Duelund conversion to DIY Helix Geometry Cabling

Steve,

have you tried 1 x solid core Neoteck Up OCC 12 AWG with original teflon or Cardas Chassis hook up 11.5 AWG wire Instead of 2 x 14 AWG bare OCC for signal In speaker cable

The Link is the only other ones discovered with Pure Copper in the description.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33001068191.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.13.406375a1yo5Pfd&algo_pvid=312535a6-b12a-437c-9d12-cede6ba8cd7d&algo_exp_id=312535a6-b12a-437c-9d12-cede6ba8cd7d-6&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2267063768905%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21GBP%2111.05%2111.05%21%21%21%21%21%40211bf31716748435394754958d0715%2167063768905%21sea&curPageLogUid=VbsbwA9KXj7X

@pindac, thanks for the Monosaudio suggestion but unfortunately their BNC connectors are multi-plated which I am trying to avoid. They claim:

4 Layer Plated Process :

1. Oxygen Free Copper Plated

2. Silver Plated

3. Palladium Plated

4. Rhodium Plated

I found these 2 which are more expensive but considering the Oyaide because it will be silver conductor to silver connector. I have not been able to find quality BNC sockets and also don't think I want to try and change out the socket on my Wadia DAC.  It appears to be impenetrable!

@lemonhaze - RE:

I am about to order some Teflon tubing and have the choice of 0.5mm or 1.0 mm wall thickness. Is one better for the purpose than the other?

I’m pretty confident that there would be little to no difference between the tubes, because there is minimal contact area between the wire and the teflon tube

Would it be a different case if the teflon were molded on the wire?

• I think if you had two identical wires, but one had thicker layer of the same Teflon insulation, then it would not perform as well as well as the wire with a thinner layer of insulation

Hope that makes sense

Regards - Steve

Monosaudio are producing Copper BNC Connectors.

I would suggest from experiences introduced to, it would be best to have the same quality connector on the Chassis as well.

@grannyring,  I apologise for addressing the above post to you by mistake, I intended to send it to:  @williewonka 

@grannyring,  I have found 2 Van den Hul BNC connectors in my stash box which are probably gold plated brass and though not ideal will try them and then compare with another made up helix interconnect using KLE RCAs with cheap BNC-RCA adapters. I think that the cheap adapter might do more harm than good and negate the excellent KLEs.  It's not easy to find a good low mass unit with almost all being brass and then gold plated. The link you provided took me to AECO which is Tellurium Cu. and what appears to be the best of my recent search. Quite pricey!

I am about to order some Teflon tubing and have the choice of 0.5mm or 1.0 mm wall thickness. Is one better for the purpose than the other?

Thanks, Charles

@steakster,  

🙂

@lemonhaze

Glad to hear that it only took 40 years to make the right decision. Better late, than never. LOL!

It would be fun to swap stories over a few Dark & Stormy’s. Many laughs to share. No doubt, you’ve accumulated a boatload more tales. I’d love to hear the one about scuppering. It sounds like it has mystery and intrigue. As does the rescue. Hearing a Mayday over the radio is always unsettling.

Heavy weather. Heavy seas. Not for the feint of heart. Your loop de loop with Hurricane Jeane must have been a crazy long thrill ride. Anemoneter busted @82 knots – yikes! Finally making port - and celebrating – while fatigued to the bone. Then come the repairs! Been there.

I’d definitely be interested in crewing on a delivery. Though, I’m no longer the spry deck monkey of years ago. But, always up for another adventure.

_ _ _ _

Have you heard this one? Centuries ago, the British Navy used to ‘recruit’ seamen in pubs by offering them pieces of eight – that usually found their way into the bottom of a beer mug. The new recruit would swig down his beer –display the coins - and then be hauled off to a ship. The reason that glass was installed on the bottom of beer mugs is so that pub patrons could look underneath to make sure that they weren’t being surreptitiously recruited.  Myth?

@lemonhaze - I'm yet to hear of anyone using the Helx geometry with BNC connectors, so I am unable to recommend that type of connector.

Here's a few from Parts Connexion...

Search Results for: bnc (partsconnexion.com)

Hope that helps

@steakster, a pleasant surprise to read your post and last night thoroughly enjoyed  ‘Race of the Century’  I have missed a few deliveries from USA because of crew shortage. Would you be interested? Nothing at the minute but who knows?

I have watched clips of the final race before but not with all the build up and background. I had the good fortune once on a stop-over in Bermuda to watch match racing in Hamilton harbour. 17 of the world's top 25 skippers competed. I took the boat owner out to the start line in the rubber duck with food and beer and we closely observed them jockeying for the favoured end of start line which shifted often in gusts. Great fun.

I lived on my boat in Durban harbour east coast of South Africa for 32 years and finally sold it to marry a girl I met at my 21st birthday party. I have been asked why it took me over 40 years to marry her and my answer is much like my audio hobby, I don't like rushing things 😬  We now live in rural Ireland and very little audio interest here.

So my deliveries were local to start which meant most were Durban to Cape Town. The sailor's bible 'Ocean Sailing Passages of the World' warns of waves up to 20 meters in height on this stretch of Indian Ocean seaboard caused by one of the strongest currents on the planet rushing into an opposing SW regularly gusting at over 60 knots equal to Beaufort force 11  This builds character!

On a 35' catamaran delivery from Cape Town to Annapolis for their annual boat show we made it to Barbados 14 hours before hurricane Ivan came through which was full category 5 and at the time claimed strongest ever. Waited for the sea to settle some then set course for US east coast where we encountered hurricane Jeane which had hit Florida then curved North and chased us up the coast with winds steadily increasing. The anemometer broke on the masthead, stuck at 82 knots. I was preparing to head for shelter, nearest being Charleston but radio reported some easterly component in hurricane's heading so I held course. The hurricane became easterly then did a loop de loop and curved back and hit Florida a second time! This is what caused terrible damage as lots of the storm shutters and other precautions had been taken down. With 21 Atlantic crossings I have many stories but not to be told here. Some guns, some drugs, some vanilla and sea rescue and scuppering.

Hope nobody gets seasick'

Charles

@williewonka, Congratulations on a long thread without the usual cable deniers disrupting flow. Good that you find the interconnects work for both analogue and digital. I need to make up a cable with RCA on one end and BNC on the other end to connect to an old Wadia 15 DAC   I don't remember seeing BNC mentioned, can you recommend a good BNC  connector please.

@lemonhaze - WRT

Are these intended for analogue or digital duties?

The really nice thing about the Helix design with the Harmony RCA plugs, is that they can be used for either duty, without reservation.

You also do not need to worry about the length of the interconnects when used for digital purposes

• I have used lengths from 18 inches to 6 ft and not noticed any degredation of sound from either analogue or digital interconnects
• others report the same for Balanced cables also.

WRT the my comments regarding possible corrosion - turns out my "fears", or perhaps a better word would be suspicions, regarding the possible corrosion of bare wires inside teflon tubes were without merit.

In the 18 months since I implemented the first Helix Image Air adaption, I can report that while the initial brightness of the copper has become a little more subdued after the first couple of months, it now appears that any further dulling has not taken place.

Whereas the piece of "sacrificial" bare wire wire that I placed on top of my audio stand for comparison purposes has now become very dull.

So I believe that the glue in the heat shrink I use has been very effective in sealing the teflon tubes.

Others have used hot glue to seal the tubes, which is also very effective

But it is always very educational to hear of other creative solutions to any problem, so thank you very much for your most informative post.

I’m sure other members will also find it very useful

Regards - Steve

@lemonhaze

. . . and sailing background and as a professional delivery skipper (now retired or maybe not 😉)

Not! LOL.

Nice to read about tips from a fellow sailor on this forum. Did you see ‘Race of the Century’ on Netflix?

My experience is primarily working the foredeck on ocean-racers. I’ve had the good fortune to see countless sunrises/sunsets during my watches over the years – as well as to hear the gun at the finish line. Also, the misfortune of being pummeled by horizontal rain – with raindrops the size of bullets, pounding into square waves for days at a time, losing steerage by reefs, visiting the masthead while under weigh - and heaving-to during a Force 9. What’s not to love! 😎

Re: audio. IMHO, there’s a commonality with the physics of electricity and the physics of fluid dynamics – hydro & aero. When encountering resistance, the flow of electricity has a similar behavior to micro-climates. The result of ‘friction’ caused by obstacles, colliding vectors, eddying, etc. Occurring at connections/junctions – interaction with insulation – purity of wire – et al. It’s all fascinating!

Please continue to share your knowledge and observations.

_ _ _ _ _

Re: Silicon grease & heat-shrink.   Sounds similar to what Purist Audio Design does with their mixtures to counter EMI.

@williewonka, Hi Steve,  After having just read the entire long thread with interest and mounting anticipation I have chosen to build some interconnects using your updated 'Ultimate' recipe. 

Are these intended for analogue or digital duties?

I come from a boat building and sailing background and as a professional delivery skipper (now retired or maybe not 😉) have first hand experience with copper wire under harsh conditions. With regards your mild concern over the deterioration or 'weathering' of the bare wire in a tube, may I offer a suggestion closely aligned with the system you used to exclude the unprotected wire from oxidation.

When I rewired my boat over 30 years ago I went to great lengths to prevent/slow the wiring from electrolysis and salt laden air. A product that I find essential is Silicone Grease, please note this is not to be confused with silicone adhesive. When making a wire-joint or terminating to a connector I slide an appropriately sized piece of heat-shrink onto the wire, allowing for good overlap either side of the join or termination. The join is soldered or when not able to solder it is connected by 'marrying' the wires. A married joint is the least bulky and is made by splaying the strands of both wires then alternating the strands as they are introduced and then twisting the strands on each side in opposite directions.  Once joined I liberally cover the joint with the silicone GREASE, slide the heat-shrink into position and then carefully without heating the central part of the joint heat the ends, effectively creating a pocket of grease that completely excludes any air or moisture. Some grease will be squeezed out as it shrinks which can be cleaned away.

I have used this method to connect bilge pumps where the connection is permanently submerged in filthy bilge water. I have replaced burned out pumps on boats I worked on and found the copper as bright as the day I installed them.  When I sold my boat the new owner asked me to install some gear. To do this I had to cut into joins over 30 years old and found them to be as clean as the day they were made!  This grease is also great for lubricating and being a silicone compound actually nourishes plastics and rubber. It's ability to waterproof will be evident when trying to was your hands after using.  

Not audio related but a light smear of this stuff on windscreen wiper blades will stop shudder, quieten the movement and lengthen their life.

Something else that may prove to be useful is the technique I use for getting cables into tight spaces. The average length of a sailboat mast on the deliveries I did is about 14 to 20 meters and getting wires stuffed into the conduit running inside the mast is a challenge. Here dental floss and a fishing weight/sinker helps. When you described some difficulties getting the wires through the teflon tubing I immediately thought of this:

If the T-tube is suspended in a vertical position it should be little problem getting a weighted length of floss to gravitate through the tube. Floss being surprisingly strong can then be rolling-hitched to the wires and simply pulled through. Fly-fishing tackle shops can supply tiny lead split balls that are crimped to the fishing line. If things are a bit tight simply lubricate using your awesome grease 😎

Happy new year everyone!

I'll finally try to make some cables.

I found two websites for Sonar Quest, sonarquest.net and sonarquestshop.com.

Do you know if they are legit?

I think the Aesthetix Atlas might be with differential output.

Would someone be able to confirm?

Thanks a lot!

@mbolek I have read the posts in both threads.

This report is with a content about the impression of the PC Triple C Wire that is quite familiar to me.

There are more than one way to describe the presentation from the wire, but when compared to a OCC Wire, the comments all are off the view there is a change and one for the better.

I stated in the past a further veil has been removed and this veil has allowed for a lucidity that is difficult to imagine can be bettered. There has been new micro details find a way to be audible from the recording. The one that really captured myself in my system was the Vocals of a Female Singer, the control used for the breathing had become tangible, it was a quite unfamiliar encounter when first discovered. All most like Q Sound had been used to produce the effect.

On a friends system who I have encouraged to use the Wire, there commitment to using it has been similar to how yours is looking to develop.

Wand Wire, Hook Up Wire, RCA Phono's, Speaker and Power are now all PC Triple C.

The experience I had of it with a Low Mass / Low Eddy RCA on Chassis and Cable was the best to date for me, the 'Envelope' of the note, was visual, the shaping of the Vocal and Instrument manifested in a manner not experienced before.

This is the most impressive and wanted to be reproduced trait from the Signal I can suggest to be is a worthwhile endeavour to discover how to be achieved.

If the intention is to continue the Signal Path as a PC Triple C Hook Up Wire, have a good think about the Chassis XLR, one temporary trial could be to direct couple the Cable to the Circuitry to see how the Chassis XLR might impact on the SQ.      

@pindac reposting here..

I like the Triple C XLRs very much.   I believe they out perform my previous OCC builds.  Just sensing more clarity, better voicing, overall info that I haven't heard previously with my go to music.

This is a 30" cable with AECO copper/silver XLRs.   (2) 19awg bare Triple C conductors (+, -) inside teflon tubing.  Neotech 16awg for ground (Helix wrap).

May look at replacing some internal hookup wire with the Triple C.   Good stuff...

@mbolek Hope the Holiday Period has been enjoyed by yourself.

As an inquiry, has the Holiday Period allowed for any additional periods of creating a assessment of the PC Triple C Wire in use.

On another forum that I not a member, but where I have been a influence of the use of this wire, I have seen a reference to SAEC XR 3000 Cables as being potentially the best VFM Cables.

As this individual making this claim has been demonstrated the SL 5000, with SAEC Supplied RCA's and Low Mass / Low Eddy RCA Connectors, they are used to the better end of SAEC PC Triple C Wire Cables.

The statement did not claim to be using SAEC Supplied XLR Connectors or an Exchange XLR Connector.  

Thanks mbolek,Yes the message was for you.

This is great news, that there is enough happening to already see if a little more can be extracted.

As said previously, the SPV-AV Triple C, was the Cable I had to give a Burn In Period.

Initially a short period was required to experience a gathered presentation.

After a Short Period of use and a A/B Comparison with the Cable it was replacing, it had already shown it was a alternative presentation.

After a revisit to A/B with approx' 1 Month of usage, the original used Cable was not in with a chance anymore.

I would suggest to stick with your creation for an extended period and get quite familiar, with what is on offer.

Individuals I have introduced this Wire to through demonstration. Now Have this Wire as a Internal Tonearm Wire, Interconnects, Internal Wiring in Phonostage and Pr-Amp, Speaker and Power Cables.

They have even gone to the expense of SAEC SL-5000  

@pindac After reading through some to the cable description, AR seems like they prefer that the conductors are run in parallel.  May have to try another version with this config and leaving their insulation intact.  

Marty

@clsidx - Assuming that was directed to me.   It is AR SPC.

here is a description link

emprunter,Your cables look great,

What is the Revive Acoustic Cable that you used,please.

@mbolek Thank You for being a Pioneer for using the PC CCC as a Helix Geometry.

SAEC SL-5000 might be the closest Wire 'off the Shelf' to come close to this configuration.

I have waited in great anticipation for your report of usage and am quite pleased there are perceptions of improvements already detected. From experience I feel confident this will be built upon, as the real differences come to light when comparing to OCC Wire.

@pindac

Cables done. 30" length, 19awg AR Triple C for +/-, Neotech OCC (16awg) ground.

Stripped the AR shielding (teflon tubing), config using Steve’s Helix design....

See my system for pics.

Have to say, listening to my go to songs, maybe better than regular OCC..

@norco74 - I would pass on that feedback to KLE Innovations - they do make changes if there is a valid case for an upgrade.

They may not change the existing model, but they may introduce an upgraded product to their lineup, specifically for amps like yours

I have a Byrston B135 and had a similar problem, so I ground a little bit off of the plastic insulator, at the point where the metal comes out,, which made for a much better seating of the plug

Unforutnaltely, there is no standard for the length of the contact point, which can be problemeatic in some instances

Regards - Steve

Double 18 AWG in teflon tubing for speaker cables was a real upgrade to my ears but not until I have swapped the KLE bananas plugs for some rolled berylium copper gold plated ones. The KLE were not compatible with my Bryston 4B amp. While I love KLE RCA connectors, their bananas plugs were too short and didn’t made proper contact due to their lack of stiffness. The new plugs were crimped and then soldered with Mundorf Silver/Gold solder.

I have an extra set of 8 new KLE banana plugs if someone needs it. The used plugs can also go as well. PM me if you are interested.

@lewinskih01 - apologies for the delay in responding - I haven’t been monitoring this thread (or any others) of late.

The 2 x 18 gauge is effectively 15 gauge, which is more than enough for speaker cables of any size.

• early on I compared a single 16 gauge wire to a single 14 gauge wire and could not tell the difference on my full range speakers

The wires you have selected should be fine and I would use a 5/16" rod - this should not impact performance

Regars - Steve

As I continue to convert into Helix I am now looking to replace the current Helix speaker cables built with commodity PVC/stranded cable with proper materials for the tweeter cables: from a 2W 45-type SET amp directly into AMT tweeters. I'm thinking smaller gauge materials would be fine, but wanted to check in here before I spend $1k on materials.

I'm planning to buy: 2x 18 AWG (instead of 2x16) solid UP-OCC bare copper wire in PTFE tubbing for signal, and 14 AWG (instead of 12 AWG) stranded UP-OCC with PTFE insulation for neutral. My thinking is the small current for the tweeters shouldn't benefit much for increased diameters. Good idea?

Can I use a smaller diameter fiberglass rod for an overall smaller diameter cable?

Thank you!

Where would we be without you, Steve? Thank you so much.

marco

This is the one I use, inside a larger teflon tube

ConneX Wire 20awg OCC5N Silver Wire Hook-up (partsconnexion.com)

It's definiely better than the Neotech insulated wire

Regards

Hello there. I need 12 feet of 12 AWG silver wire for the Helix interconnects i’m making. Parts Connexion offers two alternatives that differ wildly in price:

the Neotech wire UP-OCC wire ($23.78 per foot)

www.partsconnexion.com/NEOTECH-70761.html

and the ConneX 6N wire ($27.95 per meter!?)

https://www.partsconnexion.com/CONXW-88471.html

Has anyone tested the latter? Would it be a waste of time compared to the Neotech? Thanks in advance for your reply.

m

@lewinskih01 - re:

and what internal wiring you use? Helix geometry or regular? Maybe it doesn’t make a difference.

Others have told me that using the hElix geometry on any type of connection will improve sound quality i.e.

1. for signal transfer i.e. internal connection involving a +ve and neutral wire
2. for internal power supply connections
   • one guy rewired all of his internal AC wiring using the Helix geometry in his components

WRT internal wiring of speakers - provided the SIGNAL and NEUTRAL wires are seperated by at leat one inch of space I do not think the Helix geometry is required

• but would still use the "Air" approach for the wires
  • Air is - solid wire inside larger diameter teflon tube
• and probably use
  • solid UP-OCC silver for the SIGNAL wires
    • IF THE BUDGET PERMITS
  • solid UP-OCC copper for the NEUTRAL wires

Regards - Steve

I'm very happy with a pair of Helix Image Air RCA interconnects (per the recipe, except XLRs on one end) and power cable. Both connected into my 45-type single-ended triode amp. The PC is connected to the wall (with Oyaide recptacle), while the previous PC was connected into my balanced power conditioner. Both Helixes have been broken in enough hours to "sound good" per @williewonka indications above, and indeed they sound good. Definitely keepers! 

I'm now considering the speaker cables and wanted to ask if there are any active DIY speaker owners here using Helix speaker cables and what's your experience between running the Helix cables right into the driver connectors vs running them to binding posts and what internal wiring you use? Helix geometry or regular? Maybe it doesn't make a difference.

@mbolek I look forward to your report on the usage of the wire. 

@mbolek The Threads been quiet for a while, I have a question for you.

Did you receive your PC CCC  Wire Order?

If yes, has it been used and you have formed an assessment of it.

I have now been able to have been demonstrated the wire in use, from Source to Speaker on a friends system who I introduced to the wire.

The Vinyl LP as a Source on my friends system, now has developed to the wire being in use as an internal Tonearm Cable, Interconnects with Selected Low Eddy Connections on the Cables and Phonostage Chassis, Internal Phonostage Hook Up wire and the Power Cord, the Speaker Cables are also using the same wire.

This is a system I am very familiar with, and when presented as the system owner had wanted it to be heard, it was without doubt, the best I have ever heard this system.

I was gobsmacked at how a Cable that sounded very good when demonstrated, was shown to be presenting as quite inferior when compared to the same Cable ng with a different RCA Connector, especially a RCA selected for the Low Eddy Properties. This is indescribable and is needed to be experienced.

When the exchanges were carried out, the Low Eddy Signal Path was able to present Notes and Vocals with a Envelope Shaping, in a manner I don't ever recall being able to perceive.

The system owner has also made it known, the wire has created such a positive impression, if the wire could be discovered to be purchased in a gauge to suit a MC Coil, they would send a Ortofon Cart' away as a Donor Cart', to a rebuild service, to have the Aucurum Wire replaced with it. That is quite a serious move toward this wire type in anybody's assessment. 

The wire is available in very fine gauge 0.03mm as a Screening Mesh, but is only found in assembled cables, a 0.18mm is the finest I know of in a stranded wire. 

Finally received the Acoustic Revive PC CCC.  I'll look at building a Helix based XLR and see how it compares to one of Steve's variations.  I don't think I strip off the insulation and just pull the conductors apart and do a simple twist for +/- signal. Ground using the Helix wrap.  Will use AECO XLRs.

Each conductor is 19awg, so don't know if this one would be a good candidate for speaker cables.  

@mbolek  - This goes back to the days when I used stranded wire for both neutral and live/signal wires

I'm not so sure it is still applicable to cables that now use solid wires for the Live/Signal conductors

Regards

Steve,

Not sure what you mean by "this orientation"

• are your referring to the rwo stranded live and neutral wires
• or the bare wire inside teflon tube ?

I was referring to the first one. Two stranded L/N wires.

Also with speaker cables. I used to always twist in the same direction. Tried several with opposite twist and continue to do this now.   Can't confirm that is does make a difference...

Marty

That's pretty much what I settled on, although I added a little time due to the gauge of the double/double.

While building these cables, which is about the 4th set of cables I have made using KLE RCAs, I finally found a pretty good method of terminating them.

I tinned the wires after twisting them together and then filed the end of the tinned wires into a male point with a taper that matched that of the female "V" of the KLE tabs.  I then tinned the bare part of the wires that were filed as well as the "V" on the RCA.  Then, I used my soldering "helping hands" to hold both pieces and used the arms of the helping hands to apply pressure to the pieces, pushing them together, and then soldered as usual.  I feel that applying pressure pushes the wire into contact with the "V" during soldering, making the two parts physically touch each other, resulting in a better connection.

@ketchup ....

Interconnects

• 60+ hours to sound good
• allow up to 250 hours to sound their best

Speaker Cables

• 40+ hours to sound good
• allow up to 200 hours to sound their best

Power Cables

• 40 + hours to sound good
• 100 Hours to sound their best

All cables start off sounding great, but they  tend to sound a little rough after around the 15-20 hours mark and then they get better

Hope that helps - Steve

Thanks again @williewonka.

How long do these like to cook?

@ketchup - I have tried a few different sized coils - one of them faily close to the signal wires and the sound was very good.

I think the coil being at almost 90 degrees to the signal wire provides te biggest benefit and not the distance from the signal wire

Regards

Has anyone experimented with the distance between the signal wires and the coil for ICs?  I just made a pair of double/double ICs, and with one layer of cotton sleeve around the signal wires, it's very tight in the coil.  There is no movement whatsoever and it was very difficult to get in the coil.  The wires definitely aren't moving relative to each other, which I think is a good thing.

@ketchup - you should hear improved clarity and details, which also improves imaging.

• Play a live recording and listen for the little echoes and reverberations create within the venue
• You should also notice a more accurate and expansive image

Dynamics should also be faster and crisper

Regards, Steve

Thanks, @williewonka.

This double/double helix cable will replace the IC between my DAC and preamp.  The current cable is made from a twisted pair of Duelund DCA16GA and Pure Harmonies.  The double/double helix will use Absolute Harmonies.  I hope there's an improvement.

@ketchup - for the coil - as the previous picture you had posted

Regards

@williewonka  I intend to build the double/double like this and was just wondering what direction the twists should go.

http://www.image99.net/blog/files/20200821_103323_resized.jpg

Is the double/double still a good design?  I have VH Audio 18 awg AirLok UP OCC for the signal and Mil Spec 16 AWG Silver Plated Copper Wire Red Cryo Treated from Take Five Audio for the return.