Been out of the loop for quite a few years due to some 'life' events, with system in storage.
I have been able to pull my system from storage, and last year worked enough overtime to upgrade or purchase new equipment, but I have not upgraded my turntable/tonearm/cartridge yet.
My turntable is a Technics SL1000 MKII which for those not familiar, is the Technics SP10 MKII turntable mounted on a factory plinth. I have two Technics B-500 bases with an 'E' armwand and 'H' armwand that I don't use. The tonearm I do use is a Fidelity Research FR64, so I need a low compliance cartridge. The cartridge I used last is a vintage Fidelity Research FR-1 MK3 F, which needs to be re-tipped, and I will do so once I get a replacement.
If you've already got a Koetsu, it's hard to go wrong with 64S. The 64fx might be a bit more versatile with more medium-ish compliance MCs. But the 64S is better with Koetsus, certainly. On my Clearaudio Innovation, 64S is the #1 arm. And it looks stunning - great aesthetic from the gleaming steel. It looks like a serious instrument. Whereas 64fx looks a bit dingy by comparison, in the #2 slot (which it alternates with a Graham Phantom).
On my SOTA Nova, the 64S is too heavy to work, so the other 64fx (I have 2) fits and complements the aesthetic quite nicely.
Speaking for myself, not ever having owned a 64fx, let alone heard one, I can only confirm that the 64S is the more prized version. Says nothing about SQ. For mating to Koetsu, which is how I use mine, the 64S is superb. I use the 18g Ortofon 9000LH headshell (I think that's the correct alphanumeric code), not the FR headshell. In the case of the Koetsu, you do want high effective mass. The 64S is higher in effective mass than the 64fx.
I have a few headshells I can start with and will experiment from there.
I guess the 64s or 64fx question was in my mind also. Someone convinced me the 64s was the one to go for out of the 2 if I wanted something really special.
I can only see them on the used marketplace for sale in Japan. I have never purchased something like this in terms of cost, age and "delicate-ness" used from an overseas seller. I guess if I am careful of who I buy from I could be ok?.
The 64S is generally about 30% more cost than the 64FX.
Would you say the 64S is the way to go if I am only getting one to start with and using with my Koetsu standard ?
My impression after decades of headshells and arm wands is that while most headshells can be mated to most arm wands, it is not the case that they are all cross-compatible. It’s a bit trial and error with low risk of error. One deal killer is location of the guide pin on the headshell collar. A few Japanese made headshells have either two guide pins (at 12 and 6 o’clock) or one that’s wrongly located to permit mating to your particular tonearm. Ortofon headshells mate well to my FR64S, if that helps.
RE-surfacing an old thread here. Wondering if someone can tell me about head-shell compatibility with these FR64 tone arms?. Can I use regular headshells like I would on a technics 1200g arm for example? . If so what can be said about the native FR headshell eg- is it recommended?. So far I can just assume its a weighty headshell.
I’ve used many headshells with 64fx and 64S. All have worked fine so don’t stress to much:
Ortofon LH-9000, LH-8000, LH-6000
Ikeda IS-2, IS-2T
Koetsu magnesium
Koetsu vintage wood / metal (1980s?)
FR RS-141, RS-121 (stock 64fx), RS-10. Also have the stock 64S shell but never used it
The FR are good but I don’t see a need to favor them over others, except for aesthetic. The Ikeda is the best quality but also heaviest at 20g. The LH-8000 and RS-10 are good to shave off some mass. Some of the Ortofons have a tiny bit more rotational play (azimuth) when locking in, so you have to be careful to make sure you’re locking them in to the right azimuth. I like Ortofons the least, honestly, but they still work OK.
For cartridge matching - these arms are ideal with Koetsu. They "wake" the Koetsus up, giving maximum dynamics and the most vibrant midrange (which is the point of a Koetsu). If you want to see how much difference an arm makes, take a Koetsu from an FR64 to a Clearaudio carbon fiber arm (Universal 12" VTA in my case) - on the latter, it sounds completely dead and dull, robbed of all life. I don’t think it’s just the mass matching, either - that carbon fiber arm sounds sterile with many brands of cartridges.
They’re also excellent with top Shelters (Accord, Harmony). The Accord in particular is wonderfully musical and balanced. I like it better than more expensive Harmony, which tries to increase resolution over Accord at the expense of "thinning out" the sound. Still good, but I really prefer the Accord, which was sadly discontinued due to lack of interest.
They’re also excellent with wood-body Benzes. I prefer the iron cross models over ruby plate models, but that’s probably down to me favoring SUTs over active MC gain.
They do OK with Ortofons. But it’s not my favorite. Windfeld (MC and Ti) always ended up leaving me kind of meh. Jubilee MC sucked. A90 is actually really good and interesting sounding, but perhaps a bit more lean in mids and bass than I prefer long term. The Cadenza Bronze is a warmer model than usual for Ortofon, and this one truly matches "100%" A+ with the FR64fx. That Bronze (and its predecessor Kontrapunkt "c") is probably my favorite thing Ortofon made lol.
On a bang-for-buck basis, the FR64fx with Shelter Accord (if you can find one) or Benz Wood S (M or L) or Zebrawood (M or L) or Cadenza Bronze would be my choice. I think I still prefer the Benz and Accord over Bronze, but it’s not far off.
The 64S has been almost permanently occupied with my Koestu Blue Lace since I got it, so I haven’t experimented much on that arm. The Blue Lace is absolutely my best cart, but also the most expensive. When I did arm comparisons with a Koetsu Onyx, the 64S had a slight edge, but the 64fx was still close.
RE-surfacing an old thread here. Wondering if someone can tell me about head-shell compatibility with these FR64 tone arms?. Can I use regular headshells like I would on a technics 1200g arm for example? . If so what can be said about the native FR headshell eg- is it recommended?. So far I can just assume its a weighty headshell.
Also as I am digging up this thread does anyone have anything recent to share on cartridge synergy with these arms?
I am considering swapping out the Technics 1200G arm with FR-64s to use with a Koetsu Rosewood standard.
Were any if you able to get a pin machined or get a new one from Tien?
I was probably one of the first buyers of Tien's B60 replica more than a decade ago probably even predating Nandric.
My first B60 replica unit had a very bad side to side wobble compared to my original B60 that came with my FR66s.I was paranoid that using it on the fly would cause a disastrous accident to one of my cartridge cantilevers.
I contacted Tien on numerous occasions, at first he refused to acknowledge that there could be a problem and he then went awol after promising to send me a replacement. From memory this could have been around 2011.
He finally got in touch with me when I started warning other AGon members about my plight on his B60 for sale threads. Eventually he sent me a replacement where we had to do an exchange of units via a third party whom we both happened to know.
The replacement had less wiggle and I did clean off all the goop he was using and lubricated it with a lighter viscosity which seemed to somewhat alleviate the problem but not cure it totally.
I still do not attempt to dial VTA height while a record is playing so would appreciate some advice if anyone has managed to acquire a better machined pin/setscrew.
Did you look for his eBay ad? Probably it's been taken down, because I don't think he makes them any more for regular sale, but I certainly could be wrong.
BTW I assume that you mean with FR-64 the 64S (S=steel).
There is also an FR-64 with aluminum arm wand and round
lateral balance."
I have one of each, one is the 'S' (With "Silver Wire Inside" sticker) which is at the Ikeda shop in Japan right now getting refurbish/regrease/rewire with Ikeda silver, the other, which has the "round lateral weight" is mounted to my SL1000 MK2. I have seen 2 different places spec both of these arms as to having the same effective mass, one says 35 grams, (vinyl engine) the other (1986 Stereo Review Stereo Buyers Guide) says 30 grams.
How much 'better' is the 'S' model?
I plan to use the 'S' version when I get it back from Ikeda on my newly acquired SL1000 MK3. Hopefully the guide pin issue is solved soon, still waiting.
You can buy silver cartridge leads on eBay. They are a product of either Yamamoto or Oyaide; in other words, the source is reputable. No need to purchase an entire headshell. In fact, I don’t know of any of the better Japanese-made headshells that come with silver leads. @lewm
This is a nice set of Silver Lead Wires made by Audio-Technica, i think they are from the 80’s. I’ve bought two sets (NOS). Has anyone else tried them ?
There is a nice Audio Craft headshell which i am happy to use on high mass tonearms. That models designed to solder leadwires directly to the headshell pins (less connectors in signal path). This is a dual-lock headshell. I think it's top quality.
Not sure if Colby wouldn't be the best bet, but still hope that Tien will come thru... I have been pressing for a fix for quite awhile and my patience is waning....
Also, so you know, I have been in contact with Tien, the person we bought these from, and he says that new screw guides are being made and will be done in a week or so. I know Colby is very capable, I have seen much of his work in person, he has built quite a few HEAVY turntables, etc. This might be something that each individual B60 may need 'custom tuning'... not sure if the tolerances of each were close enough for a universal part and that that is why we are having these troubles? Just as in the 2 examples I have, one has no vertical or lateral play, while the other has quite a bit lateral play. Colby did make me the SP-10 MK3 center disc removal tool, thanks for the suggestion. When I did the 1600 mile round trip from WA state to CA about a week ago, I was supposed to stop by Colby's new place on the way back (I live less than 200 miles from him, and have only visited him at his previous home, have not seen his new acquisition) but I had drove straight, without sleep and needed to get home... won't do that again... 36 hours straight with only a couple 'cat naps' to keep me refreshed enough to drive. I got the SL1000 MK3 home safely and it is in very nice condition. Unused for the past 20 years and light use before that time. When funds allow, will be shipping off for complete refurb with Krebs mods... but will have to wait, as I have spent WAY too much $$ in the past month or so.
Rich, You can buy silver cartridge leads on eBay. They are a product of either Yamamoto or Oyaide; in other words, the source is reputable. No need to purchase an entire headshell. In fact, I don’t know of any of the better Japanese-made headshells that come with silver leads. Most use high quality copper. I have an HS4S, too. On that one, I think the leads are hard-wired. You cannot easily replace them with silver leads. On the other hand, the elimination of one physical connection in the signal path is worth that sacrifice, IMO. Great headshell, by the way.
I am currently finding my Ortofon MC2000, which has the lowest output of any cartridge I know about, to sound surprisingly great through my Manley Steelhead while riding in an HS4S on a Dynavector DV505. (No SUT needed.) I think this only works well because the Beveridge direct-drive amplifiers must have a very low input sensitivity. (Meaning, they don't need much signal voltage to drive them pretty hard.) I want to put the MC2000 on my FR64S, but the high-ish compliance of the MC2000 matched with the high mass of the FR64S gives me pause. However, the low weight of the HS4S makes it worth a shot. You've convinced me.
chakster I have 2 counter weights, one is 175 grams, which was used on the FR64 and the other is 250 grams, which I'm hoping to be able to use with the FR64S. I'm hoping I will be able to get balance close to the bearing so as to lower the seen Effective Mass, but won't know if it works until I get the tonearm back from Ikeda, which I just shipped on Monday, they will completely disassemble the tonearm, clean it, check for any issues, repair/relube and then replace the existing silver wire with new Ikeda silver wire.
I was planning on using a carbon fiber Yamamoto HS4S headshell... it is only 10.7 grams (compared to the 20 grams of FR headshell used when rating the FR64S @ EM of 35 grams) and the leads on the headshell are 6N copper leads, next I would like to find a similar headshell with 6N silver leads.
I talked with Peter Green of SoundSmith and he said that the 10um/mN @ 10Hz rating on their cartridges is a good match for up to around 29 gram Effective Mass on a tonearm. Actually most of their cartridges fall into this range.
Nandric knows this through my personal communication with him, but after I stated that my B60 was functioning perfectly, I found out two things about it: first, mine also can move back-and-forth a few millimeters in the horizontal direction, but thankfully it is tight and stable in the vertical direction, at least. Second, therefore I also need a new set screw. In reading the latest posts on this subject, I am thinking that I know a very fine machinist who has an audiophile bent. This is Colby Lang whom some of you may also know. He lives in Oregon. It may require me to send my B60 to Colby so he can make a perfect screw, if you pardon the expression, but I am willing to do that. First, I will contact Colby and see whether he is interested in this little project. Meantime, if you guys tell me whether you do or don’t want such a screw I can probably get a group price from Colby. He doesn’t work for free.
Do you have both counterweight of the different mass for your FR tonearms or they are all have the same big and heavy counterweight ?
If the compliance is
10μm/mN
@ 10Hz then it's fairly low conpliance and heavy mass is what you need. But if the compliance measured at 100 Hz then your cartridge is twice as much in compliance. So you have to ask them to make sure!
Actually i'm surprised if the SoundSmith cartridges have such a low compliance as 10cu ... (it's a bit old fashioned for a modern cartridge designer). Not sure how heavy is your headshell to balance with the tonearm counterweight.
BTW: How did you sent then to Ideda Sound Lab ? Do you have direct contact ?
The FR64 has a round disc shaped 'Lateral Balance' weight, which is smaller in size/mass (and different) than the long cylinder shaped Lateral Balance weight used on the FR64S.
Because of this and other differences, does the FR64 have significantly less Effective Mass than the 35 grams of the FR64S?
I have sent the FR64S to Ikeda for rebuild and silver internal wire replacement. Would the FR64 have near equal performance as the FR64S, but with the ability, if it does have less Effective Mass, to work better with cartridges of slightly higher compliance? If so, I will have the same rebuild done to it.
I have recently purchased the SoundSmith Sussurro II (
10μm/mN
compliance) and just got back my FR-1 MK3 F from SoundSmith which had ruby cantilever/retip and last week sent them my FR MC201 to have the same done, they are both also 10um/mN compliance.
Would the FR64 be a better match for these cartridges than the FR64S?
Yes it is a screw...if memory serves (it has been several years since I had mine apart) the very tip of the screw is machined smooth to form a pin that extends into a vertical slot in the inner piston. Maybe I forgot the detail.
Anyway mine is too small allowing movements horizontally when the inner piston travels vertically- as is the case with others as well. So screw needs to be correct length, fit the threaded outer body and fit the inner slot tightly.
I believe I purchased his last two B-60 clones for my FR 64s’s.... One slides up and down, nice and tight and no side movement... the other, has slight side movement. Which I could know what needed to be fixed and knew where to take it... Not much for ’intricate’ machine shops here... larger production stuff.
@rich121 & solypsa , Is Mr. Tien still in business? I thought he ended his B-60 adventure because of insufficient profit. The ''guidepin'' as solypsa called the thing is actually an ''old-fashioned screw''. I asked Tien to substitute his steel sample for ''gun metal'' kind because of my assumption that this ''metal'' (alloy) will glide better ''against'' steel ,er, glide. Metallurgy seems to be more art then science while both are ''uneasy domeins '' to me. The same reason(gliding) caused me to substitute silicone oil for grease. I still have the ''old steel kinds'' and checked them in order to refresh my memory. I have no idea how the instrument with which thread is cut is called but assume that the thread is not cut with the right dimension/ tolerance . Aka ''fraction smaller'' then needed. This then causes ''side movement''. Any ''mechanics'' with a late should be able to produce the right ,er, ''screw''.
Heavier silicone won't help your b60 clone with the side movement- it is the tolerance of the guide pin. Ask me how I know :) If anyone has extra guide pin screw (of the correct dimensions) I'd love to get one...
I bought 2 of the same B-60 bases that you did, from ’Tien’ for both of my FR64S’s.
One of the bases slides up and down tightly, with no play...the other is similiar to what nandric reported, it has some side to side movement.
Tien responded to this by telling me that the base with play needed more silicone oil, which he would mail, and he would send me a video on how to maintain and use the B-60. I also asked for the ’gun metal’ screws that nandric requested from Tien, but I received no tonearm mounting screws with the 2 B-60 bases.
Tien says he will send the oil and that it was lost in the mail... hope so, as I cannot use the bases without the screws and need some help with the oil, as I didn’t even know they used oil.
George told me the 15K Ohms impedance setting on the moving magnet switch in his Zesto Andros phono amp was put there specifically for London cartridges, a fair number of his friends and Zesto owners using it with that cartridge design.
London Decca Jubilee or London Reference. Both are the lively and dynamic cartridges I have ever heard and are a great match for the FR-64. Note: I have never used (or heard) a London Decca cart mounted on a DD turntable. But I see no reason why it wouldn't work.
The Cadenza Bronze matches superbly with the FR64fx. Different setups, (actually the FR64fx is on the much cheaper table) but I definitely think it sounds better there than on my Graham Phantom (and it sounds pretty damn good on the Phantom too) - seems like there’s some extra synergy here. Haven’t tried it on the 64S yet, but I would expect the synergy to continue there too? The Bronze is really a different animal than the Ortofon Jubilee (predecessor of Cadenza Black) and Windfeld MC, which felt a bit off on the FR64fx.
The Bronze is extremely musical and dynamic in that setup; very impressive for the price. I'm now attempting to displace it with a new Shelter Accord, and that's certainly got some more burn-in and tweaking to go.
My experience echos others vis a vis effective mass- the fr64s is surprisingly flexible with carts of various compliance/weight. I have an fr7 and it is very nice but not fantastic. (Never tried better versions, have wondered about retipping mine with different styles profile). I got mine for well under $1k and it's musical and nice to listen to. Since I import the Sensitive Sound carts I've tried the lighter ART series as well as the heavy weight bigger brothers and am quite pleased with the arm match to both... So....if you're retipping your FR cart maybe decide if you want a different flavor, or maybe a mono cart? Variety is nice :)
I'd buy one from you, Nicky. I was referring to the notion of sending US$2000 to some stranger living in Europe or Asia who is selling an FR-7fz on eBay, where the condition of the cartridge is typically described only as "used". That's not much to go on for $2000.
I'm glad you ended up happy with your replica B60. I'm happy with mine as well.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
