IMO: Only a minute fraction of music listeners care about resolution greater than redbook CD.
Even CD resolution may be more than many want or care about. |
Chrsh - Most consumers don't spend enough money on their equipment to hear the difference. They spend more on their cell-phones. They all claim that they have tin-ears too...
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Noble100,
You just made my point better than I ever could. Why test anything when we already know better? I won't waste my day typing, but I can at least put 1 hole in all your theories.
"The truth is that vinyl records, reel-to-reel tapes and redbook cds can all sound very good but none of these formats are hi-resolution formats."
With regards to vinyl and reel to reel analog tapes, you can't put a level of resolution on them in any meaningful way, like you may be able to do with digital. Why? Because analog resolution will vary depending on the equipment used in the recording and the playback process. Not only that, there is no reliable way to measure the resolution of an analog source and equate it to any to a similar resolution in digital. So in the end, you guys are just guessing. You talk science and objectivity, but don't use a shred of it yourselves. And that makes you completely subjective. The funny part is that you don't even realize it. I mean, if you were trying to be objective and back your ideas up with good factual information, would you really want to use this as a source to build an argument on?
"There was a recent N.Y. Times article that claimed his self-recruited test subjects could not tell the difference between redbook cds and hi-res recordings of the same music. Little wonder since they were comparing identical things."
A recent NY Times article? Do you really think they're qualified to conduct such a test? You can do whatever you want, but if I was trying to make your point, I would be embarrassed to reference a source like that. And then expect someone to take me seriously. |
When I listen to digital music from a number of types of files saved on my pc; whether MP3, ripped CDs or Hi Res, I do have a hard time discerning what level of resolution I am listening to at first. Given time, though, it does become apparent which music is Hi Res and which is not. It does not take me long to get tired of an MP3 file.
I think the reason people have a hard time telling the difference between low and hi resolution music files in A-B comparisons is that the brain becomes involved, and unlike a test instrument, the brain does all kinds of interpretive stuff to the sound your ears are hearing. When you listen to a few seconds of A and then a few seconds of B the brain does not have enough time or information to make a determination as to which one has better sound. But then, sound and music are two related but different things. Sound is simple and music is complex. The longer your brain listens to music the more it becomes attuned to the complexities of the music. With MP3 the complexities just are not there.
IMHO these type of A-B comparison are probably not the right kind of test. I think if you sat people down for a long period of time and did the comparisons you may find a different result. |
Mark Waldrep ia the owner of AIX Records and a hi-resolution audio proponent and supplier. He is a professor at a California university where he teaches classes on audio recording and mixing. He also posts daily articles on his website that contain his thoughts on various audio subjects, typically concerning hi-resolution audio subjects.
A major theme that runs through Mark's articles is the critical importance he places on the 'provenance' of a recording in determining the ultimate playback fidelity of a hi-resolution recording. 'Provenance' basically means the history of the recording; at what fidelity was it recorded originally, what master was used in the transfer to a hi-resolution format and exactly what conversions were involved in the transfer.
The truth is that vinyl records, reel-to-reel tapes and redbook cds can all sound very good but none of these formats are hi-resolution formats.
If the same multi-track reel-to-reel master tape recording/mix of a performance is used as a source for a redbook cd as well as a PCM 24 bit/96 or 192khz hi-resolution recording then, theoretically, there should be no difference in fidelity even if played back through the highest quality audio system. Both the cd and hi-resolution formats are limited by the original multi-track reel-to-reel master tape's fidelity, which is not hi-resolution.
However, if the same performance was recorded conventionally on analog reel-to-reel and direct to digital at 24 bit/96 or 192 kHz simultaneously, I would suggest most Audiogon members would clearly notice that the hi-res format is superior, mainly in detail and dynamics.
Currently, the major content owners (record labels) are scrambling to transfer their music libraries to hi-res formats using the same analog multi-track reel-to-reel masters used for cds so they can market them as 're-mastered into 24/96, 24/192 and DSD hi-res formats'. Uninformed consumers, not aware of 'provenance', will be thinking they're buying improved versions of their favorite recordings. They'll be paying more for new recordings that they don't realize they already own.
There was a recent N.Y. Times article that claimed his self-recruited test subjects could not tell the difference between redbook cds and hi-res recordings of the same music. Little wonder since they were comparing identical things.
An obvious solution would be a requirement that all hi-res music providers fully disclose each recording's 'provennce'. Of course, all providers supplying content with inferior provenance (mainly but not exclusively record labels) will likely be resisting efforts at full disclosure. I'm thinking the best way to combat this dishonesty is by spreading the word on the importance of provenance until it becomes common knowledge.
To anyone unconvinced of the audible superiority of hi-res computer audio downloads, I would urge you to download an album by Jennifer Gomes called "A 1,000 Shades of Blue" from Liason Audio in the Netherlands for under $30. All songs were recorded directly using PCM 24/96 analog to digital equipment without mixing and in front of a live audience. The excellent detail, natural and unrestricted dynamics and beautiful tonal qualities all combine to present a superb 'in the room' sound stage illusion that is stunningly realistic and clearly demonstrates the extraordinary potential of hi-res audio that has a high quality provenance.
Personally, I'm grateful that this type of high quality download is available and have no problem paying $29 for it.
Hopefully, suppliers using lower quality methods on their recordings will not gain traction and performers begin realizing the benefits of recording direct to digital for new recording sessions. Ah, to be old, naive and not concerned with the size of FLAC files.
My 2 cents,
Tim |
For most consumers the difference is negligible. As Raymonda says whether or not that matters is up to the individual. There will never be a consensus on this issue because it will never be widely accepted as common knowledge to be superior such as 8 track vs CD's or VHS vs DVD. |
The real problem concerning hi rez is really a matter of attitude, and probably poor marketing. In the article that was referenced, the tone was negative, and the author pulled info to back up the answer he was looking for. There's a missing, fundamental, element with people that write these pieces. They're not looking to get to the truth of the matter, they look to argue a case. If it were me, or someone else here, looking for answers, we would go after them. The real focus would be the truth, and we would do everything we could to come up with the right answer, and not the answer that we want because we just know better. So if you take a step back and look at the problem defined as getting the right answers, I think you'll see that it becomes very obvious that so much more needs to be done before any judgement is of any kind is passed. |
I've been recording in high Rez for 11 years when I converted to 96/24. IMHO, and to these ears, it makes a difference. Now, whether that matters to you is another story but it matters to me. |
I recently did a comparison with a few experienced and knowledgeable audiophiles. I have three versions of a couple titles on my hard drive; redbook CD, 24/192 and DSD. Using my Baetis Revolution II Music server we started listening over the USB connection to the EMM Labs DAC 2x. We started with the Redbook and worked our way up to the DSD with both titles. Interestingly, we all preferred the 24/192 to the Redbook or the DSD!
Next test was to switch playback to the BNC-RCA SPDIF on the Baetis connected with Jonny Wilson's superb Boomslang digital cable to the EMM Labs DAC 2X and use JRiver to convert the DSD file on the fly to PCM. Again, we began with Redbook versions and moved up to the DSD. Again, the 24/192 won, but the BIGGEST surprise was we all chose the SPDIF connection as being superior sounding to the USB connection! As I have written on other threads, DSD can sound fantastic, but old CDs merely converted don't always benefit from the transfer. All analog CDs converted to DSD and new recordings using DSD sound best. However, converting DSD to PCM sounds superb in most cases and the rush to buy a DSD DAC may not be needed. The proof of this is Berkeley Audio whose Reference doesn't offer DSD capability and it is considered by many to be among the most sonically pleasing of any DAC available. There is no standard on DSD files and this could be an issue. For those of you that have a good DSD DAC and a good cable, try this experiment too and see what you think. |
I believe the question should be Can it sound better? I believe it can, however it often doesnt. For me it is not worth the cost as I can purchase several CDs for the cost of a Hirez download. |
CD quality can sound almost as good as hi-res, and nearly identical on some systems, provided that:
The DAC used has minimal or no digital filtering for 44.1.
With typical low-frequency brick-wall digital filters used on most DACs, the DSD or even 24/96, 24/192 will be better.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
I don't know if that is the reason (not liking high end audio) as Goldmund is pretty much all high end and if there were money to be made with the format, they'd be on it like white on rice.
I say this not to be contentious but there is another article over at digital audio review (John Darko's site) where he uses a software to determine how different 3 different downloads of the same song are (MP3, CD and 96Hz) and the HiRez measures marginally better, if that. He questions whether it's worth the extra cost.
All the best,
Nonoise |
I read through the whole article. Complete waste of time. (Not you, Nonoise. I'm faulting the article itself). You read all that and then you get to the last sentence which sums it up.
"Of course, there many audio enthusiasts and professionals dispute these contentions, but we know of no scientific evidence that supports their views."
Of course not. Its just another silly paper that's put together by people that for some reason or another, just don't like high end audio. There's dozens of papers just like this one that's made using no fresh research of their own. The references they site are old, not very relevant, and are chosen to steer the reader in the direction the author wants. If you read through the paper, there's a clear bias to come up with the conclusion that they did, and its no surprise that the results are what they are. Can someone point out if any issue the author of this article presented, took any part in doing any type of research or tests themselves? I can't. It reads like one of those term papers in high school, that you had a whole year to complete, and you were sitting there copying from the encyclopedia the night before it was due. And, yes, I admit that I've done it myself, so no one needs to call me out on it. I was a screw up in High School. To my credit, though, I cleaned up my act once I got into college. I paid to have an honor student to write my papers, just like the rest of you. |
Hirez has more potential to sound better but the dudes who put together the CD format in ancient times did a pretty good job. It can be beat but most won't care or be able to tell. |
A very interesting white paper, and thank you for posting the link to it, Nonoise. In my own, completely subjective evaluations, I tend to agree with most of it but also have reservations.
I recently auditioned a pair of Harbeth 40.1s with an Audio Research DSD source. While the combo sounded fine, I was not as impressed as I expected to be. The speakers were clearly putting out everything they were being given, but it just didn't sound natural to my ears. How much was poor set-up, room acoustics, whatever source was tapped for the DSD files or combination of factors is impossible to tell.
My home system has 16 and 24 bit from 32 to 192 kHz along with 24 and 32 bit from 32 to 96 kHz DAC capability via USB input and SACD up to 192 kHz via an internal DSD conversion (or so the manual says, anyway). In trying various high resolution downloads (an Agon HD Tracks sampler and the Linn 24 bits of Christmas) at various resolutions, I feel several of those sounded better than the auditioned combo. The Linn Bach Toccatta and Fugue in A minor in 24/192 in particular was substantially better. I use my MacBook Pro with the included MIDI interface for these kinds of things and Internet radio. When playing standard 16/44.1 WAV files, they don't sound as good as the discs on my dedicated player.
My universal disc player really does the trick with David Sanborn's Timeagain SACD and also works nicely with a Mobile Fidelity SACD of Billy Joel's Piano Man. Both of those sound very unlimited; that is they seem to have a much higher ceiling and deeper stage. Several of my Red Book CDs are also outstanding but not quite to the same "unlimited" level.
That said, no matter how much I've fooled around with all-digital sources, nothing I've tried so far holds a candle to my vinyl rig. I can do A-B tests all day long and the turntable roundly thrashes CDs, DVDs, SACDs and hi-res files. Even more unlimited, an almost endless stage and utterly natural sound.
So for what my opinion is worth, I didn't hear any improvement with DSD. I do hear some sporadic improvements going from Red Book to higher resolution PCM formats. Nothing tops pure analog yet, but I'm going to enjoy testing that conclusion over the coming years. |
