Do equipment stands have an impact on electronics?
Mechanical grounding or isolation from vibration has been a hot topic as of late. Many know from experience that footers, stands and other vibration technologies impact things that vibrate a lot like speakers, subs or even listening rooms (my recent experience with an "Energy room"). The question is does it have merit when it comes to electronics and if so why? Are there plausible explanations for their effect on electronics or suggested measurement paradigms to document such an effect?
Well Gk is right about that. It’s not about him at all.
I’ll re-iterate my 2 cents from earlier FWIW and kindly bow out adding only that stands are part of the solution but alone may in fact accomplish something, little or nothing.
"Its clear vibrations can have an effect on electronics. Keep increasing the magnitude of vibrations and eventually the effects will become clear.
What’s relevant though is do they actually have an effect that is audible and matters?
The correct answer of course is maybe. The greater the magnitude of vibrations at various frequencies and the more delicate the electronics the more the chance.
The practical approach I apply is to do everything possible to provide a solid foundation for gear to sit on. Speakers especially. Those will likely be the main source of any destructive vibrations in most good quality home systems. Approaches needed to accomplish that will vary case by case. How a house is constructed and where the system is located in it are major factors to consider.
Also worth noting that turntables are essentially mechanical transducers and are especially susceptible to ill effects of vibrations from speakers or elsewhere.
I’ve posted on this topic on various other threads available here on the record if anyone is interested. "
dlcockrum 403 posts 11-01-2016 9:08am Hi geoffkait,
I recognize those traits so well in myself. Like looking in a mirror when I don’t spend any time seeking God.
I have a sign in my listening room, "BE SURE TO TASTE YOUR WORDS BEFORE YOU SPIT THEM OUT". I make sure to stop and read it each and every morning.
Best to you Geoff, really, Dave
You know Dave, this thread is not about me. It’s about how stands affect the electronics. Hel-loo! Even reformed trolls should address the topic at some point, no? We already have enough wannbe moderators here.
DSM-5 criteria for narcissistic personality disorder include these features:
Having an exaggerated sense of self-importance Expecting to be recognized as superior even without achievements that warrant it Exaggerating your achievements and talents Being preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate Believing that you are superior and can only be understood by or associate with equally special people Requiring constant admiration Having a sense of entitlement Expecting special favors and unquestioning compliance with your expectations Taking advantage of others to get what you want Having an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others Being envious of others and believing others envy you Behaving in an arrogant or haughty manner
Ah, now I see what you mean! Yes, that does describe you. Actually I’d add that you are not a quick study, which might explain why it took you seven years to get out of UVa.
"Gk just hit the report button if you have an issue just like everyone else."
I bet bet you hit the report button a lot, Moopman. Never saw anyone complain so much.
then Mapman wrote,
"You personally attack people who challenge your nonsense all the time. From there its an eye for an eye, bucko."
Bucko? What are you, still living in the 70s? I don’t personally attack anyone. I attack their ideas. Like your outdated and mildly retarded ideas. Eye for an eye? Huh?! Try to resist all the biblical drama! Save the drama for yo mama!
then Mapman wrote,
"Change your approach and your post count that you so covet will go up much faster. Maybe you will even catch me someday."
Are you listening to yourself? Stop trying to be the moderator. You’re not the boss of me. Go admire your rock collection and above all get a life!
agear OP 1,215 posts 10-31-2016 4:32pm mapman 13,847 posts 10-31-2016 3:18pm Agear, critical thinking requires work and effort and a certain degree of humility even. keep on dreaming!
Good comeback! Brutal! :-) Map-o-Rama! That was directed at you Einstein.
No shirt, Sherlock.
BTW, the snippet from the DSMR was pretty accurate. What say ye?
randy-11 169 posts 10-31-2016 3:46pm Please! The comparison to a dull undergraduate with an attention deficit is unfair to all dull undergraduates with an attention deficits.
Move it down to Jr. high schoolers with behavior problems.
The name calling remark from Mr. Troll is priceless!
Ah, the pinhead checks in. Where ya been keeping yourself, Zippy?
agear OP 1,214 posts 10-31-2016 3:06pm Klipsch suck. And more to the point they’re not even isolated. What kind of low rent MidFi establishment is that dude running? You missed the point of the article (which is not surprising since your critical thinking skills are those of a dull undergraduate with an attention deficit). For the record, Klipsch speakers properly modified and with the right equipment can sound very good. They are not quite up to the level of your morphic resonanator Walkman but they can be a lot of fun.
If you say so. I guess that's why you're mr. golden ears. Can't post without name calling, can you? Amateurs.
Klipsch suck. And more to the point they’re not even isolated. What kind of low rent MidFi establishment is that dude running?
You missed the point of the article (which is not surprising since your critical thinking skills are those of a dull undergraduate with an attention deficit). For the record, Klipsch speakers properly modified and with the right equipment can sound very good. They are not quite up to the level of your morphic resonanator Walkman but they can be a lot of fun.
mapman 13,845 posts 10-31-2016 2:38pm Well there is a report this post function here that can always be used. Posts abusive to others generally get DELETED! its the only effective tool at ones disposal really.
Not sure all trash talk qualifies but one can always try. It should be every responsible users job to help keep the site clean and trash free. If everyone does, maybe things improve.
However nothing explicit there to reliably report fiction versus fact or blatant misinformation. Internet is quite susceptible there.
Trust but verify is probably always a good idea. If you can’t verify, don’t trust.
Hey! Whoa! Mapman, are you listening to yourself? You really don’t get the Internet, do you? What’s next, shall I go back and cut and paste all of your blatant personal attacks? Stop trying to pretend to be Mr. Morality. I see thru you like you were made of glass.
Trust and verify? What are you, the nuclear non-proliferation committee?
Well there is a report this post function here that can always be used. Posts abusive to others generally get DELETED! its the only effective tool at ones disposal really.
Not sure all trash talk qualifies but one can always try. It should be every responsible users job to help keep the site clean and trash free. If everyone does, maybe things improve.
However nothing explicit there to reliably report fiction versus fact or blatant misinformation. Internet is quite susceptible there.
Trust but verify is probably always a good idea. If you can’t verify, don’t trust.
Just follow the golden rule and things will be fine. Internet changes nothing there.
The golden rule here is talk trash unto others as they would talk trash to you.
It actually works both way due perhaps to the rather poor education system, I.e., a lot of facts are misinterpreted as fiction. Other countries are probably more open minded and better educated; has anyone seen the tests scores these days? Geez! In the US the education hierarchy appears to be BS, More BS and finally Piled Higher and Deeper.
Yes, we are the bottom of the barrel among developed countries. Still, the internet is a lazy man's research tool. No sweat. No going to the stacks. No discipline. Just imaginary knowledge. Finland and parts of Asia are top of the barrel due to rigorous (and often rote) teaching. BUT, we still lead the world in terms of creative and free thinking, Nobel prizes, patents and innovation. Others can only steal, copy or try to regulate our ideas.
agear OP 1,211 posts 10-31-2016 9:56am The internet was created as a research/communication tool. Unfortunately, a lot of what passes for facts is itself poorly researched but people are lazy and misinterpret fiction for facts.
It actually works both way due perhaps to the rather poor education system, I.e., a lot of facts are misinterpreted as fiction. Other countries are probably more open minded and better educated; has anyone seen the tests scores these days? Geez! In the US the education hierarchy appears to be BS, More BS and finally Piled Higher and Deeper.
The internet was created as a research/communication tool. Unfortunately, a lot of what passes for facts is itself poorly researched but people are lazy and misinterpret fiction for facts.
Why can’t the Internet be used as intended - a convenient and effective means for the exchange of ideas for people who wish to learn about the fascinating hobby of audio? A sharing of ideas Mano a Mano, whatever.
I agree. AS has gotten edgier and more clique-like as of late. I have noticed an ubiquitous online trend towards angry trolling. Life is more toxic than ever and people are stressed. What better catharsis than trolling?
I was telling a non-audiophile friend of mine just the other day what a good bunch of people there are in the audio world, particularly on Audiogon. I still believe this. Perhaps our shared passion for a hobby that I find paramount to golf in its illusiveness (Bagger Vance: "A game that can’t be won only played") is making us lose perspective?
I have dealt my share of hurtful jabs recently, but thanks to the kind admonishment by charles1dad and the pristine example set by Almarg, I have seen the folly of my snide behavior and regret my thankfully short-lived yet self-serving war on others of contrary audio ilk. Please accept my apology.
Can we all move just a bit in that direction please?
Sincerely and with earnest intention, Dave
Dave, thanks for chiming in. This rough and tumble thread is for a--holes only with Mr. Kait and myself leading the charge! This is definitely not a thread for PC weenies.
In all seriousness, my dialogue with Mr. Kait is in jest only (and my weak attempt at an impersonation of him....)
The Seismologist's input will be educational and a good springboard for real discussion now that we have gotten all the trash talking out of our systems.
Firstly, let me say I eat seismologists for breakfast. All this idle talk about seismologists is making me hungry.
Well, well, what do we have here? I will give everyone a hint with a snippet from the good old DSMR:
DSM-5 criteria for narcissistic personality disorder include these features:
Having an exaggerated sense of self-importance Expecting to be recognized as superior even without achievements that warrant it Exaggerating your achievements and talents Being preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate Believing that you are superior and can only be understood by or associate with equally special people Requiring constant admiration Having a sense of entitlement Expecting special favors and unquestioning compliance with your expectations Taking advantage of others to get what you want Having an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others Being envious of others and believing others envy you Behaving in an arrogant or haughty manner
I thought Virginia is for lovers. Don’t be a hater, be a lover. Shame about UVa. It used to an elite institution when I went there but it looks like creeping state U-ism must’ve taken hold.
It is a shame. Don't get me started. UVa has never enjoyed proper financial support from the state. It should really, truly be a private entity.
agear OP 1,204 posts 10-30-2016 2:42pm Geoffkait: It’s always nice to engage someone who keeps coming back with these really good examples of illogical arguments AND attitude. LOL what’s funny is you are blissfully unaware of what you are even arguing against, I.e., Morphic resonance. Hel-loo!
to which agear responded,
"Do you realize these are simply conversations with yourself? Your lack of self-insight staggers me. Furthermore, you are simply too scatty intellectually to maintain a focused argument. No wonder you maxed out at the undergrad level. All you are able to do is scat with half-baked Barnes and Nobles level scientific knowledge. I would buy tickets to the Geoff Kait thesis defense. Morphic resonance in audio.....lol. But at the end of the day, I find you highly entertaining. Carry on.
The Seismology report is apparently forthcoming. That should provide some grist of the mill...."
.....................
Firstly, let me say I eat seismologists for breakfast. All this idle talk about seismologists is making me hungry.
I thought Virginia is for lovers. Don’t be a hater, be a lover. Shame about UVa. It used to an elite institution when I went there but it looks like creeping state U-ism must’ve taken hold.
Think of me as from the future, in your case far in the future.
An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. - Old audiophile axiom
t’s always nice to engage someone who keeps coming back with these really good examples of illogical arguments AND attitude. LOL what’s funny is you are blissfully unaware of what you are even arguing against, I.e., Morphic resonance. Hel-loo!
Do you realize these are simply conversations with yourself? Your lack of self-insight staggers me. Furthermore, you are simply too scatty intellectually to maintain a focused argument. No wonder you maxed out at the undergrad level. All you are able to do is scat with half-baked Barnes and Nobles level scientific knowledge. I would buy tickets to the Geoff Kait thesis defense. Morphic resonance in audio.....lol. But at the end of the day, I find you highly entertaining. Carry on.
The Seismology report is apparently forthcoming. That should provide some grist of the mill....
agear OP 1,202 posts 10-29-2016 6:38pm Actually The Presence of the Past is filled with logically laid out evidence of Morphic resonance. Such as? Speculative Biology is fun reading much like the Tao of Physics and other quantum pablum. Much of it has the same intellectual merit as science fiction. There is some merit in it but not enough to build a company around.
Saying there is no evidence is actually a typical undergraduate mistake in logic, you know, since you have not even looked at the evidence.
Btw I have more semester hours than you do and more difficult course material. No you don’t. I have 19 yrs of formal education and training. You have 4.
So you can drop the pretense that you’re some some of Master debater. No pretense needed.
I did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday. Based on the construction of both your arguments and garbled mentation, one has to wonder.
Just because your Pop is a PhD in the SAME FIELD doesn’t mean Morphic resonance is NOT REAL. That’s a, you know, fallacious argument. That wasn’t the argument Einstein. Hel-looo?
Same with using your biology background an Dumpty ump years in school. Strictly a fallacious argument. Follow?
No, I don’t follow.
I think we need an addendum aphorism to Einstein’s quip about education being what’s left. How about this:
Knowledge is what remains after time has robbed the mind of facts. The mind then attempts to fill in the blanks through a process called confabulation which to the impassive observer appears like magical thinking. Enter the neoshamans Sheldrake and Chopra.....
With addresses each one of your comments specifically I think it’s a safe to say your arguments are actually just more mistakes in logic. Appeals to authority, illogical association with Chopra, illogical appeal to number of years of study,meta. Gee whiz, agear if time on the job was a real measure of anything all audiophiles with 30 years of experience would be geniuses and have really great sound. Of course that’s not true. It appears to me you are simply a victim of the Backfire Effect, the more contradictory evidence that’s presented the more the person clings to his beliefs. One imagines you will argue this subject until you’re blue in the face, which in think is probably already blue. One also imagines they don’t teach real open mindedness in the College. They do in the E school. It's not how long you studied or trained, it's the quality of that study and training.
It’s always nice to engage someone who keeps coming back with these really good examples of illogical arguments AND attitude. LOL what’s funny is you are blissfully unaware of what you are even arguing against, I.e., Morphic resonance. Hel-loo!
from intro to Zen and Art of Debunkery:
As the millennium turns, science seems in many ways to be treading the weary path of the religions it presumed to replace. Where free, dispassionate inquiry once reigned, emotions now run high in the defense of a fundamentalized "scientific truth." As anomalies mount up beneath a sea of denial, defenders of the Faith and the Kingdom cling with increasing self-righteousness to the hull of a sinking paradigm. Faced with provocative evidence of things undreamt of in their philosophy, many otherwise mature scientists revert to a kind of skeptical infantilism characterized by blind faith in the absoluteness of the familiar. Small wonder, then, that so many promising fields of inquiry remain shrouded in superstition, ignorance, denial, disinformation, taboo . . . and debunkery.
• Put on the right face. Cultivate a condescending air certifying that your personal opinions are backed by the full faith and credit of God. Adopting a disdainful, upper-class manner is optional but highly recommended.
• Employ vague, subjective, dismissive terms such as "ridiculous," "trivial," "crackpot," or "bunk," in a manner that purports to carry the full force of scientific authority.
• Keep your arguments as abstract and theoretical as possible. This will send the message that accepted theory overrides any actual evidence that might challenge it -- and that therefore no such evidence is worth examining.
• By every indirect means at your disposal imply that science is powerless to police itself against fraud and misperception, and that only self-appointed vigilantism can save it from itself.
"My belief is certain things remain holy. Anyone can look up what those things are and decide to take them to heart or not."
Gee whiz, Mapman, I’m not going to get struck by lightning, am I? I’ve always wondered Why is it that many controversial audio discussions degenerate into some sort of religious holy war? Let the inquisition begin! You can be the guy in the red hood. Lol
Its clear vibrations can have an effect on electronics. Keep increasing the magnitude of vibrations and eventually the effects will become clear.
What’s relevant though is do they actually have an effect that is audible and matters?
The correct answer of course is maybe. The greater the magnitude of vibrations at various frequencies and the more delicate the electronics the more the chance.
The practical approach I apply is to do everything possible to provide a solid foundation for gear to sit on. Speakers especially. Those will likely be the main source of any destructive vibrations in most good quality home systems. Approaches needed to accomplish that will vary case by case. How a house is constructed and where the system is located in it are major factors to consider.
Also worth noting that turntables are essentially mechanical transducers and are especially susceptible to ill effects of vibrations from speakers or elsewhere.
I've posted on this topic on various other threads available here on the record if anyone is interested.
Look gk and anyone for that matter are free to post whatever they want. These events Are documented. It’s when someone becomes insulting and condescending towards others I start to have a problem. Need not be towards me. Posting on websites is not a free ticket for bad manners and taste. Well actually it is but people should think twice before posting things that cast a bad light on themselves or others.
Just how I look at it. It’s a free country. Being rude and insulting is not against the law.
Gk thinks he is impervious to reality. For his sake I hope he is right.
My belief is certain things remain holy. Anyone can look up what those things are and decide to take them to heart or not.
Actually The Presence of the Past is filled with logically laid out evidence of Morphic resonance.
Such as? Speculative Biology is fun reading much like the Tao of Physics and other quantum pablum. Much of it has the same intellectual merit as science fiction. There is some merit in it but not enough to build a company around.
Saying there is no evidence is actually a typical undergraduate mistake in logic, you know, since you have not even looked at the evidence.
Just because your Pop is a PhD in the SAME FIELD doesn't mean Morphic resonance is NOT REAL. That's a, you know, fallacious argument.
That wasn't the argument Einstein. Hel-looo?
Same with using your biology background an Dumpty ump years in school. Strictly a fallacious argument. Follow?
No, I don't follow.
I think we need an addendum aphorism to Einstein's quip about education being what's left. How about this:
Knowledge is what remains after time has robbed the mind of facts. The mind then attempts to fill in the blanks through a process called confabulation which to the impassive observer appears like magical thinking. Enter the neoshamans Sheldrake and Chopra.....
mapman 13,836 posts 10-29-2016 4:20pm Keep rambling Kimosabe. Maybe there is someout there who cares about your meaningless blather and useless products.
So sayeth the geologist. Now I see why you keep trying to pass yourself off as an engineer. I wouldn’t want to call myself a geologist, either. By the way, that was almost a compete sentence you wrote, Commander. Can I suggest you anesthetize yourself with liquor if it will make you feel better? I understand how angry and wrapped around the axel you get. :-)
"Sheldrake is a debunked non-scientist. Don’t confuse science with ’intellectualism" -- it shows you do not understand science at all.
In reality Sheldrake is rather successful, my pointy headed friend. To whit,
Rupert Sheldrake is a biologist and author of more than 80 scientific papers and ten books. He was among the top 100 Global Thought Leaders for 2013, as ranked by the Duttweiler Institute, Zurich, Switzerland’s leading think tank. He studied natural sciences at Cambridge University, where he was a Scholar of Clare College, took a double first class honours degree and was awarded the University Botany Prize (1963). He then studied philosophy and history of science at Harvard University, where he was a Frank Knox Fellow (1963-64), before returning to Cambridge, where he took a Ph.D. in biochemistry (1967). He was a Fellow of Clare College, Cambridge (1967-73), where he was Director of Studies in biochemistry and cell biology. As the Rosenheim Research Fellow of the Royal Society (1970-73), he carried out research on the development of plants and the ageing of cells in the Department of Biochemistry at Cambridge University. While at Cambridge, together with Philip Rubery, he discovered the mechanism of polar auxin transport, the process by which the plant hormone auxin is carried from the shoots towards the roots.
In his most recent book (2012), called The Science Delusion in the UK and Science Set Free in the US, he examines the ten dogmas of modern science, and shows how they can be turned into questions that open up new vistas of scientific possibility. This book received the Book of the Year Award from the British Scientific and Medical Network.
In 2000, he was the Steinbach Scholar in Residence at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute in Cape Cod, Massachusetts. From 2005-2010 he was the Director of the Perrott-Warrick Project, funded from Trinity College, Cambridge University. He is also a Fellow of the Institute of Noetic Sciences in California, a Visiting Professor at the Graduate Institute in Connecticut, a Fellow of Schumacher College in Devon, England, and a Fellow of the Temenos Academy, London.
He received the 2014 Bridgebuilder Award at Loyola Marymount University, Los Angeles, a prize established by the Doshi family "to honor an individual or organization dedicated to fostering understanding between cultures, peoples and disciplines." In 2015, in Venice, Italy, he was awarded the first Lucia Torri Cianci prize for innovative thinking.
Randy-11 also wrote,
"The same applies to the spurious notion that morphic woo-woo has to be proven wrong. One always has to show experimental evidence for something before it will get any acceptance in science."
There has been experimental evidence of Morphic resonance. You’re just a little too uh, uninformed to know where to find it. I also stated careful testing of my Morphic resonance based products prove Morphic resonance is not only REAL but is the OPERATING MECHANISM for how those products WORK. Products such as the Teleportation Tweak, Morphic Message Labels, Quantum Temple Bell, the Ultra Signature Version of the Clever Little Clock, Blue Meanies and Green Meanies. Hel-loo!
Sheldrake is a debunked non-scientist. Don't confuse science with 'intellectualism" -- it shows you do not understand science at all.
The same applies to the spurious notion that morphic woo-woo has to be proven wrong. One always has to show experimental evidence for something before it will get any acceptance in science.
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