Dear Jaspert, excellent - a few minutes video do clarify the point.
Cheers,
D. |
Nandric, I do buy DT's belief system possibly as it relates to belt-drive turntables. I do not believe (and this is nothing but my personal "feeling" based on no data, which makes me just like everyone else) that the massive platter hypothesis necessarily applies to idler drive or direct drive turntables, although high platter mass is certainly not a bad thing in any case. I also love my (highly modified and non-original) Lenco and could live with it happily if I had no other turntables. Some folks on Lenco Heaven have doubled up on the Lenco platter, i.e., they use two of them stacked! Invariably these persons report an associated improvement in performance. I will never go down that road, but there may be something to it, or there may be a placebo effect. I would love to hear an EMT in my own system.
It's pretty astounding to turn on the Mk3 and see that 22-lb platter come to speed in a near instant and then stop "on a dime", as we who use dimes are wont to say. The platter may be "too light" (altho among the heaviest ever made for dd), but the complete control of it by the motor is what determines whether you like the Mk3 or not. This is not the same as the use of a massive platter on a belt-drive turntable, where inertia is king. The L07D was designed to use both factors in maintaining stable speed, a modestly powerful coreless motor drives a fairly heavy platter (made heavier in my case by the use of the optional outer ring weight made by Kenwood for the L07D in the 1980s) with sparing use of the servo mechanism.
Travis, I took some photos the other night. Have not had time to post them. |
Dear Jaspert: No doubt about the froces involve on that stylus/LP friction ( Newton Law. ) that exist. Fortunatelly IMHO the " ears " can't detect it.
Regards and enjoy the music,
raul. |
Jaspert. The video did not showed but it could be interesting to test what happen/differences at middle and inner grooves too.
Regards and enjoy the music,
raul. |
I think stylus drag is important, the better the turntable deals with it the better it will sound, as long as the rest of the design is good. There is a reason why the well designed direct drives from Technics, Kenwood, Pioneer etc. and well designed idler drive designs like a modified Lenco, Garrard, EMT ect. have plenty of fans. These turntables can compete with the modern high dollar heavy platter belt drive designs. |
Travbrow, Wishful thinking is not an very strong argument in my opinion. I asked two times about measurements of the
'forces' ( aka 'stylus drag') involved but nobody provided any while everybody produced some 'theoretical quess'. Adding up of such conjectures is not of much help either. I
owned Garrards and DD TT's 30 years ago and know that they
can't match my Kuzma Stabi Reference. Then there is always
this proviso that 'IF' they are 'WELL DESIGNED' which however means 'REDISAGNED'. By such an 'argument' one can
always state that the TT in casu is not well redisigned.
This is called 'immunity' of an theory. Ie no way
one can refute such kind of 'arguments'.
Regards, |
Dear Nandric, stylus drag is a resulting force related to VTF.
The actual "value" of the force in question does vary because of VTF, stylus shape, alignment, record "grip", record weight etc. - IMHO the more important point is how to tame the beast.
The Sutherland video does not take into account, that the LP itself might (does...) "slip" on the platter's surface due to the friction of the stylus. The Sutherland itself is not heavy enough to prevent that. A LP clamped down with considerable force ( by means of a Sota Reflexclamp or other similar screw action clamps which really press the record firmly to the platter ) does it still show stylus drag? Not on a servo controlled DD (Technics, Denon, Sony et al) and not on a Micro SX-8000 with a spinning 40 lbs+ platter and high inertia.
On many tt's out there, the platter doesn't work (sonically ...) the way it could, because platter and record aren't actually spinning "in line".
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Dertonarm, 'the stylus drag is a [(if small in value)'
from 05-09-11] transformed into 'the best' which should be tamed somehow (05-12-11).
I thought the other way around:
from the cantilever 'perspective'. To my knowledge those
are usualy very thin aluminium tubes which are more often
destroyd by the cleaning proces then during the play proces. So 'the best' is obviously of much less danger for
the threatened object (cantilever). I first thought that one can use the stylus/ cantilever combo for all kinds of
other purposes: cleaning our nails or even plough the land. Ie if a cantilever can cope with all those 'drag forces' then...? So 'exaggeration' works both ways in my opinion: pro and contra.
Regards,
|
Nandric, do you adjust the speed of your turntable while playing a record? Some turntables will slow enough from stylus drag that you can see it with a strobe disk. If you think stylus drag is too small of a force to affect the sound quality that's fine, but I think it does. I think it affects the dynamics, bass and overall speed stability. |
Travbrow, My Kuzma Stabi Ref. has electronic speed regulation which I never adjusted because there is no need to do that. If I use the Kuzma clamp or not this has no influence on the speed. To check the speed I use the Clearaudio stroboscopic test record with the stylus on the record. BTW I check with both my tonearms : the Reed 2A ,12'' with Phase Tech P-3G and Triplanar VII with Benz Ruby 3S. Both carts with 2gr. VTF. The Kuzma has inverted bearing, the platter is 8kgr. while the total weight is 40kgr.
Regards, |
About the 'drag' and other 'characteristic' of the stylus
cantilever combo. As a lawyer I am used to speak for those
who are not able to speak for themself. So here are two
statements in the name of the combo:
a. 'we are not sure about the platters above 30kgr. but anything below that weight is no much for us (our 'drag')'.
b. 'we are scared to death by those small cleaning brushes
and prefer the softness of the Magic Eraser. We are very
fragile and sensitive combo.'
Regards, |
|
This discussion regarding stylus drag is the reason why I sold some highly regarded belt drive turntables. I could hear them slow down during heavily modulated passages.
I didn't understand what was happening until i listened to a turntable that had the drive and speed accuracy to combat the stylus drag problem.
The turntables were a Garrard 301 and Technics sp 10 Mk III; but only after they were reengineered with heavy plinths or motor controllers or both to improve upon their weaknesses. The net effect is they powered through the record with dynamics and speed accuracy much improved over my former belt drive tables.
I drew the conclusion that all belt drive tables are compromised and cannot be speed accurate or very dynamic.
So in essence the stylus drag problem forced me to travel back to reexamine the old argument of which drive system is the most speed accurate and dynamic.
Not until I recently reacquainted myself with a belt drive turntable, the Micro Seiki RX 5000, would I even look at a belt drive design. I was certain you used a DD or an Idler so long as they were in a well engineered plinth with a good speed control device. But my recent Micro Seiki experience showend me it was dynamic as hell and with the surgical string speed stable.
I was very surprised and forced to once again admit there are no absolutes and be very careful before drawing any conclusions |
Dear Logenn, The stylus&cantilever combo was obviously not
able to resist the temptation to 'show off'. Thy 'ásked' me
to correct the platter weight from 30kgr. to (about) 15 kgr. Ie we are informed that your TT has a platter of 16 kgr. So the only thing we can suggest to you is: throw away
those cleaning brushes if you still use them and use Magic
Eraser instead. Our possible death will hurt you more then us.
Regards in the name of... |
Dear Logeen: Are you saying that in the Walker TT can we detect that speed non-stability due only by the stylus drag?
and are you saying that DD TTs like Technics needs adding " motor controler " to achieve shor time speed stability or is a misunderstood from my part?
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
V.E. had this topic of effect's of stylus drag last year resulting with comments by Mark Kelly and Win Tinnon.
It seem's to be a biannual debate that pop's up on every online analogue discussion site.
Thuchan
You have lived with your EMT idler for a while now,where would you place your EMT'S overall performance? |
Dear In_shore,
you are right, I had enough time to study and experience with the EMT table.
Maybe I have to explain that this R80 machine has no inbuilt EMT phono stage. The tonearm litz goes to a docking and is connected to the Zanden phono, from there via ARC 40 Anni to the WAVACs.
In the beginning the sound was already very musical using EMT Tondosen. When I mounted an A-90 into an EMT j-shell and also changed the line cable to Audioquest Cheetah the sound improved by getting a little wider, with a more open soundstage and getting more powerful. This EMT idler is able to reproduce vinyl in a way one really dreams of - and I am usually known as a not too enthusiastic guy.
Either you use EMT Tondosen or modern MCs the sound is just great and inspiring. I would miss this table if someone convinces me to take it out of my room. I am now considering mounting a NOS EMT 997 tonearm as well. For me an EMT 927 is a real giant among the vintage turntables.
best & fun only -Thuchan |
Raul-Yes. Only on heavily modulated passages you could sense a slight loss of speed or stylus drag, but in many cases you tended to overlook it because when it was on it excelled in capturing micro detail and nuance.
The Loricraft 301 motor controller helped calm the Garrard 301 motor to achieve greater speed stability, not the Technics SP 10, which is already very speed accurate.
|
Dear all,
I have mounted a second arm on my EMT table. It is an NOS EMT 997 "Banana" tonearm. As there is a 927 design carrying two arms my R 80 is prepared for only one. Therefore I had to mount an aluminium platform for taking up a Micro Seiki armboard carrying the 997.
Using my UNI-switch I am now able to change from one to the other arm.
This desicion supports using heavier carts while the light carts such as EMT Tondosen are used in the Ortofon arm.
There is an ongoing discussion which of the two tonearms, EMT 997 or Ortofon RMA 297, is the superior one? I will perform a test series to find out for myself.
best & fun only - Thuchan |
By coincidence I found this article and was astonished at statements made by someone, in a way of prepotent and arrogant,referring to the Micro Seiki turntables...
This person has never had or never heard a MS turntable, or otherwise must have great hearing problem's ...What is even more complicated...
There are hundreds of audiophiles around the world, using MS turntables, which includes me, United States, Japan, Europa, etc., they must all be stupid people ...In Germany there is even a club for Micro Seiki fans...The Germans are a stupid people...Mercedes Benz,BMW,Audi, Porshe, stupid cars...
In Germany there is a person/MS fan, that makes components to support MS turntables around the world - http://my-micro.de/
I'm 60 years old, I am a professional musician, I began to play with 10 years of age, 50 years of music, I have a Bar with live music, a recording studio, I eating music!!!
My Turntable?
Special version-Micro Seiki RX-1500-G (12Kg bronze plater)
modified suspension-I personally created a rigid suspension.
Tonearms/cartridges:
Tri-Planar VII uii/ZYX Universe
VPI JMW 12.7 latest version/Dynavector XV-1s
Tonearm cable: Hovland music groove II
Phono pre-amp: Manley Steelhead II
To finalize I completely agree with the Thuchan.
By the way, as a "Hobby" I already built two turntables...and rebuild/up-grade old turntables like Pioneer, Dual, Thorens...I'm a music lover and vinyl lover 100%.
Greetings to all
Xupakabras
|
Xupakabras,
you're right. Micro Seiki was a real serious turntable builder, as it was EMT too. Most people who are playing with modern small concepts will not understand why these machines were far ahead the competition at those times, and maybe still are. When you look at today's market you see many copies of the fantastic MS-concept of using up to four arms with one TT.
Regarding build quality you will not find many comparable designs. Continuum is one I would like to mention but they are very expensive and their sales strategy will not support their success at the time being.
Enjoy your system which is fine - and ahem, maybe you go for an EMT in "your next musical life".
best & fun only |
