its amazing. take a wedge sharpie, and color in the outermost edge of the CD.. then color in the center flat area, and the innermost edge... when you hold the CD up to light, you should not see any coming through..... so actually before you do this, pick a track, turn it up and listen,,,,, then color in the disc, without adjuting the volume, listen again..... i get more volume, calrity and depth...... check this out!!
There is no plausible explanation why it should sound louder. In order to add loudness you would need to add MSB (most significant bits) to the data being read from the CD. This would also require changing the appropriate bits in the error correction formulas that are embedded along with the music data in the stream of "pits" read from the CD by the laser (so that error correction still worked). The probability of this happening in such a way as to uniformly raise volume from cleaning a disc or marking it somewhere is fairly remote...a lot less than winning a national lottery.
This suggests that wishful thinking goes a long way. In medecine they call this the placebo effect. In psychology students are taught that you see the world through the framework of your mind and you can choose to predispose your mind to be optimistic or pleased about things or to be morose and unsatisfied with things. In this manner, exactly the same situation can be perceived differently by the same person, depending on the how the mind has been predisposed. With some training you can teach yourself to select the optimistic view of things (glass is half full) and to recognize when your mind is predisposed to react to inputs in a negative fashion. In simple terms, this is like taking the "Mary Poppins" attitude to things....everything is fun, even work.
Another explanation, perhaps a better one, is that if you stop the music for a minute to mark your disk then your ears/brain will adjust to the silence....then when it starts again it will sound louder (initially), as you have just been accustomed to silence. Musicians and composers use this all the time with great effect...a quiet passage before a loud passage helps to add contrast and make the loud passage appear louder than if it were not accompanied by a quiet passage.
Just two cents...I don't want to spoil your illusions but this kind of thing is part of the reason that testimonials are not trusted in science unless they can be shown to be statistically meaningful under double blind conditions...the mind constantly adjusts and alters our perception.
The color of the ink that should be applied around the outer edge depends on the color of the label, which also influences the laser reading process, I feel obliged to report.
For example, Mercury Living Presence classical CDs (unusual black and white label) sound best with red ink around the outer edge. Go figure. :-)
Shadorne: Looking at your system, which looks like one designed for high impact and slam instead of finesse/resolution/accuracy, I'd say that indeed you wouldn't hear a difference. Still, you might want to try this for yourself before you pass judgment. You might be surprised.
I thought the notion of after-market power cords making a difference was silly. Nevertheless, I experimented -- knowing that I WOULDN'T hear a difference. So that's exactly opposite of what you're contending we do. And boy was I wrong. I heard a huge difference. And so did friends who aren't audiophiles.
We don't have all the explanations for everything quite yet.
I whatever reason I actually own multiple copies of the few CDs. I guess it is time for a test this weekend.. :-)
I will first play all pairs unmarked, just to be sure neither one has any defects, etc. After marking them I can get someone to switch them back and forth, so I will not know which is which.
To Shardorne's point... 1) is it possible marking the perimeter reduces error and allows more bits to be read resulting in louder volume? (I'm not an EE and have only the vaguest of notions about how CDs work...I'm asking because I want to know...not to be contentious). 2) It'd be great if someone with a sound meter could provide some comparison readings with and without marking.
Also, to Sugarbrie...I'd suggest listening to both copies unmarked first. See if volumes are the same initially.
anyone from a manufacturer (or lab) from technicolor, to crest, to deluxe, to sony, to cinram, have all said there is no effect of any kind...this also includes the rings that were sold to the public.
I don't think it's merely a matter of volume. Anyway, some things cannot be measured. If you have two properly tuned pianos, one a Steinway and the other a cheap upright, and play a middle C, they will register the same on an oscilloscope. Do they sound the same?
The two pianos may not sound the same, but an "audio spectrum analyzer" should reveal their personal characteristics (harmonic fundamentals, tone, amplitude, etc) as to why they sound different (analogue audio).
As Shadorne explained, and other than the possibility of minimizing correction errors, how can the digital bit stream be modified by mearly painting the CD edge or backside?
shadorne thanks for the lesson, i am quite aware of the power of suggestion, and "PLACEBO" effect,,,, and believe me i tried this on many discs, and always wanted to discover that it was in my mind....... but it is not...... every person i have showed this too, audiophile or not, jumps back in disbeliefe when the colored disc plays..... i think you should try it...... instead of just arm chairing it.... just sayin. :)
since there is no explanation for this, only theories... this has changed how i view the digital domain.... first there is a gain of data from the coloring???? if we assume this, then there is generational loss in the CD formatt... (previously unheard of) also why not precolor a CDR prior to recording, (better transfer) also DVD's may improve, etc..... i had the chance with a CD and new pressing of a record, to do a comparison... CD first, vinyl next, colored CD, and vinyl.... i am thinking that there has always been all of the music on the CD..... in other words, the colored CD sounded as solid as the vinyl.. i have all Musical Fidelity KW system. B&W 802 spkrs...... ????
Sharpie - schmarpie! I'm sure some "Audiophiles" know right away when their 3-year-olds take some 1/2" diameter Crayons to the Steinway! Where's the harm in letting them try their little Picasso hand at Daddy's CD collection?
I get tired of science being brought into what my ears do better. Thats, hearing sounds.
There may be some wanting to hear something and your going to hear it cause it's mind over matter, but to say that we cannot perceive differences in a product that can't be proven by science is crazy and its just placebo.
I proved that wrong in another thread when I mentioned that I guessed 25 out of 25 times where my wife put the cleaver little clocks. Whether she had placed them outside or next to my closed theater door. The same people that say the clocks don't work, its your imagination, its the placebo effect where proven wrong with the cleaver little clocks. Guessing 25 times right of their location is not mere luck.
The same people saying there is no science in the clocks of how they work, thus they cannot work and its a placebo effect shows why science don't belong in listening to audio and that my ears proved right over science. Science smyence, its time to get rid of it and just let your ears decide!
Freemand: We've all read similiar "unsubstantiated" claims regarding just about everything audio related. Humans have been claiming to see, hear, smell, and taste all kinds of things since the beginning of man, much of which can be, and has been disproven by ivestigation/research (science). All one has to do is observe the high medical-placebo percentages, nevermind all the UFO-sighting claims.
You wouldn't have your beloved audio equipment/media if it wasn't for science! And, what claims would audio manufacturers (including Machina Dynamica) be writing in their brochures, other than the science-related data that everyone reads and compares?
Metro04: Very true, but many times over the past several decades scientists have reported discoveries that cast doubt on previously held thories/beliefs -- or are flat-out contradictory to what scientists have "known" to be true. In the audio world, you need a healthy dose of both -- science and the ability (and willingness) to listen.
The idea has been around for 10 years marketed as AudioPrism CD Stoplight green pen & CD Blacklight luminescent green mat. The red spectra of the CD laser is cancelled by green, instead of being refracted back at the edge & across the disk, which increases jitter at the laser pick-up. I believe it works, though it doesn't increase volume. The effect is similar to jitter reduction associated with a low-jitter clock: less glare, more liquidity. I think the Blacklight, which bathes the area with green phosphors, is more effective than the pen, but recharging the mat with a light source every 20 minutes is just too dweebish.
9rw: Yes, your point is true as well, but Scientists are continuously striving for proof and understanding. I'd feel a whole lot better if renowned research teams submitted "proven" technical findings over financially-motivated manufacturerÂ’s claims. This "subjective" hearing nonsense wouldn't fly in any legit research organization (Science/Engineering firms, Universities, NASA, etc) without absolute technical proof/explanation. IMO, I feel ALL claims should require proof by whatever means, including DBTs or equivalent. Otherwise, it's no better than the "unregulated" vitamin, personal healthcare products, or similar "subjective" claims markets.
Metro04: Dgarretson provides a highly plausible technical reason. Besides, who stands to make a fortune here, Sharpie? The Sharpie folks probably don't even know about this.
I haven't tried this, but I wouldn't condemn those who have and say they hear a difference. It's not as if this represents a huge investment and anyone is going to let children starve because they spent $2.99 on a Sharpie.
Scientists don't have all the answers. Just look at the climate (politically driven) change debate. Lots of scientists know that it's nonsense -- at least where human activity is concerned. What's happening would be happening even if there were no people on this planet.
Enjoy your system! Oh, and be sure to buy some carbon offsets so you won't feel guilty for using electricity that you really don't need to be using.
Science smyence, I think it needs to be required to have a masters degree in science before one is allowed to listen to one's system. We actually need to fully understand every component of the system audio signal as it travels through the system and eventually to the speakers and then our ears.
I think this is mans worshiping at the alter of science as their god. everything has to be explained by science and it sadly trickles down into audio!!!!!. Even a fun hobby of just listening to audio. This is listening to music.
Freeman: "I think this is mans worshiping at the alter of science as their god. everything has to be explained by science and it sadly trickles down into audio!!!!!. Even a fun hobby of just listening to audio. This is listening to music."
"Trickles down into audio!!!!!"? WHAT?! Don't know where you've been hiding, but it took "science" to design the first amplifier ever made. Audio equipment, as you know it, is merely an advancing bi-product - cultivated into marketable electronics. Just about every audio manufacturer touts improved scientific attributes over previous models, or the competition's, and is what mainly perpetuates sales.
Are you honestly telling us that you've never read/compared a manufacture's claimed specifications, or read technical explanations for why their product design is superior to another? Every aspect of this evolving hobby encompasses science, whether you realize it or not. To so many audio hobbyists, HiFi may appear to be the electronics frontier, with but a tiny fraction actually understanding HOW electronics work, thus susceptible to influence by the marketing "machine", or documented psychological reasons.
It's poetry in motion She turned her tender eyes to me As deep as any ocean As sweet as any harmony Mmm - but she blinded me with science She blinded me with science! And failed me in biology When I'm dancing close to her Blinding me with science - science! I can smell the chemicals Science! Science!
FWIW, I can't explain what music does to me....it is magical...like many things in life science has its limits... the explanations fall so short of what we feel!
For those of you who dimiss science, I know where you are coming from...there is so much more to life.
However, green marker on the edge of a disc...this indeed is within the limited realm of science. This is the kind of stuff Science is able to deal with.
Shadorne, you said, "The green marker on the edge of the disc....This is the kind of stuff science is able to deal with." I agree with you; but how does science deal with it when the best color is purple? :-)
Purple is shorter wavelength than Green. Since the light from a CD laser is Red (780 nm) then purple, being further from red than green, will filter out more red light. Therefore purple will be more effective than green, as a filter.
Another factor is that purple has six letters and green has only five but nobody will buy that argument...
Shadorne - No, the color purple will better *reflect* red than will the color green. That's the (scientific) problem with the argument for purple. To make the issue even more confusing, 780nm is not really red, but infrared (not visible).
Metro, is there science to the cleaver little clock? Do you know of any. If there is no science does that mean the clock can't work and its that dreaded audiogon word "placebo effect".
09-30-07: Freemand Metro, is there science to the cleaver little clock? Do you know of any. If there is no science does that mean the clock can't work and its that dreaded audiogon word "placebo effect".
Kidding about what?? I want to know if there is science or any known science in the cleaver little clock.
I was also curious, that if there is no known science, then does a product not work and its placebo cause of no science?
They seem like reasonable questions. There just seems to be many on here that say if there is no science in a product it's your imagination or placebo effect.
10-06-07: Freemand Kidding about what?? I want to know if there is science or any known science in the cleaver little clock.
I was also curious, that if there is no known science, then does a product not work and its placebo cause of no science?
They seem like reasonable questions. There just seems to be many on here that say if there is no science in a product it's your imagination or placebo effect.
Kidding about the clock having an effect, of course.
I sense you seem to think the clock might have an effect.
Care to elaborate on how a device that (keep in mind the following quote is taken direct from Machine Dynamica's website)
"has no direct or indirect influence on the "audio signal" per se -- not on house wiring, audio components, cables, interconnects, power cords or acoustic waves in the room."
HOW could a device that CLAIMS to have no interaction with anything change the sound?
The answer is clear and doesn't need to invoke science.
Whoaru99, I don't know how the clock works and if science can explain though I don't care about science explaining. The fact is is the clock does work. Some how, some way, its over this boys head.
My Test explained above when I was able to guess the clocks location perfectly right 25 out of 25 times whether they where on the front porch or in front of my theater door that my wife placed proved that the clocks work. If science can't prove how they work it shows that ears can notice the effects of something. Thats why I say science smyence and trust your ears!
You may be able to collect a million bucks from James Randi....you just need to be able demonstrate this skill to the media, on stage or in public forums.
Randi may not allow your wife to particpate in case she is signalling to you somehow....but if you really can do it then I wouldn't delay in case someone else wins the million first.
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