Do powercords make a difference in sound?

Paperw8, science is to explain observations. People hear a difference, the question for science is why? I strongly suggest that the easy rules of EE fail to account for all that is important.

But in audio reproduction the quest is realism. If a component or cable improves it that is enough for me. I have participated in the invalid 30 sec. same/different tests and cannot be certain of my answers but with a longer exposure, I have no difficulty. Frankly, I have no interest in double blind which to make an analogy is like assessing what cables sound like under different air pressures.

Frankly, I care little whether you give much credence to non-blind reviews or efforts to grasp how the better cable is better.

i've tended to stay away from this forum because i didn't like the way that the moderator blocked some of my posts, but we'll see if this one gets past the censor...

my advice is that you be vary skeptical of people who assert that there are discernible "sonic" differences between power cords, yet they can't give any explanation as to why that is the case. it's, like, all subjective, so the comments are subject to exogenous influences that have nothing to do with electronics.

you are dealing with expectations: a person who is willing to go out and get a power cord is someone who is seeking a better audio experience; so they are starting out *hoping* that the power cord will make their system sound better. this is aided by visually appealing packaging: expensive-looking packaging, impressive-looking cord thicknesses/end connectors and aesthetically appealing cord sheathing.

you are dealing with personal biases: a person who has already spend a few hundred (if not thousand) dollars on a power cord has a need to feel that he hasn't wasted his money. so, of course such a person will tell you that the power cord made an "immense" difference in his system, even if he can't tell you why.

one of the things that hurts the credibility of high end audio is all the bs and pseudo-science that is promoted to justify $30,000 speaker cables (that you can buy at radio shack for $0.40/foot) and various other "tweaks", which purported make your system sound better. add to this the role of "audiophile" reviewers who often has conflicts of interest in the products that they review (which are not disclosed to the readers).

until i hear one of these reviewers conduct their reviews in blind testing, where they have to comment on the "sonic" qualities of the system without knowing which cords are being used (or even if the cords have been switched from one test to the next), i will not give much credence to the assertions (offered without explanation) of how various cords improve the "sonic" quality of a given component or system.

Mrtennis, my sincere apologies if I offended you before.

I was able to find and thought of lifting quotes from this site where you describe the sound characteristics of particular components, something you suggest cannot be done. But, frankly, it would not be done in kindness, and perhaps you would take umbrage.

I find little value in continuing the argument. It's time to refocus on writing.

Blessings to you. :)

hi tbg:

i disagree, but it seems each one of us looks at words and has his own interpretation.

for a reviewer to say there is a benefit of the second amp is not a review.

i would never use such terms in my review.

i have already stated what a review is , namely a statement of the affect of a component upon the sound of a stereo system.

The voices tell me all of you are nutty!!!! I really do hear voices.

Mrtennis, "if you compare the comments you can discern the affect of the amplifier change upon the stereo system, but you cannot describe the sound of either amplifier." There is no need to do so. There was a benefit of the second amp over the first. This is all the reviewer need to be concern with.

Diophantine equations are a smoke screen.

Rrpg: "There is one thing I have noticed. When something sounds good everybody knows it."

I wish I had $10 for every audio club meeting at which there were disputes on what sounded good and what didn't.

hi doug:

you have misrepresented my statements and you display an ignorance of mathematics. this is not a matter of philosophy.
the issue concerns mathematics, and specifically the concept of a diophantine equation.

it's really quite simple. i indicated the nature of the relationship between a stereo system and the components therein in functional form.

first , let's construct a paradigm.

you listen to a stereo system for the first time.

thus you do not know what any individual component sounds like.

you can listen to the stereo system as long as you wish. you can't isolate the sound of a component and describe it, because you are listening to the sound of a stereo system.
you are not listening to one component

next, you substitute, say another amplifier. the sound of a the stereo system changes.

all you can say is the insertion of the amplifier produced a change in the sound of a stereo system, and describe the sound of the stereo system.

in the end, you have created comments about two stereo systems.

if you compare the comments you can discern the affect of the amplifier change upon the stereo system, but you cannot describe the sound of either amplifier.

so, a review is essentially, a discussion of the affect of the sound of the review sample upon the sound of a stereo system. a review does not describe the sound of the review sample.

if you state that a component has a sound, and describe it, you are being illogical, violating the laws of mathematics, and lying to your readers.

your suggestions regarding a caveat to the reader are a non-sequitur.

you are welcome to read my reviews and comment as you see fit, but your reasoning is unsound.

you should learn some mathematics before you speak.

On a practical side.....how many of us have a hodgepodge of cords of different models and manufacturers or worse, running into a conditioner where any difference is homogenized and ultimately inaudible? I know that's my case.

I wholehearteldy agree with the approach of upgrading the outlets and having a dedicated line and stopping right there.

Tbg, Mrtennis will almost invariably take an audiophile reductionist/agnostic viewpoint, i.e. that one can know little to nothing about sound, setting up systems, etc. absolutely.

While this may be true philosophically, I find it obfuscates learning about putting together high end systems. I find it of little value in actually assembling better sounding rigs.

My understanding is that Mrtennis objected to my statement that I can tell the sonic characteristics of sets of cables. I'll stand by my claim that one can indeed utilize cables to achieve a certain result in systems when they know the character of the cables' sound.

So, what do you think, Tbg; what if you used a set of cables in five different systems and the results were consistent every time (but obviously not identical as each system is discreet) in regards to their sound as compared to different cables - would you accept that those cables had a particular sound quality? Or would you take the position of Mrtennis that you can't know what a component sounds like?

I'm not into philosophical ramblings, especially when they're self-evident like Mrtennis's last post. I'm into practical methods of building better audio systems. But everyone's got their own philosophy and methodology. :)

Douglas_schroeder, you say that Mrtennis is saying, "I can't really determine what this component sounds like because I used it in a system, and I have no clue what it might sound like in your system. Weight my comments accordingly."
Apart from the last part of what you say he is saying, it is a true statement in my opinion. As reviewers, we have to hope as do our readers that there is a good deal of communality between our systems, hearing, and tastes. I suspect there is but this sharing is not total. Every time I attend a show and learn what rooms are rated "best sounding" and I totally disagree, I am aware of the lack of sharing.

At its best reviewers, I think, can say this component, cable, etc. deserves your serious consideration. I have also learned over time, that from some reviewers I should ignore this recommendation.

Rwwear, ok, I respect your response, thank you.

When discussing with Liguy it appeared that he had tried only similar cables and was now interested in trying ones with dissimilar build/design. Is that perhaps also the case for you?

I'm sure the Krell amps have been very high performers. I currently am using (for review) some top level amps and they show a clear change in sound with various power cords. So, I'm not inclined to believe that the power supply quality diminishes the influence of power cords.

I would imagine that if a person worked in the industry and saw a case of overcharging or misrepresenting the quality/technology of the cabling they would be quite digusted and consider it hokum. But shenanigans by a company in the industry would not prove that cabling with different designs, conductors, etc. cannot sound different. Again, the fact that there is little "solid ground" on which an audiophile can stand in determining the quality/validity of cables in general (i.e. regarding price to performance ratio) does not negate the sonic effect of various designs.

Mrtennis, given your perspective in this matter perhaps your reviews should come with a disclaimer:

"I can't really determine what this component sounds like because I used it in a system, and I have no clue what it might sound like in your system. Weight my comments accordingly."

Perhaps you could use all your philosophy to develop a new method of reviewing, one in which only the component sans the rest of the system could be used. Then you would be able to say:

"I can't really determine what this component sounds like because I didn't use it in a system, and I have no clue what it will sound like in your system. Weight my comments accordingly." :)

I'm not getting suckered into a flame-war, and obviously won't respond to someone who has resorted to calling names. Anyone can click on the "This Thread" button under my or any other member's posts here and determine for themselves who contributed what to the discussion. My regards to those many who participated with diligence and in earnest.

I spent $300 for new wall sockets and PS Jewel power cords... some here pay that for a single interconnect. The audible difference in base performance and reduction of irritants in sound was well worth it.

Having done electrical construction long ago I strongly suggest anyone start first with replacing the wall sockets with heavy duty sockets...the plug in your wall is likely the cheapest garbage possible and you won't benefit much from connecting a heavy duty power cable to a pot metal wall socket.

hi doug :

your logic is faulty.

you cannot know what any component sounds like.

i'll let you figure that out or prove to me how you can determine the sound of any component.

when you listen, you hear what comes out of a pair of speakers. there are many variables and there is insufficient information to figure out the sound of a component.

when you talk about differences in the sound of components, uyou really are observing the affect of changing components upon the sound of a stereo system.

let me put in equation form: ss=f(c(i)), that is the sound of a stereo system is a function of the sound of the components within the stereo system. what is the equation ?? it is impossible to specify the equation and solve for the independent vraiables.

hi doug :

your logic is faulty.

you cannot know what any component sounds like.

i'll let you figure that out or prove to me how you can determine the sound of any component.

when you listen, you hear what comes out of a pair of speakers. there are many variables and there is insufficient information to figure out the sound of a component.

I have no problem with you Douglas. But I do with Zaikesman. He appears to be a jackass.
I have tried different PCs in my system and have never heard any difference. I have always had Krell amps up until recently so I'm sure the power supplies were up to very high standards. Maybe that's a possible reason I never heard differences. But I don't really think so.
I once worked for a company that designed high end audio equipment and power cords.
'Nuff said.

Rwwear, I'll pick up cordially on your comment, "My assertion was for those unfortunately hard of understanding is that you can not compare dozens of cables and remember what the first one sounded like. If you can, you're an amazing person."

Well, thank you, I guess I'm an amazing person, because I do recall what the different cords did in various systems. If you would compare sets of cables like I do you would likely hear the "character" or specific sound of the cables, which in reality is fairly easy to categorize, similar to taking a drink of a new beverage. I do slot cables into mental categories based on their use in multiple systems. I do believe that if I were to return to those cables again I would hear the same effect from using them, just like returning to the beverage once tasted.

Now, is that amazing? I don't think so. :)

Anyway, to return to the topic of the thread, I do not need to remember the sound of dozens of types of cables to prove my point. I need only argue that there is a sonic difference between two types/sets of cables. There is no point in my arguing that I can recall various cables, but there is a good point in my arguing that any given set of two cables likely will sound different from each other. If you wish to apply this argument to power cords specifically, feel free, as I believe it pertains.

The pertinent question now is, Rwwear, have you actually conducted comparisons between sets of cables? Merely listening to "everything out there" is not the same. And frankly, I do not care how many years you have been in the audio business; this is not a matter of time in the game, but rather specific experience which you may not have. Have you run listening tests between two or three brands of power cords? Have you tried two different sets of cables (power/IC/SC)?

If you have and didn't hear the difference, I respect that. Then simply say so. But if you haven't, then you owe it to yourself to try.

Mapman, yours is an interesting argument technically to say that IC/SC is in the signal path but that power cords are not. I take a very pragmatic approach to audio; if it influences the sound, it's considered efficacious. I think we would agree that if power cords do influence the sound it would be due to being far more directly involved electronically than various tweaks which have at best only a physical contact to the component and at worst no contact nor demonstrable influence upon the sound waves.

So, in practical parlance it matters little to me if the power cord is "in signal" or "out signal" - I find they alter the system performance powerfully (pun!). They influence the electronics which influence the signal.

"Mapman, I think by your logic on pcs not making any sound, only speakers would have a sound."

It's true that there is no sound without speakers, so technically that is correct.

But ICs and speaker wires are at least in the signal path along with the other components. I do believe that the choice of components used in the signal path does directly determine the resulting sound.

Not so sure with power cords though. Better/cleaner delivery of power more enables the devices that the electric audio signal passes through to do what it is they already do better.

I suppose its all relative. Everything has to work well and well together for best results. Plenty of clean power helps. The power cord is definitely part of the game.

I see these threads often. Every single time nay-sayers activists jump in to prove that there is no possible difference in sound. The truth is that THEY cannot hear what other people can and instead of admitting it they go into denial. As a result they jump into every cable thread to tell other people that they cannot possibly hear the difference. Their ego is hurt and they quote any possible thing to substantiate their claim - like education or number of years being audiophile or number of cables the listened to. GROW UP PEOPLE - IT IS PATHETIC.

Mapman, I think by your logic on pcs not making any sound, only speakers would have a sound.

The simplest answer is: maybe.

No doubt they can.

But in some cases they may not.

Also, when this topic comes up, I like to point out that powercords do not have a "sound". What they have is the ability to affect the quality of the sound the device they help power makes. That will vary by device and is not an attribute of the powercord itself.

Rwwear, I do entirely agree that one cannot compare a large number of cables. But two is no problem. But this is a different issue than saying cables are over-engineered and that cable design is not rocket science implying that differences between the sounds of different cables are minor.

The original post asked if there were differences. I would say absolutely with some being substantial; how would you answer?

I rest my case. Buh-bye!

People like you ZMan make places like this no fun. You are an idiot to believe I have not listened to almost everything out there. I have been in the audio business for almost thirty years. My assertion was for those unfortunately hard of understanding is that you can not compare dozens of cables and remember what the first one sounded like. If you can, you're an amazing person. The only thing so far that you've shown me is how amazingly poor your since of humor is. This is audio not a life or death situation. If you get mad because someone doesn't agree with your hypothesis then I don't really give a rat's ass.

Snicker snicker yourself Rwwear -- yours is hands-down the most comical assertion posted here:

"If you have compared dozens upon dozens of cables I submit your judgement will become convoluted"

If you have compared no cables, I submit your judgement will be worth about the server space taken up by your, er, 'contributions' to this thread.

Who is more of a "fanatic" -- someone who reaches their conclusions through repeated critical listening, or someone who has predetermined a conclusion without listening?

Oops - sorry for accidental (wrong forum) irrelevant post.

Rwwear, life is uncertain.

By the way, I can't prove there's no Tooth Fairy either.

I don't care. You didn't ask the question Tbg.

"Digital recording is definitely superior to any other form of recording we know".

Herbert von Karajan

Rwwear, yours is just one side of the constant argument about hearing differences. I just compared two identical cables other than one using long linear crystal copper and the other silver, anyone who could not hear the improvement of the silver should invest very little into reproducing music. But my only dispute with those holding your position is why you care that I don't hold with your position. You cannot provide proof that there are no better or worse pcs. Please don't tell me of the same/different 30 sec. comparisons, they are invalid measures of what people hear.

Mapman, I only alluded to NASA because of this trite phrase, not rocket science. I do know a guy that used to be in NASA who got surplus electrical wire, he prefers newer stuff. He assured me that current capacity was not their only concern.

Your arguments for are much the same as my arguments against.

Rwwear, skepticism is allowed.

Does a conductor's judgment become convoluted by hearing dozens of symphonies?

Does a circuit designer's judgment become convoluted by designing dozens of circuits?

Your argument that the more experience I have makes me less of a good judge of a phenomenon is weak.

I used to be every bit as skeptical, until I got over it (i.e. put my pride aside and actually compared).

BTW, I don't disagree that humans are horrible at double blind listening tests. However, I also insist that humans have phenomenal capacity to hear distinctions in sound/music. The rub is that I believe we have poor acoustic memory, which makes us poor at the testing. So, both are true; there are differences in sound which are easily heard, but we are poor at matching/identifying precisely sound snippets under tightly controlled conditions.

Based on studies about recall and the human mind (i.e. how poor people are at describing/recalling details to police what they saw as an eyewitness) I think I have pretty good ground to stand on for my position. :)

we live in a stochastic world. there is a probability that power cords make a difference.

in the broader scheme of things it doesn't matter if there is a disagreement on this subject. if a consumer believes and hears a difference, that is all that matters.oo

You may take it as you may. If you have compared dozens upon dozens of cables I submit your judgement will become convoluted very easily after just a few. Unless you have a number of folks doing blind listening without outside influence and being sure to take notes, it would be in the least very difficult to believe your claims by me. I'm not insulting your methods, they are just hearsay if using a scientific approach. I have heard so many claims that just don't hold up under scrutiny that I have to have irrefutable evidence before I will begin to believe unlikely statements such as being able to hear the difference between copper and silver power cables. I am not saying you can't. I am just very skeptical.

Rwwear, I'll take that title "fanatic" as a complement. :)
If using several sets of cables in comparison is fanatical, then it applies. If facilitating dozens upon dozens of real world comparisons on the effects of cables (including comparison of silver vs. copper conductors) is fanatical, then it applies. :)

Tbg,

Sounds like we agree on more than disagree.

I wouldn't compare the technical complexity of building a good PC or launching a successful space mission to that required of a power cord though. Very poor analogies!

Plus the space program is government funded therefore I would look there for innovation perhaps but not value.

Succesful commercial computer technologies tend to deliver both or do not survive.

High end wires are a boutique market with limited market. By their nature, they have to be expensive in order to survive. Only a select few will see value for whatever reason.

I might like to buy NASA mission grade surplus power cords if available for market value. Anybody know of such a thing? I think I have seen some power receptacles around this site that are of similar lineage.

BIG TIME HELLO!!

Mapman, I'm sorry, but as I said that doesn't make your case. I doubt seriously given my experiences that many pcs are well engineered or as I would prefer, designed. As we know from NASA, neither are rockets perfectly designed and trajectories perfect, or we would not need midcourse corrections.

I don't expect to alter your opinion, and you should not expect to alter mine. I would never argue that a power cord can solve all the problems with unclean power. Maybe Enid Lumley was right a long time ago, when she said we all need to generate our own power off grid.

All I can really say is that I have heard changes on the same component of many different power cords. Their impacts varied greatly. I certainly don't have cheap power cords, but I have seldom heard benefits provided by very expensive power cords to justify their prices.

TBG,

I said some PCs are overengineered and overpriced and not a good value, not all.

I'll stand by that assertion with no problem whatsoever.

ALso that making a good power cord is not rocket science.

GEtting lots of clean power when needed in general can be an issue in many but not all cases. A power cord alone cannot solve that problem when present.

Ha Ha. I tried being serious but nothing works when your dealing with a fanatic.

Mapman, you say much, such as pcs being overengineered, just overpriced, and not a good value. I am quite comfortable with you holding those as your personal opinions but they have no credence as to being true. I have no idea why you might argue they are over-engineered or how that would be evidenced.

At least you don't resort to Rwwear's nonsense.

Even funnier.

Funny? Hardly. Back to the Wireworld; I did direct comparison between two models of interconnects and speaker cables with only the conductor (copper vs. silver over copper) different. The change in sound was no laughing matter.

But remember, one has to have a good system, a good room and good hearing or else the distinction will be moderated.

Clean power does, however best that is achieved.

Power cords alone may be hit or miss. Current delivery capability and a good ground are keys. This is not rocket science. Personally I believe a lot of power cords are overengineered for the task at hand or sometimes just overpriced and not a good value.

Funny Doug.

Rwwear, my point wasn't the ofc (oxygen free copper) as the cable being silver coated copper. A silver conductor sounds quite a bit different than copper.