I was wondering if anyone have try this cable? I have never try the original WE cable but I want to buy this cable for my speaker. Other candidate is supra cable.
I compared Duelund DCA16GA and DCA20GA as RCA interconnects. Yes
DCA16GA has fuller base and lover mid and less dry, but DCA20GA sound much more vivid. So it depends from overall system tonal balance. In some dark sounded or dull systems
DCA20GA can sound better and DCA16GA can sound better in dry or bright systems.
I plan to make one last pair of speaker cables using Duelund 12ga wire twisted as bi-wire pairs (i.e., one 12 awg wire to each speaker terminal) and KLEI bananas all around. I look forward to hearing the result.
It would be smart to simply use one run of the Duelund 12 gauge instead of doubling up. You should find this improves the sense of air and resolution and backs off a tad on the bloom etc...
You guys got me playing with speaker cables again this morning. I had been using my Furutech FP-Alpha cables, which are great but the tinned copper WE and Duelund wire does bring something different to the table. I have been comparing 1M long runs (from my monoblocks) of the WE10ga wire vs. the Duelund 12ga wire. Both cables are bi-wired with four connections at the speaker end and two connections (one pos and one neg) at the amp end. However, the configurations are a bit different with the WE 10ga cables run as two twisted pairs (i.e., 4 wires to each speaker) while the Duelund 12ga cables are two twisted quads that are cross-connected in a star-quad configuration, so 8 wires to each speaker. The aggregate wire area is close with each terminal seeing 10awg from the WE wire and each terminal seeing 9awg from the Duelund wire.
Both of the tinned copper wire cables are a bit fuller sounding than the Furutech, which is OCC wire at 13 awg, also run bi-wired so 13 awg to each terminal. I am hard-pressed to describe much difference between the WE and Duelund cables as they both share similar characteristics. The WE cables may be a bit more midrange-concentric and maybe just a touch more tidy with respect to soundstage but also maybe a bit more resolute in the bass. The Duelund cables, in the configuration described, is fuller sounding but also extends maybe just a bit more at the top end than the WE cables. The Duelund has a bit more bloom (on the edge of too much), which also makes the bass a bit "plumper." I should make a set of the Duelund cables as twisted pairs without doubling up in a quad run to see if they would sound more like the WE wires. (Bill, maybe we could do a temporary swap of a pair of cables to try them out, with you loaning me a bi-wire set of the Duelund cables you are making and I sending you my quad set of Duelunds to try - interested?)
Regarding connectors, I use Furutech spades at the speaker end but had originally used Furez spades at the amp end to accommodate the larg'ish quad of 12 awg Duelund wire but I was able to change them out for Furutech spades, which I like a little better.
I am still interested in bananas but in addition to the KLEI bananas, I am looking at Furutech's
FP-200B(G) Bananas, which are made from phosphor bronze but have a simple set screw connection, like their FP-201 spades.
Thanks Bill, that sounds promising. I see on their website the bananas can be used with wire as thick as 6 awg. I burn in cables on my Audiodharma Cable Cooker so hopefully any brightness would be short-lived.
Yes I have used those connectors when making some cable harnesses for my living voice speakers. The interesting thing is I made the harnesses with bare wire and listened that way for about a month before Using the connectors. I can tell you the differences between bare wire and these connectors! At first the KLEI banana connectors sounded just a little bit brighter than bare wire. However this did go away after about 100 to 150 hours of use. I will tell you that I thought the connectors did not add or subtract anything from the bare wire. This is a very good thing in my opinion. And actually this is the first connector I can honestly say is as good as bare wire. Just be aware that it may sound a tad bit brighter first but that will go away with time.
@grannyring and others, have any of you used the
KLEI Harmony Banana plugs for your speaker cables (Duelund or WE)? I have exclusively used spades in the past but these interest me. Would be interested in opinions about how they sound and what is the largest gauge wire they will support using.
Just have build two pair of cables with the Duelund DCA16GA. One with the Duelund RCA Copper Plug the other with the KLEI Absolute Harmony plugs.
The Duelund RCA Copper Plug sounded from the start much better. More Air, bigger sound stage, tonal more correct. Things got better after more hours of playing time. More smoot transients. One very nice set of cables. A keeper for shure.
Same cable with the KLEI Absolute Harmony plugs started of with a more bloated and heavy bass. Soundstage was messy and more compact. Focals where more in the front but not well ballanced in the total soundstage. The burn-in time is long (400 hours KlE claims on there site). I have not writtem them of yet, but I have to find a way to get a few 100 hours on them without havving to suffer listening to them...it is not the Cable but a match wit this plug and also my set.
Who have tried the rodium version of the Duelund RCA?
"Well im converted! Just got the Deuland 16ga and can see what all the fuss is about. Amazing stuff. So analog and non electronic sounding!" VERY NICE. In what position are you using the Duelund?
Sorry, just saw this. Yes the SLVR as the gold version was just discontinued. Pretty much the same connector as the outer barrel is just silver plated instead of gold. I did not try the Duelund, but would be interesting. The Switchcraft is not as smooth, resolute or nuanced as the KLEI. The Switchcraft is a great value for sure and they sound very good and balanced. They are a tad nervous sounding compared to the KLEI however. This is a slight thing, but this quest for the best sound is about degrees. Ha!
The 16 gauge Duelund has all the detail of the 20 gauge, but a quick comparison to the 20 gauge can make one think the 20 ga is more detailed. Its’s just that the 16ga is more complete with improved weight and body. Listen to both over a two week period and it becomes obvious that the 16ga has all the detail, but it is presented with more top to bottom balance. The upper frequency details don’t leap out for attention, but rather draw you into the music in a more nuanced and natural manner. I also believe there are system and listener preferences that must be understood for the best choice.
The Cardas line of RCAs gives nice touch of natural warmth and smoothness. I have found the KLEI Absolute Harmony to be very neutral and resolving.
I used Switchcraft, MSaudio, Vampire C7X, Xhadow RCA-SM, Duelund Gold RCA connectors. I don't like Vampire C7X - it imphases high frequencies and have overall bright tonal balance. MSaudio has great high frequencies and high-mids, but has a gap between mid-frequencies and base. Duelund Gold and Switchcraft sound well balanced. My first impression was, Switchcraft sounds more grainy and Duelund more smooth. I just ordered Switchcrafts to double check it versus Duelund again.
Xhadow sound is very "audiophile". It is smooth, transparent with big sound-stage, open and airy high-frequencies and big base. But mid-range is not as good as Duelund has.
I prefer Duelund 16ga to 20ga cable for interconnects. It sounds more balanced and dynamic. But it has lack of air and high-frequency details.
I'm planing to use Duelund cables from Werner Jagusch crossover to Altec 604E like you suggest in the future. (I'm using Belden 9497 cables).
I changed HF filter capacitor in Werner Jagusch crossover to Duelund RS + Duelund Cu-Sn Bypass capacitors. It was the best upgrade I did in my system for years.
"I have a similar speakers setup - Altec 604E + Werner Jagusch Crossover with Belden 9497 between crossovers and drivers. I started to use DCA16GA as speakers cables and I like results. I also try to use DCA20GA interconnects and I feel they sound a little bit thin, dry and lacking of lushness." What kind of RCA plugs do you use with your Duelund cable interconnects? Hi Alex- I haven't gotten too serious with the Duelund interconnects yet. I only have a 1.0 meter (NON-shielded) run terminated with SwitchCraft RCA's. I have not put this through it's paces in an important spot yet. I have played with it (break in...) going from a Sony PS-1 to my Croft phono integrated. I can't make a fair judgement because the gain (output) of the Sony player is too low for the passive PRE in the Croft. The 16 gauge speaker cables have been wonderful going from my Werner XO to 846A drivers... Easily preferred them to Belden 9497. I may return to my Duelund 16 gauge IC for my Harbeth system at one point. Not sure if the lack of shielding will be ok, but may try from a Step-Up in to the Croft MM. I'm still in the process of adding that Step-up, at which point that Harbeth system will be complete.
I've just installed WE 10AWG in my system. Out of curiosity. I have "good" speaker cables and didn't plan to replace them. All I have to say is I'm impressed. And the cables are not burned in. How long is the burn in period? What should I expect, what improvement did you experience when the burn in had been completed? Thx
I have a similar speakers setup - Altec 604E +
Werner Jagusch Crossover with
Belden 9497 between crossovers and drivers. I started to use
DCA16GA as speakers cables and I like results. I also try to use
DCA20GA interconnects and I feel they sound a little bit thin, dry and lacking of lushness. What kind of RCA plugs do you use with your Duelund cable interconnects?
Just finished making a pair of bi-wire speaker cables from the Duelund 12ga wire. I have a cross-connected star quad going to the LF and HF of each speaker (8 wires per speaker or 6 awg per pole). Getting the four 12ga wires attached to a single connector was a bear. I tried soldering them but quickly learned that a solder pot would be necessary because the four 12 awg wires twisted together were too thick to solder using an iron or gun. Fortunately, I had a couple of pairs of Furez SP8 SB60NP Bare Copper Spade Speaker Connectors that take up to 4 awg sized wire (the four 12ga wires were equivalent to 6 awg) and attach using two set screws. I used Furutech's FP-201 G High Performance Spades at the speaker ends, which also connect using two set screws. They have been burning in on the Cable Cooker for a day so I will report back as to how they sound next week. In the meantime, I am getting some very good sounds using another of my DIY speaker cables made from braided high quality copper wire in cotton sleeving.
I recently had Parts Connexion make a 1M phono cable for me out of the Duelund wire and Duelund gold RCAs, w/ 1877 DIN. This replaces my Discovery Plus 4.
I was hoping for a slight improvement.. to my surprise, I was greeted with a much wider center stage, more open soundstage, richer textures and a richer tonality. Bang for the buck? That's with no break-in.
Just received enough Duelund 12ga to make a pair of speaker cables with 8 single runs to each speaker, or a cross-connected quad to each of the two bi-wire binding post pairs on each speaker - 6 awg per +/- pole per speaker, or 9 awg to each mf/hf post and 9 awg to each lf post - can't wait to hear them
I've been thinking of combining two sets of DCA16GA for a 10GA run. Has anyone done this? If so, what was the result. I'm using a single run of DCA16GA now. My speakers only have one pair of posts, so I won't be biwiring.
I finally got off my lazy behind, and tried the Duelund 16GA bare wire between my Werner Jagusch Crossover, and Altec Valencia drivers. It's in the early going, but I'm really impressed. Compared to my Belden 9497, it is more lively, yet still extremely natural. It makes the 9497 sound restricted, and a tad sluggish.This, to my ears, and in my system. When I tried that same Duelund on on my Harbeth P3's, I was not nearly as impressed. In that application, I preferred my Auditorium. The latter, of course, at a much higher price point. But the Duelund is really supposed to be great with high efficiency speakers. I'm really digging it. Below is the impression of another person who has experience with Duelund.......... DCA16GA tends to be a bit more balanced on the frequency spectrum, DCA20GA adds a bit of upper end detail, DCA26GA adds a bit more mellow bass................... I'm trying decide between the 16GA and 20GA!
I need a lot of cable, about $400-500. If I buy for a start 3 meters 16AWG and listen to it as interblock, I will be able to get a complete picture of the sound of this wire or as acoustic they will behave differently?
My Duelund DCA16GA should arrive later this week and if it sounds better than the WE 10ga ( and I don't doubt it does) I'll be in heaven. I'm also using the Neotech connectors......easy to install and sound great. Thanks to the likes of Bill and Jeff Day for promoting these amazing cables.
Thanks grannyring. I have have some of the Duelund 16GA at home. It’s cut to 4-single wire (10 ft) runs. I tried it in my second system (Croft phono integrated/ Harbeth P3’s) , and preferred my Auditorium 23 speaker cable to the Duelund. No shame for the Duelund of course, as it sells for a fraction of the price. In my main system (Shindo & Altec Valencia 846A), I use an outboard crossover (Werner Jagusch) from Germany. I’m using Belden 9497 to connect the crossover to woofer and horn on each speaker. I may try the above Duelund in place of the Belden in that application? I would have to cut the 10 ft runs in half to make that work. If I do this, is that an ideal configuration? I have heard Duelund users mention Double (or shotgun?) runs. I did have a well respected cable tech terminate a non-shield pair of Duelund 16GA interconnect for me, but I only use it every so often for digital in a mini system. I only need interconnect for my turntable > SUT and then from SUT > phono stage, and doubt that’s a good place for a non-shielded interconnect.
The Duelund wire is better sounding than the WE. It makes a great IC and speaker cable. It has nice natural warmth and full bodied sound while giving more life and reality to music vs the WE.
No synthetic materials like the WE and the Duelund is also cryo treated.
Anybody try the WE interconnect? These is a seller for the WE on this site, who also sells the Belden IC... It sells for a bit over $200, but still reasonable as far as cables go. All of this IMO, of course... Cheers -Don
@grannyring Bill, Is it your experience that the 12 gauge Duelund offers similar warmth, weight, and body of the WE, along with more air, and high frequency bloom?
BTW, thanks for the tip on the Neotech connectors.
Get the Duelund 12 gauge and terminate with the Neotech solder-less connectors from Sonic Craft. Your 16 gauge needs another 80 hours of burn to fill out as an FYI.
I've been using the WE 16 gauge for a couple of years. I've recently added Tekton D.I.'s and a Had Inspire 7 watt SEP amp. Feeling I needed some more high frequency bloom, I purchased the DCA 16 and after about 34 hours of use it is a little more extended on top, but lacking some body and robustness in the lower regions. Today I just ordered the WE 10 gauge, but could not get enough for a double run.
So with that a couple of questions. Has anyone tried combining a WE, and a DCA for a double run, or is that a really dumb idea?
Since for now I can't get enough WE 10 for a double run, what about combining my 16 with the 10 being shipped this week for more extension on top?
And the last question I could use help with for now is with a double run on the D.I.'s binding post with no hole in the middle, and for me needing to use the posts, any ideas on best ways to terminate with a thicker bare wire on that type of post?
Recently I put my Belden 8402 ICs back in my system from the preamp to the amplifiers (still using Duelund 20ga between DAC and preamp). I was surprised that I did not seem to hear any of the drawbacks I previously heard with that wire. It retained the full, tonally rich sound that is consistent with all of the tinned, stranded wires I have tried, and it seemed to be suitably extended and did not lose control when played (plenty) loud. I looked at the construction and believe there is really only one main potential flaw to the 8402 being the use of EPDM rubber insulation. The only reason I can think to use that material is for flexibility as a commercial microphone cable but maybe you guys have a better idea of their reason for that design choice. I then looked at Belden's extensive catalog and ordered some 8422, which is mostly the same cable as 8402 but for two main differences, the conductors are 22 awg instead of the 20 awg in the 8402, and the insulation in the 8422 is polyethylene instead of rubber in the 8402. The strand size is the same and both are tinned. I will take the chance that there will be no detriment to the slightly smaller conductors for the hopefully positive trade-off going from rubber to polyethylene. The 22 awg may actually be a bit better extended without losing body and tonal density. The polyethylene should be a superior insulation with a much lower dielectric constant. I actually like polyethylene (preferably foamed) better than Teflon, which I find to impart a high frequency sheen that is a bit unnatural sounding to me. I have always believed there are advantages to using manufactured wire for interconnects because of the more consistent winding and spacing. Hopefully, I will receive the wire and be able to make a set or two this weekend.
Hi joey54, I have been doing this for awhile so have read a lot of information and constructed a variety of cables, some that sound pretty good and others not so much. For information, you can search both this site and over at Audio Asylum in the Cable Asylum, particularly articles by Jon Risch (you can search by author over there). Goals for speaker and power cables are mostly low inductance and low resistance. Goals for ICs include low capacitance and EMI/RFI rejection while low resistance is not as important for ICs.
A posting by Jon Risch at AA gives this basic information for twisted pair XLR ICs;
For XLR to XLR, twisted pairs should be constructed like this: pin 2 to pin 2, pin 3 to pin 3 for the twisted pair wires, THEN, the shield to pin 1 of the source component. This SHOULD work for true balanced gear, but some is not true balanced, and a ground reference connection must be made, in this case, wrap a 16 gauge tinned stranded hookup wire around the OUTSIDE of the shield braid, and connect to pin 1 at both ends. This will help keep any ground currents from interfering with the two differential pairs, and minimize cable capacitance.
BTW, as for all DIY twisted pairs, I recommend spacing the shield briad AWAY from the twisted pairs using a high quality insulation, and then oversized braid for a shield covering.
Better XLRs do help, but the industry standard Neutrik and Switchcraft are pretty decent, it is the other cheapo brands of XLR’s that you have to watch out for adversely afecting the sound.
So, the design I used consisted of a twisted pair, to reduce EMI/RFI, spacing material to keep the shield away from the conductors, a braid shield connected at the source end only to further reject EMI/RFI, a ground wire outside of the shield that is of a larger gauge than the signal wires, tech flex, heat shrink, and high quality connectors.
If you dig deeper into design options, you might find some believe there are benefits to spacing the signal cables away from each other a certain distance. Risch from AA did this by using cores of coaxial cables that are surrounded by foamed dielectric material, others do this by a variety of methods, including laying the wires flat with a consistent spacing between packing tape or sewed into material. Most manufactured ICs (if not coax) are a simple twisted pair, or multiple wires twisted around a core, because those designs are easier to mass-manufacture. Wires twisted around a core is the basis for DIY ICs you can read about at the VH Audio website. Consistency in spacing is important. Good luck whatever you choose to do.
@mitch2 Curious where you found the info on constructing a set of balanced cables using the Duelund cable? I am using the 16ga for speaker cables but not for interconnects as my system needs balanced interconnects. I am not that handy when it comes to soldering and have not tried to make interconnects. I tried a set in RCA and liked them but they don’t sound right with my current integrated, Ayre AX-7e. Any info is appreciated. Thanks!
well, I ordered the Oyaide Black Mamba V2 from Rakuten on Jan. 1st but it never shipped. I guess they require you to confirm the order after actually ordering the product. I got an email after ordering the product, I didn't read it, I just though it was your typical confirmation email after you buy something. But I guess they actually require you to email them back to confirm the order. Kind of vague to me. So for anyone else trying to buy this, just a heads up. I guess it will be a another 9 or 10 days before I get it.
Just finished a mini shoot-out comparing 3.5M long balanced (XLR) ICs made from Duelund 20 ga wire with ICs of the same length and construction method but made with WE 16 ga wire. The ICs connect my Metrum Pavane Level 3 DAC with my SMc preamp.
The construction consists of twisted pair conductors covered with a low-noise spacer layer then a tinned copper braid-shield connected at the source end only and a counter-spiraled ground wire of a larger gauge than the signal wires and connected at both ends. Clean-cut TechFlex covers the whole assembly. Connectors are the Furutech FP-601/602 (G).
A third, control IC that I am very familiar with consisted of Furutech's highly rated
U-p2.1 balanced interconnect that uses 19 awg stranded Alpha-PCOCC conductors in special foamed PE insulation.
In end, the DIY ICs made from the Duelund 20 ga wire were preferred. It was sort of a Goldilocks type of thing where the WE 16 ga wire was just a little too rich-sounding and midrange-centric, while the Furutech wire was nicely extended but didn't quite have the warmth and glowing tonal presentation of the two DIY ICs that both use tinned copper wire. The 20 ga Duelund wire was "just right" with a very nice blend of richness, warmth, detail, and extension, as well as that great tonal quality that folks like about the tinned copper Duelund and WE wire.
All three sets of ICs had been conditioned for days on my Audiodharma Cable Cooker and all three sets sounded very nice - I could live with any of them. Unfortunately, my shoot-out still does not answer questions regarding Duelund vs. WE wire since the both of those had similar characteristics and I cannot say for sure whether the differences I heard were due to the differences in the wire and dielectric materials between Duelund and WE, or simply due to the difference between the gauge of the two wires (i.e., 20 awg Duelund wire vs. 16 awg WE wire).
It will take 7-10 days to receive when shipped. I have a full loom of Oyaide Black Mamba V2 and be prepared to hear more ambiance/subtle cues, deeper/wider sound-stage, lower floor noise, vivid images, tighter bass and a cleaner view into sound-stage with precision...
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
