Do I still need a DDC in between?

@mattw73 My uDac suddenly opened up and delivered all the good stuff at around the 250-hour mark—this was a few days after I connected the U18 to the Ultra and swapped the USB/HDMI cables for a DH Labs Mirage and HDMI 2.1. Its ultimate performance is also due in part to those upgrades. If you’re unsure where the leaner bass is coming from, just swap the uDac with the Pontus while keeping everything else the same—you’ll know right away.  But I understand you probably want to make that comparison when uDac is fully burned in.

As for the Volumio app, it’s disappointing compared to others. Qobuz Connect or UPnP apps such as mConnect are good alternatives. In particular, QC works well with the Rivo Plus—it’s never had dropouts and holds up better than QC on the Wiim. However, Volumio does sound noticeably better than either QC or mConnect. That’s why I tolerate its bugs and still use it for playback.

I just got the LHY LPS yesterday, and it further darkens the background. At lower listening levels, the articulation of both high and low notes has taken a step up. All of its digital outputs—SPDIF (AES & coax) and I²S—sound similar to my ears at this moment.

I don’t have a higher-end preamp yet. When I used the Saga2 with the uDac, I found the sound slightly colored and somewhat restrained—not as transparent as running without it. So, I took it out of the chain and now use the Wiim’s 32-bit processor with its harmless ’relayGain’ for volume control. With that technology, I can no longer criticize digital attenuation in the system, which gives no hint of signal loss even at low volume.

Lastly, It’s my expectation that the uDac will perform well—up to a certain percentage of the Pontus 15th. But please tell me, once it’s fully broken in, how it compares to the Pontus in terms of imaging and soundstage dimensions (width, height, and depth), assuming everything else is controlled.

@lanx0003 well it took awhile for the uDac to get here so I've only had it in system for 19 to 20 days now. Last Sunday or Monday was the 1st time I noticed the dac adding some harmonic weight to notes..drums falling further back into the stage..some better separation of instruments in space. I was already somewhat happy with it & at the moment I know I'm keeping it. I really like the size & found a preamp that has been a whole lot of fun with the uDac. The Laiv isn't on the level of my Pontus 15th but I was never expecting that. I really had no expectations of the Laiv & I haven't been overly critical about it. I do love its small size. 

I have quite a few preamps but I bought a Schitt Freya Noval off the 2nd hand market. Bunch of people been raving about the Freya Plus for years & I just assumed it's a mediocre product..for whatever reason. I grabbed the Noval because of the enormous amounts of different tubes one can roll...& because I already own a bunch. When I first tried it it was ok. Lacked some resolution & wow factor but good stage & space between the speakers. After listening to it for a couple hours I busted into it & replaced some capacitors & upgraded the output caps. Not even my best caps but you need 4 of them due to the preamps balanced nature & I don't usually buy caps in quantities of 4. But I had four mundorf aluminum oils in a much bigger value than what was in the Freya. They were intended for 2 other projects but I had them on hand...it was destiny. I squeezed some 5.6uF in there & felt that should really help with its low output impedance & slightly rolled off bass. It made a huge difference. No "giant killer" but with the uDac I have had so much fun listening to music the last couple days. 

Soundstage has depth, dark space, & brought a different level of disappearance to the speakers. Dynamics that will make me flinch with certain tracks. Male vocals can get real chesty. I'm having fun listening to certain genres. And then the tubes used can add & subtract certain perceptions & sound emphasis. I'm pretty giddy about this unsuspecting Noval & uDac pairing. I'm only second guessing the output caps I used & probably could have improved it more had I been patient & spent some money. But for the price of these 2 pieces & the enjoyment im getting is pretty cool. 

I do have a question for you. How long til your uDac hit its sweet spot? 

And yeah, I've been eyeing the Rivo Plus since it came out. Heck I wanted the original Rivo. I was curious about the software though. We now have a U.S. Rivo dealer pretty close to me in Orlando. Hifi Boutique I think is the name of their store. They are known for doing trade-ins so if I go that route that could be helpful. 

We just switched to fiber internet & I don't have hard wire LAN near my streamers now. Switching to WiFi & my IFI NEO & ZEN stream both have issues. I'm either going to need to get hard wired again or find a brand that works well on WIFI. The NEO stream i2s output to the uDac was pretty good..bass wasn't the greatest though.  I don't know if it was the uDac or the streamer though. I was kept telling myself the uDac hadn't settled yet. 

@sls883  Same here, although it already has pretty low jitter and electrical noise at digital out — one of the best. I was more interested in either the U18 or the Micro DDC, since both support a 10 MHz clock, but the U18 offers much better value and it pairs so well with Ultra.
 

@lanx0003 I went back through these posts and saw Singxer su-6 recommended.  I looked at it and it doesn’t have a clock input.  That doesn’t appeal to me. 

@sls883  No worry. I need to part with the Ultra now, as it’s going to my son tomorrow. I’ve been holding on to it at home, but he finally bought a turntable. I really enjoyed having fun with it over the past few months.  Thanks.
 

@lanx0003 sorry, I missed your question about the Wiim Ultra.  It went to Lincoln with my son, so I wasn't able to try it in my system. 

@mattw73  Is your micro dac fully broken in yet?  It should be about time, right.  What is you verdict?

I finally purchased the Rivo plue.  Hans and many others were not exaggerating, it is on another league from those entry levels and on par with if not exceeding higher end such as Innuos zen / zenith mk iii.  But the Volumio app is the limiting factor.  Fortunately, Qobuz Connect works well with it.

@mattw73   I don’t know about Denafrips’ customer service after they shifted their dealership from VinShine, as I don’t own any of their products. But with Laiv, I’ve had numerous correspondences—technical questions and product inquiries—and I always receive first-hand responses from either Weng or Soon within 24 working hours (there is 12 hrs time diff.).  Great service, bar none.

@sls883  You’re right about the I²S compatibility. I moved the U18 to pair with the Topping D90III Discrete via I²S, and there’s no static noise—so it seems there’s no issue with the used U18 I got. Now, my second rig sounds noticeably better, again, with the Wiim Ultra + U18 combo.

I recall you mentioned trying to get a Wiim Ultra for your son. Is it still around? If so, I’m curious whether you could conduct a no-confirmation-bias comparison between that combo and the Innuos Zenith Mk III (if that’s the one you have), to see how closely the combo performs against the Zenith. Is it doable?  Thx.

@lanx0003 I would say that my expectations aren't too high..as I don't know for certain what to expect. I'm thinking maybe a slight loss of inner detail & slightly added distortion/warmth with the Laiv. I just don't know..but I would be ok with that outcome. There are a lot of very positive user reviews on the uDac. Where it just seems to hit the right "musical" spot. 

15th is a great dac. I have a feeling that the Laiv is too. I will say that customer service or correspondence is better thru Laiv. More engaging & he seems to take a real interest in the customer. I appreciate that & it means something to me. 

@mattw73  I think you won’t be disappointed, but your expectations might be different. I came from a flat SS, uninvolving DAC, whereas you had the Pontus 15th. The DH Labs HDMI cable and U18 DDC also make a difference to my system, but you already had quality cabling in place. I’m just grateful I took your advice to be patient—the payoff has been great.

@lanx0003 I agree that there is a lot of contradictory information out there on various topics. Im a little ignorant when it comes to digital/streaming so misinformation in that arena can really set me back lol. 

Side Note- I ordered a Laiv uDac today. Still have my Pontus 15th but I've been wanting to get a feel of a different R2R..I wanted to try the micro dac. Especially after you personally preferred it over your D90 III. 

@mattw73  Some one confirms that frequency is determined by data speed and I think Cat 8 cable is not noisier (than cat 6) that produces more EMI/RFI.  There is alot misinfor. out there.  

@lanx0003 well I think both cables are properly shielded..I guess the solid core didn't make a difference. In my case the Lanshack was shorter than the Ugreen. But any benefits I perceived between the 2 could very well be mind games. At least none of these cables are expensive. And yes, you lose some flexibility with solid core conductor cable. 

As you know going to Cat6 is not really a downgrade. Cat8 is well beyond what is needed. I went that route with the Lanshack as it seemed like it's the best (overkill) LAN cable they offered. It does lack the gold though. Oh yeah, the one you posted is the exact one I went with. 

@mattw73 I was using a Ugreen before the LanShack. Hopefully you will perceive the improvement I did.

This time, I’m not sure if I hear a discernible difference. In any case, both are better than the unshielded Cat 5e. The cable is beefy and well-constructed—just a bit stiff due to the solid conductors.  Nevertheless, I will possibly ’downgrade’ to Cat 6A, which uses a maximum bandwidth frequency of 500 MHz, instead of 2000 MHz on cat 8, as the latter is more prone to EMI/RFI if not properly grounded on one end. LanShack offers cables with similar specifications.

@lanx0003 for sure.  I think I'd ask for a replacement. 

@sls883  Could be, but it could also be defective, since I had no issue with the other DDC.

@lanx0003 mine has never done that.  Not even once.

I'm going Gustard to Gustard, so the I2s connection was easy. 

@sls883 

I was convinced that the Wiim Ultra / Gustard U18 combo performs quite well. Along with the Harmony Micro DAC and upgraded cabling, the system's sound can be described in three words: effortless, transparent, and depth-dealing. I like it very much and I believe it actually outperforms many higher end streamers.

One thing I’d like to check with you—and I hope you can confirm—is this: remember I mentioned the 'static' noise that occurred when the U18 was initially connected to my system? I finally figured out that it’s caused by the I²S channel not receiving a signal while idling. As soon as music starts playing and a signal is present, the noise disappears and the background stays quiet and dark until the unit is powered off and on again. I was advised not to worry about it, but I’d appreciate it if you could confirm whether your U18 ever behaves this way. Please let me know.  I may need to swap it out with a brand new, trouble free one.

@lanx0003 you got it!

@mattw73 Good call on the UGREEN cable! I have lots of high-end cables throughout my system but hadn’t yet bought a decent LAN cable - for whatever reason I wasn’t thinking it would make much difference. I subbed out my cheap cable for your bargain cable and immediately enjoyed better sound. 

@mattw73  Same here. I had the UGreen USB-A to Lightning dongle for my EarPods after comparing 2–3 products side by side. That’s why I picked one up this time without hesitation, even though other brands have gold-plated RJ45 connectors—which LanShack doesn’t have either. I hope I ordered the right one. Is this it?

@lanx0003 I was using a Ugreen before the LanShack. Hopefully you will perceive the improvement I did. Ugreen actually makes quite a few extremely cheap cables that are properly shielded & good in my opinion. If you go into their Amazon home page/store & go into their categories you will see a wide assortment of video/audio products. Dirt cheap. A couple years ago they use to carry these little usb-c to 3.5mm dongle dacs. Get a 2-pack for like $16 bucks & I swear they were so good lol. 

@sls883  I like the WiiM Ultra + U18 combo more and more each time I switch from going USB straight into the microDAC. The soundstage, clarity, reverb, and other aspects are all improved. Coincidentally, another listening section tonight has made me rethink the whole idea of replacing this combo of wonder with a supposedly better streamer.

Feeding an external 10MHz clock to synchronize the streamer/DDC and DAC is still an exciting and promising concept that's on my mind. Whether it would actually outperform—or even match—the results of a higher-end streamer or vice versa remains uncertain. I need to sleep on it.  I still have some time to think this through.

I like my U18 despite the negative opinions.  Especially in combination with my LHY ock-2 clock.  But, I'm using it to convert USB to I2s. 

I don't know if it would help much if you could go I2s to I2s. Probably depends on the gear that you're using.  It's too bad that you can't keep it long enough to try it. 

@audphile1  Thanks for suggesting I change out my Ethernet cable — it made a significant improvement.

@mattw73  While waiting for the LanShack cable (S/FTP) to arrive, I also grabbed a UGreen Cat 8 (F/FTP) cable from Amazon for just six bucks. Upgrading my existing Cat 5e (U/UTP) to UGreen Cat 8 resulted in a significant improvement in sound clarity and a darker background. It also helped eliminate some digital glare. I believe this is largely due to the double shielding feature of Cat 8.  The degree of improvement is comparable to what I experienced with HDMI cable upgrade from AG to DH Labs.

The UGreen cable is made of 26 AWG stranded copper, while the LanShack uses 23 AWG solid copper, which I hope will yield additional sonic benefits. I believe in larger conductor and solid copper over stranded.  Thank you for the recommendation.

You’re too jittery mah man. Chillax. 

@sns I was simply helping to clarify the confusion @audphile1 has with the confirmation from the manufacturer.  All right?  Cool.

@lanx0003 I don't know what you're problem is, yes, I'm agreeing with you, the ddc clock bypasses the dac local clock, I've only said the same thing time after time! Perhaps I've called it internal I2S clock, local clock, master clock, its all the same thing. You really need to gain some reading comprehension skills, I'm done with this silliness.

Once again, if the user opts for the "I2S clock," the DAC or micro DAC will be slaved to the DDC’s clock and will use the I2S clock unless it becomes unstable or incompatible. This is a unique design feature of the Harmony. Still not convinced? Take a look at Harmony’s email response:

When you select “I2S Clock” and it is stable and compatible, the µDAC will indeed lock to and use the incoming I2S clock signal instead of its internal local DAC clock.

In this case, the local DAC clock is effectively bypassed, meaning it is not used during playback. The µDAC will rely fully on the external I2S clock.

It is amazing that some AGs here presume they know everything...

Wait I’m confused….

I thought there isn’t a scenario where the DAC master clock is bypassed. Doesn’t matter what input you use the DAC clock has to provide timing reference for the Digital to analog conversion. Where is it stated that the internal clock is bypassed if i2s input is used? 
Is there a clock sync on the LAiV DAC?

So instead of calling internal clock in dac I2S clock, it is most commonly or rightly called the master clock, this clock positioned adjacent to digital to analog conversion circuitry. Only a ddc or streamer with I2S clock can replace the internal master clock in dac. Using usb or any other input cannot defeat or bypass the internal master clock. The only reason external I2S clock can replace this dac master clock is it's use of I2S protocol. 

@moonwatcher You are welcome.  It is interesting that you are curious about the Rivo+ jitter performance.  There is no measurement yet since it is just released but I found the measurement for Motivo, which is basically Rivio+ plus the DAC and headphone amp.  Their streaming circuit and performance is neck to neck according to iiwi but the Rivo+ has a slight edge.  See below.

The average (Lt / Rt channel combined) RMS (or so-called 1-sigma) jitter is around 8.2ps (I am not sure which output this measurement is taken from though). See yellow highlighted.  Quite impressive.  

@lanx0003 ah, that Singxer SU-6 looks a lot better...Thanks. Just wonder what numbers the OP would end up with going directly from his Volumio Rivo Plus to the LAIV Harmony DAC via I2S? Would they be helped by the Singxer SU-6? 

Thanks for the input. It is telling that often specs that are advertised aren't always necessarily the ones to be basing purchasing decisions upon. 

@mattw73  Thank you for the recommendation. I like that the cable is affordable, and Cat 6a is more than sufficient for audio applications. I’ll gladly take a $15 cable as long as it works. For the same length, a DH Labs Ethernet cable would cost ten times more (around $300). I’ll definitely give it a try.

@moonwatcher The 38fs is the jitter rms level in the femto CO (crystal oscillator).  The jitter level at outputs can not be that low.  Here are some measurements taken from coaxial output of various DDCs by Goldensound for their RMS electrical noise and jitter noise at 48khz.

                                  Jitter(rms)   Electrical(rms)   Jitter(peak)  Electrical(peak)

Holo Red                     73ps           2.97mV                213ps           12.9mV

Singxer SU-6              75ps           3.3mV                  225ps            13.7mV

Singxer SU-2 KTE      85ps           3.2mV                247ps            13mV

Gustard U18             453ps           5.2mV                1133ps            22mV

You could see U18 jitter and electrical noise performance is lagging.  That is why I mentioned I could pick up better DDC like SU-6 or micro DDC later on if needed.

@lanx0003 when I went to the last audio show in Florida the DH Labs guys were there. I literally had the Mirage USB in hand to purchase & we started talking cables & equipment. He ended up telling me if I was only going to buy one cable he recommended his Ethernet cable. Saying it would give me the better result over switching my USB cable. 

Unfortunately for him I ended up not buying either cable because I wasn't exactly sure what exact length I needed in Ethernet form. I still haven't committed to buying the best I can afford as I know my current streaming set up will be moving. But I did go to LanShack & get custom length 23awg solid copper conductor Cat8 for now. Individual twisted pair shielding with outer braid shielding as well. An improvement over my basic cable & didn't cost much. Connectors are not as nice as the DH Labs Reunion cable. 

Your Gustard U18 mitigates jitter to as low as 38fs according to the specs. Have you seen anything in the other DAC or source that says they beat that? 

@sns  I am not trying to be argumentative but I respectfully disagree with the generalization you have made regarding:

I2S is the native digital pathway in every dac, this is the DEFAULT clock used regardless of input chosen.

"local clock is in FACT a I2S clock", "just a matter of semantics"

That directly conflicts with the statement in the manual: 'When users switch to other digital inputs, the DAC seamlessly transitions back to using the local clock.' When other inputs are selected, there is no such thing as an 'I²S clock' in that timing information is not pipelined separately from the signal data. Please be precise with the terminology. You may want to double-check with Harmony.

@lanx0003 You're misunderstanding me. I2S is the native digital pathway in every dac, this is the DEFAULT clock used regardless of input chosen. Section 4.2 simply states one can sync or use DDC I2S clock OR use dac internal clock using async. Important point is local clock is in FACT a I2S clock, it is the native pathway in every dac, this just a matter of semantics. 

And these are NOT unique features of udac and Harmony. Many dacs with I2S input and DDC offer sync or async options, as well as configurable pin. 

Keep it simple!  I like that answer as long as it is effective.  Any suggestion?  DH Labs or other vendors that won't break my bank?

Nope. Keep it simple. Just the highest quality cable you can get. 

It is good idea to try a good ethernet cable.  Thx.  Do I also need a good switch box and / or ethernet-optical-ethernet converter there, @audphile1, you think?

By the way both DDC and dac use I2S clock, I2S is native pathway in every dac...

No.  Don’t assume that.  Go back to read your Harmony manual again regarding I2s Clock (Sec. 4.2).  It clearly says "This feature enables you to select between the local DAC clock or the I2S clock when utilizing the I2S input."  The ’local DAC clock’ option is manifest by itself.  If you opt for ’I2S clock’, the DAC will be slaved to DDC’s clock and use the I2S clock unless the I2S clock becomes unstable or incompatible. 

This is an unique feature offered by Harmony DAC and µDAC. 

Sync means using Gaia clock. By the way both DDC and dac use I2S clock, I2S is native pathway in every dac, you're bypassing dac I2S clock when syncing or using DDC or streamer with I2S interface. Perhaps some have used inferior DDC if found to be lacking vs other interface, I don't see much sense in using I2S if I2S clock implementation in dac superior or equal to DDC/streamer clock.

You do not need a DDC. To improve your system further when the Volumio arrives and goes thru full break in, try a good Ethernet cable. 

I’m fine with returning the U18, but I’m fully satisfied with the Harmony Micro DAC and the Rivo Plus/LPS I’m considering. If I ever need a DDC again, I’ll just get a better unit like the SU-6 or the Micro DDC. I’m not sure the folks making that statement have ever actually auditioned these units. I know exactly where the point of diminishing returns is for my system.

@audphile1 word

Return the DDC. It’s garbage.
Save the money and get a better dac and better streamer.

Ya return the ddc