Take any tweak, like demagnetization, for example, or ionization, and there will always be two camps, those that think it works and those that don't. For those that listen to any tweak, like demagnetization or ionization, again there will always be two camps, those that hear it and those that don't. There are many reasons why people don't hear tweaks. I don't think we need to go into all if them here, but an obvious one is the person's hearing ability is not all that it's cracked up to be.
Do you demag or destat your CDs/DVDS?
Just curious about these CD tweaks. The Furutech destat machine is tempting at around $350--I like their products. What is the story behind Furutech's discontinuation of their RD2 disc demagnetizing station? I see it was taken up by Acoustic Revive as the RD3, a supposedly improved version. Did it not prove effective by Furutech's standards, or did they let it go in favor of their much more expensive demagnetizer for vinyl and CD? Just wondering if the RD3 does work to improve sound. There isn't much mention of it in the past few years.
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Brownsfan, thank you kindly. And I'll add for the benefit of others that if any differences were there to be perceived with the particular device you tried, in your particular high quality system, I have no doubt that you would have perceived them. IMHO your sonic perceptiveness is as good as it gets. Jim, can't do, as I'm not equipped for computer-based playback to my main system, or to anything other than inexpensive computer speakers. Despite being among the more technically oriented audiophiles, somehow I always seem to be among the last to adopt new technologies :-) I didn't buy my first CD player, for example, until 8 years after the medium was introduced! In any event, comparing CD playback to playback of a computer file introduces so many variables into the mix that I'm not sure the results of a comparison in a specific system would mean very much. That would likely apply even if the CD were being played back in a CD drive in the same computer that contains the hard drive, due to the differing signal paths within the computer resulting in differing amounts of noise and jitter on whatever output signal it is providing. To a greater or lesser degree, of course, depending on the type and quality of the interface being used between the computer and the component to which it is sending the signal. Best regards, -- Al |
Hi Al, If you get a chance would you copy a good sounding Red Book CD, like the ones you used in the thread below, onto a hard drive and compare the original source Red Book CD to the hard drive copy? I would bet the original source CD will sound better. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1354371062&openflup&15&4#15 Thanks, Jim |
I bought a Destat II about 6 months ago. It has been entertaining standing on the sidelines and taking in all of the back and forth discussion. As usual, Al brought an open mind tempered by a solid technical background. My purchase was an experiment. In my experience with the destat, any effect it had was inaudible. I have a high opinion of Furutech and the vendor from which I purchased the destat. I think Al's take explains well why some are sold on this thing and some are unimpressed. For the last 24 years I worked in a world class R & D organization. I have some idea about how science and engineering is actually practiced in development. I have seen brilliant people get into protracted theoretical discussions. Sometimes you just need to run the darn experiment. If anyone is inclined to run the experiment, let me know. I'd be willing to part with mine. |
"07-11-14: Timrhu ZD542, I'm not calling anyone out. Although I have met a few Agon members personally, I don't know any who fit that description. But reading through the threads here it does seem as if there are members who do." Sorry. I don't think you read my post the way I meant it. I made the comment that audio equipment is made by scientists. Right after I put that down I said to myself someone is going to come up with an audio product that wasn't designed by a scientist. And it will probably be something silly like a tweak that doesn't make a difference. It was just a poor explanation on my part. |
07-12-14: Jafreeman
Hi Al, You said, "A point to consider, regarding the mention of ripping to an SSD (or other hard drive): If in fact demagnetizing a CD accomplishes anything, and if the explanation of how that might occur is as described in the long quote from IAR which Jim (Jea48) provided on 7-9-11, the resulting benefit would only occur during real-time playback in a CD player or transport." You may be correct about an SSD or hard drive I have not experimented there..... I have as you know, in a thread a while back here on Agon where you responded to a post of mine, where I copied a Red Book CD on a stand alone CD recorder to a CD-R disc and then treated the same Red Book CD in the Bedini Clarifier and then copied the cleaned CD on another CD-R disc in the same recorder. Play back of the two reviled the two CD-R discs sounded different. Sounded different on several different CD players. Several..... Do you remember the thread? Damn if I can find the thread.... Any ideas? I would like to post the thread here for the naysayers. You said, "The IAR explanation, btw, involving introduction of electrical noise into circuitry in the CD player or transport, is the most plausible explanation I can think of for how these things MIGHT make a difference. And if that explanation is correct, whether or not a benefit will be realized, and its degree, figures to be highly dependent on the happenstance of the design of the particular player or transport." I have played treated Red book CDs back on several different CDP players. I think it has more to do with the listening devices used whether difference can be heard. I will say to date for those that have listened they could hear a difference between a treated CD and non-treated CD. Note I only said difference. Some listeners preferred the sound of the treated CD, other preferred the sound of the untreated CD. Jim |
Jafreeman, Thanks for the acknowledgement. I was hoping you had not made up your mind from reading the posts of all the naysayers that had responded to your posted message. My Bedini Clarifier is the older dual beam unit. I have heard the quad is a better one. Not sure if you researched any of the archives here on a Agon on the subject at hand. Here a a thread I posted back in 2005 incase you have not already read it. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ymisc&1110747999&openmine&zzJea48 Jim |
07-12-14: JafreemanA point to consider, regarding the mention of ripping to an SSD (or other hard drive): If in fact demagnetizing a CD accomplishes anything, and if the explanation of how that might occur is as described in the long quote from IAR which Jim (Jea48) provided on 7-9-11, the resulting benefit would only occur during real-time playback in a CD player or transport. The effect described in that explanation has no applicability to playback of a computer file that has been ripped from a CD. And that is especially true if the rip is performed using software that assures bit perfect accuracy, as it should be. The IAR explanation, btw, involving introduction of electrical noise into circuitry in the CD player or transport, is the most plausible explanation I can think of for how these things MIGHT make a difference. And if that explanation is correct, whether or not a benefit will be realized, and its degree, figures to be highly dependent on the happenstance of the design of the particular player or transport. Regards, -- Al |
My thanks to Jea48 for supplying ample information on the Furutech RD. I notice there are no US or Canadian distributors of the Acoustic Revive RD 3, only overseas sales on Ebay that are not endorsed by Acoustic Revive. I could buy one from the dealer in England, but price is now over $600 USD. I spoke at length with my high-end retailer, here in MN, who swears by the Bedini Quad Clarifier. He states he never uploads a disc to his solid state drive or plays a CD that is not first placed in his Bedini. I trust this guy, who works with the top lines in his store every day and has listened to dozens of different systems he has set up for customers to listen to. If this guy sez it works, that's enough evidence for me--I ordered one. |
"This parallels the audiophiles who trust their own senses (perceptions) and believe the marketers (of which I include most reviewers) and shun scientific testing." That's a pretty big assumption. I trust my own perceptions, but I don't buy marketing/reviews. I stopped reading reviews because I disagree with them more than agree. Shun scientific testing? Not at all. If science can help, I'm all for it. Audio products are made by scientists. (Please don't call me out on that statement with some ridiculous tweak made by a "scientist". Yes, I get that.) |
Jea, Either you missed my point, or didn't care to address it. I'm not talking about the demag product or any other tweak. I'm talking about the term "flat earther." Flat earthers believed the earth was flat because they trusted their own senses and religious beliefs and mistrusted scientific evidence. This parallels the audiophiles who trust their own senses (perceptions) and believe the marketers (of which I include most reviewers) and shun scientific testing. As for tweaks, I'm one of those who believes every change I make in my system or in my listening room has an effect. If the change is made to the system then the signal is affected. If the change is made to my listening room then the sound waves that reach my ears. If I swap out an IC in the signal path, it has an effect on the signal. If I set a new pillow on the seat next to me it, has an effect on the sound waves reaching my ears. If I change a tube in my amp, it definitely has an effect. This leads to two questions. Can I hear these differences? And can these differences be measured? Not all changes I have made were audible to me. I have heard some changes, including cable changes. I have used after market power cables but have not heard any difference, could be bias as I wouldn't expect to. Whether the changes are measurable will remain a mystery as no one is going to that trouble for me. At this point in my life I no longer find listening to tweaks interesting. Swapping in a new power cable and straining to hear a difference is not important. Years ago I was all into it but no longer. Enjoy. |
"07-10-14: Mceljo Specifically, I remember one particular person that left the industry and provided their thought afterwords. I thought I saw it on audiogon, at least the link. If I get time I will try to dig it up. Generally, I have never read a truly negative review in an audio magazine which leads one to assume that they will praise anything that is put in front of them. Admittedly, I so t read a lot of reviews so maybe my sampling isn't representative." The reason I ask is that I feel a lot of people put this topic in more of the conspiracy category than anything else. (I'm not singling you out here. It's my general observation.). Most reviews are positive, but I feel its very easy to explain why this is so. First and foremost, products have evolved over the years. For example, critics used to say SS gear didn't have many qualities that tubes had, and tube gear fell short of SS in areas. As a result, designers have been trying to deal with the weaknesses in whatever products they make. The same improvements have been made with digital and conventional speakers. And for the most part, they've been successful. Its only natural that the reviews have become more positive over time. There's a lot less to complain about. Another major factor is that reviewers usually look to review gear that they think they will like. Its very common to hear something at a show and ask for a review sample. This practice isn't a secret, either. I've seen many times, in print, where reviewers will tell the reader they asked to review a product. And even if the review is positive overall, negative qualities are still listed. I can't remember reading any review that said the product was perfect. "7-10-14: Mceljo Zd542 - The article is titled Ethics and the Audiophile Press and was written by Roger Skoff. You can Google it." Thanks for the reference. I'll have a look at it when I have some time later. If I'm not mistaken, Roger Skoff is from xlo cables. Are you sure he's not trying to get back at the audio press for a bad review? lol. Just kidding. |
Jim, I read all articles, but couldn't find scientific proof and properly presented magnitudes. The values and graphs are NOT real and I pointed that out prior. It's faked and it's visible even by high school pupil. Lots of theory why..... scientific proof? ...because I don't like to be fooled by no one including even Allmighty! Lots of theory is never an argument till some of it or all is proven not just by reviewer or bunch of positive review articles or earlier mentioned Him. Even if something is already scientifically proven still requires a research towards desired results vs. investments: I found some proof about wire properties affecting sonics, but also found no point to spend thousands of $ per wires. By default to me they're all overovermarkettedoveroverratedoverovervalued and don't make sense therefore. One can achieve same results or better by properly researching electric properties of pro-audio wires to synergise with your system. They're priced and valued far closer to reality per performance. Why pro-audio wires, because there are more truth in description vs. home hi-fi wires. No point hiding anything or boosting parameters. I had HHScott amp with vintage telefunken tubes and liked that one a lot, but had to sell it due to the very curious toddlers in my dwelling. I also like vintage transistors and capacitors. When I get chance to research circuit improvements and find vintage goodies I go mod my units, but most of the time I'm very busy with my vinyl/cd shop. For powerline safety and performance I also shop at pro-audio. It's manufactured by major brands that have great support for pruduct such as Furman. As for powercords, stock one usually has best value for performance no matter how good is aftermarket one. I like good recepticles and good connectors and use hospital grade Marnico. Regardless weather reviewers are biased or not, I believe that most of them hear what others sayin' or listen to what manufacturers are saying, then believe, then write something what they believe. |
I use Blue Jeans Cables because from my research on what aspects of cable design impact spin quality the most. My conclusion was that the gage of the cable reducing the resistance so I have 10 awg cables. Did I hear a difference? Not definitively, but they are well made affordable cables that make swapping my speakers from my receiver to my tube amplifier a quick process. When it comes to bias, simply listening for a change is enough to hear a change. If it is a tweak then any change is likely to be interpreted as positive because that is the suggested outcome. This is true for a lot more than just audio... |
What Czarivey and Mceljo are asking for is scientific proof that the minute magnetic fields produced either by the spinning disc or the paint on the top of the disc have any audible effect.scientific proof...... What scientific proof can be presented why ICs and speaker cables can sound different when connected to audio equipment? How about, Power cords? Mains power duplex receptacles? Dedicated circuits? Lots of theory why..... scientific proof? How about NOS vacuum tubes vrs current production tubes? Scientific proof? How about a little real life experience with an item before slamming a product as being snake oil. Or at least research the item for bad press and then post the info found. As for Czarivey and Mceljo, I furnished Links providing info on the Furutech RD-1, RD-2 and the Acoustic Revive RD-3. I challenged Czarivey to find any bad review/s by any recognized audio review magazine, he supplied none. Google is your friend. Mceljo response, reviewers are biased. LOL, he never did answer my question where he learned of Blue Jeans cables. It couldn't of been a review in a magazine. Best regards, Jim |
Specifically, I remember one particular person that left the industry and provided their thought afterwords. I thought I saw it on audiogon, at least the link. If I get time I will try to dig it up. Generally, I have never read a truly negative review in an audio magazine which leads one to assume that they will praise anything that is put in front of them. Admittedly, I so t read a lot of reviews so maybe my sampling isn't representative. |
Yes, actual experience. Didn't read it in a book or magazine. Didn't learn anything from Flat Earther naysayers on this site either..... Actual hands on experience. I just don't understand the term "Flat Earther" in the context you use it. As I understand it a flat earther is one who rejects scientific reasoning and instead relies on outdated ideas, pseudoscience or religious arguments to derive their facts. What Czarivey and Mceljo are asking for is scientific proof that the minute magnetic fields produced either by the spinning disc or the paint on the top of the disc have any audible effect. This always seems to be the case when the term "Flat Earther" is thrown around. |
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As a final thought, are you concerned with the magnetic field your speakers put out impacting the playback of your CD player? A lot of speakers are shielded so maybe yours are? This would be a perfect example of a much stronger magnetic field that it is very likely in a reasonably close proximity to your CD player. |
David99... "Maybe a dumb question but, Wouldnt a Milty Zero-Stat Gun have the same effect for alot less money ?" That's why I ask the question, can't the plastic layer of the disk pick up a static charge? I'm not saying a CD can can become magnetized, but plastic is a conductor in the in the same way vinyl is. |
I have compared $7 hardware store speaker cable to a pair of $2,000 Nordost, I think, on a very nice system. I did hear a tiny difference that I would say was an improvement, but I didn't think it was worth the extra $1,993 dollars it would take to upgrade. My new $600 tube amplifier made a much more significant improvement than a cable ever could. If I am ignorant on this topic in your opinion, that's perfectly ok with me. Enjoy listening to your system. |
I'm not ignorant. I fight foolishness and sometimes with humor(or laughs with anger and somewhat courage), because same money fool pays for bogus or fake can be much more useful elsewhere real. Even fool can feel difference between $350 disk demagnetizer and $350 pair of shoes after all(or $350 is too much for shoes huh?). It's alway's one's call weather one realizes or not who to support -- the bogus factory(ies) or as per example above shoe designers. |
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Jea48 - Here's a little order of magnitude experiment for you to do. Find a way to isolate a CD player from your system such that you have no physical connection with it from your listening position. Then have someone pick the CD player up and move it around while you're listening and see if you can tell when the CD player is stationary and when it is being moved. Obviously, the goal isn't to make the CD player skip or identify connection issues from the cables being moved. You should use a long digital connection to isolate the disk to laser interface from the A/D conversion. If you listen for a reasonable period of time and have no way of telling if the person is in control of the CD player has "left the building" or not you will not be able to tell the difference if you're being completely honest with yourself. You must be able to tell when the CD player is picked up and set back down. Take note of the times and compare your notes after the fact with the other person. Moving the CD player around will, in my opinion, have a much more significant effect on playback than the magnetic ink on the disk will have. If you can't hear the more significant one, then you cannot hear the less significant one. |
Magazine reviewers are biased to be positive if they want to continue doing reviews. There is a lot of science to support the idea that your assumption that it works will allow you to convince yourself that it works. Call it placebo or something else. There comes a point where it is no longer possible to hear the difference even if it were there. There is a lot of scientifically measurable aspects of audio equipment that cannot be heard by the listener. I highly doubt this effect has ever been measured and likely is undetectable. |
Sorry Jea, but there's no lab tested evidence at all. Czarivey, I would think by now you would have tried to back up your claim that the Furutech RD-1, RD-2 and the Acoustic Revive RD-3 are nothing more than pie in the sky snake oil devices. But no, all you do is continue to trash the devices and there by trash the name of the companies that manufacture the devices. You Flat Earthers never fail to amaze me. The very least you could of done is find one, just one, audio magazine that said the devices were nothing more than snake oil. Hell you are too lazy to even do that. Here is your precious test you so desire. http://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/cd_dvd/rd-3_2.html |
Not every physical phenomenon has an effect on our precious sound quality. THis is one of them in my opinion in that CD playback nowadays is perhaps the most reliable process in all of home audio in terms of producing consistent results, save except for playback of digital files in memory or even on magnetic disk storage. Wait, those computer disks are magnetic!!!!! Audiophile alert!! :^) GEof/Machina Dynamic considers this a problem. What more evidence is needed? |
Sorry but i wanted to see lab results not review after all. Can you tell difference between scientifically proven results and reviews? I can build hypothesis out of literally anything, but how can I prove? Jea, you don't you even know a-bit of science? If not, math is simpler way to comprehend. Check my previous notes. |
The CD laser is a quantum device and produces a coherent beam of light. But, since the CD laser is a *quantum well* that operates by quantum confinement, the light beam of photons is a WAVE only, not particles. And since the light wave is in the *electromagnetic* spectrum it's quite possible it's subject to magnetic fields. Also, the physical data is located extremely close to the ink on the label, which helps the case for some sort of magnetic interference, even if the magnetic field is very small. It wouldn't take much since the size of the physical data is nanoscale. |
"Pseudo science at best misapplying concepts in such a way that it sounds good to the consumer." 07-10-14: Mceljo Mceljo, These guys have no dog in the fight. IAR International Audio/Video Review http://www.iar-80.com/ http://www.iar-80.com/page53.html . |
The type of marketing takes me back to the F-150 commercials when Mike Rowe first became involved with the "new" truck. It must have been about 2004 since that is when I purchased a Tundra after driving all of the half ton trucks. The commercial claimed that the F-150 has the most low end torque in class and the seat of my pants told me otherwise. I recorded the commercial and paused it to read the fine print. The actual fact was that the F-150 had the highest percentage of peak torque at 800 rpm. I just laughed when I read it. By law they have to make factual claims, but it is very easy to mislead. I don't think there are any regulations for advertising in audio so... |
