point looking at my post as some kind of "knock" to those types of arms.I was just killing time,as I was home sick. I felt I gave a "relatively decent" arguement in favor of some other type of bearing systems(other than a ball race,multi contact point,which IS still very good,btw)that have the potential to lower an arm's noise floor.That's it!Just my own logic(whether it is favored by some or not).
My ONLY concern is to actually view the arm as a NON FACTOR(sort of)!...Let it allow the cartridge to do it's thing,and be invisible(if that were only possible)!
It is,in reality,only about the cartridge!Yet,it must be attached to something...Something with as little resonance as possible.As few(stable) contacts as possible.
Who even cares about my choice of a Phantom,as I will readily admit that based on my arguement the Schroder,or better yet,the Kuzma airline would be taking it to the max!
Please don't view my post as provocative,but just some hobbyist's opinion.
Also,I could easily end up with a Triplanar,some day,and would be thrilled!!!....I just want to get back to spinning my records again!!
Best. |
Hi Sirspeedy, I certainly don't regard anything about the Phantom/Tri-planar question provacative- really, you can't go wrong either way. As far as I'm concerned, the more vinyl the better :)
I'm not certain that the 'one bearing'vs'four bearing' issue is real though. It seems that a logical fallacy might be operating there. Its certainly worth investigation... |
>>My ONLY concern is to actually view the arm as a NON FACTOR(sort of)!...Let it allow the cartridge to do it's thing,and be invisible(if that were only possible)!
It is,in reality,only about the cartridge!<<
Totally disagree.
First, it is impossible to view the arm as a "non factor". Not even sort of. A very myopic view.
Second, the cartridge can no more "do it's thing" invisibly than the tonearm can "do it's thing" without error and in total neutrality.
Lastly, the tonearm's impact on accurate playback is far more important than the cartridge in my experience and opinion. I'm not dismissing the cartridge's role but given the choice of an excellent tonearm OR cartridge, sign me up for the tonearm every time. |
Atmosphere,point well taken!Also,I'm certainly no mechanical engineer,but I have my own way of viewing things.Based on my wife's observations,they are usually wrong -:)
BTW,if I actually find that the Phantom is unavailable for an inordinately long time(I've been waiting for over two months,and I do understand the "why" of the delay),which I hope is not the case (and I certainly will wait a very,very long time before losing hope of obtaining one),I could be singing the virtues of a Triplanar."IT" would be my next logical choice!!I could always make a few bucks on my IC-70,and put that money towards a disc flattener -:)
My perspective on the disc flattener,btw,is more for the advantage of obtaining lower prices on the number of not perfectly flat LP's that appear at my local used LP source.Those are priced very cheaply,so it could be a nice investment.....Who am I kidding?I just want one!!!
See what I mean?I have my own silly way of viewing things.Just ask my wife-:)
Best. |
BTW,and this WILL be my last post here,as I'm probably getting anoying already!Yet,some "TRI" fans might appreciate this.......Personally I have always loved the look,and design of the Triplanar.That is one reason why I bought one(long ago)when my friends went the route of other arms.
I remember in 1973,I had a business luncheon with a client,across the street from where HE-2007 was held,and the guy pulls out a spec sheet(he obviously was into Hi-Fi)of this INCREDIBLE looking tonearm.IT was the early version of the Triplanar!WOW,I thought it was very unique!
That was in my Dual 1229 era,so I could see no reason why anyone could want a seperate arm!
Fast forward about 25 years(approximatey)to my owning(for three years)a Triplanar.My situation was mucked up,by a non caring dealer,who did not check with the mfgr about the arm's compatibility with my table(an early SOTA Cosmos).EVEN though I specifically asked this exact question of him!!
The arm did not fit into the arm-well properly,and the dealer told me to basically live with it!!I kid you not!!I don't go there anymore,and the guy approached me at HE-2007 like he was my best friend!WHEW!!
I had called the "incredibly nice"(you have NO idea,actually)Herb Papier,to plead my case.The guy almost cried,he was SO,SO concerned!!I am NOT exagerating!
The arm has a history of "goodness" surrounding it!If that makes any sense.
Here's one reason why.....firstly Herb made me up a "really cool" looking device to allow for my arm to work with my cartridge,somewhat.I was not too far along in my fanaticism to mind much,and it did allow for me to hear "music".
Herb was the kind of guy to actually "call" some owners of the arm(I guess he felt a bit sorry for my situation)from time to time,to "see how things were doing"!I mean he definitely came from the Sid Marks school of INCREDIBLY DECENT GENTLEMEN!!!Of another era!!
About six months before his passing away,he called me,in my place of business,with an unusually enthusiastic tone to his voice.He had made some modifications to the arm,which he liked alot,including the new wiring.
Herb stated to me,and I quote,because I WAS SO IMPRESSED WITH HIS OLD WORLD WAY OF DEALING WITH CUSTOMERS,that I remember,word for word..."Mark,you cannot believe how much better I have made the arm.Please send me yours,and I will do the upgrades for my cost.I'm hearing things I never heard before on my records"!!!!!!..I SWEAR,this is absolutely word for word true,and this is the kind of "heritage" this product has!!!Who the heck does that stuff today!!!...At the time,I was getting more experience in arm/cartridge voicing so wanted a more precise product match-up,and did not take up the offer..."What a great guy Herb was"!!!
Just thought I'd put it out there.
BTW,I still think the Phantom may be a bit quieter(just a hunch) -:) Sue me!-:) |
Audiofeil,you take my comments too literally,but you are "good" at trying to find something "bad" in many cases.
I'll stick with attempting to get the personality of the cartridge,by limiting the potential pitfalls of some arm choices.Doesn't seem too myopic to me.
Best. |
Hi Tim
Yea I had the same opinion you had, however after TAS review where Garcia reviewed them both on the same table and same transfiguration cartridge and some of the views here it would almost seem that opinion's are reversed. Phantom being smooth and less dynamic and tri-planer being more dynamic and a more detail (or a little eadgy).
I assume you still have your atmosphere amps, hence being aligned a little closer to tri-planer.
I heard the atmosphere amps with tri-planer arm I think with a grand prix TT with some nice big horn speakers at the Show. Sounded excellent and credit given to this room as one of only 3 that played rock n roll rather than the jazz volcalist crap that all were playing.
I also met Tri-Mai and he is a lovely gentlemen who refused to get into what tonearm sounds better conversation, just that he was very happy the tri-planer was competitive with the best out there.
Still no closer at what is best for my warmish, dynamic tastes :-) |
Raul
Humor me here. What is the difference between VPI or Graham type arm and using different headshell weights compared to using same arm with different headshells??
Also where can you get the Ortofon tonearms from?. They are not on the Ortofon website. |
Downunder, speak to Juki for the Ortofon arm, he sells them. I almost got mine there but ended up going with Jeffrey from Highwater Sound in NYC, (because I was buying my Raven from him). I did get the LH-8000 headshell for it from Juki though, (if you get one don't forget to get a headshell because they don't come with one). |
A friend of mine has both a Phantom and a Vector arm on a table drilled for two arms. He has both a Titan i and a Transfiguration Orpheus cartridge. Both cartridges sound terrific on either arm. I would characterize the Phantom and the Vector as very well dampened arms -- the arms control and dampen vibrations imparted by the cartridge. This is quite evident by the fact that with either arm one hears very little "groove chatter" coming from the arm/cartridge combination. In this respect, the Vector is slightly quieter than the Phantom. Is this good? In theory, yes, but in practice it depends on one's taste and system interaction. In a slightly dead (or "polite") system, it may be an advantage for the arm/cartridge combination to resonate and "sing" a little. This can make the music sound more dynamic and alive. I've clearly heard this in this same system when a Linn/Naim Aro and Transfiguration Phoenix cartridge was auditioned.
As far as objective performance, with the Orpheus, both the Vector and Phantom tracked a Shure Obstacle course record with equal ability. But, in terms of tracking, both were clearly outperformed by an SME 309 using the same Orpheus cartridge. Still, in terms of real life performance, all of these arms performed well.
I have seen many topnotch vinyl systems built around a variety of arms/tables so I can't say any one combination is obviously superior. I've heard great systems with Vector arms (my own choice), Grahams, Triplanars, Shroeder, Naim, Clearaudio and Moerch. |
Downunder, did you come into our room at T.H.E. Show? If so, what day (one day 2 and 3 we had the beryllium-dome field-coil drivers running)?
The turntable was an RPM 2. |
Atmosphere
It was towards the end of the last day, almost when you were packing up. Tri gave me a copy of the Tri-planer manual to look thru, however stupid me somehow lost it before I could read the thing. |
Downunder, We were back to the aluminum-dome compression drivers in the midrange on the last day- we were only able to use the beryllium-dome drivers for the 2nd and 3rd day. The aluminum-dome has audible breakups (making the sound a little 'peakier'); the beryllium dome has no break-ups at all (in effect warmer, smoother, more detailed).
I am referring to the midrange driver that ran the midrange horn of the speakers. It was powered by a field coil rather than the usual Alnico magnet structure. Just that change was significant!
At RMAF I'm told we will have all the drivers in the speaker s field-coil powered. It should be quite interesting. At this point it appears that field-coil drivers are one of the rising stars in the loudspeaker world, allowing a cone-type speaker to have the same speed and transparency that planar magnetics and ESLs have. |
Atmosphere I saw extensive photos of "your" room/set-up,at CES 2008.To say it looks impressive would be an understatement!No doubt it must have sounded great!VERY,VERY COOL!!!If the economy had not impacted my business,I'd have made an attempt to get there.
BTW,hope you came back from Vegas with some cash in wallet.-:)....not easy to do.
Best. |
Dear Dowunder: +++++ " What is the difference between VPI or Graham type arm and using different headshell weights compared to using same arm with different headshells?? " +++++
I think that you can't get yet the critical subject here. If you can't understand with what I already posted it will be useless going a head about.
Now, you could try at home investing a little money. Buy a Lustre GST-801 or Acos tonearm ( or other similar ) for 500.00-600.00 and 3-4 different headshells ( different weight, material build, shape, etc, )for 120.00 dls. Mount this tonearm in either of your TT(s) and make tests against your VPI tonearm.
With this kind of exercise you could understand about and more important you could achieve a better cartridge performance ( with any of the ones you own. ) that what you already have.
Just try it, don't waist your money and time. If after trying it you are not satisfied ( that I seriously doubt. ) you always can go to the other way.
Downunder, this is whatan Agoner email me:
+++++ " High end is who you are, not what you buy or what you have. " +++++
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
All
Just an update on my table. The Phantom / Triplaner may have to wait a while, as there is still life left in the VPI HRX.
SirSpeedy, I have taken your advise and spoken to HW and he very kindly offered to swap the 12.6 arm wand with the new 12.7 arm wand ( copper wiring not valhalla) with damped bearing at a very resonable price.
Well I got the 12.7 arm wand and have put it back on the table with the undamped bearing. Just after a few hours it sounds more balanced than the 12.6 arm and does not seem to have the leaness in the upper mids/lower treble. Transparency and detail seem to be in tact. I'll fit the damped bearing this weekend so I can play around more.
Kudos to VPI for their great customer service & focus.
Me I'll probably end up trying the Rim drive which HW says is really excellent.
cheers |
Downunder,so glad you are happy!!...Funny you mention your VPI experience,as I was at my friend Sid last week.He has the 12.5 arm,or is it 12.6?He is awaiting both the new 12.7 arm and the rim drive.I must state that he is a huge fan of VPI products,and knows HW quite well.
He had the FABULOUS Air Tangent previously,but I felt the VPI was a downgrade,from that CLASSIC!!!!....So did other fellow hobbyists in our circle......BUT.....Sid is very "chummy" with Richard Foster(of HiFi Plus).They are best friends,and when Richard visited Sid,recently he "kind of" performed a "magic act" on the VPI arm!!!NO tick tock rocking at all.Something I used to notice.....Nobody local(in the tri state NY,NJ,Conn area)could get rid of the slight sibilance that was NOT present with the Air Tangent!....Richard must be REALLY good in voicing the arm(he has the 12.7,now,and loves it).
My ears tell me this IS SO!!!I must admit that as of my last hearing the 12.5 or.6 at Sid,last week,the sound is VASTLY better than I have heard with this arm,in the past.
Next time I go,there will be the 12.7/Titan-i,and the rim drive.Also,the second best LP collection on the planet.The top spot goes to Richard!-:)
What's not to like?
Best.....enjoy your "music". |
thanks Sirspeedy - After all its the music we all live for and to play. HW is one of audio's nicest guys.
The 12.5 arm has the damped bearing, 12.6 has undamped bearing, 12.7 back to damped bearing with motor honey instead of silicone.
I am actually packing up my 2nd 12.6 arm wand to send back to HW tonight.
Me I am not game to go the 12.7 with valhalla cable - not because i don't think it won't sound great, just for my tastes I believe I will prefer the slighty warmer copper cable to make my pop, rock and alternative records sound a little nicer.
Let me know how Sid goes with the Rim drive. HW said that Roy gregory went banana's over it and Fremer will have his chance to listen to it very soon - he just needs to choose what table he wants it with.
Hope you are enjoying your phantom |
Once again, the difference can only be
realized on the best of stable audio
refference systems. Tri-Planar and
Graham are the final word in tonearms.
Make your choice based on audible
sound and "the comfort zone". |
That's a strange statement from a guy who has obviously never heard the Continuum Cobra or Copperhead?
And the breakthrough that these arms have delivered will ensure that even THEY will not be the 'final word'? |
Halcro
Have you the copperhead properly set up yet??
Phil from hifi junction showed me one yesterday and boy hemp looks and feels strange but overall an impressive looking arm. All the wires made me a bit nervous thou.
He said you were still waiting on TW Acustic to supply the correct arm board. that must be a bit frustrating.
cheers |
Downunder you should have called me to come and listen. I'm just down the road from HiFi Junction.
Copperhead has been running since Xmas 07.
Continuum re-drilled the TW Acustic armboard to fit. It's only cosmetic reasons that Raven are supplying a new armboard (which incidentally has been ready for months but is waiting shipment with other items).
The phono cables of the Copperhead needed over 100 hours of break-in and didn't sound good whilst that was happening.
Now the sound is simply staggering.
I don't want to pre-empt the description until I have the DaVinci Grandezza mounted with the ZYX Universe. This should be in about 3 weeks.
I have heard that the Grandezza is as good as (if not better than) both the Phantom and Triplanar so a direct comparison between the 12" Grandezza with the Copperhead will confirm whether the bar has been raised as high as I believe, by the Copperhead design?
Regards |
Halcro,while I am absolutely fascinated by the Copperhead(hey,multiple patents on much of their stuff,surely means something),the "bar" stays in about the same place(as far as I am concerned),unless the Copperhead is compared to both the Phantom,and Triplanar.
Just comparing it to a well regarded Grandezza,says "nothing" about the Triplanar and Phantom.
BTW,while I was in my lengthly wait for my "newly arrived" Phantom I did look into alternatives.The Grandezza was one.In my circle the Grandezza is not thought of so highly(which does not mean much,in the overall picture)as the Triplanar,Phantom,and Vector.Hey,as of last week,I have to throw in the new VPI 12.7 too.
I stste this NOT to be controversial,but until serious "direct" comparisons are made,evrything seems to be conjeture!
One thing for sure,these are ALL superb designs,and truthfully(aside from financial constraints)I could live happily(I mean it)with any of these arms.....Yet,I am at the moment really fascinated with the Copperhead.Just from "fandom",and it's smokeable!-:)
Best. |
Sirspeedy.
Sorry I wasn't very clear......the comparison to the Phantom HAS been done many times (I have not heard the Triplanar).
Unfortunately the Phantom could not compete in any meaningful way with either the Copperhead or Cobra.
Mikey Fremer has his Caliburn set up with mounting boards for both Cobra AND Phantom (the Phantom mainly because when he has to review and compare turntables, he can compare them with the same arms (Phantom, the Cobra would be impractical).
Because of his friendship with Bob Graham, I doubt that Mikey will do any comparisons in print between the Cobra and the Phantom (he also has the Copperhead and it will interesting to see if he will compare these?).
I've heard all three (not at the same time nor in the same system), but the Raven AC with the Copperhead sounds as good as (or even better than) the Caliburn with the Cobra.
Email Mikey to see if he will tell you the truth about HIS comparisons with the Phantom, Cobra and Copperhead?
From where I sit at the moment, a major part of the 'sound' of the Continuum Caliburn is the Cobra arm.
The reason I want to reserve judgement is to hear the comparison to the Grandezza directly on the same table to see if the gap that I hear between the Copperhead and the Phantom is repeated with the Davinci arm?
Regards |
PS Sirspeedy,
The distributer in Australia for the Triplanar arm is in fact the CEO of Continuum Audio (Dr Murali Murugasu) and he has listened at length to the Triplanar vs the Cobra and Copperhead.....not good news for you Triplanar fans?
However this is understandable.
The Cobra and Copperhead arms were designed by Mark Doehmann of Continuum from first principles and early prototypes were tested against the Graham, Triplanar and Schroeder arms to ensure that these benchmarks were exceeded by a LARGE margin.
The sad fact is that most of you in the USA will probably never get to HEAR one of these arms let alone own one?!
Because of the sorry state of the US dollar, even the Copperhead is more than twice the price of the Phantom or Triplanar.
Continuum can't keep up with world demand and even though I know Murali and live close by, it even took ME in Australia, 6 months to obtain a Copperhead?!
Until other manufacturers understand and impliment the new design principles discovered by the Continuum team, the majority of the audiphile world will NOT be aware of the true dimensions of the information contained in the grooves of the simple vinyl record.
Regards |
Yes,Halcro I did read Fremers comments.Hey,if something pushes the emvelope.... "great".I don't recall Fremer doing a "real" comparison against the Copperhead,as it was itegrated into the Criterion(gorgeous table,btw).
He did make mention of the Phantom vs the "16,000" dollar Cobra(Hmmm),and though the Cobra seemed to be his preferrence(I did not get the impression he thought it was a huge chasm),he did not seem to make a big deal about this.I have no interest in E-mailing him,as to his preferrence.His tastes are "his",and his music of choice differs from mine.I cannot tell you how many times I have seen this scenario!....But I DO hope you are right!!...Actually I did hear the Continuum/Cobra,at HE 2006.Sounded superb,with the given system.So did the Walker!
I truly am happy if there is something else "pushing the envelope".My point of view(from experience,and just my own taste)is...... #1-I would have to hear it enough times,in familiar systems,with program material I know well,and...#2-If item #1 cannot be easily done,then there "must" be enough good word of mouth,by enough experienced folks(that I respect),to create "believeability" in that product.Of course this would take quite some time,to develope such a reputation!No?
The Phantom is highly regarded,and I know it well,but it's only been around for about two to three years....The Triplanar has been around for around thirty years(and refined to the max).Not to mention I had one for three years.Even with a not so hot coupling with my table,it was "way" good enough to not be so happy seeing it go(to my accountant,as a barter-:).....That's a serious track record!!!
We'll see!!
Btw,you are SO right about general value,as it relates to the US dollar!I love alot of stuff,but must think HARD about getting something that is inflated.Either by economical considerations,or by high profile reviews.
Best. |
I want to make one more comment regarding the Triplanar.Just hobbyspeak,and only my opinion.
Although I now have a new,and wonderful(not much for me to find fault with,in a "sane" world)Graham Phantom,the Triplanar reminds me of the irreplaceable,and CLASSIC Leica Rangefinder cameras.
Built to an amazing standard.Built and refined for years,and performs spectacularly!Collectible as hell!!
One does NOT see too many owners getting rid of them,for the latest gadgetry!!
Best. |
Sirspeedy i always wanted a Leica but had to settlle for a Pentax. I had an older SME 3009 series 3 and was still using it. And in the modern era a VPI 10.5i.
Tri Planar 7 is one for the ages. I had my SME for 30 plus years. I know now Tri Planar will be the last tone arm I will ever need.
It still amazes me when i drop the needle and hear absolutely no distortion. I am still going through my new lp collection one at a time. Awesome and more. |
Sirspeedy,
I have followed this forum with great interest because I am considering a second turntable in my system, the first being a Walker turntable with a Linear tracking arm.
The Triplanar and the Phantom are high on my the short list of arms I am considering.
Throughout this wonderful dialog, the results are fairly evenly divided between both arms making it difficult to draw a conclusion... and you have made it clear you prefer the graham. But in your last comment you go back to salute the triplanar as the leica of tonearms, quite a comment, that makes me think you are not 100 % sure that the graham was the right choice!
So I will serve up the question one more time, with the finest associated equiptment-great tone arm wire, and Air Tight or Titan or Koetsu assuming everything is top draw, what is the best sounding arm between these two heavyweights. |
Logenn,I am not someone who likes only one product.I am a true fan of many fine designs(like Leica,which I always wanted too,but got a Cannon).If someone asks me a question about a product I own,hopefully I can give some meaningful feedback.BUT I am no authority!!A hobbyist,only.
OK,so about your question....I LOVE the Phantom.I like the fact that it has only one mechanical contact point,in this "seemingly new" very sharp bearing.It sounds amazingly like an air bearing design(which I KNOW,from experience sounds fabulous,and no resonances riding along with music).My MAIN reason for getting it,other than performance and familiarity,was economic.Sorry!!
I previously had owned the 2.2,and had the armboard drilled for a Graham,already.Also,I had the IC-70 arm wire.Of course,my friend went from the 2.2 and got a Phantom,so I knew the benefits of moving that way.
Yet,I know (I had one some time ago)that the Triplanar is a fabulous arm(why can't I like it too?),mainly due to "amazingly good word of mouth"(not unlike the Phantom)and it has been further refined.
So,my suggestion is to look at the design(of whatever you like),check out the design parameters that make it a viable product,and compare it's attributes to other contenders.What seems like the most plausible choice,based on the design brief?
That's how I do it,which is fairly logical,I think.
Good luck |
Audiofeil I know you advocate the tonearm ahead of the cartridge and after hearing the effects of the Continuum Copperhead on the sound I can achieve, I can understand why you think so.
However where we differ is in the superb improvements in sound that one can achieve with a better cartridge in a 'decent' arm?
The effect of running the ZYX Universe in a Hadcock GH228 was just as astounding as moving up to the Copperhead.
What is your opinion of the Schroeder arms?
The magnetic unipivot principle seems very attractive at first but I have real doubts about it?
I'm convinced that one can induce movement at the pivot point by merely pushing back and forth on the arm.
That must translate into 'lost' information and would account for the descriptions of the Schroeder as 'warm and tubelike'....'relaxed' etc.
In other words I see the Schroeders as potential 'tone-controls' rather than SOTA tonearms? |
halcro
Fremer reviews the copperhead and the cheaper TT in the current mnth Stereophile.
Just need to wait til my copy arrives |
where we differ is in the superb improvements in sound that one can achieve with a better cartridge in a 'decent' arm? Rather than casting the issue in terms about how much of a great cartridge's potential can be realized on a less than great arm, I think of it as an approach to the question about where do you put money on a limited budget, when you can purchase a great tonearm or a great cartridge but not both. I would say at minimum the 'decent arm' needs to support accurate adjustment of the cartridge/cantilever/stylus in all three dimensions. A goodly chunk of the investment in an arm is learning how to use it. |
Downunder...I've read it!
As I intimated, he isn't about to compare it, in print, to the Phantom made by his mate Bob Graham!?
Also in the latest Absolute Sound, Jon Valin goes one better on Fremer by making the Raven AC/3 the new REFERENCE! above the Walker...even with the Phantom arm.....and I'm here to tell you that the Copperhead CREAMS the Phantom!!! |
Halcro,I wonder if you are involved in the industry,or a hobbyist?Personally I have no issue with either,but I get the impression,from your confident dismissal of the Phantom,Triplanar,and apparrent knocking of the Schroder,that you "just might have a hidden agenda"!
If so,good for you,as I have absolutely no problem with coaxing out some old fashion heated debates,on interesting "hobby" topics.Yet,I think there is a flaw in some of your comments(but DO keep them coming).-:)
Firstly,who (with real hobby experience)cares what Fremer,or Valin likes?They have their own,personal,tastes.Good for them!I have been to numerous homes,of reviewers,in the NY area,where the consenses of the hobbyists present was NOT complimentary of those set-ups.Meaning nothing,other than the "guy" owning the set-up liked "his" own way of doing things.Just fine by me,but I will choose what I like,and no amount of good press does anything for me,other than to cause me to give myself some exposure to a particular product.Recently an "industry" person gave me a very negative description of M.F. set-up's sound!First hand exposure by this guy,but I still dismissed it as his(the industry dude's)taste.We all like what we like.
I definitely am NOT trying to be demeaning,just posing a counter arguement to some of your thoughts.All in good spirits.I hope!
Other than knowing someone who likes something,have you actually compared the Triplanar,Phantom,not to mention Schroder,to the new to the hobby,but fascinating, Continuum Copperhead?I don't include the Cobra,because at 16,000 bucks it will not be a commonly used arm.No matter how good it "might be"!
BTW,my friend was recently at a trade show,and ran into Fremer(who was very nice,according to my pal).My friend,who is very well off financially,asked M.F. what arm he would recommend he buy(my friend has a ton of experience,but wanted to get some feedback).The response was to get a Phantom!!This is not heresay,but a factual account given to me by my pal.
Yet,to me,and in complete honesty,it still amounts to little.Who knows why the Phantom was recommended?I now know it is a great product,as I have it installed.I had a Triplanar,which I liked alot,but have a hunch(based on my way of thinking,ONLY)the Phantom "might" allow a cartridge to give a tad more!A superb "real world" design!NOT 16,000 US dollars!
As to the Copperhead,which I admit to being fascinated with(mostly from NOT knowing it's sound)based on the design brief.Fremer "did" have a negative comment,from my memory of the review.He mentioned something about the arm's internal wiring to "not" be so well addressed.I think he alluded to the possibility of internal "tube resonances".He did not think it was audible,but I got the impression it was still a design in progress.That comment would bother me,if I were lokking to get one. I admit to disagreeing "somwhat" with Audiofeil(God forbid),about putting the "chicken before the egg"!My thoughts are it would be best,if one got the sense that we could "only" hear the cartridge's personality!With all else just getting out of the way!If all else were perefect,THIS would be the most ideal way to hear an LP.Sure the arm is of major importance,but there really should be NO resonances,or annoyances introduced by it,if possible.
I KNOW,in reality that cannot be,but it is how I kinda like to view it!!!...Just my own idiosyncratic way of looking(listening)at things "audio".....ONLY my opinion!!!Nothing more!!
So,if you,Halcro,are so confident about the definitive superiority of the Copperhead(let's exclude the Cobra,for financial reasons)over the afore-mentioned Triplanar,and Phantom(not to mention your legit comment about the Schroder(jury still out on that one),why not post a review of it on this forum?
I would love to read it,and believe me,I hope there are many more products to come,that push the envelope further.Even beyond those that fascinate all of us,as of now.
Best. |
BTW,forgot to mention another point(just some opinionated thoughts.....hopefully taken,"as meant", in good spirits)regarding the supposed "fabulosity" of the "Raven",which I have heard quite a few times(I have no issue with it,and it seems like a very fine table).I DO like the product,alot....BUT...
One thing,mentioned by Valin,....He states a "lack of air"!He goes on about a "lack of spacial characteristics between instruments on the sounstage".Also,there is mention of a somewhat "dark coloration"!He felt the need to add a platter mat,and there is NO effective clamping system!Some would view this as "not so hot"!!How can one be sure the LP is lying "ideally" flat.I guess Valin doesn't think that is so important to good sound!-:)
Yet,it is a RAVE review!!!.....I know this is compared to the wonderful Walker(I've heard that table a load of times,and "it" IS great),but it does make one "think",I would hope!!!Unless one takes these reviewers too literally.
BTW,just so you know where I am coming from,I would gladly own a Raven,but I am happy with alternatives,of which there are many, in the hobby.To me,there are many ways to get really good sound.
WE all split hairs WAY too much,but it IS fun!!
Best. |
Sirspeedy I'm not in the industry in any way....I'm an Architect.
Firstly I said that I've never heard the Triplanar arm....I said that the Agent for these arms in Australia just happens to be the CEO of Continuum Audio Labs.
I've heard the Phantom and the Cobra and the Copperhead in domestic settings (not show conditions or dealer rooms)....which puts me ahead of you in having any valid opinions on these arms?
I've heard the Rockport Sirius with its air-bearing arm, the Continuum Caliburn with Cobra arm and the Raven AC with Copperhead all in domestic listening conditions....in fact I'm the first and at this stage only person in the world who has heard the Copperhead on the Raven (I know this because Thomas had not drilled a Copperhead armboard before mine and Continuum had not supplied any Copperheads without the Criterion Tables).
If I were in the States, I wouldn't buy anything other than the Phantom or Triplanar because of the dire condition of the US$, but if audiophiles want to know what the State Of The Art is?.....it is NOT the Phantom or Triplanar IMHO.
No I have not compared the Cobra to the Copperhead to the Phantom to the Triplanar on the SAME Raven AC with the SAME cartridges...........although it would be possible for reviewers to do so (don't hold your breath).
If you are clinging to that fact to proclaim that the majesty of the Phantom arm has NOT been challenged?.....then you are welcome to do so. However if you presume that this is the ONLY test that is valid why don't YOU do it?
Finally for someone who claims to not care what Fremer and Valin say in their reviews?......you certainly quote them a lot!? |
heh Gents
I changed to the damped bearing on the weekend and I am a happy audiophile again.
Big difference between 12.6 and 12.7 arm's for the VPI HRX. the music now has the required fullness in the upper mids / lower treble combined with great transparency and dynamics. records just sound great from start to finish - one of the positive attributes of a 12 inch arm.
I don't need to think about sinking more money into another table - not for a while anyway :-)
I am now starting to really appreciate my expensive speakers that I spent my life savings on!!.
thanks to Sirspeedy for nudging me to try the 12.7 arm and especially HW at VPI.
Now to what about the RIM drive :-)
cheers
Shane |
Halcro,you do exhibit some(healthy) sarcasm in your response to me.Fine!
I,like you have heard ALL arms mentioned(by me) in domestic situations!
OK,so the guy who is the CEO of Continuum,and is the Australian agent for Triplanar likes "his" design better.Not a big stretch,and I can understand you taking his word on it,if he is a good friend who's ears you trust.Let's leave that one alone.
I certainly don't cling to any "fact about any supossed superiority of "any" particular design.I've heard a few arm/tables too.Including the Rockport(two different models)in domestic settings.
If you think I am clinging to anything giving more credibility to my own choice of a Phantom,or my appreciation of the refined over time Triplanar,than you truly miss my point.Completely!!
I have no interest in an A/B comparison of my own,and YES there was a time when these types of arms were compared,in the OLD long since missed TAS!!
As to the sarcastic mentioning of my recollection of what MF or JV has stated,it is my hobby,and I have a good memory!!More than that I cannot say.
I repeat my contention that you have no real world way of knowing about your " assumption" of the Copperhead's superiority over the Phantom or TRI,which you DO mention,with certainty!
You HAVE NOT MADE THE NECESSARY A/b COMPARISONS TO MAKE SUCH A CLAIM!...SORRY,BUT THAT IS THE CASE.NO? |
Hey,Halcro...I am sorry for the seeming tone of my last post.I was being hurried off the computer by my daughter,and accidentally hit the "CAPS" key.This surely looked like I actually was getting excited!Whether one believes me or not,I really don't care all that much if product "A" is better than product "B"(so long as my own music sounds good,to me).I have always stated that I am a fan of "all things audio".A life long hobby,so maybe that is a reason for my memory of "all things audio" being fairly good..Including reviews,which are still only opinions.
You are a hobbyist who seems to be passionate about a particular product.I have no doubts about that product being superb!!!
Whether one believes me or not,about my approach to audio "fandom",I can only stste that many wonderful designs intrigue me.
I would love to(like you seem to have done,with the Copperhead)proclaim the Transfiguration Orpheus as "the best",but I could not possibly do so,even though private E-mails by high brow industry folks have told me so. I really cannot take another person's word for something as "absolute",unless I have heard it for myself,under the conditions necessary.Not really viable in today's world,as you have stated.You are 100% correct!!!I've heard some seemingly well "reviewed" set-ups that I did NOT get!Lucky to have heard them,though,but a definite learning experience,about following one's own road!
Accept my remarks as non confrontational,if you can.You certainly have the right to express your enthusiastic opinion,about something you know to be excellent!!Without this kind of feedback,this forum would not be as interesting to me.BTW,if you send me a Copperhead,I will be happy to give it an enthusiastic go-round-:)I cannot afford it any other way.
Best.
Best. |
I guess I'll second the comment above, somewhere up there, about arm wire and IC's. If anyone has heard Bob G's take on silver (yes, a sweet guy...) then I venture that you knows a what I is a sayin'. (I have a 2.0 with Discovery copper wired inside; still sounds, "tight", like, er, something through ceramic....).
Also, heard someone knowledgeable above talk about different phono IC's and was wondering his take on the new Kondo LP KSL. I run some Kondo in places and was wondering (see, not a silver-hater per se...), and even though I understand the context dependant disclaimers abounding (Indulge me: If all opinion is equal, then how can anyone say anything? How is that that someone who says all opinion is relative, is invariably the same person that then offers many opinions, even as they say no opinion has an authentic ground? Sorry, got side-tracked there, jitter, mistracking, something. If anyone bites on "authentic ground," twenty hits with a broken bamboo).
You know, why don't we get an option of Kondo, or whatever boat floats, from the pins all the way to the phono inputs? I know its just energy passing through various patterns of matter, more energy, but energy matrices in the shape of junction boxes make my right hemisphere intuitively cringe...
Atmasphere, on field coils, have you heard the Shindo's? Just curious. |
Asa, not heard too many field coils yet (C.A.R, Cogent, Feasterex) but they have all been promising/awesome in their own ways.
Not all wires are suited for runs inside a tonearm as the weight and flexibility vs the ability to sound good are all issues that an arm manufacturer has to deal with. Having had the Triplanar for a while, I can say I have become a fan of the concept of running one bit of wire all the way from the cartridge pins to the input of the phono section. I have seen extra connections rob the signal (especially from low output MCs) of its impact. |
Since the AC Raven has been mentioned, I might mention some news from the maker. Thomas of TW Acustic is working on a tonearm , voiced for the Raven. It is only in defelopment and may not even appear. I thought Raven owners might be interested. I have taken delivery of a Raven One and am very impressed with it, first class engineering and build quality |
Atmasphere,
I have a Phantom and would most definitely like to rid the arm of the connector junctions.
This of course would eliminate the option of swapping arm tubes with differant cartridges and ease of mounting.
My choice of tonearm wire would be Nordost Tyr.
Having used a Valhalla wired VPI tonearm ,the results were incredible what it did in my modest system.
Especially when I carried on with more Nordost wire to my phonostage.
However ,it should be cooked before using for at least 350 to 400 hours.
The bright signature will completely fade away leaving the true voice of your cartridge.
Tonearm wire for sure is a cridical area of your system.
No dought there are other advanced wire designs on the market today that are equal to or better then the Nordost line.
Though it sure works well through out my system. |
Thanks Atmasphere. Understood on the phono wire/arm compatibility. I see the Copperhead runs from pins to inputs too. One can talk all day about the sophistication of the Graham arm's integral connector, but I still stare at the thing.
Someone above mentioned the Copperhead, but is it as good on a non-Criterion platform, i.e. without the kevlar/magnetic arm board? Copperhead on a Raven? I'm no analog expert, just curious.
The Raven sounds like my kind of sound and has got me thinking lately (less lately since the TAS review came out and the wait is undoubtedly going to skyrocket...). I've been around too long (anyone remember waiting, baited breath, for their Audiomart to come in the mail?), and just can't do pumps et al anymore. I've got an old TNT 4 with the tower air bladders and I think I'm going to find an existential nexus between it and a shotgun!
Nice thread; I'm learning things. |
Just heard Graham Phantom at sir speedys one of the best set up and best sounding Phantoms i have heard!! The man is a master speakers and the entire sound Very Musical Open..Good job speedy!! |
I have the Copperhead on the Raven AC and my friend has the Cobra on the Continuum Caliburn.
Without checking his set-up for VTF and VTA, I can tell you that the Raven/Copperhead sounds positively better.
Even my friend agrees! |
Apparantly the Raven is in a class by it self judging by all the buzz and reviews pouring out about it. I am curious about the speed accuracy and drive, when compared to alternative drive options such as direct or rim drive.
Clearly, the micro seiki influence and substantial use of materials such as copper makes a huge difference in the richness of the performance.
I am using a Walker Black Diamond with silver wire from the cartridge clips to the rca's with excellent success and performance. Even though, the Walker comes with a bracket for rca's on the back, Lloyd recommends running direct for best results.
I predominately have used straight line tracking arms, but am putting together a second turntable system with a restored Garrard 301, new ceramic bearing and customlayered base using german panzerholst wood,
which is renowned for its resonance control and a new Triplanar tone arm.
It will be interesting to see how good it is. |
When I requested that you,Halcro, possibly "post" a product review,of the Copperhead on Audiogon,I was being quite serious,and with no hidden agenda.It seems like a "way cool",and inventive design,and the web-site hasn't got much!From a selfish standpoint.."I just love tonearms",coming in second to the finest MC's,in what enthuses me.
Based on some of your recent enthusiastic comments(eye opening actually),I think "we" would love to see this!!
The arm is priced in the ballpark,for some to seriously consider,and since the recent product review in Stereophile was a "combo plate",of arm/table,a dedicated review,by someone with experience would be invited,and appreciated by many.At the very least,me!!
Of course this is asking for quite a bit,and I definitely can't blame you for disregarding a request to do so....I admit I'd probably decline myself...BUT....maybe you might be in such a mood to do so,at some point....."Like soon"-:)
Enjoy!! |
Sirspeedy I haven't ignored your request for a review of the Copperhead arm.
As I think I mentioned, I'm waiting to mount my newly arrived Davinci Grandezza 12" Ref to see just how good the Copperhead is against what I consider to be formidable opposition.
The armboard for the Raven will not be here for another 10 days and then I need to give the armcable at least 100 hours to break-in (that's how long the Copperhead took).
So unfortunately a review is many weeks away.....but it will include a comparison on the Raven AC-1 and Raven AC-3. |
