@best-groove,
'at all, I find it all very funny.'
It's part and parcel of being an audiophile. That's why I think some of the funniest posts are the ones we can see something of ourselves in.
Anyway the balance of opinion, excepting a possible online discussion of cables which the OP seems to be considering, is that unless something is obviously wrong, tonearms (even those of a certain vintage) don't particularly need refurbishing.
Kind of reassuring.
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In other side, if you don’t like what you read in any thread well just don’t read it at all, I find it all very funny. |
Dear @best-groove : I told something similar rigth from my second post due that a gentleman started to speaks something related but not the OP subject.
In other side, if you don't like what you read in any thread well just don't read it, fortunatelly this is a free world.
@pindac thank's for the link.
R. |
Not if you don't abuse it and it is a good design.
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As for this thread, this type of information supply is moving away from the OP's initial inquiry.
we ask for opinions on fruit and we end up discussing sowing. LOL
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When my Interest in the Subject of Tonearm Design was noticed by the individual who helped me gather a furthering of Knowledge on the Subject. I was put onto the Website that is the supplied link, to see how certain aspects of a design are considered. I'm sure there will be content to intrigue all who share a interest in the Design of a Tonearm. As for this thread, this type of information supply is moving away from the OP's initial inquiry. http://korfaudio.com/ |
Dear @pindac : Again thank's for your answer. I don't know if your Be Spoken tonearm in use is that 1010 model where you made it the up-grade or is a totally new design.
I owned the IV and V and more that 40+ other top tonearms, vintage and today models, along several experiences in other room/systems and through all my over 40+ audio first hand experiences I learned very specific information on the critical audio subjects.
In the last 40-50 years the foundation of tonearm designs were/are changed almost nothing even in materials or quality design excecution.
We can have experiences with vintage tonearms that even today top tonearms just can't outperfor it.
I can name some of those vintage ones like: MS MAX 282, Lustre GST 801 or the EPA 100 MK2.
I decided to star my self tonearm design due that I was not totally satisfied with all what I experienced about.
I don't disassemble any tonearm to take a " look " and don't call or asked for support/advise/opinion of no one. The tonearm was designed/manufacturer starting from zero ( me and other audiophile. ) and that's why we took over 7 years to see the " ligth ".
We don't started listing the tonearm design overall targets but I started first learning one by one the true cartridge needs and I mean any cartridge: MM, MI, LOMC, ETc, etc. and tested over 200 different models of cartridges mounted in different tonearms and was when I understand exactly the cartridge needs when we started that tonearm design targets.
I'm still learning about cartridges and tonearms as a fact I always am in an endless room/system learning process and I'm always willing to learn even from n audio rookie/newcmer.
No, not my friend or I are really with high knowledge levels and skills in tonearm design when we started, we had the patience and attitude to learn through the very long process of more than 7 years. Am I an expert? not really as I said still learning.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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@pindac,
’Much of my information that is shared on this topic is a extension of a explanation that was supplied to myself as my options at the time I was investigating my Upgrade Options on a owned SME IV.’
That’s how most of us without first hand experience also learn: shared knowledge and experience.
@jorgjean,
’Is it not possible to post pictures in this forum?’
Other than upload them to your system page, none that I’m aware of.
Would be a useful feature, but I’m guessing it’s disabled to prevent excessive marketing here.
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I agree my knowledge levels are not great and I lack the savvy to produce or speak in equations.
It is going to be a struggle to translate my post into a DATA that has measurements to be analysed.
My knowledge is gained through regular communication with individuals who have Walked the Walk, not such as I who listens and Talks the Talk .
Much of my information that is shared on this topic is a extension of a explanation that was supplied to myself as my options at the time I was investigating my Upgrade Options on a owned SME IV.
With the knowledge that was made available, I was aware of how limited I was with the SME IV, at the same time as this a unique Tonearm Design that had been produced to overcome the limits I was becoming familiar with had made a impacting impression on me.
As a result I abandoned the SME IV and had a
Bespoke Custom Tonearm produced as its replacement.
I do not Build or Measure Tonearms, I entrust that to the Designers of the Produced Models.
I do know when a Tonearm is a real pleasure to use, and leaves a impression so strong that ownership of the design becomes the next obvious step.
When I received an explanation that the Tonearm that is making such a positive impression on myself, is producing the SQ as a result of a Design where the Lowest Friction is being achieved as a result of the Stability of the Materials being used and the Tolerances achievable for those materials, whether it be from a Part from a Manufacturer or a Purpose Machined Part.
I am happy to accept these explanations, as are quite a few other Tonearm Owners who are replacing their Tonearms and buying this Bespoke Tonearm Design.
I have been informed of all the Critical Parts in use and the Tolerances being achieved to be used on the Bespoke Build, but have not kept a list, and do not intend on attempting to do so.
This type of information is what I will call a Intellectual Property, and is not mine to share.
As already said of my having low levels of knowledge,I say that unashamedly,
but I do have a history of travelling, meeting and sharing in some very enjoyable experiences, especially where the HiFi Devices being auditioned have excelled in my perception.
During these endeavours I have met some extremely talented individuals who are respected and have a following for their Skills to the point others will travel to audition their latest works or even be placed on a waiting list for their chance to own a Design.
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Dear @pindac : "" materials have become more function specific than generic..... ""
this and other of your posts in other Agon threads are only showing your low knowledge levels in the different audio subjects because till now you don’t show facts that can prove what you state just like in that statement: where are those tonearm function specific materials you are talking about? because one thing is talk and the other give proves about. Please name not several materials but at least two function specific materials for today tonearm designs and manufacture it. I ask it in good shape because I'm really interested with due that we designed and manufactured a totally different tonearm kind of pivoted design where I have 3 of them mounted in my analog rig: so is important to know something that can help to that unique tonearm design. Can you?, thank’s.
In your other post talked about ceramic material in the tonearm bearing and this you posted with out knowing than ceramic is way resonant no matter what and it was proved through the audio year in analog rig items.
With all respect obviously that I don’t need an answer coming from a gentleman with no solid and true knowledge levels that perhaps is higher that what he showed here and else where, till this happens I will having same attitude with
. Obviously too that other persons like cd love it and no problem with because at the end only through a good dialogue with true knowledge coming from any whre always helps to improve our each one ignorance levels.
@cd318 : " Who would have guessed the connection between audio and dentistry? ""
some one like you with low knowledge on tonearm bearing kind and what a cartridge needs down there where you don’t need, say, 2K rpm.
Btw, pindac dead silence only confirm your low knowledge levels, bla, bla, bla,....bla is not enough for any one but the ones with similar knowledge levels than you.
R.
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On a sidenote:
It seems that there is a common understanding in the SME community and among dealers that the SME Van den Hul tonearm cables are a weak spot and need upgrading.
I run a test yesterday of a VdH MC D501 Silver Hybrid agains a Furutech AG-12. Imfound the VdH more open, bery clear and detailed. The Furutech warmer, less dynamic, less revealing.
That VdH I find is not so bad as its reputation.
Is it not possible to post pictures in this forum?
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Great contributions!
Response of the producer: no need for service - only if problems.
Response of SME tonearm specialist: No need for maintenace - only repair when needed.
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Technology has been ongoing in advancement, materials have become more function specific than generic, hence the application of this into New Conceptions of Design, or to use it on Designs already in use. |
@pindac,
Impressive stuff. Who would have guessed the connection between audio and dentistry?
’Modernisation, then before monies are spent, a understanding of what might be needing to be discussed will be a good Corner Stone to start the inquiries.’
Yes, relevant knowledge can be of considerable help in letting the individual decide if there’s anything to be gained sonically by upgrading/modernising.
Still it’s good to know that SME arms are held in high regard again after the ridiculing they were once routinely subjected to, even potentially 25 year old 309s!
’Today there are philosophies for Tonearm Designs that will be more focused on how to get the best from the mechanical interfaces for the parts used.’
As ever in engineering, the research goes on. Just reading about things like 3nm processor chips and lowest coefficient lubricants and micro bearings it’s easy to conclude that these are truly ’the days of miracle and wonder.’
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Dear @pindac : " My take on the OP’s original question, is to enjoy the New Acquired 309. "
Fine because that’s what the OP is looking for.
So all the other words in your post was for we all know what you think to know about tonearm today designs to satisfy the cartridge needs?
Only a simple question because certainly you are free to post everything you want it when you want it.
Regards and enjoy the MUASIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Your 309 will replay Music Just Fine and it will sit well on your TT.
As a design of Tonearm, I feel I am safe to say the 309 is
approx 25 years Old or is using Technology from Brand Siblings of that age or older.
At present you are looking into having it Serviced.
This as an idea can easily escalate into Considering having it Modernised because of the age of the design.
The idea of a Modernising if adopted will usually lead into the investigation of exchanges of the original Bearing Parts and replacing these with the latest equivalents.
Note: Micro Bearings are not produced solely for Tonearms,
they are commonly used as parts in Dental Equipment, where multi thousand revolutions are carried out in Short Bursts.
Tonearm Manufacturers adopt these parts to be used, hence the discussions to be found about about how these Bearings are best prepared to be used on a Tonearm.
As it can be found certain individuals believe the design of the Bearing needs secondary treatments to get them to their optimum for a Tonearms Function.
Today there are philosophies for Tonearm Designs that will be more focused on how to get the best from the mechanical interfaces for the parts used.
A common first step is to focus on the Micro Bearings, with a intention to reduce friction when in use.
As said some are known to carry out secondary treatments to a Micro Bearing, i.e,
flush the Bearing of any lubricant as the lubricant in use can cause a Friction if the lubricant has not got a very Low Coefficient of Friction.
Running the Bearing Dry will not necessary improve on the
Coefficient of Friction,
but there are reports that there are audible differences to be picked up on through doing this as a procedure and this has made this method grow in popular use.
Introducing Ceramic Bearings for their Low Coefficient of Friction is another measure adopted and the same again with the removal of any lubricant.
Additionally the Bearings Designs over time have increased their quantity of Ball Bearings, so exchanging a Older Design Bearing for a New Increased Number of Rollers in a Design has been seen as a upgrade,
as the Increased Number of Rollers will decrease surface area contact between each Rollers, hence to be seen as a Method to decrease Friction.
Running these Bearings flushed of lubricant will also be a method,
where the fundamental behind the Bearing Exchange and Removal of Lubricant is to decrease friction at the mechanical interfaces within the Tonearm.
Today there are purpose produced synthetic lubricants available,
that are of the Lowest Coefficient of Friction known.
These are industry specific and not easy to source from a common search method, knowing the name of the Substance is critical.
When a Lowest Coefficient Lubricant is used, it will surpass the performance Manufacturers Lubricant used on their Micro Bearings when the Bearing is to be used on a Tonearm,
the Lowest Coefficient Lubricant will prove much more beneficial to the Bearings Performance,
when added to a Micro Bearing that has had the Manufacturers Lubricant Flushed, against the option of running it dry.
If a modernising the Tonearm develops into having a focus on the on how to best treat the Bearing and Selecting a Internal Wiring that will be capable of creating the minimum of resistance when interfacing with the Tonearm.
When these considerations are combined and put into the Tonearm,
they will further the Design for a improved Tonearm that will not have been put into use by the Manufacturer on many if not all of their models.
The above are focused on the Mechanical Interfaces Only.
There are the Limitations of a Design through the chosen Geometry,
and the stability of other material choices, as these will have to have the utmost consideration for their suitability for the chosen usage and their reaction to being in the environment.
There is no point having a Part that is part of a Interface where a freedom of movement is critical, and the Part Absorbs Moisture in a Environment that is Humid, or shrinks when exposed to a certain temperature.
There are also in use to date Updated Methods,to Improve on Wand Damping, due to modern materials and there availability for usage.
My take on the OP's original question, is to enjoy the New Acquired 309.
It will replay music and should make the New Owner more than happy with the way it performs.
If the OP wants to go down any route for seeking a improvement,
from a Service, or extend to a Modernisation, then before monies are spent, a understanding of what might be needing to be discussed will be a good Corner Stone to start the inquiries. |
All i can say is that it is floating if the Anti Skating force is set to Zero. That should be a good sign in regard to the bearings.
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If it's not broken don't fix it.
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Grab the tonearm by the base with one hand and with the other the tonearm tube and giggle it slightly on the vertical than horizontally . If you feel no play or movement your good to go . If there is play in one plane or the other bearings need to be checked . Thats all to it . Rewiring is another thing .
Another way of checking bearing integrity ( normally the bearings are the only thing that needs to be checked ) is to put the tonearm on zero tracking force and while its floating give it a very slight push . If you see while its moving it gets slightly stuck it needs its bearings to be checked . If it just keeps on moving fluidly bearings normally are ok . Your good to go . |
I had something called a Helius Orion.....needed servicing after a few months. ...sent it back to England 2 or 3 times then sold it.
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I had my SME V serviced by the manufacturer. Mainly they upgraded the wires and a few other tweaks. This was 3 years ago. They were happy to do the work for a price. I am not sure they still do this having moved to a place where they only sell tonearms with new TT’s |
I would say in general, "no". That said you ought to ensure that:
1. your setup/alignment has not drifted out of spec2. the bearings -- if adjustable - are not loose (or tight)
The only wear and tear part is the bearing. If damaged it probably needs factory replacement - or certainly replacement and precision adjustment by someone who doesn't need to ask that question!
Unless it has been abused in some way, i still say "no". I have 30 and 40 year old arms that are un-serviced and work perfectly.
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If the arm works to your satisfaction you do not need service on the arm.
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but you must buy a perfect sample from an audiophiles, not a hardly used broken or damaged items.
shopping in the world if you do not buy NOS you cannot know how it was used by the previous owners who can also indicate that everything is fine and, then arrived home everything ok is not at all, the fault of the seller or the transporter, or different owners clumsy. I don't have the luck or even the money to buy NOS arms, so when I get them I send them to a trusted laboratory that revises or repairs them for me; if there is no need to do anything because it's perfect I don't pay for the service. I am happy and the situation is fine with me. |
Probably the best way is to ask SME. Checking the bearings i not a bad idea. Will post the recomendation.
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jorgjean OP49 posts08-30-2020 3:29amWhich parts did you service?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can get the pillar block bushing in bronze. All the rubber bushings are available. The Anti-skate has a pulley upgrade. I use brass screws and silicone washers to secure the base. You can convert the older style SME cable to RCA/Cardus, or any cable you like. I use MITs also. There are a few things you can do. Locate a breakdown of the Tonearm you're working on. Take good pictures, first. Make sure the parts you want to work on are correct. Have some way to magnify, and provide proper light. I must warn you, you need a good controlled grip. No coffee drinkin' before you start.. I use my other hand to cradle a lot of the work. I always work on a desk. BUT I usually put down brown wrapping paper, on the floor. I use white paper on the desk. I use a PANA Vice. Take the edges off you're common screwdrivers. Use green painters tape, cover the polished area, you're not working on. DON'T go crazy wrapping tape either. It's fun, do you like repairing watches? Not quit that teckie, but that kind of gentle handedness. Regards |
If you're not buying junk then you don't need service at all.
All the best Japanese high-end tonearm from the 70's/80's are just fine without any service, but you must buy a perfect sample from an audiophiles, not a hardly used broken or damaged items.
It's better to buy a NOS unit or a MINT condition sample.
I have many vintage tonearms in use, they are all perfect without service.
I would never buy any used tonearm with some defects related to bearings etc.
If the bearings are fine then all you need (maybe) is internal rewire, but even this is not always necessary!
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You must be thinking of last tango in Paris.
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Last Dance? Just hearing it makes me homicidal.
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i think jiffylube is running a special for labor day weekend :)
seriously, worry less, be happy. listen more!
lewm is spinning donna summer again |
Pretty sure they're talking about a different kind of lube, lewm.
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If you are not careful servicing your vintage tonearm, you will soon have a gaggle of baby tonearms to care for. So use protection.
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Unless that vintage tonearm has been run over by a vehicle or used as a hammer I'd leave it alone! Spoken as an owner of several nice vintage arms. |
Dear @jorgjean : That's a very specific question for a specific tonearm model and must be asked to the designer/manufacturer, to no one else.
What any one including me but the specific manufacturer can tell you has no value at all.
The main issue in a tonearm could be at the bearing and its condition depends more of the owners care of use than time.
Any person that is dedicated to refurbish tonearms always will tell you your tonearm needs " something " because it's his busine$s. Ask the manufacturer. Period. Wiring up-grade is different.
Regards and enjoy the MUSUIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
A simple enough question but the answer doesn't seem to be.
For example there seems to be quite a difference in opinion between running the bearings dry and using something like very light machine oil.
Then there's the issue of bearing tolerances.
Since virtually every arm maker boasts about the tightness of their tolerances, can anything be done for arms that have been badly handled, as in changing cartridges etc?
One piece arms must be particularly at risk, I guess.
I remember reading how some bearings are said to be fairly robust, but I suspect far too many are quite fragile.
Then there's the question of rewiring. Certain arms seem to be susceptible to tracking issues if the cable is unsuitable, environmentally aged, or even badly fitted. The relationship of the LP12 to its cable is a subject all in itself.
Yes, interesting question, I feel like we might need @best-groove to elucidate a bit further or someone like @atmasphere to come in and help. |
Check out SMEtonearms.com... no affiliation just an SME owner
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I really love tonearms even vintage ones, small micromechanical objects and I collect them; all the arms I buy in the world I send them to a trusted micro mechanics laboratory to have them overhauled.
The vintage tonearms bought used must always be revised if you want to keep them in perfect efficiency as new; bearings with hardened and out of tolerance grease and a lot of dirt stuck to it ... hardened and dried out connecting cables, lifter not work or without siliconic grease and other problems that are not noticed take functionality away from the initial design and the cartridge will never track to the best of its ability.
Around $ 150 should always be budgeted for an overhaul when buying a used vintage arm as they are delicate mechanics like watches, the tonearms at least once they must be serviced after purchase used, this is a guarantee of perfect functioning for many years to come.
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Which parts did you service?
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I own a few SMEs 3012s, 3009s. I did my own servicing.
You can use aftermarket upgrades, NOS or used. Everything needed is around, I'm sure. They are worth every penny.. I love um!
Regards |
