Alex please don't build a SS only DAC. There are plenty out there already! Please listen to the Plus with a good tube like a 7316! |
regarding advantages or disadvantages of tubes in a dac.
i think it depends on whether the tube is in the buffer or gain stage.
it also depends upon the sensitivity of the circuit to changes in tubes.
outside of subjective preference, it would seem intuitive that the purpose of placing a tube in a dac is to enable a variable in the sound of the dac, as a function of the tube selected.
some audiophiles want to hear a different sonic perspective. having a tube in a component may facilitate that. |
I hasten to add, I do not agree with the statements of comparison of the EE to some other DACs here; I can't, as I have not yet heard it in comparison. :)
However, the Minimax DAC Plus when Opamp rolled is QUITE the different DAC from stock version. |
I just posted a separate thread detailing the proper Opamps and locations for them as recommended by Cimmaron Technology.
I agree; Alex Yeung should do an all out effort at a SS only Minimax DAC. |
The AD 8620 should NOT be used, the reason being;
On some forum there was a suggestion to use the AD8620. for positions U1 and U2. While this is a dual op-amp, it is only rated to use up to plus/minus 13 volts. The circuit in the EE Mini Max DAC and DAC Plus is plus/minus 15 volts. |
Removing the tube is the way to go. My friend found it superior in the midrange even after trying some nice borrowed tubes. In our estimation there was something "thick" sounding in the tube stage and changing tubes did not alter it.
He sold it because he prefered my Rega and the Centrance DACs. Part of the issue bugging him was that he bought a tube DAC and really ended up with SS. He did not get what he paid for, or at least didn't like it. I wonder what EE would have if they focused their efforts 100% on the SS stage...? A giant killer perhaps? As it stands the EE Minimax Plus is a good DAC for the money, but there are better ones depending on your system and needs.
Cheers,
Rob |
I'm an analog guy who received a DAC + over the holiday season. I have 1000+ CD's and wanted to see what the latest and greatest digital technology could do to improve my digital listening experience. I'm pleasantly impressed. I still greatly prefer listening to analog over digital but find my cd sessions a lot more enjoyable.
Like most of the folks who seem to have a DAC +, I prefer the DAC in SS and not tube mode (and I'm a huge tube guy). In SS mode the playback is more detailed and dynamic. If you use tubes in your preamp or amp I'm guessing you may already have enough warmth in your sound. Finally, I tried the tweak where you physically remove the tube from the DAC and that did seem to improve things as well. The soundstage seemed to click into place - everything seems much more solid and lifelike.
Overall, well worth the $1095 - especially if you have an older CD player and are coming to outboard DAC's for the first time. It helps breathes some extra life into your old CD collection. |
Hi Gianc,
I had read your comments regarding the DAC Plus. I have one also! It is a great DAC. :) I was wondering if you are still using the 2604s and 797s? What made you try them first? I put in LME49990s, and like them, but wondering is they are too fast? Had the 2604s in the dual section but pulled them when the 49990s arrived. Only gave the a few days. Are you thinking of trying different op-amps? I have 797s on order too. Using a CV4003 which is much better than the stock tube. Any other opinions welcome. IMO it is a very cool DAC! :)
regards
Bob |
I have confirmed the LME49990 should work fine with the Plus version, and I'm seeking a longer list. |
Just wanted to pass along my enthusiasm for a particular op amp. The Analog Devices AD8597 (single) AD8599 (dual). These op amps perform exceptionally in every piece of gear I've tried them in. They should work equally well in the EE.
http://www.analog.com/en/all-operational-amplifiers-op-amps/operational-amplifiers-op-amps/ad8597/products/product.html |
Tubegroover, even though it would make sense that all opamps which work with one unit might work with the other, a person should not risk it. That assumption could be drastically wrong given the circuit boards/circuit are not identical. The same nomenclature may be used and general pattern but the circuit might be different enough that any given inappropriate opamp might cause failure of the opamp or unit.
As I'm discussing it publicly I'm checking to ensure which are appropriate sets for the DAC Plus. I do not want there to be any chance of incompatibility. There are variances in opamps and it should be determined if those variances are within tolerance for the DAC Plus. I do not know those parameters which is why I am checking with those in the know.
There is vanishingly small chance of problems when the appropriate opamps are used with the proper unit; in fact, I know of no unit which has had problems when "approved" selections of opamps have been used. However, the use of a wrong opamp can have damaging effects; I believe others have pointed that out as well. I'm trying to cover all the bases and make sure no one has a negative surprise. It's not worth making an assumption and blowing a DAC. Better to get the word from designers/opamp experts and work from that.
I would liken it to the use of a 2 Cycle engine which must have a mix of oil and gas. If used inappropriately, with straight gas you'll ruin the engine. But if used correctly there is no danger. So also, owners should await the appropriate listing of opamps so that there is no chance of running the unit and damaging it. :) |
Doug, do you know the electrical parameters for the op-amps which is really what is required? It seems to me if some of the op-amps from the original work in the Plus they all should unless there is a voltage difference between the two that do not fall within the operating range of some of the op-amps, if not all of them. This seems another potential flash point in performing this tweek without knowing the parameters. |
Regarding Opamp rolling the EE Minimax DAC Plus; NOTE: I have been in contact with Morningstar Audio about the opamps used for the Plus version; It is not acceptable to simply use any of the opamps which worked for the original version.
For instnace, the LME49990 is not suitable for the Plus version of the Minimax DAC and could damage it. I am seeking a listing of appropriate Opamps for the Plus version and will post it when it is available.
I am posting this in several places as there are owners of the original DAC who may have opamp rolled, then secured the Plus version and may be interested in opamp rolling it. Please wait until a listing of appropriate opamps becomes available. One set which does work fine is the 8620/827 combination. :) |
>Shakey - what's your reason for doubting the value of their shoot out?<
Hmm...., where should I start?
Stereomojo reads like a website cobbled together by fifth graders. No, actually they might do a better job.
Atrocious spelling and grammar errors. Cheesy cut and paste graphics of scantily clad women. And writing skills that are best not even mentioned.
Clear enough?
Shakey |
The Stereomojo DAC shoot out was the old model of the MiniMAX |
Thank you Doug for the information. |
Tubegroover, yes, absoltely a lovely increase in weight and density with the 8620/827 combo I have rolled. I would expect similar incrase in density of images and various widening of soundstage, increase in clarity and micro/macrodynamics etc. with other Opamp combos rolled into the proper slots.
The 8620/827 combo was one of my top four or five favorites when I did my dozens of tests back when I opamp rolled the original unit. So, I went to that combo immediately instead of retracing all the way back to my beginning sets with the original unit. I'm very positively inclined toward the result. That's not to say this is the ultimate set by any means, and with any given system a different pairing might result in a more favorable mix of attributes. One set I might try yet is the hyper-detailed LME49990 in all locations it's one of the newer chips and it's clearly more distinct imo, but would likely depend on the rig whether it would be too bright. |
Hi Doug
So is what you are saying that changing out the op-amps adds weight and a maybe a densier tonality to the presentation of the Plus? |
Let's consider this my unofficial Opamp rolling discussion, seeing as how Morningstar has concerns about it.
I was so pleased with the results of Opamp rolling last night I am motivated enough to delay my morning workout a few minutes to pen, err... write... err, type this up.
Ah glorious joy! You can get the same benefit for the EE DAC Plus that was obtainable with the original via Opamp rolling! Alex Yeung has kept the circuit board it appears pretty much unchanged in regards to the four opamps, at least when it comes to Opamp rolling. i.e. the pairs are still labeled U1 & U2 and U6 & U7. They are located smack in the middle of the board in plain sight. They all are socketed (I was under the impression prior to the release of this unit that only two of the four would be socketed. With all four "rollable" this is terrific news for the audiophile community!).
Last night I rolled in 8620's into the U1/U2 positions and 827's into the U6/U7 positions. SWEET! Just like last time with the original, superb improvements. How superb? Game changing potential for an entire rig. You can literally take a system you do not like the sound of and with Opamp rolling turn it into one which you do like the sound.
Now, if it's too much trouble to secure a $4 tool, to protect against static, take a lid off the unit, pull out four Opamps and carefully push in four new ones - well, then so be it. Your loss. :(
Well, actually, it's not a loss as you will still have your wonderful sound of the stock unit - you just won't have anywhere near what this unit, or your system, could be.
With these new Opamps installed I pulled the tube out and ran it SS. With very little time in the assessment my first incination is that this maneuver failed the Law of Efficacy; I didn't hear a marked improvement over the quality with the tube in the socket. I'll probably repeat the test and may change my opinion; as I said, it was a quick take.
But the Opamp upgrade is something of which I would assert if you do so and cannot hear a difference then you have either a rig which is far below top quality sound to dig out the differences and/or hearing loss. There is a high degree of likelihood that if a person can't hear such a change as this then they do have hearing loss. I would also suggest that for such a person they not bother wasting their time on tweaks because that person will not hear them, their hearing deficiency will dictate that for them such things are not sufficient enough to perceive.
I would expect that for approx. 20% or even more of people coducting such a tweak as this Opamp rolling may not be able to hear the difference or consider it to be of little benefit. In fact, the benefit of this Opamp rolling is nearly exponential in terms of the potential to benefit a rig. The more "powerful" as in capable you rig is, the better the result will be and it can be every bit as compelling as a component or entire cable suite change.
Case in point, I built a system yesterday which has very fine components which no one with any experience in the high end would dismiss, yet the system was unsatisfactory, very thin and tilted to the top in an unacceptable manner. With only the Opamp change the rig's character completely changed such that this same pairing of gear was now far weightier, lush and approaching an ideal balance between the top/mid/bottom. That may sound incredible or unbelievable, but those who have Opamp rolled will nod in agreement; it certainly is possible.
An exercise like this should humble an audiophile to hear how much a rig can be improved by such seemingly (i.e. "I don't think it would make that much difference," you know, the classic arrogant line.) insignificant gestures. It also shows how much more can be wrested from a rig before throwing in the towel and swapping components. I'm not impressed by the majority of oddities posing as significant tweaks; this is not of the same ilk. This is a serious improvement worthy of the time/$.
But, hey, you've probably heard it before - IT WILL VOID YOUR WARRANTY! So, there you have it, the great spectre of fear and forbidding on one hand, the potential for glorious advancement on the other.
In reality the audiophile community should be discussing the stock original and Plus Minimax DACs and the Opamp enhanced ones nearly as different products, the change is so dramatic between them. While I have not compared the Minimax to some of the other currently hot DACs it is not to be concluded that if the stock unit falls short Opamp rolling would be of little use/benefit. That would be imo a very poor conclusion.
Finally, thanks to Gianc, who prodded me by his posts here on the Gon and was enthusiastically helpful to me in identifying the placement of the Opamps; saved me a lot of time and effort. Having rolled Opamps in the unit prior it took about five minutes or less to install the new ones. In addition, Gianc is one of the most genial of Audiogoners I've conversed with. :) |
Jult52 to give you a general answer, I would think that as with any component the design of the output and power supply would come into greater play than the chip used. In a budget product it isn't so much the chip used, relatively cheap compared to a more sophisticated power supply. I personally feel that the ess Sabre 9018 chip is certainly more resolving but having said that it will not overcome a compromised output and power supply that can be better implemented in a more expensive DAC. The bottom line is none of these budget products are giant killers although the W4S at a bit more in cost gives you a discrete regulated FET output with a well designed power supply, you get what you pay for. Notice the weight of the unit compared to a budget product where price is the major consideration. The proof is in the listening, you decide. |
Thank you Al for your feedback and I would also like to emphasize Foster9's comments. I have had some communication with Bill of Morningstar concerning just this practice. He has had a few issues with diyers poking inside the DAC and in some cases causing damage to the unit to his great concern. It seems to me that many are performing this tweek with little or no knowledge of precautions and procedures that should be used. I would caution DON'T do it unless you know what you are doing regardless of how seemingly simple it seems. If you want to change out op-amps and you are not technically savvy enough to understand the possible consequences, leave it to someone that knows. Regardless, the warranty becomes void. |
My guess is that a large majority of audiophiles have performed a variety of tasks on their expensive gear far more challenging than removing, then aligning, and inserting a chip or two. Many more have done this sort of thing routinely with their computer gear.
With that said, were you to have the slightest hesitation about approaching an opamp swamp, you should clearly refrain from so doing as an error will prove expensive and disappointing for the mistake prone. |
Among the conceivable rookie mistakes that Foster_9 wisely expressed concern about, and beyond the obvious ones like plugging the device in rotated 180 degrees, I would highlight the possibility of damage to the op amps, or degradation of their long-term reliability, as a result of failure to observe proper anti-static precautions. As is very common with integrated circuits, the datasheets for both the OPA2604 and the AD797 include cautionary statements about ESD (electrostatic discharge) sensitivity. That is especially important during the low humidity winter months.
Ideally that means doing the work with everything on a grounded anti-static mat, and while wearing a grounded anti-static wrist strap. Although as a minimum it may be adequate to just avoid doing the work on or near sources of static electricity such as carpeted surfaces, and to minimize or avoid touching any device pins or circuit points, and to touch a grounded metallic surface immediately before doing so, if it is necessary.
Regards,
-- Al |
Foster 9, I think that most people buying tube components expect a certain level of DIY. Robbob Robbob, your point is off the mark. "tube rolling" is one thing; as far as I know, tube rolling or even biasing is fairly common for many audiophiles with tube components. (even cleaning tube pins) "Opamp rolling," not so much. This is not common in the non-DIY sector of audiophiles. I haven't taken a poll, but I'm just sayin. Buying the right opamps, securing the tool, installing them correctly and the risks of the uninitiated will be uncharted waters for many, I would guess. This is the issue Morningstar has with those attempting to change out opamps, thus voiding the EE warranty and risking damage to the unit if someone makes a rookie mistake. |
That is an interesting question, especially since the tube removal would result with a lower load on the PS. Mind you how does tube output stage which I am sure is using much higher voltages than the SS both interact with each other. Someone with technical background and knowledge of the circuit is the only qualified person who can speculate as to what is happening when the tube load is removed. |
I wanted to bring up a broader issue that I've been wondering about. So the ESS 9018 Sabre Chip is the leading edge of chip technology. In that case:
1) Why do non-Sabre components like the Rega DAC and Sabre chip components like both Minimaxes and the W4S DACs yield results so close in terms of sound quality?
2) I saw an intriguing comment on HeadFi that speculated that the Minimax did not have the bulky power supply needed to really exploit the strengths of the ESS 9018. Anyone care to comment? |
Thanks, Doug. It looks like that Extraction Tool costs all of $4 so it's a worthwhile investment. |
I will try SS with tube removed on weekend. Mind you I do like having the option of both available at the press of a button.
Personally I found the opamp change easier than getting that dam tube out, I had to remove the top to wiggle the stock tube out. As for opamp rolling, I don't think it is wise to be swapping out the chips to many times, the more you fiddle around in there the more there is a chance of something going wrong. I can understand Morningstar's concern over this matter especially if someone has never done it before. It would be good if everyone could share their experience, like that if someone wants to try it he can make an educated guess as to which chips would most suit his tastes and system. |
Foster 9, I disagree that it's too DIY. One of the things which I feel separates this upgrade is that no knowledge of schematics or soldering is required, two things that are very DIY. It's literally "plug N Play" stuff we're discussing. I wouldn't promote it as a tweak for the masses if it was more difficult.
Jult52, the Opamps can be purchased from a variety of places; I wrote in the article about securing them from Cimarron Technology, which makes the Brown Dog Adapters for the double Opamps. But others have discussed online at places like Audiocircle alternatives.
The pricing on Opamps for the original unit for 4 of them from Cimarron ranged from about $40-90 depending on brands/model. It seems the primary factor in cost is how old the opamp design. From my article re: the tool... "Opamp extraction device called “DIP/IC Extraction Tool - S-340” made by Jonard Industries Corp. from Digikey.com" |
Foster 9,
I think that most people buying tube components expect a certain level of DIY. My friend has, for now, abandoned the Minimax Plus and is using the ARC and Centrance DACs. He continues to report that the Centrance midrange is the best of anything he's heard and I agree.
Meanwhile my Rega continues to sound better and better. I am upgrading IC soon and adding a better PC. I've heard it's quite sensitive to power cables and it certainly sounded too bright with the inexpensive Pangea I tried.
Happy Holidays!
Rob |
One other factlet - the Rega DAC has an output impedance of 600 ohms, which is surprisingly high for a ss DAC (info source is Rega itself via dealer). I was actually leaning towards getting one until I saw that spec and have nixed the idea since I am a passive preamp user.
Two questions for Doug and Gianc: what is the general range of cost for these new opamps? And what is the name of the specific instrument used for opamp rolling? |
I just read that Stereomojo DAC shoot out and it was pretty interesting. The Minimax DAC came in second behind the $5k Lampizator.
Shakey - what's your reason for doubting the value of their shoot out? |
This is too much to get involved in for someone wanting to simply enjoy quality playback of music and not become a modification diy person. |
Gianc, ah, very good; thanks for the timely response! The clear indications of location and numbering were precisely what I was looking for - thank you!
It sounds like you have some Opamps which have the legs splayed out a bit; yes, you have to settle them in carefully prior to applying the gentle pressure to seat them. It's good that the numbering has stayed the same between the Plus and the original unit; makes things less confusing.
As cheap as the opamp extraction tool is I strongly recommend it over toothpicks and pliers. Remember, the average person has some trepidation about this anyway, so stuffing crude tools into the unit is not recommended imo. I understand if you have experience and feel comfortable with it, but many would see that advice and perhaps shy away from the attempt. Others are more clumsy and might damage something with a larger tool. It's always best to use the right tool. Case in point, the socket for the opamp can be pulled/damaged if one latches onto it rather than the opamp base. It would be harder to ensure you have the opamp and not the base when pulling if you have a needle nose pliers. The extraction tool has a little bent end which is placed right under the opamp whereas the pliers are straight - a greater risk of pulling on the socket. This is just an observation for those without experience.
Interesting idea with the razor and scraping the legs prior to insertion; I'll not endorse that officially but it's creative and certainly makes sense that it would make for a better connection, like getting corrosion off of speaker cable spades, etc.
Gainc, so, why not remove the tube now, with the upgraded Opamps, and see if there is an improvement in the SS output? I most certainly will try that. Again, as if it hasn't been said enough(to the general public)... at your own risk. I think the other interesting tweak was to remove the tube Opamps and run the unit completely SS. When I tried them the tube removal with the tube Opamps in the unit was the best result.
Knowing myself I likely will be opamp rolling several sets again, but at least its easy work for exceptional results. :)
Once again, I'm not speaking here in any offical capacity for Dagogo.com or Morningstar Audio. Bill at Morningstar doesn't mind my futzing personally but wants it universally known that all these activities are beyond the scope of the warranty. So, let no one mess up a unit - i.e. by taking a pliers to it - and then come running back to Morningstar feigning need for a repair due to some defect. It's sad that I have to say that, but with the last unit there were some who tried some home surgery and then went to Bill to seek reparations. We need people with more integrity than that. |
Do you think anyone would be daring enough to post a youtube video on how to change the opamps. I would love to do it but would definitely feel more comfortable actually seeing it. |
>Stereomojo did a DAC shootout last year. The original Minimax, in SS mode, was preferred over it's tube mode by the blind listening panel, which suprised them all.<
You are joking, no? I would rather trust Consumer Reports with a DAC shootout...
Shakey
|
Stereomojo did a DAC shootout last year. The original Minimax, in SS mode, was preferred over it's tube mode by the blind listening panel, which suprised them all. |
When facing the front of the dac the opamps will have the lettering upside down to you. The lettering on the opamps will be facing the back of the dac. All references for now on will be assuming you are facing the front of the dac. Each opamp will have its designation to the right as U1 and U2 for the duals, U6 and U7 for the singles. There is a dimple on the opamps which matches up to the white outline printed on the circuit board on the right side of each opamp. When removing the stock opamps gently wiggle one side and then the other until it lifts out. There is a special tool for this but a needle nose pliers and a gentle hand works just as good. Another method is to use a wooden or plastic toothpick, just slide it under one side and gently lift up, and then do the same for the other side, it should come loose quite easily. The trick is to not lift one side too much which results in bending the legs. Just lift a little on one side and then the other going back and forth, it should lift out without distorting any of the legs. Before inserting the new opamps get a razor blade and gentle scrape the legs until you see bright shiny metal and take care not to transfer any oil or sweat from your hands on to the metal legs. You may need to pinch the legs so that they are not so far apart and line up with the sockets just right. Place the opamp onto the socket and check that all legs are lined up with the holes before pressing down. Just do a light press so that all the legs begin to engage into the sockets, now check all of them again before pressing down a second time only firmer now to fully insert the opamp. Now before plugging the dac back in and switching the dac on double check again, the lettering will be upside down and the dimples will be on the right side when viewed from the front.
So far I have only tried the OPA 2604 for the duals (U1, U2) and AD 797 for the singles (U6, U7). I believe U1 and U2 are in the circuit for both the tube and solid state. U6 and U7 is only for the solid state. I think you will be quite pleased with the results.
|
Ok, Gianc, you're the expert now! Kindly let us know the numbering of the Opamp sockets where the single and dual opamps to be replaced go.
Please be extremely specific in regards to the location of the sockets on the board and the numbering of the sockets with which Opamps (single/dual). Much appreciated!
Also, for the sake of getting it right the first time, please confirm the orientation of the opamp to the front of the unit. Again, appreciated.
Sounds like I've got some Opamp rolling to do! Good thing I held on to that tube I removed... ;) |
I have been listening to my Minimax Plus for a couple of weeks now and I just thought I would add some comments about my experience with the dac. I can tell you that my initial response was that it was a big mistake getting it without first hearing it, sounded not to impressive at first. I agree with the comments that the tube output does not sound as good as the solid state with the stock configuration of the dac. This dramatically changes once you upgrade both single and dual socketed opamps and also change the tube. The opamps I am using are the AD797 for the single and OPA2604 for the dual. Even the stock tube sounds better once the 2604's are put in and the AD797 takes the solid state to a completely new level. I eventually swapped out the stock tube with a Electro-Harmonix and that is when things completely changed for the tube section. The choice between the solid state output and tube output is now a much more difficult choice as to which is better, since each has its strengths and the choice will vary from individual to individual I am sure. I can say without a doubt now that the Minimax is an outstanding dac and that it can be the front end of a system that has much more expensive components downstream. Until you hear the dac with the upgraded opamps and tube, you have not heard what the Minimax is capable of, I have been blown away how much better it sounds in this configuration. |
Mrtennis....agreed it will cost you nothing.
The issue I and my friends have is that the tube DAC's having nothing "tube-like" in their character that we can hear. All of that tube sound comes from the amps and pre amps. Try pulling the tube (later on when you're done with the new tube) and spend some time listening. The Minimax gains too much sans tube to be ignored.
Still, even with the tube engaged, the Minimax still sounds pretty much like the other SS DACs we listened to. The tonal character is the same. The differences are of the "hard" variety....high frequencies, soundstage and midrange transparency. When I say "hard differences" I mean they are not really up for debate as anyone could hear them.
My old Thorens turntables never had tubes and the Rega/Mac combo sounds a lot like 'em!
Rob |
i have not yet removed the tube.
however, my penchant for a classic tube sound leads me to believe that no solid state component can recreate a classic tube sound.
the modern tube sound is different, much less colored and i would admit that it would be possible that i could appreciate a solid state design that does not exhibit any peaks in the treble, forwardness in the midrange, has sufficient depth and is characterized by a relative accurate sense of timbre. i could live with the afforementioned presentation.
the next time i listen to the minimax dac whose signal comes from a ps audio perfect wave transport, via coax, i will report my results. i am open minded and am willing to admit if i like the sound as well as what i hear.
it costs me nothing to check it out. |
I'm curious if Mrtennis has removed the tube yet
My cop out for not doing it yet is I'm waiting for the Psvane tube to burn and settle in first |
MrTennis....great that you are enjoying your system and I have no doubt that it's excellent sounding. I think most of the systems owned by members here vary from very good to outstanding. But we all have different goals with our systems. Some seek that live sound, others want HF resolution even if it makes for a bright system and others prefer a rolled off experience which they find less fatiguing. It's why there are so many variations of DACs, Speakers, power cables...and mustard!
I like my mustard transparent, details and just a bit spicy!
Rob |
i have changed tubes and heard differences, my favorite is the brimar 12au7. i have yet to remove the tube. i suppose that i should do that. however, i suspect the level of resolution will not be what i am looking for. |
The question is simple: Have you done any experimentation with the Minimax Plus in SS and tube mode or done any tube rolling? What did you hear? In the end there's just one person to please and that's you! 12-07-11: Robbob Regarding your question to Mrtennis, he owns the original Minimax DAC not the Minimax DAC Plus. |
12-06-11: Mrtennis
i have never heard a solid state digital product sound better, to my ears, than a "tube" digital product, provided the appropriate tube is selected. Others may not share the same thought since everyone not only has different sets of ears but hears differently as well. Robbob and Charles1dad have made good points. |
Rob,
Good answer to Mr tennis.
All that matters is what sounds best to "you", everything else is secondary.You must trust your ears, if not this pastime can lead to a lot of frustration and angst. |
MrTennis,
I do agree that the tube DACs sound different, but I do not find them Euphonic in any manner consistant with what I expect from tubes. Mainly what I hear from them is a midrange that is LESS transparent and thicker to the point that it is distracting. In fact there is nothing tube-like in their sound that I find pleasing as I do with my Manley tube amp or my previous Rogue gear.
The Minimax Plus is a excellent DAC that allows one to hear this 1st hand. The fact that the original Minimax exhibited some of the same weaknesses with my system as the Plus version in the owner's system points to something I attribute to the tube stage. In SS mode these DACs are sweet, detailed and balanced right out of the gate. This evening the owner of the Plus called me to say that the DAC is so good in SS mode he really has no desire to take it further, except to see if he can topple my Rega!
The question is simple: Have you done any experimentation with the Minimax Plus in SS and tube mode or done any tube rolling? What did you hear? In the end there's just one person to please and that's you! What I hear or think should be of passing interest at best. If you like the DAC with the tube "on" then you're good-to-go. With so many variables it's unlikely to get a consensus and even if everyone agrees, that should not effect your own conclusions should they be different.
My Rega continues to burn in and it's now sounding better than ever. I've never heard such analogue sound from digital sources before. And I can't believe the low costs of these DACs. It's a great time for this hobby I think.
Rob |
tubegrover, you make an excellenet point about modern tube gear.
but hypothetically, if you could create the sound of the 60's, as you yhave apltly described, using certain tubes placed in a tube dac, would you concede that no solid state dac could sound that way ?
it is my objection to solid state digital products that i have heard have an unmistakable character that is easy to observe.
i would therefore say, that it is possible to discern the difference between a solid state digital product and one which uses tubes, especially if there are tubes in the gain stage of the dac section. |
