I'm very happy with a pair of Helix Image Air RCA interconnects (per the recipe, except XLRs on one end) and power cable. Both connected into my 45-type single-ended triode amp. The PC is connected to the wall (with Oyaide recptacle), while the previous PC was connected into my balanced power conditioner. Both Helixes have been broken in enough hours to "sound good" per @williewonka indications above, and indeed they sound good. Definitely keepers!
I'm now considering the speaker cables and wanted to ask if there are any active DIY speaker owners here using Helix speaker cables and what's your experience between running the Helix cables right into the driver connectors vs running them to binding posts and what internal wiring you use? Helix geometry or regular? Maybe it doesn't make a difference.
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@mbolek I look forward to your report on the usage of the wire.
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@mbolek The Threads been quiet for a while, I have a question for you.
Did you receive your PC CCC Wire Order?
If yes, has it been used and you have formed an assessment of it.
I have now been able to have been demonstrated the wire in use, from Source to Speaker on a friends system who I introduced to the wire.
The Vinyl LP as a Source on my friends system, now has developed to the wire being in use as an internal Tonearm Cable, Interconnects with Selected Low Eddy Connections on the Cables and Phonostage Chassis, Internal Phonostage Hook Up wire and the Power Cord, the Speaker Cables are also using the same wire.
This is a system I am very familiar with, and when presented as the system owner had wanted it to be heard, it was without doubt, the best I have ever heard this system.
I was gobsmacked at how a Cable that sounded very good when demonstrated, was shown to be presenting as quite inferior when compared to the same Cable ng with a different RCA Connector, especially a RCA selected for the Low Eddy Properties. This is indescribable and is needed to be experienced.
When the exchanges were carried out, the Low Eddy Signal Path was able to present Notes and Vocals with a Envelope Shaping, in a manner I don't ever recall being able to perceive.
The system owner has also made it known, the wire has created such a positive impression, if the wire could be discovered to be purchased in a gauge to suit a MC Coil, they would send a Ortofon Cart' away as a Donor Cart', to a rebuild service, to have the Aucurum Wire replaced with it. That is quite a serious move toward this wire type in anybody's assessment.
The wire is available in very fine gauge 0.03mm as a Screening Mesh, but is only found in assembled cables, a 0.18mm is the finest I know of in a stranded wire.
Finally received the Acoustic Revive PC CCC. I'll look at building a Helix based XLR and see how it compares to one of Steve's variations. I don't think I strip off the insulation and just pull the conductors apart and do a simple twist for +/- signal. Ground using the Helix wrap. Will use AECO XLRs.
Each conductor is 19awg, so don't know if this one would be a good candidate for speaker cables.
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@mbolek - This goes back to the days when I used stranded wire for both neutral and live/signal wires
I'm not so sure it is still applicable to cables that now use solid wires for the Live/Signal conductors
Regards
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Steve,
Not sure what you mean by "this orientation"
- are your referring to the rwo stranded live and neutral wires
- or the bare wire inside teflon tube ?
I was referring to the first one. Two stranded L/N wires.
Also with speaker cables. I used to always twist in the same direction. Tried several with opposite twist and continue to do this now. Can't confirm that is does make a difference...
Marty
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That's pretty much what I settled on, although I added a little time due to the gauge of the double/double.
While building these cables, which is about the 4th set of cables I have made using KLE RCAs, I finally found a pretty good method of terminating them.
I tinned the wires after twisting them together and then filed the end of the tinned wires into a male point with a taper that matched that of the female "V" of the KLE tabs. I then tinned the bare part of the wires that were filed as well as the "V" on the RCA. Then, I used my soldering "helping hands" to hold both pieces and used the arms of the helping hands to apply pressure to the pieces, pushing them together, and then soldered as usual. I feel that applying pressure pushes the wire into contact with the "V" during soldering, making the two parts physically touch each other, resulting in a better connection.
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@ketchup ....
Interconnects
- 60+ hours to sound good
- allow up to 250 hours to sound their best
Speaker Cables
- 40+ hours to sound good
- allow up to 200 hours to sound their best
Power Cables
- 40 + hours to sound good
- 100 Hours to sound their best
All cables start off sounding great, but they tend to sound a little rough after around the 15-20 hours mark and then they get better
Hope that helps - Steve
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@ketchup - I have tried a few different sized coils - one of them faily close to the signal wires and the sound was very good.
I think the coil being at almost 90 degrees to the signal wire provides te biggest benefit and not the distance from the signal wire
Regards
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Has anyone experimented with the distance between the signal wires and the coil for ICs? I just made a pair of double/double ICs, and with one layer of cotton sleeve around the signal wires, it's very tight in the coil. There is no movement whatsoever and it was very difficult to get in the coil. The wires definitely aren't moving relative to each other, which I think is a good thing.
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@ketchup - you should hear improved clarity and details, which also improves imaging.
- Play a live recording and listen for the little echoes and reverberations create within the venue
- You should also notice a more accurate and expansive image
Dynamics should also be faster and crisper
Regards, Steve
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Thanks, @williewonka.
This double/double helix cable will replace the IC between my DAC and preamp. The current cable is made from a twisted pair of Duelund DCA16GA and Pure Harmonies. The double/double helix will use Absolute Harmonies. I hope there's an improvement.
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@ketchup - for the coil - as the previous picture you had posted
Regards
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@williewonka I intend to build the double/double like this and was just wondering what direction the twists should go.
http://www.image99.net/blog/files/20200821_103323_resized.jpg
Is the double/double still a good design? I have VH Audio 18 awg AirLok UP OCC for the signal and Mil Spec 16 AWG Silver Plated Copper Wire Red Cryo Treated from Take Five Audio for the return.
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@ketchup - I was thinkging about the double shotgun approach...where
- you have a Live conductor
- consisting of two wires twisted together
- in a right hand twist
- one complete twist every inch
- you have a neutral conductor
- consisting of two wires twisted together
- in a left hand twist
- one complete twist every inch
- you then twist the neutral conductor and the live conductor together
- in a more relaxed right hand twist
- about one twist every 3"-4"
- and then insert that sub-assembly into the double helix coil
Hope that clarifies things
Regards - Steve
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@ketchup RE:
What direction should the hot pairs be twisted and what direction should the grounds be twisted around them?
I agree with the answer @mbolek provided.
I would say that the positive/line conductor should be twisted in the opposite direction of the negative/return conductors.
Regards - Steve
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@mbolek RE:
I have tried many cables with this orientation and really never could tell a difference.
Not sure what you mean by "this orientation"
- are your referring to the rwo stranded live and neutral wires
- or the bare wire inside teflon tube ?
I recently listened to a Buchardt WiSA system. No cables...sounded awesome.
The days are numbered...
I agree - I have several Bluesound products. Their Pulse speakers employ a similar approach with imbedded amplifier and streaming hardware/software
- You can pair the epsakers into a L/R configuration for 2 channel operation
- no cables and they sound very good
It's only a matter of time before this becomes the accepted norm among speaker manufacturers
But oyu still need a good power cable 😀
- sometyhing Buchardt omit from showing in the photo's of their products
Cheers - Steve
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@mbolek It took almost six months for a package to arrive that I purchased from Australia, there may be a pleasant surprise turn up.
I do believe that a XLR is a low mass connector and the Eddy Effect is reduced due to this.
As you are an EE, the discussion seen in an old thread I have seen, where a method is proposed for producing connections that are said to be Low Mass.
The Link will show the discussions and selected parts for producing the method from the era, there may be a variant as an option today.
I am without doubt the improved impact on what I was experiencing is due to the choices made for the connection.
This was not a veil had been lifted moment, each Cable was appearing equal in Soundstage Depth and Width, and how a insight to a recording was being perceived, each Cable was able to deliver with a very similar presentation for the overall performance.
The difference was how the Note and Vocal took on a Shaping of the Envelope, the Cable with the Low Eddy RCA Termination, when connected to the Low Eddy RCA chassis mount connector showed a substantial and notable improvement in this area of the presentation.
Does having the CCC Wire running through the Analogue Source Signal Path contribute to the effect, I can not say, but it does contribute to the perceived purity that is present in comparison to other used signal wires.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/ultra-low-mass-interconnects-and-connectors.62611/
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@ketchup
good question...I would say that the positive/line conductor should be twisted in the opposite direction of the negative/return conductors. Basic current flow...
@williewonka
I have tried many cables with this orientation and really never could tell a difference.
Marty
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@pindac
I have not received my AR CCC bulk wire. I ordered fromjapan. We'll see if it ever shows up.
As an EE, I do like some of your terminology (Eddy properties). Not an analog/vinyl person, so my only interest in these cables will be an XLR connection from a streamer to amp. Maybe a speaker cable...
@williewonka
I recently listened to a Buchardt WiSA system. No cables...sounded awesome.
The days are numbered...
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Let's say you're using double solid core hot leads and double stranded grounds. What direction should the hot pairs be twisted and what direction should the grounds be twisted around them?
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@mbolek The Threads been quiet for a while, I have a question for you.
Did you receive your PC CCC Wire Order?
If yes, has it been used and you have formed an assessment of it.
I have now been able to have been demonstrated the wire in use, from Source to Speaker on a friends system who I introduced to the wire.
The Vinyl LP as a Source on my friends system, now has developed to the wire being in use as an internal Tonearm Cable, Interconnects with Selected Low Eddy Connections on the Cables and Phonostage Chassis, Internal Phonostage Hook Up wire and the Power Cord, the Speaker Cables are also using the same wire.
This is a system I am very familiar with, and when presented as the system owner had wanted it to be heard, it was without doubt, the best I have ever heard this system.
I was gobsmacked at how a Cable that sounded very good when demonstrated, was shown to be presenting as quite inferior when compared to the same Cable ng with a different RCA Connector, especially a RCA selected for the Low Eddy Properties. This is indescribable and is needed to be experienced.
When the exchanges were carried out, the Low Eddy Signal Path was able to present Notes and Vocals with a Envelope Shaping, in a manner I don't ever recall being able to perceive.
The system owner has also made it known, the wire has created such a positive impression, if the wire could be discovered to be purchased in a gauge to suit a MC Coil, they would send a Ortofon Cart' away as a Donor Cart', to a rebuild service, to have the Aucurum Wire replaced with it. That is quite a serious move toward this wire type in anybody's assessment.
The wire is available in very fine gauge 0.03mm as a Screening Mesh, but is only found in assembled cables, a 0.18mm is the finest I know of in a stranded wire.
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hello everyone, this is my first post here on the forum. I have been watching the helix topic for a long time is a great project. I already have power cables in the helix geometry, now I would like to try the helix geometry for the USB cable and hence my question is whether a double wiring configuration in separate fep tubes for d- and d + can be used for usb. I hope I explained it well. sorry for my english is not even sufficient
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@sns and @lewinskih01 - Interestingly enough, another member has just built a balanced power cable and he likes what he hears.
Basically, you have identical live and neutral conductors inside the helix coil, where the helix coil is the ground wire
- Both live and ground conductors could be formed from 2 x 16 or 2 x 18 gauge UP-OCC bare wires, where each wire is inside a teflon tube
- I would use a reverse twist on one of the conductors to mitigate some of the induction process e.g.
- Live conductor would twist clockwise
- Neutral conductor would twist anti-clockwise
- Use a relaxed twist - i.e. one complete twist every 3"-4"
- the 2 x 18 gauge live and neutral conductors should easily fit inside a helix coil made with a 5/16" rod,
- but I am not sure about the 2 x 16 gauge version - it might
- If your amp requires a large current draw then use 2 x 14 gauge wires
- or alternately you could use the 2 x 18 gauge UP-OCC wire from VH Audio with the Airlok inuskation for the Live and Neutral
- but using this method I would insert each twisted pair of conductors insitde a cotton sleeve to add some space between them
For both versions I would use a double coil ground conductor made from 2 x 14 gauge.. I think this would provide a better faraday cage effect to shield the Live and Neutral condctors
Personally - I would opt for #1, but #2 is a little easier to fabricate and the difference in performance would be small
Would it bs as good as the asymmetrical Helix PC used with a normal house supply?
- I do not think so because you still have the two conductors laying side by side, but the reverse twist on one conductor should help
- but using UP-OCC copper inside the teflon tubes will certainly sound much better than most branded products
- The key here is that you are using UP-OCC copper and if you use the teflon tube as the insulation then the impact of distortions from the insulation is minimized
If DIY is not an option then I would highy recommend Zavfino cables - they aill work very well with balanced power supplies and they use UP-OCC wires
Hope that helps - Steve
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@williewonka Well, your conversation in regard to using balanced power conditioners with the Helix PC caught my attention. I'm presently using Helix non-symmetrical with both my dac and active pre on BPT 3.5 Sig. balanced power conditioner. These using VH Audio Airlock on live and Take 5 Milspec for neutral. I've never given a thought to using asymmetrical Helix PC, what now seems so obvious totally eluded me till now. So, now I get to build symmetrical Helix PC to compare with present Helix.
What is your favorite recipe for a balanced Helix PC? My present Helix run 3 strands of Airlock with relaxed twist for hot, two runs of Take Five with tight twist around the Airlock for neutral. Assuming I want to keep three Airlock with relaxed twist for hot, how do construct Airlock for neutral?
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Thank you Steve! Indeed I meant single ended triodes.
Great input, and food for thought. I do have a balanced power conditioner, so will build one PC and try connecting the SET straight into the wall. Now I know I should look for alternative architectures for the power cords feeding the other components.
Regards, Horacio
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@lewinskih01 - assuming you mean Single Ended Triode amps...
To my knowledge - Cables using the Helix design do not perform well under the following circumstances...
Helix Speaker cables
- when connceting to Amplifiers that are designed using a symetric balanced output architecture
- where the speaker terminals have the same output signals, but they are 180 degrees out of phase
Helix Power cables
- when connecting to power sources that provide only a balanced output
- i.e. where the "live" and the "neutral" have the same voltage, but they are 180 degrees out of phase
- such as some power conditioners and power regenration units
- the Power Grid in Norway is fully balanced
The electrical "spec’s" of the Helix cables are "middle of the road" for capacitance and inductance values, so they are suited to a wide variety of amplifiers and speakers
Other than in the two cases mentioned above, I do not see any reason why he cables would not perform extremely well,
- and since you have already protyped a Helix cable and achieved promising results, I see no reason for not proceeding.
The latest adaption usin solid UP-OCC silver wire for the interconnect signal wires should prove to be an excellent cable for your SET amp
Regards - Steve
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Hello.
I did a rough implementation of the Helix speaker wires to test out the geometry and liked the results. I am now looking to build a Helix power cord and single ended interconnects with the materials in the recipe, and before buying the materials I wanted to check if Helix power cords and interconnects a good choice for SETs?
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The MPT Pure Copper Male RCA Plugs and WBT - Nextgen - Chassis Mounted Female sockets are the connectors I will have on a shortlist for any future Single Ended Interfaces.
I already own Aeco Pure Silver Plugs, so I can do an A/B evaluation when the time arises.
When in discussions, the descriptions offered in favour of the MPT > WBT parts when used coupled together, are the ones claimed to be producing quite noticeable improvements, and enough to no longer use other highly regarded parts used for umbilical connections.
The investigation into the above pairing of connector parts, is an option for others who are interested in this design of Cable.
As stated earlier, for some who do share the interest, the Chassis Mounted Socket might prove to be a little difficult to consider as a exchange part.
I am still working with the XLR options but at present, the Atlas Plug on the Cable is looking the most likely.
The Chassis Mount options are very limited as well, when pure metals are the wanted materials.
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@pindac -
a device that has a thought gone into to it, that will enable it to work as an improved interface with the Cable Design.
The short answer is...
Anything is possible!
However -
- getting it accepted across the entire audio industry would be one challenge
- and then getting it accepted by the audiophile masses would be the final hurdle
The net result of both of these...
it will not happen in my lifetime !
But all is not lost - there are basically four generally accepted connectors within the industry (worldwide) at present
- XLR - extremely robust and multi-purpose
- RCA - the most commonly used and multi-purpose
- BNC - digital only
- DIN - more specialty (e.g. turntable cables) but more widely used in europe
The connector having the highest mass of all of these is the RCA, but that is changing...
- there are now several brands that offer low mass RCA versions
- ETI, KLE Innovations etc..
- KLE Innovations now have low mass versions of
- Banana plugs
- RCA plugs and sockets
- speaker/amp terminals
And similalry there are now companies that offer conncetors with pure copper pins in a variety of platings.
It’s just a matter of time - for these materials/designs to become more generally accepted by the component manufacturers.
Also - you have to realize that
- the percentage of audiophiles willing to go to "extremes" to achieve better sound is very small compared to the general audiophile populous
- but the various components are designed to sell to everyone
Being aware of the many realizations you mentioned above, you are now in the 0.1% of audiophiles that see the benefits of the science.
But catering to that 0.1% does not sell product
- printed circuit board designs are "the norm" these days
- because they bring down the cost of manufacturing
- so it makes changing sockets extremely difficult
- and manufacturers build products to a price point and select parts that work, but not necessarily "work well"
- There are some tube amps that do still choose point-to-point wiring
- which makes replacing sockets very easy
- The most extreme route I have heard of is to hard wire all of your cables
So - the net of all of this is...
- YOU now have the knowledge to make the best possible selections
- Everyone is constrained by poor design & build choices in most of the products out there unfortunately
- However - WE have the knowledge and abilities to minimize the impact of those poor design & build choices.
There is some hope
- Some cable designs now coming onto the market, incorporate many advanced materials, low mass connectors and cable geometries, that result in exceptional results.
- This will "rub off" onto the component maufacturers over time
So I am hopeful that advances in thie area will continue
Regards - Steve.
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@mbolek You are en route and I am looking forward to reading your feedback about what you are perceiving.
@williewonka Your descriptions on the Cable Types and function is making a lot of sense.
Since I have dropped my barriers against Cables and their effects being a fantasy, I have made it my goal to find away to understand how a Cable construction can influence the sound.
After Capacitance and Methods to Screen out Interference, Lower S/N then the types of Wire used start to appear, and then configurations for the wire in use.
With a basic understanding of the above, I stumbled onto the Helix Thread and found myself inspired and most importantly willing to participate, which is now to the point, I have the Wires of choice to commence.
Whilst gathering information and making inquiries to more educated individuals about the importance of some of the electronic considerations for the selection of wires and a Cable Design.
I learnt of a few other things to consider, and that was the importance of the Connectors in use and whether the wire to be used for a Cable can commence its route within the device itself.
Making a decision about a wire within a device is reasonably easy if it is out of warranty and the circuitry design lends itself to the method to exchange.
This has already been agreed to be carried out on my Power Amp's when converted to Balanced and Single Ended, the New Pre Amp is to have my wire choices used from the off.
The connectors used for Single Ended Signal Paths, both connector types, Chassis Mounted and Cable Attached are more of a challenge.
I have been informed by an individual who has used many Brands Connectors to produce cables, with Connectors across a range of differing purchase prices to produce Cables or exchange Connectors on bought in Cables.
That there are variables in measurements regularly being discovered when testing certain Brands and some of the most varied fluctuations are able to be seen on Brands that are sought after for their reported qualities.
The same person has informed me that the Chassis Mounted Connectors can have a very noticeable impact on the sound, and the ones that are Pure Copper with the minimum materials used to produce the part, has in their view the most impressive impact on the sound quality. The attribute is described as not only being down to the material used but also the mass of the part, as there are less residual signal retained that can be detected as smearing when the signal completes the path.
With the above in mind, is there a possibility that a little more could be extracted, if a thought process was put in place, focusing on how to provide a device that has a thought gone into to it, that will enable it to work as an improved interface with the Cable Design.
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Hi Steve,
Thank you so much for a very detailed answer and the additional afterthoughts.
I’m in agreement with you regarding the importance of best conductors for the lowest, most fragile signals, which is also the reason why, I will try out the conversion from UP-OCC Cu to UP-OCC silver on my phono cables to test how it sounds on my setup.
Early in the process I did try the Duelund silver cable, but that proved unsuccessful. Due to the gains in sound quality in general using Neotech solid Cu wire, I will give the silver wire from Neotech a try.
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@provst - some additional thoughts I have regarding cables
Interconnects - convey the most "delicate" signals of an audio system
- This is especially true of Phono Interconnects
- they require the very best materials in order to transfer the incredibly fine micro details to the amplification stage.
- UP-OCC solid siiver is the best metal we currently have that can achieve this
Speaker cables - are dealing with a significantly larger signal,
- Where all of those micro details have now been amplified to levels that are not degraded (as much) by conductors such as UP-OCC copper, having a little less conductivity than UP-OCC Solid Siver
- So I believe any improvements will not be as noticeable, as with the interconnects
- But on highly resolving systems this may not be the case
Power Cables - I have read posts that state that power only operates at one voltage, at one frequncy, and as such, high priced cables are pointless
- But with power cables, you have to consider the BIG PICTURE
- they accomodate the transfer of Electrical Enegy
- i.e. as demanded by the circuitry
- In particular - the circuitry demands energy to handle tramnsient spikes
- That energy comes from the power supply of the component
- if the components power supply is designed to have sufficient energy reserves, the power supply satisfies those demands without a problem
- HOWEVER, if the power supply is not capable of satifying those demands then additional demands are placed on the mains supply
- and for very brief moments in time there is a slight drop in voltage of the component power supply, which impacts circuit performance
- this is generally the situation with more "budget oriented" components
- so as the demand for power is then passed back to the mains supply, so having a great cable will replenish the energy in the power supply in a more timely manner
- however, those demands tend to be smaller than the actual transient peeks.
- but for absolute best performance using UP-OCC Solid Silver is the best material we have available today
- Whilst those "energy demands" may be small they are at the same frequncies as the audio signal transient peaks
- so - the energy transfer within power cables are subject to the same frequncies as the Audio Signal (almost)
- and as such they should be designed with the same precision/materials/geometry as Interconnects and speaker cables for absolute best performance.
- In addition to all of the above, the energy in the power supply is continually being replenished via the power cable at close to the speed of light
- if it is not replennished in a timely manner the output voltage of the power supply fluctuates, which imacts component performance
Please note - my statements regarding UP-OCC solic Silver and Copper as being the best materials we currently have applies ONLY to the DIY world.
- Carbon is being used in some commercial cables,
- but it is much more difficult to terminate and therefore not really applicable to this discussion
- there may also be other materials that I am not aware of
Apologies for the long posts,
Regards - Steve
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@provst - I had used Mundorf Solid Silver with 1% gold wire for one of my power cables
- but the UP-OCC solid copper in the power cables outperformed it.
What I am observing at this point in time...
- the Solid SIlver in the Interconnects provided quite the improvement
- BUT - I was able to hear those improvements using...
- Speaker cables that used UP-OCC copper.
- Power cables that used UP-OCC copper
- so how much of an improvement would using solid silver provide if used on either of those two cables?
- Would the speaker cables benefit from having UP-OCC Solid Silver Signal Wires?
- Whilst it is obvious that UP-OCC Silver is a superior conductor I am not certain that using it for the live conductor on Helix Speaker cables would provide a similar level of improvement as observed when UP-OCC solid silver was applied to the Interconnect cables.
- Would the Source power cables show some improvement ?
- based on past observations - I think they would show some degree of improvement,
- but any improvement would not be as noticeble as the the improvements achieved by using solid silver on the Interconnect cables
- Would the Amp power cables show some improvement ?
- based on past observations - I do not believe the Power Amp would show as much of an improvement as the source power cables may have provided
.For me, developing these cables has always been about
- achieving a noticeable improvement in performance
- at a reasonable cost
Or what I call Bang for the Buck
For me - I DO NOT believe upgrading my Power cables or Speaker cables with UP-OCC Solid SIlver would provide sufficient Bang for the Buck
I think it depends on whether a person is personally seeking...
- "Audio Nirvana"
- or just cost effective cables.
And - you also have to factor in the type of system they are being used on
- my system is modestly priced and therefore has some limitations
- A system having higher resolution capabilities may show a more appreciable benefit, in which case the cost could be worth it
Hope that helps clarify things
Regards - Steve
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@williewonka - earlier in this thread or maybe on your website I do believe you made some thoughts on using silver as conductor for the helix power cables?
Based on these new findings on interconnects is this an area of interest, you will consider going back to for further investigations?
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Steve,
Received the partsconnexion order and put together the following Helix XLR.
18awg bare OCC with teflon tubes for the positive and negative
16awg Neotech for the ground (spiral)
AECO XLRs: I really like these....
Looking back, the Neotech is really high priced and don't know if it is justified for this build.
Hooked them up and will provide my thoughts. Swapped my proto silver build as I described earlier.
Threw a couple pics up on my system page. Maybe I'll put some tech flex around it and we can tell people that it's a $5K interconnect.....:)
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Hey Steve,
Thanks for the clarifications. Before I move to the next stage of modifications, I will try to understand the cost differences between the OCC5N and the Neotech UPOCC silver wires. Looks like all the silver are created equal.
Cheers
Daniel
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@norco74 - forgt to comment on
Also, how’s the cable stiffness between the single and double neutral assembly?
There is little difference in cable stiffness because you are not actually bending the wire in the neutral - The neutral is like a spring so flexes more easily
Doubling up on the neutral causes very little additional stiffness.
Regards - Steve
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@norco74 - these are the wires I used on the two Ultimate DIY Helix Cables
For the 1 x 16 gauge Neutral wire on the Double/Single cable:
For the 2 x 18 gauge neutral wire on the Double/Double cable:
For the 2 x 20 gauge Signal Wires on BOTH cables
Strangely, I had not noticed the price difference because I was always more focussed on other aspects of the build - so...
- you could employ the same technique as used on the neutral wire of the Double/Double cable
- i.e. of using 1 x 16 gauge bare wire in Teflon tube for the neutral of the Double/Single cable.in place of the Neotech insulated wire
- it does require s little more care when winding the neutral coil
- it will perform equally as well as the insulated wire.
- Use a tube that has an internal diameter 25% - 30% larger than the diameter of the wire.
In listening test performed with an earlier cable,
- I compared two signal wires...
- the Neotech wire with the insulation removed inside a Teflon tube
- the bare wire of identical gauge inside a Teflon tube
- I found I preferred the Bare Wire
- but the differences were miniscule
Hope that clarifies everyrthing
Regards - Steve
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Hi Steve,
For clarity, are you using the Neotech or the 5N 20 AWG wire? Cost of the latter is half of the Neotech. Don’t know what justifies it aside from the sleeving which will need to be stripped anyway.
Also, how’s the cable stiffness between the single and double neutral assembly?
Cheers
Daniel
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The Ultimate Helix DIY Cable - Update - i.e. after 200 hours Break-in!
The two "Ultimate" cables were constructed much the same as the normal Helix Air cables with the following "variation"
- Both cables used 2 x 20 gauge UP-OCC solid Silver wires, each wire inside Teflon tubes for the Signal conductor
- The Double/Double cable had 2 x 18 gauge UP-OCC solid copper with each wire inside Teflon tubes for the neutral
- and previouslty used Absolute Harmony RCA plugs
- the Double/Single cable had 1 x 16 gauge UP-OCC solid copper with Teflon insulation for the neutral
- and brand new Absolute Harmony RCA plugs
Even during initial listening sessions these cables sounded amazingly good and it was very hard to distinguish anything between them i.e. on my system.
They have now both had about 200 hours of use and I find it difficult to discern any improvements compared to their initial auditions.
- Both cables are sounding amazingly detailed and airy.
- Both cables sound identical
So breaking down their performance...
Dynmics
- amazingly fast, with more textures being revealed with a fuller sound i.e. more "body"
- percussion instruments, e.g. gongs, cymbals, glockenspeil, xylophone etc. have more details of the initial strike and far more textures in the decay
- plucked instruments are especially more realistic as the string is being plucked
Image
- a more expansive image (in every direction) that envelops the listening position and spreads through both width, depth and height
- more easily discernible "layers" within the music that allows instruments and artists to be more easilty distinguished within the image
- the image now provides that sense of grandeur that large venues posess
- this is very apparent when playing pipe organ music recorded live in a church or cathedral
Clarity and details
- not only are there more details within the image, but micro details like the fingernail plucking at the guitar or harp strings and the strings buzzing against the guitar fret board are easily heard
- Voculs sound fuller and more complete - they have more body and the whispery aspect of a vocal is even more detailed and discernible.
These cables "persuaded me" to go through my albums searching out details never before heard
- older albums circa 1960-1970 revealed deatils that were shockingly good for the time
- newer albums sounded even more astounding
- studio albums had a more life like aire to them
- Live albums transport you right into the venue
These cables are well worth the expense of the 5N solid silver UP-OCC bare wire.
But as it turns out - the Double/Single, that uses 1 x 16 gauge UP-OCC wire with Teflon insulation for the neutral sounds every bit s good as the Double/Double, with 2 x 18 gauge wire (in Teflon tubes) - so it is more affordable and easier to construct.
- But that is on my system and with my OLD EARS to gauge their performance
- you might want to try the Double/Double if your system is highly resolving, because it might just reveal details that the Double/Single may omit.
That’s about it - give them a try - I don’t think you will dissapointed
Regards - Steve
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I eagerly await the report on the PC Triple C XLR Build that is imminently to be produced by @mbolek
This is where my interest lies and it will be good to see the Pioneer Wire used for the Cable produced and put to service.
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@zlib - despite what others may believe - there are limits to my cable obsession 🤪
The only reason I can think square wire would improve things is the increase in effective gauge.
But you have planted a seed - only time will tell 👍
Cheers
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This is probably the end of the line for the Helix, mainly because because I am all out of ideas as to where to take them next :-)
@williewonka, I think your journey isn’t over yet because you haven’t tried rectangular silver wires. Some people say they sound even better.
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@williewonka - Added a pic to my system folder. I paired based on "adjacent". Although, based on the quad twist, it might actually look like opposite??
I do have some Viborg solid core OFC PCs. At some point I'll try a solid sore OCC Helix version.
Going to focus on these XLRs for the near term....
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@mbolek - very interesting - A "Quasi-Helix" design? 🤔
"Technically" - this cable has some positive and negative atrtibutes/benefits
- on the positive side
- the wire is cryo treated
- is uses Airlok insulation, so it will have a lower noise floor than other cables
- It is easier to use compared to Bare wire inside Teflon tube
- on the negative side
- The Airlok insulation is not quite as good as the bare wire in Teflon tubes at lowering noise floor
- it uses stranded OFC copper
- solid wire is always better
- UP-OCC copper improves dynamic performance over OFC copper
Having said all of that - your observations appear quite positive...
I hooked up the VenHaus PC and really liked it.
It WOULD make a good power cable option for people using a Balanced Power Conditioner
- Because the Live and neutral conductors are identical
- Helix PC’s are NOT best suited to this application because the Live and Neutral conductors are very different
QUESTION - to form the Live and Neutral conductors
- did you "pair" adjacent conductors ? OR
- did you pair opposite conductors ?
It will be interesting to hear your observations when comparing it to cables that employ
- solid UP-OCC coper
- A true Helix "Air" Cable geometry
Marty - That’s some nice "out of the box" thinking - congrats!
Regards - Steve
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Steve - Yes. I had some older star quad and figured why not try build a Hybrid Helix PC...
The Star Quad construction utilizes 4 conductors in a "Star Quad" geometry that has even better self-shielding than a simple twisted pair. Each of the 4 wires in the Star Quad bundle has a low strand count (19 strands) of Deep Cryogenically Treated Oxygen Free Copper conductors. Each conductor is insulated with VH Audio’s AirLok™ dieletric, a proprietary form of foamed/cellular Fluoropolymer insulation with a dieletric constant (D.C.) of less than 1.5. A clear FEP Fluoropolymer jacket is applied over the Star Quad cable to keep the conductors stabilized. >>> Available in 4 x 12AWG or 4 X 18AWG <<< Maximum Cable O.D. for each is as follows: 4 x 18 AWG = .235", 4 X 12 AWG = .365"
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@mbolek - sounds as though the VenHaus Mains Cable has identical Live and Neutral wires, with only the ground wires spiralled around the outside - correct?
Cheers - Steve
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