A friend of mine that runs a SET amp with 300B output recently had one of his Elrog 300B fail. Prior to that he had been using modern WE 300B for as long as I've known him which is a good 7 years. |
Charles, Sorry to hear about the tubes. Mine are still doing OK, but I have had very little listening time for the last month. Still trying to sell the old house and so forth. Too much traveling, too much mowing, not enough music and not enough hiking. Although I did a killer last week.
If my Elrogs fail, I'm with you on the EMLs. Based on what I have read, they look like a great value proposition. I wasn't unhappy with my Psvane T black bottles, but they don't have the resolution of the Elrogs. Not even close. |
I am waiting on a new matched pair of Elrog 211 tubes and will continue to report my findings here.
I also own the Elrog 300B tubes but am not using them while breaking in my new Coincident Frankenstein MKIIs. Will eventually report back when I start using them. |
Jet,
That's the beauty of a forum such as this one. I know a few people took a chance and bought Elrogs, EMLs and Takatsuki based on(at least to some extent) my very positive comments. I feel obligated to report problems when they arise. Elrog said the earlier reliability issues had been solved, so I took a chance. With the replacement Elrogs I will post on their reliability as times goes on.
Charles, |
This does not sound good at all. |
Sorry to hear about the failures guys. |
My friends Elrog 845 tube failed last month and took out a resistor. Not sure who he bought the tubes from but they are sending a replacement tube. |
Sorry to hear about that. I suffered no damage fortunately. I put my EMLs in the amplifier and have music again. If the replacement Elrogs fail I'm just going to stick with EML and Takatsuki. With Elrog's long history of making military spec tubes in Europe these "audio" tubes should be no problem to pull off(one would think). It is such a fine sounding tube but that's not enough if you can not depend on them to last. The EML so far for me seem bulletproof in comparison. Time will tell. I must say that the EML XLS is sounding "very good" right now. The Elrog is even better but it certainly doesn't embarrass the EML.
Charles, |
I recently experienced a major failure with an Elrog 211 tube in my Coincident Dragons. I am starting to wonder about the reliability of Elrog tubes. |
Update,
I was deep in emotional musical bliss the other night when I suddenly lost sound in my right channel. No smoke,noise or drama, just no sound. I swapped the Elrogs left to right and there was no left channel sound. So one of the Elrogs failed. I spoke with George Lenz at tubesusa.com. The Elrogs are within their 6 month warranty period.George was very responsive(as he's been in the past). I'll return the tubes tomorrow and wait for the replacements.
Well stuff happens. I had to replace my original pair of Takatsuki after about 1 year(they have a 2 year warranty). Takatsuki said my case was very rare. I hope this is just an aberration and the replacement Elrogs are reliable. This tube is simply fabulous to listen to. I haven't lost faith. In the meanwhile I'll enjoy my warhorse EML XLS. It's a change from sublime to "merely" excellent sound.As a tube amplifier lover for 2 decades these type of episodes have been rare thankfully. Until I find a transistor amp that equals my SET experience I'm staying put and accept the fact that nothing is perfect.
Charles, |
Takatsuki needs 150 hours burn in according to web knowledge. Up until 60-70 hours Takatsuki may sound nothing special compared to burned in great tubes, some say 100 hours.
BTW, what's recommended burn in for Elrog? |
Bhchung,
I concur with your comparison/results. The Takatsuki isn't polite in my system, in fact it's quite dynamic. The Elrog is however more dynamic,vivid and livelier sounding in my system. The Elrog is said to have a lower "amplifying factor" compared to other 300b tubes. Yet when actually listening to them the sound is more authoritative, bigger/bolder(in a realistic sense) with superior nuance retrieval. I'd expect the Orangutan to be an excellent match with your Line Magnetic amplifier. |
I have both Elrog and Takatsuki 300Bs running on line magnetic 219ia. For speakers, I used LS50 and Harbeth 7es3. Devore O93 is on the way replacing 7es3.
I probably have about 100 hrs on Elrog and 30 Hrs on Takatsuki. So, it's probably too early to say. So far, I like Elrog better. Takatsuki sounded too polite compared to Elrog. Elrog gave better dynamic, top to bottom balance and much bigger soundstage. I will give more time to Takatsuki and compare again. I am trying but always end up switching back to Elrog. :) |
I have them now for about four months. |
How long have you owned them JWM?
Thanks
-assad |
The reliability problem seems to be fixed about a year now. I own them and have no problems at all. |
Has anyone heard or had experience with Elrog 300b tubes failing? I was very interested to get a pair but heard this from one source -cannot confirm it is true or not. Thanks |
Bill,
Our music taste is different yet the Elrog conveys the essence of these indivual genres wonderfully . Germanboxers has a system of entirely different components and yet his impressions are as enthusiastic as ours. In the end I just acknowledge there will be inevitable differences of opinion. |
Charles, what you suggest is certainly possible. I think you and I so far are in complete sync with respect to what we hear, and that holds despite the disparity in our musical tastes.
I just can't fathom how the guy who designed the equipment I admire so much, were he sitting in my room doing an A/B with the Elrogs and Psvane Ts, would suggest the difference was subtle. It is not close to subtle, and anyone who says it is needs to have an ear irrigation, my respect for Mr. Blume notwistanding. Something seems amiss to me.
However, if anyone purchases a pair of Elrogs and is not satisfied, I'll be willing to trade them straight up for my moth balled Psvane Ts. Just let me know. |
Hi Bill,
I hope tube to tube variability isn't the explanation. Elrog does extensive testing to ensure high quality control standards. I'd not want it to be the case that it's a crap shoot of getting a good pair at their premium cost. I'd be more accepting of it being a matter plain old subjectivity. Israel and I would probably agree on 90% on what we hear, so this may just fall into the 10% where we'd differ. I can easily live with that circumstance. I'm listening right now and the music reproduction is beautiful, tactile and sublime. I'll always call it the way I hear it and my natural response to it.
Charles, |
JWM, Charles indicates that Israel endorses the WE101Ds for the CSL, and they are $600 a pair. Not sure this is Israel's relentless (and that is a good thing for his customers) efforts to excel with respect to the value proposition. I suspect he heard a pair of Elrogs that weren't up to the standards some of us have enjoyed. |
Charles, all...
Always trust your own ears in your environment. |
That is just Israel he can be goofy at some times. He can be stubborn and when something is as expensive as the Elrog's it may not fit his style of recommending good value for the money. To say that these tubes are only slightly better is really a joke. Right out of the box they beat any tube prior to. I just think he does not want to promote this expensive of a tube with his philosophy, otherwise I can't explain it. Thanks goodness for this forum or how else would people find out about this stuff. Kudos to all you members keep up the good work. |
Hi Bill,
You should without question remain in your current "happy place". My only point in bringing up this issue was to illustrate how you can sometimes disagree with people whose ears you most often agree with. Subjectivity being what it is, at the end of the day you have to trust what you hear and just go with it, this is something I know we both do with confidence.In all honesty I have yet to come across any audio component, part or accessory where they will be 100% unanimous agreement, it just doesn't happen.this is interesting to me from this perspective. I truly find the Elrog a superior output tube even compare to other tubes I had considered to be excellent.
Charles |
Charles, well this is a conundrum and no mistake! As you know, my point of comparison for the Elrog 300B was the Psvane T1 black glass 300B, which I also suspect may be Israel's reference tube. As you also know, I issued a rapid and emphatic endorsement of the Elrogs, with the caveat that I had no experience with the Taks, EMLs, WEs, and Sophias. One more thing you have no doubt noticed, is that sort of rapid and enthusiastic endorsement is uncharacteristic for me. I was much more reserved in issuing an endorsement of the Psvane WE 101 replicas vs the Psvane HiFis, for instance.
I have to think this is a case of some variability from tube pair to tube pair. Clearly, you and I are on the same page, but I think it is just as clear that we share Israel's values, since we both have all Coincident systems. I can't make any other sense out of this. I don't think I'm inclined to second guess Israel's ears, but I also respectfully disagree. The Elroy's are a substantial improvement, and are a great value based on cost/performance considerations.
I took no little comfort in having you validate my assessment of the Elrogs. You know what? I'm going to stay in my happy place. Barring a dependability issue with the Elrogs, I have NO desire to experiment with other 300Bs. |
Charles,
I suspect that the difference in ancillary equipment, DAC, various supporting tubes, wires, room and so forth account for the different point of view...as is usually the case, but I know you know that. At any rate I'm looking forward to hearing the Elrog. |
Cal,
For Israel I'm pretty certain it would be the Pavane Black glass version. I Often agree with Israel in most cases regarding the sound of different items and components, but not in this case. The truth is that some will share his view that the improvement is only subtle, and some will share my view that the Elrog is a significant upgrade. |
Interesting Charles, and thanks for the info. Any idea what 300b the Elrog was a "slight improvement" over in those systems? |
Bill(Brownsfan),
I received an interesting email today from audiogon member Mark who recently got a pair of the Elrog ER 300b tubes. He loaned these tubes to Israel Blume to try in his system. They both feel that these tubes were just a subtle improvement and did not justify their high cost. Israel, Mark and I agree upon the substantial improvement rendered by the Pavane W.E. replica 101D tubes in the Coincident line stage. I find the Elrog just as impactful (at the very least) so while I obviously respect their impression, I will respectfully disagree. As more people listen to the Elrogs it will be interesting to note their impact according to various listeners. Israel does not find the Elrog 300b upgrade that he does the Replica 101D in his components. For me, both were major and welcome additions in my system.
Charles |
Ddriverman,
The issue of compatibility of the Elrog with various 300b amplifiers has been raised on this thread. Given that you have two different 300b Amps it will be very interesting to see how these tubes perform in two different amplifier circuits. |
Hi Charles,
Thanks for your feedback. Looks like I have to try the Elrogs. I do agree with your previous post that the reissue WE300B is not great. But I do have a few pairs of vintage WE300B with rectangular getter of 1950'd and early 1960's era. I also have 1970's era but these are not as nice. Bass and dynamics are the areas where the vintage WE300B loses out compared to Takat and EML. I haven't tried the Vintage WE300B wit my Berning SE OTL 300B amp. I should do so since the OTL amps have great bass since they do not have output transformers. |
A few people who have compared the Vintage W.E. 300b and Takatsuki say they're very close. The Takatsuki more extended bass and the W.E. a tad more midrange magic. The cost of the W.E. is so astronomical that I had no interest in trying to get a pair. I appreciate the finer things in life, but only to a certain point. When cult status is reached things can get out of hand. I can live with the Frankenstein/Elrog pairing very happy the rest of my life. This is simply pure musical joy.
Charles, |
Ddriveman, one of the goals for the Elrog 300b was to exceed the performance of the old WE300Bs. The tube designer worked a long time on this tube until he felt like he had achieved his goal. I have not had the pleasure of auditioning the WEs, but I find the Elrogs to be superb in the Frankenstein amps. Given the price differential between the two, I'm happy to remain in my ignorance is bliss spot. |
Hello Ddriveman,
I haven't had the opportunity to hear the"vintage" Western Electric 300b, Only the later era reissue version. I didn't like the W.E. reissue 300b in my amplifier. The EML XLS and Takatsuki were much better sounding in my system. The Elrog ER 300b is ridiculously excellent sounding in my amplifier. It preserves so much of the heart and soul of music, it's very humanistic if that makes any sense to you.
Charles, |
Hi Charles,
Your posts on the Elrog has got me interested in them. Better than Takatsuki and EML is a very good thing. Have you tried old WE 300Bs? By old, I mean pre-1960? |
Charles,
Answered on your system page. And thanks for the "Parkers Mood" tip...I'll check it out. |
Jordan,
Fingerpalnting is a CD I've owned for years and yet still listen to it very regularly, I'm glad you enjoy the wonderful music. I would also recommend"Parker's Mood" this features McBride, Roy Hargrove (trumpet) Stephen Scott (piano) playing the music of Charlie Parker. I believe you'll really enjoy/appreciate this recording as well.
Jordan I don't want to hijack this thread but how does your Audion Golden Dream differ from the Audion Black Shallow sonically/musically? You can answer this on my system page if you don't mind. Im always interested in your listening impressions.
Thanks,
Charles, |
Hey Charles. Yes, emotion is the key word from an experiential standpoint. It's what music is all about (IMO) and any change in the equipment or software that elicits more of it is a good thing in my view.
BTW...I listened to "Fingerpainting: the music of Herbie Hancock" last weekend and thought of you. Thanks for recommending it! What a great trio! Whitfield and McBride really seemed particularly tuned into each other and, together, quite complementary to Payton. Very enjoyable album! |
Hi Jordan(Germanboxers),
Jordan, your initial impression sure equals mine! Emotion is the key word. Believe me they will continue to improve with additional hours of use. These are superior sounding 300b replacements and I'm happy they work in your Audion amp. I suspect "most"(heed Dmarkov's warning) 300b amps will mate well with the excellent Elrog tubes.
Charles |
I bought two pair of Elrogs from George at tubesusa as well. I might have around 20 hours on them at this time in my Golden Dreams PSET's. They replaced KR Audio balloons and I have to say they were an immediately noticeable upgrade. It'll be a little more difficult for me to evaluate how they change with run time due to a replacement of the rectifier a week prior in my Melody P2688 line stage.
What I can attribute to the Elrogs is this: very transparent (a clearer view into the music), perceived expanded bandwidth top to bottom, micro dynamic "action" is enhanced. The latter trait allows for a closer tracking of the emotional elements in the music. I hope reliability is at an equal level as sound quality because these are keepers. |
I have Lampizator Big 7 as well. But I use 45s, the best of them, Cunningham, and then the best of that.
Please keep us posted how it develops. Have you tried any other tubes on Lampi Big 7, including any other 300Bs?
Just as Charles1dad I upgraded to PSvane 101D WE Replica on the same line stage. Worth the extra 300 over the stock tubes for sure. |
Wyan001,
That's an interesting comparison of those two very different tubes. I use the W.E. Replica 101D in my line stage and it's superb in that function. It's a thrill having both of these tubes in the same signal path working together.
Charles, |
My recently acquired Elrog 300B replaces Psvane WE101D replica on Lampizator Big7 as output tube (Big7 has a switch to take either lower current or higher current tubes).
Initial impressions are very positive. Right now it is not as refined as 101D but it dwarfs 101D in every other areas. Sound stage expands dramatically; more details (and 101D was reported to be utterly detailed on Big7); better depths (but filled with information) and more holographic; more sense of realism on vocal.
I suppose that it needs burn-in to be more refined. Also my system needs tweaking. But certain details and depths already show how capable Elrog is. I am looking forward to trying them on tube amps sooner.
Thanks again to Charles and fellows for all the inputs. :) |
Lak,
They're 1099.00 USD pair. I bought mine at tubesusa.com. Demand seems greater than the current supply at this time.
Charles, |
Interesting read regarding the Elrog ER 300b.
Where does one order a pair?
How much is a pair?
I recall reading a while ago they were on back order (but I forget from where) is that still the case?
Thanks for any assistance. |
The longer I've live with and listen to the Elrog ER 300b the more I recognize how wonderful this tube is. The past few weeks I've been able to listen to quite a bit of music and it has been a truly enjoyable time. The sole purpose of Elrog it seems is superior emotive provocation. They simply connect me thoroughly and deeply into the musical soul. I've sat at home and played CDs all the way through and then replay them. I listen to songs three times in a row, it's that pleasurable. These tubes offer such a natural, fully developed and realistic tone/overtones that I'm just completely pulled into the listening experience. They really do everything in an excellent manner across the musical board.
I was at such an exalted level of contentment with my EML and Takatsuki, I'm actually surprised the Elrogs have taken my music listening to a higher plane( to this degree). As these tubes accumulate playing hours they just continue to improve. This is so satisfying because straight from the box they sound exceptional. I truly hope that the Elrogs will work in the vast majority of 300b amps as well as they do in my amplifier. This has been a sublime experience for me. |
The Elrog has a different internal impedance, gain and filament type to a conventional 300B. Internal impedance (resistance) is approx 900R vs 700R, gain is higher than a standard 300B and the filament is thoriated tungsten type vs oxide type. It will give less power than a standard 300B under the same conditions.
Elrog recommends to use the tube into higher impedance output transformer loads than a conventional 300B because of the higher internal impedance.
It can have a problem in an amplifier that was designed around 300B specs as it did in the case I mentioned. Problem = mismatch and sound compromise.
Voicing/sound of the tube is different from "standard" 300B but this could be either good or bad, users can decide for themselves.
In absence of proof that it works in a particular amp, like with Franks as we have here, or when one has no possibility to just get a bunch of tubes and hear them in his own amp, it could be wise to contact the amp designer for advise. More experiences similar to the one with Franks will tell the story eventually. |
I'm not a technical person and don't claim to be. Everything I've read up to this point has stated the Elrog is a direct replacement for the 300b as they matched the filament current and voltage requirements. I accepted this as fact and had no logical reason to doubt it. If there are certain amplifiers(for what ever reason) that can't use the Elrog this should be made known(thanks Dmarkov). I suspect they may be a minority. Based on a goggle search I did to read other Elrog user's experiences, it seems the vast majority have had positive outcomes.
At this point with this relatively new tube, more information will be gathered and some level of compatibility will be known over time. I would never expect that everyone will always prefer the Elrog over other worthy 300b competitors. There are simply too many different ears and amplifiers/systems for that to be the case.
Charles, |
Brownsfan, thank you and I agree with your points and hats off to people behind Elrog and Takatsuki. Charles1dad's and your experience with Elrogs in Franks is very good news for owners of Franks, me included. They are cheaper than Takatsuki after all!
But I am making 2 points that I think are also very important/valuable in this thread and I will not allow them to be mellowed down :))
1. Elrog is not a 100% drop in replacement and is not suitable for any 300B amp. With more statistics we will know where it's working.
You are totally right. I will even add that people with means actually owe it to the bravery and risk of the people behind new Elrog to buy, try and compare to other great tubes :) But try to hear Takatsuki too if you can. It's not difficult to beat PSVANE T2 these days except it's totally amazing for its price and I often recommend it.
2. The fact that Elrogs are better in Franks (yes, a matter of sonic preference but I trust Charles' experience) does not guarantee they will be preferred in other amps over top tubes.
This is not a mere speculation. I mentioned much less successful listening experiences where other tubes were preferred to Elrog (old WE's and Takatsuki). So at this point my only take out is that they work exceptionally well in Franks, and that they are better in Franks than Takatsuki (yes, preferences may differ, let's say there is a big chance they'll be preferred), and they are cheaper!
For other amps - not at all that clear, and for some ampd - not recommended. I will keep an eye where it works and where it doesn't. It would be great to sometime do a list. If I hear anything like this about Taks, I'll report too.
I posted some photos of my system, there are some tubes there. When I test, I also try to test in several systems and with several pairs of ears to make sure it's not a one off. |
Dmarkov, I think you do us all a service by issuing a word of caution. Not everyone has the luxury of running expensive experiments. For those who are not in a position to roll the dice on a pair of 1K tubes, it may be well to carefully consider your words. For those that are in such a position, I say go for it.
Optimizing anything related to top tier audio is far from simple. If it were simple, we would all be doing the same thing. Consideration of the physics is alway a great place to start. But it is just a start.
I rolled the dice on the Elrogs pairing with my Frankensteins. It was a risk for sure, given Charles previous experience with, and praise for, the Franks driven by both the Taks and the EMLs. Had the experiment not gone well, I would have kicked myself for not going the safe route, which would have been acting on Charles previous experience and just ordering a pair of Taks. As it turned out, I was intrigued by the novel approach of Elrog, acted on that interest, and was pretty much blown away with the Elrogs right out of the box. I have been far more effusive than is normal in my recommendation of the Elrog 300Bs. For reference, see my caution regarding the Psvane 101D replicas vs the Psvane HiFi series.
Charles had the good fortune to audition a pair of Elrog 845s in a friends system, and based on that, he rolled the dice on the Elrog 300Bs as well.
If you have followed Rebbi's threads regarding driving his Ref 3A deCapos with a low power SET, you have seen caution issued by one of this forums most technically astute contributors, Almarg, with this pairing. After Rebbi's "satisfaction" with said pairing, he provided another astute set of observations that provided some basis in physics for why this pairing may indeed work.
As we used to say back in the chemistry lab, sometimes you just have to stop talking and run the d@Mn experiment.
There is another aspect that impacts all of us. The big gambler was the innovator who took a huge risk both in terms of money buy also in terms of the opportunity cost, i.e. the folks at Elrog. No one is going to take the risk of underwriting the cost of R&D, not to mention product launch, if we as consumers become overly risk adverse and won't try their products. We have to take some risk as well. The NOS well is running dry. The people with actual experience from the golden age of the 50's and 60's won't be with us much longer. It behoves us all to seize the moment.
I say folks try the tubes. If you don't like them, sell them. |
