If suspended plywood floors isolating speakers is the first step then see what you have. Something inexpensive like Auralex subdude platforms under speakers can work wonders (does for me).
226 responses Add your response
Kait - Actually, to be fair, I was not picking on your products. I was picking on your science. See the difference? Mr. Kait, You absolutely lost me with your last comment referencing picking on Star Sound’s technology. Why would anyone lacking a formal background in music or sound reproduction pick on anything proven to be musically successful, widely accepted by highly educated electrical and mechanical engineers and add to that possesses the graciousness of public support? Is your presence in audio just to aggravate people or are you out to prove you are "the best of the best of the best” relying on your aerospace background? I have read about people, who get kicks from argumentative lifestyles and have to ask, are you one of those personalities? Unfortunately my vacation is over and I must get back to more important company matters. We are still awaiting your answers to our previous technical questions with regards to vibration and science (your specialty) so please let us know if you intend to answer them so I may set time aside for review and if not… Good luck with your business and career. Robert Maicks Star Sound |
agear 1,097 posts 08-02-2016 4:03pm Geoffkait: "Actually, to be fair, I was not picking on your products. I was picking on your science. See the difference? Have a nice day, Geoff Kait machina dynamica Give me a strong enough spring and I’ll isolate the world to which agear commented, "A master of irony we are.....;" what’s ironic about it? Then agear inquired, "What do you do for a living or are you a full time audio tweak guru? I cannot imagine that is more fertile ground for an aerospace engineer than NASA...." NASA? Shirley you’re joking. Makes the shackles on the back of neck stand up. Have a nice day |
While we're on the subject of Stillpoints, I don't want to sound dumb but in the case of Mapleshade brass footers, how in the world does one go about balancing an 83# amplifier on these? I get that once they are in place they are stable but getting them in place would seem to take at least two people. Can anyone explain their experience? |
Actually, to be fair, I was not picking on your products. I was picking on your science. See the difference? A master of irony we are.....; What do you do for a living or are you a full time audio tweak guru? I cannot imagine that is more fertile ground for an aerospace engineer than NASA..... |
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audiopoint 26 posts 08-01-2016 1:25pm Geoffkait: "Maybe be you should just stick to insults and sophomore jokes as that appears to be your strong suit. Leave the science to someone else." Mr. Kait, In closing, we have been eating your insulting ways for far too long on this forum and just wanted to see how you would react to a taste of your own medicine, so now we know… Pick on our products, nit- pick our technology as best you can but kindly leave our good people alone. You are correct. I am a sound engineer by trade and not a scientist. Getting paid for what my talents are, using my gifts of hearing and delivering good sound definitely beats spending my time arguing earthquakes and the like. The important thing is not to argue as there is no right or wrong, just good and better methods. We are on to something excitingly new for all of audio and music so we participate here only to assist in education. We will do our best to stay on topic but...even sophomores like me reply to everyone's questions when asked. Sincerely, Robert Maicks Star Sound Actually, to be fair, I was not picking on your products. I was picking on your science. See the difference? Have a nice day, Geoff Kait machina dynamica Give me a strong enough spring and I'll isolate the world |
Maybe be you should just stick to insults and sophomore jokes as that appears to be your strong suit. Leave the science to someone else. Mr. Kait, In closing, we have been eating your insulting ways for far too long on this forum and just wanted to see how you would react to a taste of your own medicine, so now we know… Pick on our products, nit- pick our technology as best you can but kindly leave our good people alone. You are correct. I am a sound engineer by trade and not a scientist. Getting paid for what my talents are, using my gifts of hearing and delivering good sound definitely beats spending my time arguing earthquakes and the like. The important thing is not to argue as there is no right or wrong, just good and better methods. We are on to something excitingly new for all of audio and music so we participate here only to assist in education. We will do our best to stay on topic but...even sophomores like me reply to everyone's questions when asked. Sincerely, Robert Maicks Star Sound |
+1 for the Townshend. I put the isolation bars under my Analysys Audio Epsilon. I never could have think the tremendous effect this has done to my system. I understand it can be seen as a paradox but the difference really is not subtle. isolation bars give the same sound quality as the podium for a lot less money but are a bit more difficult to settle in correctly. Once it is done. The effort is worth do be done. The difference between native feet and Townshend bars reminds me when I installed my tubed amps on SRA Ohio Class xl2 for a lot less money. in US it seems the Cable Co is selling them. best |
In my system it stays in the speakers. At least for the bass range. Before the podiums (Magico spikes to floor) i felt the bass through my floor (wood on concrete) after the podiums i do not feel anything through the floor only through the air. You kind of miss the floor based boom at first but its really a fake effect, good for sound effects but not something i experience at live acoustic concerts I guess the question is what makes the speaker more efficient in propagating energy as sound. It would be interesting to take dB measurements to see if you achieve the same room filling sound as lower settings on your VC. That is what I have discovered with my SS racks (and room). I have gotten profound results even with cheesy, Craigslist grade speakers. One speakers designer I had over claimed that a $75 Pioneers on Starsound apprentice stands sounded better than many 10k audiophile speakers he had heard. Magicos cabinets are engineered better than most and could well highlight the Townsend gear better. It would be interesting to see its effects on the typical painted Chinese MDF. The room was a lot of fun to create but the formal reveal is still pending. Clement Perry from Stereotimes is coming to review it once my system fiddling is complete. You put a lot of energy and $ into your beautiful room and that was very smart. My younger brother lives in Portland. If I visit in the near future, I will have to swing by for a listen. |
Audiopoint wrote, "Wow, as I’m finishing up with this post, I just read your latest one liner with regards to one of our members! Believe me Mr Kate, you do not want to compare your career to hers nor do you want to go head to head in a science debate as that would just be wasting the lady’s time." I am definitely wasting MY time debating you. Since you don’t know what my career is you’re just pissing up a rope. Bring the seismologist on. Let’s rock! ;-). One of our members? You take a lot for granite! ;-) Then Audiopoint wrote, "You obviously already know everything known to mankind or at least your ego believes you do. Gee, I thought your career would be higher up the ladder by now, proving that selling a bag of rocks will only take you so far. (just my personal opinion of course)." Maybe be you should just stick to insults and sophomore jokes as that appears to be your strong suit. Leave the science to someone else. Have a nice day geoff kait machina dynamics no goats no glory |
“Plus there are not larger amounts of interfering energy within the component that is placed in isolation. There’s LESS interfering energy. That’s kind of the whole point. Hel-looo!” Me Kate, here is your chance to help us learn more about isolation by answering three questions of ours. Please do not post the straw man arguments avoidance reply again, just answer the questions to the best of your knowledge. 1. Prove to us via formulas or we will accept any qualified outsider opinions there are “not” “larger amounts of interfering energy within any component that is placed in isolation and there is LESS” - per our Example. Example: We do know when turning up the volume on an amplifier and witness those large transformers generating more energy, eating more AC current and generating more vibration changing into greater mechanical and electromechanical resonance at all variable frequencies per Coulomb's Law - so again why is there LESS interfering energy within your isolation model? Strange but you never refer to de’ Coulomb in any of your writings and since the law named for his formula is absolutely relevant to vibration and component operational efficiency we always thought you would bring it into play as some point or are you willing to eat your own words once directed at us - “One imagines you look the other way and hope it disappears.” http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-coulomb-friction.htmEmploying isolation techniques, one merely protects one component from interfering with another that it is in direct contact with. Isolation increases the effects of Coulomb friction by building resistance between the mating surfaces. With regards to airborne resonance, isolation principles serve much like the dielectric material in a capacitance device, essentially turning the component into a giant Resonance Capacitor. This is not the opinion of our company, Star Sound Technologies, LLC but rather that of the average graduate - level physics textbook. 2. Does isolation and heat conversion processes attenuate when that amplifier volume is turned up and where does all that increased resonance formed from greater vibration go? One thing we do know functions within the Live-Vibe Technology™ model; when a high speed mechanical grounding conduit is applied to transfer resonance to ground, when more energy is generated there is never an overload from buildup within the component hence establishing a higher level of component operational efficiency. You can research everything written “anywhere” about Sistrum Platforms and one shining star common among listener’s and reviewer’s findings is one can immediately and substantially increase volume levels of their system, hearing even more of the recording and with an effortlessness feel that never existed before. 3 Does isolation provide this listening benefit of effortless gains in volume because we have not found or read much on isolation models with that result taking place with any consistency. Admittedly the isolation models we studied and built produced some success through function but we also determined and in our opinions that heat conversion processes are a much slower go in comparison to rapid energy transfer especially when keeping up with musical reproduction and musical instruments which are quite fast and responsive as you know. Wow, as I’m finishing up with this post, I just read your latest one liner with regards to one of our members! Believe me Mr Kate, you do not want to compare your career to hers nor do you want to go head to head in a science debate as that would just be wasting the lady's time. You obviously already know everything known to mankind or at least your ego believes you do. Gee, I thought your career would be higher up the ladder by now, proving that selling a bag of rocks will only take you so far. (just my personal opinion of course). Robert Maicks Star Sound PS - Regards to you and Mike Green arguing? Must have consistently sounded like when brother Moe repeatedly hits Curly on the noggin! |
theaudiotweak 1,355 posts 07-30-2016 11:32am Hence creating motion artifacts and larger amounts of interfering energy within the component that is placed in "isolation" Tom No, Tom. The motion is imperceptible and only at one frequency, you know, the resonant frequency of the iso system. So no harm/no foul. Plus there are not larger amounts of interfering energy within the component that is placed in isolation. There’s LESS interfering energy. That’s kind of the whole point. Hel-looo! Have you given any consideration to consulting your new seismologist on this subject? cheerios |
Folkfreak wrote, "others with more knowldge of springs (Geoff?) may comment on whether the setup transmits higher frequencies, it may." The springs are simply part of the mass/spring iso system. Analogous to seismic vibration isolation, isolating the system from the vibrational energy of the speakers (cabinets) is accomplished by absorbing the energy via the mass/spring system, where it’s converted to work and heat. The mass/spring system would thus have to move somewhat during the whole isolation process. |
Where does the vibrational energy from the speaker itself go? In my system it stays in the speakers. At least for the bass range. Before the podiums (Magico spikes to floor) i felt the bass through my floor (wood on concrete) after the podiums i do not feel anything through the floor only through the air. You kind of miss the floor based boom at first but its really a fake effect, good for sound effects but not something i experience at live acoustic concerts others with more knowldge of springs (Geoff?) may comment on whether the setup transmits higher frequencies, it may recognize all of this is with a very inert cabinet design, and no ports on my Magico Q3s. Ps agear. Nice room, mine is a similar size and likewise complex design albeit a more traditional Art Noxon design for sound isolation and bass response, despite the small size it works well and behaves as yours seems to really disappearing into the recorded acoustic |
Try here for in-situ measurements, Townshend do the demo in place by jumping on the floor around the speakersI saw those too. What about the vibrational energy from the speaker itself? Where does that go with the Townsend paradigm.http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/townshend-audio-seismic-podium/ They are expensive. Wow. |
audiopoint 24 posts 07-28-2016 6:00pm Hello Geoff, Agreed that damping a chassis will have an effect on the sonic outcome however it will also change the sonic of the component and in most cases change the original musical character of the product from what the designer or name brand is presenting. Please don’t put words in my mouth. What I am saying is that damping a chassis or electronic element or whatever - when it is done correctly and without over-damping - improves the sound. I didn't say it would be easy, what is, right? I wish to hear better sound that what the original product sounds like, yes that’s true, now that you mention it. The whole idea is to try to obtain a better signal quality than you had before, no? Note to self: This is the same argument that Michael Green and I used to have all the time. Let the vibrations flow free. Just like old times. ;-) geoff kait machina dynamics we do artificial atoms right |
Hello Geoff, Agreed that damping a chassis will have an effect on the sonic outcome however it will also change the sonic of the component and in most cases change the original musical character of the product from what the designer or name brand is presenting. Speaking as a racking manufacturer and not a component designer, our products cannot fine tune, harmonically change or voice each component individually as we are dealing with an industry of various products, each one being unique in their sonic offering. Our goal was to represent all the name brands of equipment performance exactly as the innovator wanted them heard. The original presentation of the loudspeaker or component without altering their sound character was the ultimate challenge. By establishing and/or improving upon the operational efficiency of the component definitely delivers more sound quality of the product without altering the original harmonics. That specific engineering goal took over fifteen years to develop with concerns to the cello and upright bass endpins. Obviously if we altered the sound of the instrument the musician would become extremely angry and zero sales along with a poor reputation would exist among the all important music makers. We chose to use materials where the damping factors within the specific steels and brasses delivered the right dynamic as not to alter the original voice of the component or loudspeaker. This is where geometry becomes the all important factor in any design, as you are aware, too much material of any kind even that of a quality brass or steel with sink the live dynamic in a heartbeat. Once the life of the music is over-damped, it never comes back. I am sure you are aware the majority of electronic and loudspeaker manufacturers spend little if no time on understanding the mechanical sciences or vibration management technologies where the both of us are heavy participants. The one key item we do have in common is not one of science and that is until people physically experience what we do, no matter how many positive reviews that state racking and vibration management are important as any loudspeaker or amplifier choice, rapid expansion and discovery in our sector of the industry will be a tough go. No comment on Mike Green. Robert Star Sound |
If you still own the Monitor Audio PL500 these have an absolutely ginormous footprint (20"x25") -- bigger than the biggest stock podium so the quote may be for a custom job Likely the Seismic Isolation corners may work best for you -- two sets of 4 in Size C should be around $3400 http://www.analogueseduction.net/townshend/townshend-seismic-isolation-corners.html These will fit neatly under the existing spikes of your PL500 You could also explore the bars -- I'm a bit ensure on sizing (size 2?) but if you can find ones that fit these should bring the price under $3000. I recommend analogueseduction -- they were very easy to work with, and as these items are custom built ordering from the UK will be just as quick as ordering from the US (maybe faster if they do not trans-ship) |
Hello folkfreak,
It appears you are heavily vested in vibration management and we honor you for that.
The only advice I can personally provide is stick with a single technology or methodology. If the Townshend products are providing you the greater satisfaction then shoot for replacing your current rack with one of theirs.
Modifying other designs, mixing and matching technologies, theorems and products related to vibration management usually does not end well or becomes never-ending particularly when it comes to your wallet; unless you are the type of listener who really enjoys ongoing experimentation and we also have respect for the hobbyists working through the discovery process.
Thanks for the uptick on the Townshend materials. Although in agreement with the philosophy behind their products and have little doubt they do provide a positive listening result, I do have a major problem with the testing methodology comparing a dollar’s worth of generic speaker spikes to a few thousand dollars worth of speaker stand. Add to that the methods of generating floor borne excitement via stomping on the floor and tapping on a speaker which does not usually take place within a listening environment has us a bit befuddled. This display is a strong sales and marketing tool but is too one sided with too many unknowns and variables to qualify or quantify as a meaningful scientific test. Would love to compare our Sistrum Rhythm Platforms™ which are direct coupled to the flooring in order to balance the financial outlays between the two devices but also see how the seismic reactions differ when our added mass and geometry come into play and of course hear the difference in sound performance.
Obviously I am not the best advisor when it comes to other products or combining techniques but we are definitely always up to personal auditions involving your equipment and listening room should you ever have the desire.
Hope this helps a bit,
Robert |
Try here for in-situ measurements, Townshend do the demo in place by jumping on the floor around the speakers http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/townshend-audio-seismic-podium/ |
answer, a lot . The impact of mounting my Magico Q3s on Townshend Seismic podia was profound. The quality of the bass response became much more natural, sounding exactly like the live unforced bass I heard in a concert just this last weekend I am familiar with the Townsend stuff. There are no in situ measurements in that link per say. It will be interesting to see what Starsound's new seismologist has to say about that topology. |
Robert -- thanks for your response. I get what you are saying about Airborne resonance and am personally getting very good results with the Marigo Mystery Feet F8 Extreme to control this effect. My main question was regarding the other issue that of ELF or lower vibrations from seismic, traffic and construction. Having seen the immediate and profound impact controlling this has on my speakers I was hoping to find a solution I could easily apply to my equipment stands. I guess I’ll have to explore some Townshend pods to replace the GrandPrix Apex footers under my Monaco stands and see if that helps ps If you look at the Townshend materials you can quickly understand that the issue with ELF vibration is not the audibility of the seismic activity itself but on the effect it has on the relative geometry of the speaker/listener and stability of the speaker, so an indirect effect |
Hello folkfreak, That information was provided by our newest member who is heavily involved with seismic sciences and I believe was posted by another company associate.
The studies of seismic activity are new to our company. When establishing our technical model we addressed limiting low frequency rumble via shear waves, reflective angles and relied more on the laws of gravity and motion regarding inaudible frequency.
We have always stated and agreed energy can and will travel up into the Sistrum Platform™ despite the geometry and material science, however with the majority of energy traveling down the conductor is greater the minute energy making its way upward would not affect sound quality and to the best of our knowledge it does not. The Sistrum Platform accepts and transfers energy from ‘all’ sources and is in a constant state of motion so we never became too concerned with regards to inaudible frequencies.
The greater concern was airborne resonance. There is little known, written, studied or discussed as to the effects of airborne energy within the sound room and more importantly how it constantly bombards component chassis and metal conduits via a wide range of frequencies both audible and inaudible.
Reviewing the industry from a racking manufacturer’s standpoint, information concerning the managing of airborne resonance is all but nonexistent but we have noticed a tremendous amount more information on the sub-harmonic factors. The immediate question was simply why? Adopting vibration management to musical reproduction systems and listening environments is all about airborne resonance.
Our belief is that airborne resonance has greater disruptive factors limiting component operational efficiency and definitely affecting room environments as the acoustic sciences will easily back this statement was the major concern in comparison to sub harmonics.
We do not know everything, who does? We have individuals involved in our company who provide information to us based on their engineering or science specialty. Example: If you want to discuss a snare drum stand which is a catch and hold type of resonance device or the effects of mechanical grounding a grand piano then I am your guy. I am not the person who would have the resource information you have requested so please bear with us as we should have something for you in short order.
Thank you for your patience,
Robert Star Sound |
Robert wrote, "Isolation prohibits the evacuation of resonance formed from vibration. Said resonance builds up within and on all surface areas of the chassis including circuits and all the small parts, wire, power supplies, etc., including every part and surface area of the chassis. This establishes tremendous component operational inefficiencies as this resonance also propagates on all smooth surfaces clogging all signal pathways (electrical, electromechanical and acoustic) per Coulomb’s Law." Robert, as I already said damping is necessary and sufficient to deal with (medium and high frequency) vibrations that show up on the top plate of an isolation device, whether produced by an internal motor, transformer, CD transport mechanism, acoustic waves, etc. BUT this is in addition to isolation which is necessary to deal with the *very low frequency* structureborne vibrations. It is not true that isolation prevents the internal vibrations from escaping the system. The trick is to properly isolate and properly damp without over damping. If there were no such thing as isolation or if isolation prevented vibrations from escaping the system, as you say, then the LIGO project would never have been able to detect gravity waves, the amplitudes of which, by the way, are on the order of the diameter of a neutron. In fact, LIGO would never have been able to detect gravity waves without vibration isolation. Period. Surely your seismic expert knows that. I have almost always used vibration dissipation, "mechanical diodes" and damping techniques in conjunction with or integrated into my isolation platforms, including my sub Hertz Nimbus platform. It is not exactly a big secret that damping of the top plate is important. I have had many discussions with Michael Green of TuneLand and Michael Green Audio, who preaches a very similar message as yours, that vibrations should be allowed to flow freely in the system and the room and that isolation is either not possible or ineffective. Are you aware of Michael Green and are your methods similar to his? cheers, geoff kait |
Robert. Still hoping for a link to a reference showing how a mechanical spike can act as a mechanical diode to filter out seismic interference? You claimed this was "common knowledge" so would love to hear more Also I’m a tad confused as to how a mechanical diode (isolation in other words) fits into your system. From the following it would seem this is not the effect you are after? Again apologies if I’m confused they move because they are coupled to the flooring. The Energy Rooms™ are also direct coupled to the structural foundation so they also move ‘in rhythm’ with the earth |
Hello Geoff,
You are the only one convinced Star Sound has or are overlooking a problem. Obviously you do not understand our approach to vibration management and/or product functionality or you would realize that our platforms are designed to vibrate and yes, they move because they are coupled to the flooring. The Energy Rooms™ are also direct coupled to the structural foundation so they also move ‘in rhythm’ with the earth.
Star Sound products do “NOT” Isolate.
Isolation prohibits the evacuation of resonance formed from vibration. Said resonance builds up within and on all surface areas of the chassis including circuits and all the small parts, wire, power supplies, etc., including every part and surface area of the chassis. This establishes tremendous component operational inefficiencies as this resonance also propagates on all smooth surfaces clogging all signal pathways (electrical, electromechanical and acoustic) per Coulomb’s Law.
Without a mechanical exit point this energy, caused from vibration, greatly inhibits the functionality of all individual parts of the component or loudspeaker especially when located within a vibrating environment.
Contrary to the majority of audio industry beliefs, theorems and applied concepts, our approach to vibration is to let all the parts and chassis vibrate at will. In a musical environment components and loudspeakers are going to vibrate so we decided to begin experimenting with a reverse approach to historical understanding. Our technology is based on the rapid transfer and exit of interfering energy in continuous motion via a conduit of a specific geometry and material science. Simple and basic mechanical understanding with lots of investments into a lot of steels and brasses, years of prototyping and taking a lot of studies on how various musical instruments are manufactured provided us the methodology that established Live-Vibe Technology™.
A few of us involved with Star Sound grew up in the professional sound and recording sciences industry. We were exposed to acoustic and mechanical devices built on isolation theorems, constrained layer damping, absorption and diffusion techniques so believe me when I say “we get it and we understand it”. Those approaches grew into too many variables in order to support a single geometry. Example: Your isolation approach requires different and various sized springs based on chassis weights whereas our smallest Platforms support a half ton of mass eliminating the weight management category. We continued to search for a more simplified approach to improving sonic performance especially knowing that musical sound quality is such a highly subjective yet highly sought after experience.
Say what you will about any of our products or technology as many people have since our inception however, the most important accomplishment that remains totally undeniable is product functionality. The performance is described by many as stunning audible results in all aspects of sound particularly in the “live” sense.
We placed Live-Vibe Technology inside loudspeakers and electronics chassis, built a highly successful line of equipment racking, built mechanically grounded recording and playback environments and are now marrying it to musical instruments. Each step of the way this technology rewarded us with a more musical presentation and a clientele of audiophiles, listeners and musicians that continues to grow and assist us in advancing Live-Vibe Technology.
So we are a bit different, almost opposite in fact. The sciences surrounding commercial isolation products do not apply to our means. We are patiently awaiting your next objection and you are correct - necessity is the mother of all invention but did you know that music soothes the mother... Let it Vibrate!
Robert Star Sound |
Wow, this is even more fun than interconnects/power cords discussions! As I said before re. Valhalla for Naim Audio boxes, no one of us, mere consumers will ever be able to check all our options! Demo-ing in brick-and-mortar shops is our only choice. Personally, I got pArticular rack based on the advise from John Schwartz at Chicago Pro Musica and even now, 20 years later, I do not regret it! The one thing I noticed about marketing of such goodies was from Mapleshade company. They make such open and clear-sounding CDs (and sell 'em for next to nothing!) that you start to wonder if their ugly racks and cones and cords make a difference!! Nifty marketing strategy for those companies which cannot afford travel accommodations for unbelievers. My most noticeable upgrade as I was climbing from the entry-level to the Top of Naim's "olive" series was Mana Acoustics stands for Naim SBL speakers. Have no idea if it was some PhD in seismology who designed them, do not care if my Personal Guru, Art Dudley of Listener (and now with Stereophile) says that it is bull, these things do work! |
rickw062 18 posts 07-27-2016 2:50pm Coming from California I can truly understand isolation , we are not dealing with earths vibes. In this hobby we can effectively isolate and even better drain/remove internal noise . If you have turntable rumble or a needle bouncing due to wooden floors you must isolate that component.Now that you have isolated your components you are storing ALL internal noise and energy from tubes,transformers ,etc.Now let's remove all of the internal noise, vibration without total isolation.Open the drain and let it go.Wow this is better than a high dollar component change.After 10 + years of using AUDIO POINTS I am able to enjoy the full potential of my components.I can now enjoy the music in a more LIVE and realistic way.Only ridding the internal noise will bring the live performance to you.Your system has way more potential than you even know.Trust your ears, audio points are keepers.I have absolutely no affiliation with this company whatsoever.I was fortunate enough to borrow a few thing from a friend.Boy was I skeptical.Voodoo,snakeoil,whatever.This stuff actually works wonders above other products.If you can A/B against your stuff you will be amazed.You do have to let it settle a couple days or so.When removed you will be highly disappointed.This is my experience. Hear what you already have, you might lose that high dollar upgrade bug. Happy listening,Rick W. I agree in general. I already commented in detail regarding damping or dissipating or otherwise dealing with internal and or airborne vibrations IN ADDITION TO actual vibration isoaltion, the type that addresses Earth crust motion and other very low frequency vibration producers. Have no idea on Earth why you would say, "we are not dealing with Earth's vibes." Have a nice day |
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Coming from California I can truly understand isolation , we are not dealing with earths vibes. In this hobby we can effectively isolate and even better drain/remove internal noise . If you have turntable rumble or a needle bouncing due to wooden floors you must isolate that component.Now that you have isolated your components you are storing ALL internal noise and energy from tubes,transformers ,etc.Now let's remove all of the internal noise, vibration without total isolation.Open the drain and let it go.Wow this is better than a high dollar component change.After 10 + years of using AUDIO POINTS I am able to enjoy the full potential of my components.I can now enjoy the music in a more LIVE and realistic way.Only ridding the internal noise will bring the live performance to you.Your system has way more potential than you even know.Trust your ears, audio points are keepers.I have absolutely no affiliation with this company whatsoever.I was fortunate enough to borrow a few thing from a friend.Boy was I skeptical.Voodoo,snakeoil,whatever.This stuff actually works wonders above other products.If you can A/B against your stuff you will be amazed.You do have to let it settle a couple days or so.When removed you will be highly disappointed.This is my experience. Hear what you already have, you might lose that high dollar upgrade bug. Happy listening,Rick W. |
Addendum to my last: apparently you guys including your "seismic expert" don’t appreciate the problem fully’ Because the Earth’s crust motion and other very low frequency generators like wind ,traffic and wave action on the shore produce wave action of the Earth surface, the entire building is moving. thus, ANY solid coupling to the floor or rack simply allows that building motion to FORCE the component to move along with it, in concert with it.t. This is true not only for the vertical direction but for all six directions of motion. Since the vibrational wave on the surface of the Earth has six components. due to its wavelike nature any solid "mechanical diode" is physically incapable of dealing with rotational and horizontal forces, even if I give you credit for some vertical isolation which I actually don’t. so, like a small boat on the ocean, when a wave passes under it the boat moves up and down as well as rolls side to side and back and forth as well. cheers, Geoff Kait machina dynamica |
If it were actually true that the pointed tips of cones and other pointy footers prevented seismic vibration from coming up into the component then why are there so many advanced seismic isolation devices around, not only the ones supporting scanning electron microscopes but the ones in laboratories and universities around the world? Why wouldn’t they all just use "mechanical diodes?" Wouldn’t it be easier and cheaper? And why wouldn’t LIGO, the physics experiment designed to detect gravity waves, also use mechanical diodes in it’s vibration isolation, at least in part of it’s isolation system? Why does LIGO, you know, the project that DID observe gravity waves last year, the ones produced by a merger of two black holes, due ENTIRELY to the effectiveness of it’s seismic isolation system, use springs and pendulums and other advanced vibration isolation systems and NOT mechanical diodes? The answer is that mechanical diodes are not effective as a seismic vibration isolator whereas mass on spring systems are. That probably explains the plethora of advanced isolation devices that have been introduced into the audiophiles market the past twenty years. How many Vibraplanes have been sold since it was introduced twenty years ago? Heck, gotta be close to 10,000. Necessity is the mother of invention. Cheers, Geoff Kait machina dynamica give me a strong enough spring and I’ll isolate the world |
I would love to use footers to help isolate more of my components from the effects of outside low frquency noise but am not convinced by this concept of a certain shape being a "mechanical diode"at the frequencies in question and given the vagaries of different loads on the footer Could you provide a link to a reference for those of us not deep into seismic science? I tried searching but could not come up with anything. Would be great to have an alternative to the spring based solutions I am currently using |
Here we go again Mr. Geoff Kait, If you personally do not grasp or comprehend information provided by anyone who contributes to the education and advancement of audio, what…? Is it now classified as mumbo jumbo? You obviously missed Tom’s answer to your question which included - “the fact that the tip was shaped at angles that would reject low frequency attempting to pass up through the point tip. I asked her how she knew this? She said it was common knowledge in her field of seismic science that this shape was a mechanical diode.”
By picking out a small portion of his “total and complete” response to your question and classifying said small portion as mumbo jumbo just goes to prove time and again how much of an obstructionist you actually are on this forum, my personal opinion of course. Were you able to self research or speak with anyone of authority whose education is specific to seismology to confirm Tom's complete response? AND before you begin to take aim at our newest team member who supplied a brief reply for your question, please note that she is a Registered Professional Engineer (PE) and a Registered Geologist (PG) . For over 30 years she has interpreted seismic data for many different industries. She has authored and presented 14 papers on different aspects of interpretation and understanding compressional waves to the Society of Exploration Geophysicists (SEG) International and she has also worked as a Geotechnical Engineer in the housing industry.
AND since we already discovered that personal credentials other than your own are meaningless to you and In order to provide the proof you continuously demand… that of which can “never” be completely explained in print because of your ongoing tactics to create even more ambiguous arguments before any question is completely answered..., including those technologies that are totally above your ability to comprehend, we would like to invite you in and listen to an Energy Room™. Dr. Andrew Gear, (Agear) a long time member here on AudioGon would enjoy having you over for an audition. At the very least this listening session would provide the physical proof from personal experience that not only are the Sistrum Platforms™ “not” affected by very low frequencies but the room construction, walls flooring and ceilings on the whole are also “not” affected - and all this performance without the existence of any acoustic panels, traps, etc.. The Energy Room is the first audio product of its kind and directly relates to the function of the platform and technology. You will hear a musical presentation unlike anything you have ever experienced in your past - of this we are extremely confident. Up for a visit or wait for the reviews? Furthermore, historically you have yet to provide us any answers and/or proof whatsoever to our questions about your products. In fact the only answers we have ever received state you are not willing to answer “straw man arguments” yet you continue to demand the same from others so... Can we book your flight?
Yours truly and “to whit”,
Robert Maicks Star Sound
PS: If you really want to learn something new in audio take us up on the invitation to visit an Energy Room. Star Sound will cover the plane ticket and travel expenses. |
ricred -- Townshend products are distributed in the US by EAR-USA. Although the EAR-USA site does not have much information Dan can get any of the products. Townshend have products at a range of prices, the seismic podiums are actually among the most expensive -- price varies by size but mine made for 300lb Q3s were about $2500. This UK based dealer has the full range and the prices when quoted in $ without tax (i.e. exc VAT) should be similar to the US list prices -- you can order direct if you want (which is actually how I got mine) |
Theaudiotweak wrote, "As for the handling of vibration and in your words “your low tech approaches” in dealing with vibration across all the various and numerous parts of the electronic component, we find them to be anisotropic (physics of unequal physical properties along different axes) in design and nature." Actually those were not my words. What I actually said was relatively low tech methods (like damping) can be used to deal with vibration on the top plate of the mechanical filter and in the component. As for your answer to my question regarding how your product deals with seismic type vibration it appears to be some sort of mumbo jumbo. To whit, "Since we are of the isotropic group (having physical properties that do not vary with direction) the limited two materials used in our designs provide higher speeds at which all energy being transferred allows for greater management over time, speed and decay. These three physical effects provide the difference you hear in the performance and sound quality of our technology compared to all the rest." cheers, geoff kait |
Geoff, Let me get to our 'Point... The opinions of the engineers who have worked on this study throughout our history stated all along that the geometry governing the tip of the Audio Point rejected low frequency from the floor surface. Our newest associate in science flew in for a meeting to fully see what we were doing as she found our design for the mechanical grounding of musical instruments on the web and thought the two of us might be sharing on an infringement with regards to each other’s patents and methods. She brought her product with her in order to make comparisons. Interesting in that our products were two totally different concepts but arrived at near the same listening result. She noticed the Star Sound Sistrum Platforms, Audio Points and the new Platter Ground and commented on their geometry and the fact that the tip was shaped at angles that would reject low frequency attempting to pass up through the point tip. I asked her how she knew this? She said it was common knowledge in her field of seismic science that this shape was a mechanical diode. Rather than commit additional time is searching what was known to be common knowledge in seismology which is not our number one topic of research or understanding, we decided as a group to compare more information. Shortly thereafter all the members from each company chose to combine efforts and share in the acquiring of additional Patents based on each technical approach to vibration management.. As for the handling of vibration and in your words “your low tech approaches” in dealing with vibration across all the various and numerous parts of the electronic component, we find them to be anisotropic (physics of unequal physical properties along different axes) in design and nature. Since we are of the isotropic group (having physical properties that do not vary with direction) the limited two materials used in our designs provide higher speeds at which all energy being transferred allows for greater management over time, speed and decay. These three physical effects provide the difference you hear in the performance and sound quality of our technology compared to all the rest. Tom, Star Sound Technologies |