I thought that I had walked into a top secret NASA manufacturing facility, with workers walking around in space suits. It reminded me of a scene out of a James Bond movie, in which people were manufacturing something that could potentially take over the world.
He hadn't even heard the speakers yet. We are talking about speakers, yes? In a one page commentary without testing involved, I'm not so sure. Every few weeks, someone has to come along and raise the DK product alert level to orange. Notice how rarely we're actually talking about the products themselves. Something's working, obviously.
Marco, I'm not sure I understand your point. If it's that capitalism simply works this way, I have a hard time believing that you'd put the credence you currently do into a guy like Mike Sanders (Quicksilver) if he was paying to have someone come audition his products. It would necessarily subjugate his products to a role secondary to the image they must become in order to sell them. Fair enough, but then what are you paying for? Maybe I misunderstood your sarcasm. I apologize if I did.
I agree with Larry, let's give DK a chance. But first, I think DK needs to give itself a chance. An amplifier that was released as "better than $20 separates"--a claim made by a dealer whose address belonged to a school in Nevada-- and speakers that are apparently set to "take over the world" hardly allow the audiophile public to approach a level of intimacy with the product itself. Perhaps that is the plan. Only they can say.
Thanks TVAD, All anyone ever wants is a reasonable chance. Having worked in the industry, I realize what an awesome responsibility it is to make good products then stand behind them correctly. We want first quality products, and good customer relations. That will take us a long way toward some modicum of success. The most interesting aspect for me is the unveiling of our new LSA's which I mentioned several months ago--it has taken all this time for me to finish them. This is not an easy business, and one should only be involved with it if it's your passion--but you must remember to treat it like a business. I will bow out now as I have months of work to do in just days. Thanks again TVAD& Howard.
Howard - you should know better than to try to make sense out of my posts. I was just bouncing off of the "three-ringed circus" theme established long ago by betterthencrack (or rather the respondants of BTC), and mentioned again here. Your post just gave me more fodder for the concept. Truly, per all my posts to these ridiculous DK threads, I've always respected Daniel's marketting savvy. As far as the actual products, I have no experience to speak of and no comments as far as performance or comparison. I'd certainly look forward to taking a listen some day. Congratulations to Larry and the LSA Group as what looks to me to be a good investment.
As far as my synical comments about "capitalism", hey, I'm under no illusions...we're all in the game, whether cogs in the wheel, or close to the hub.
Not where I'd invest my hard earned money! Break even hobby, perhaps. But then I guess we don't know the financial arrangements between Larsky and Daniel do we. Could have been a fire sale.
I find it funny that some many people trash reviewers, the review process and specific reviews as being worthless paid for advertising when the earlier DK amp rollout showed how many of you are wannabe reviewers. While the Positive Feedback piece reads more like a press release than some other product reviews, fundamentally it really is no different than other reviews. Whether the equipment is heard in the reviewer's home, at an audio show or at the factory site, the manufacturer foots the bill. There's no more pressure on this reviewer than any other reviewer.
I think my head is actually in the spokes of the capitalist wheel, Marco. Thanks for the clarification, and I'll not try and make sense of your posts any longer, at least not with the use of my limited faculties!
I'll not try and make sense of your posts any longer
I think you'll actually find instructions to do so in the A'gon Forum FAQ. Right after the instructions to pay no heed to posts started by 'betterthencrack' raving about DK components. I think you better check your FAQ's dude!
unbelievable! and i thought there was an age limit before you can create a response to a thread. reading a couple of the responses above, i guess the manufacturers didn't get the email that stated they were foolish to create speaker systems so expensive, like the wilson watt puppy's and maxx, sonus faber stradavarius, krell lat, martin logan, rockports, and many others. people might go broke because they have to sell all of their belongings to buy these speakers. a lot of kids will not be attending college because their parents invested their savings into a pair of speakers. how many times do we read reviews from stereophile and others that claim the piece of equipment they are currently listening to is the best they ever heard? more times than stating the piece is a piece of junk. $25k is a whole lot cheaper than many other speaker systems out there. does it sound better than the others? don't know. but i really don't care either. as for people bashing a speaker system that might not work with a 2 watt amp, 99% of the speakers made would not work with a 2 watt amp, so what does that mean? i guess i better sell my $4k speakers because they don't work with 2 watt amps, not even 125 watt amps.
The X Dream is a unique product that, given it's price, will interest less than 2% of the respondants on the page, if they fit within the normal demographics, so that may be worth some thought
Is this what you were referring to, Rbstehno? I missed the part about a 2 watt amp. I can't imagine someone dismissing a speaker because it won't mate up with a 2 watt amp. As you say, most don't.
Um, most of my post above was meant to be a tongue-in-cheek, lighthearted poke at the reviewer and PF for having posted the X-Dream piece as a review when it would probably have been in the Features or Factory Tour section of other review publications. A lot of reviews I've read at least take place in the home or offices of a reviewer/publication, where they take the time to mate the component being reviewed with at least a couple of different pieces of associated equipment (like trying speakers with a couple different amps or preamps).
The reviewer didn't even bother to counterbalance his statement that the X-Dream's are the best he's ever heard and probably ever will, by restating the rather limited context of the review or stating, as many other reviewers do, something to the effect that his findings are based on "... this system, in this room". I think others have already clearly stated that the review appears to be more a piece of promotional literature than anything else.
Given that we don't even know the impedance, sensitivity, etc. of the speakers in question, can anyone be certain that 125 Watts would not be sufficent to drive the X-Dreams or are others, like me, just sharing some opinions and trying to learn and have some fun, as is the habit here in the 'Gon forums? Surely I'm not the only one to have ever questioned the motives or opnions of a reviewer when an article reads more like a marketing device than an un-biased, impartial review.
In addition, it appears that at least a couple of those posting in this thread have had a change of heart in their opinion of the matter, not that there's anything wrong with that, after the new owner of DK entered the fray. There'a a saying in French that my spouse likes to use from time to time, "seulement les fous ne changent pas d'idee", which roughly translates to "only people who are mad (as in mentally ill) never change their mind".
Although I haven't changed my mind since my first post (perhaps that makes me mad), I offer my apologies if I've offended anyone's sensibilities. :-)
I said I was bailing out, but I feel that it's worthwhile to explain to Boa2. The 2% figure was purely financial. Let's be real, not many people, even the audio enthusiasts on Audiogon are in a position to pay $25K for loudspeakers. It had nothing to do with the speakers ability to work with 2 Watt Amps. Not many will... The speakers are a benign load, and about 90 db1W1m. for general information. So really, depending on taste, perhaps a small, though not 2 watt amp could work. Best, Larry R. Staples President DK Design/LSA Group
unbelievable too...i thought that there was an intelligence limit before posting threads here and obviously the people eho think we are all just out to get DK should realize that it is not the product so much as the marketing tactics that we are calling attention to.
but i really don't care either. as for people bashing a speaker system that might not work with a 2 watt amp, 99% of the speakers made would not work with a 2 watt amp, so what does that mean?
Larry, this was Rbstehno's comment, and I could not find a reference for it. Either I missed the bashing he was talking about, or I guessed that somehow it was misconstrued, beginning with your reference to 2% (NOT to 2 watts). Your comment was crystal clear on the first go-round. Regards, Howard
Guys, I wasn't bashing the speakers. I just feel that the reviewer, IMHO, did not really perform due diligence on behalf of the readers of PF. I simply posited a rhetorical question, given the lack of any comparisons with other gear, about whether the speakers could be driven and produce satisfying music with something other than the equipment employed for the review, whether a 2 Wpc tube amp or 125 Wpc ss amp, or anything else for that matter.
Thanks for pointing out the comment, Mghcanuck. I missed it entirely. It doesn't appear to me that you are bashing anything. You are simply asking for an honest review, with specifics to back up the hyperbole. A fair demand, I would certainly think. For this audio product, or any.
Thank you all, so much for the support. Having worked as a dealer for 12 years, then as Director of Sales for THIEL Audio, then President Emeritus, (meaning an unpaid consulting position) for Von Schweikert Audio, I have a good background. Audio is a hard business, and the customers are very demanding, as they should be for the prices we ask. That damn F 7 costs us a fortune to construct, given the complexity of the CNC work. It is a new generation of product, bypassing the typical MDF (medium density fiberboard construct) and utilizing an aluminum outer body, which costs us more than most speakers cost to make, just in labor for the aluminum. They are as good as advertised, and underpriced, as it relates to retail versus cost to make. We wanted to make a statement. Everyone, including Wilson is using MDF, and why not, is that mdf is cheap. This is a new wave of product that will take us to the next step in design. We need to think of how to make construct cheaper, so we can all enjoy the benefits of the improvements that plate aluminum can make in the cabinet. Hey we're audio groupies too, and want better sound just like all of you. The whole problem is 'how'to do it so we can all benefit. Please support our hard work and know that experienced audio people are working hard to make products that are better, as well as, cheaper. If you doubt that just look at our square wave output on the Austrailian Hifi magazine. Our Square wave is really perfect at the 1Khz output. Not even the vaunted Halcro can do this, at multiples of this price. All things being equal, measurements are one important key. Best, Your Audio Friend, Larry R. Staples President DK/LSA Group
Best of luck to you Larry, I probably will never be able to afford such a product but I have come to respect your venture and your information provided. I hope that your dream of making the best affordable to the masses will one day be realized, as I will always be just part of the "mass" I wish you the best returns on your investment and passion!
To all the well wishers, TVAD, Trelja, (thanks for the discs) Chadnliz, Boa2, and any I may have missed, THANK YOU. We really will work to gain your respect. Sometimes marketing goes over a line of reality--and given that these are our 'babies' so to speak we, may even do that. Just remember, that we are one of you, trying to service you and put wonderful music and enjoyment in your homes. We offer 30 day full refund on all products, (well, probably not the F7, since we're back ordered) and it may not get much better than that. We support our dealer base, and if we sell direct, we will reimburse the local dealer (if there is one) with the profit dollars they would have gotten had they sold to you. These Brick and mortar guys are going to work, just like all of you, working, hopefully to earn your business. I would like comments from any and all of you about GREAT potential dealers. If you like them let me know, and we'll try to put them on for you. As to the Bay Area, if you want a serious demo, I will have them taken to your nearest dealer, whoever that is, if they'll allow it-- these F7's take almost 3 months to carve out of aluminum, with weighted CNC machines--so back orders 'is us' in perpituity, until I can maybe talk a great company with several really good CNC operators into helping us. (Jim Thiel of THIEL Audio my former employer comes to mind.) Who better than Jim, to do good cabinet work??? We all know they are one of the best--and if they can keep their staff busy and making money, even though we're competitors, why not? You really have to hear these things to believe it, and even though $25K is a chunk, our margin is razor thin on this speaker because of the labor involved. Anyway, thanks again, and write me with suggestions, @ my email, or call me personally at my private, number 502 671 7988 any time. Best, Larry
Larry, I doubt you can back up this claim. After all, Wilson uses their proprietary materials such as X material in their speakers. And "everyone" would include others such as Wilson Benesch (impregnated carbon fiber), Kharma (composite), and Lumenwhite (maple plywood), and there are numerous others. I suggest there is more than one way to achieve excellent results as doing a little homework before making sweeping statements would indicate.
Sorry, Virtually everyone--I am swamped, and didn't complete the thought. The industry in general uses MDF, (even I use them in my own line which I developed prior to this purchase.) Sorry for the miscommunication. At THIEL the front of the cabinets for the CS 6 was a mineral filled polymer, which was fairly exotic, so why I would blanket statement, is a tribute to too much happening at one time. I am not aware though of anyone using our product, in the manner we are. That is probably what should have been said.
Best, and thanks for the correction. Larry R. Staples
I don't see why some are complaining about the price or who made it. Krell never had a speaker until the LAT-1 and they had good reviews. Magico has a similar AI speaker for 40k. Compared to the Sonus Faber Strad, top Kharma, Rockport, Wisdom and Wilson's, it is a bargain.
Lrsky...Seriously, if it really takes three months to machine your chunk of aluminum you are not doing it right. Although you may not see a need to lower the price of your product, think of what it would do for your profit margin if you could crank out several per day!
Three months was the requirement to set all the files for the CNC Machine, obviously we won't be looking at that time for future pairs, otherwise why do it? Any CNC companies out there looking to bid this project should email me. Thanks, Larry R Staples
Lrsky...OK, that makes sense. Previous comments suggested that cutting the metal for each speaker took 3 months, which, to anyone familiar with CNC, was obviously wrong. Thanks for clearing it up.
If you doubt that just look at our square wave output on the Austrailian Hifi magazine. Our Square wave is really perfect at the 1Khz output. Not even the vaunted Halcro can do this, at multiples of this price.
Larry - Measurements speak only a small part of the equation, as you alluded to. In the real world, synergy and subjective tastes are far stronger a deciding factor (IMO). But I was more curious (and forgive me if you've already responded to this question): Since the company is so proud of their giant-slaying amplifiers, and having just come out with a new and improved version, why did you choose to demonstrate your speakers with a BAT/Pass Labs system instead of your own amplification? That seems like an odd choice, especially from a marketing standpoint.
I just want to hear them (well I wouldn't turn them down if someone offered me a pair :) Hopefully they will be at CES '06? Also does DK Design have any plans to do a full blown HT system based on the X-Dream F7? How about a killer subwoofer?
"The wide-bandwidth two stage signal path allows the output stage to deliver incredible musical realism and provides high amounts of both continuous and short terms power, allowing even the most demanding speaker loads to achieve their maximum dynamic potential and reproduce deep bass notes with room shacking authority. However, even very efficient speakers will benefit from large amounts of clean power."
this is just the vs1MKII not the MKIII or even the Signature version
I think that Marco posed a very fair question.
now my question is...will the deep base notes be shaking my room or shacking my room...and will i notice the difference?
Maybe the new speakers need more power than the DK amp. Seems reasonable.
The DK is 150wpc into 8ohms. The Pass Labs is 350wpc into 8 ohms. That's about a 4-5db difference in headroom. I guess if the speakers are difficult to drive that may make some difference. Good point.
I just wanted to quickly drop in and provide a brief explanation on the choice of equipment used for the X-Dream review. Even though I am no longer involved with DK Design Group, the company has a very strong sentimental value to me and I would be delighted to see the company continue its breathtaking growth under the direction of LSA Group.
I feel that if instead of using a mix of well known high-end audio gear we had used the VS-1 Reference integrated amplifier that this would only raise even more questions about the credibility of the review. First of all, I believe that many serious music lovers and audio enthusiasts do not necessarily consider a $3,000 integrated amplifier as a serious high-end contender and many more would say that a $3,000 integrated amplifier is not sufficient to drive $25,000/pr loudspeakers. This is exactly the attitude that we have tried to dispel in the audio community and we encourage customers to compare the VS-1 Reference with top flight separates - I can tell you from personal evaluation that the VS-1 Reference would make a remarkable sonic match with the X-Dreams and power certainly would not be a limitation. The VS-1 Reference is only conservatively rated at 150W per channel; it can put out a continuous 800W into a 1.3 ohm load without clipping making it an ideal match for even the most demanding loudspeakers.
In addition, we felt that it was important to keep the review focused on the loudspeakers rather then the combo with the VS-1 Reference. There will be more reviews coming from other audio publications so readers can get an idea on how the speakers perform with a wide range of audio equipment.
Think of the implications, Mr. Staples. Your oversight could have spelled doom for millions of animals had the participants shown up instead at the 3H club. And just how many people would have starved to death while looking for their next meal at the APPY UNTER? You may as well give up your efforts to build the world's finest speakers, having just destroyed the lives of ilary Swank, Clinton, and Sir Edmund imself.
Spellcheck, Larry. C'mon, the software is free, my friend. In this business, it's the little things that will urt you in the end.
Guidocorona and Boa2: come on....Geez, give Staples a break. There's no spellcheck in this forum. Everybody makes typographical errors when they start a thread or post a response, especially when a person is speed-typing to try to crank out a message because they're busy. This guy is obviously under time contstraints as he heads up a new business. He made a simple typo. So what!! Why even waste your time or anyone else's to take such cheap shots in an effort to have fun. The nerve and arrogance of some audiophiles is unbelievable. Any mistakes in his post should not be construed as a reflection on the quality of his company, period.
Ok, my previous post went right over the edge and its tone was unwarranted. I have requested Agon staff to nuke it. Having fun of Trills, thrills and frills is fine, but the rest was unbecoming. But let's all use spell-chuckers folks, or our spillings will go on right to the dogs! (or is it to the ducks?)
Somebody really needs to learn the difference between "then" and "than". At least they included the "h" in "shill".
ItalianBiira- where the heck did you come from with your pretty birds and business advice? That's a valuable lesson you taught through your birdies. You cut straigt troug all da' bullsit right to da' eart of the matter!: As I do anything is as I do everything. Oooh, that wouldn't make anyone take me very seriously. Strike that. As I do anything, except those things where I deliberately deviate from the norm as I've established elsewhere in more serious matters, is as I do everything. Yeah, that's it, that's the ticket!
Marco, I should have given Italian birra to drink to my Bengal finch. I am sure he would have trilled his little frilly heart out with it for the thrill! But red Barolo would have been even better. By my request Agon has nuked my original post.
07-14-05: Lrsky To all the well wishers, TVAD, Trelja, (thanks for the discs) Chadnliz, Boa2, and any I may have missed, THANK YOU.
Foster_9, as you can tell from Larry's response of 7/14/05, I wish him only the best. I guess my play on Guido's spellchecker post didn't land with you. Larry, on the other hand, will undoubtedly know that what I said was merely a joke.
Personally, I think that spelling and grammatical reprimands are the last refuge of a respondent who simply can't find anything else to criticize. Obvioussly, tat's jst meye sily oppinnion.
Hey Boa2, where were you when I was taking ESL classes? You should have voiced your well founded objections with my teacher: that most cruel Mr. De Simoni insisted failing anyone who had more than two spelling errors in their paper. In the end he clearly turned me into a spelling prude!
Guidocorona, I think your Mr. De Simoni must have been the professorial counterpart to my 7th grade English teacher, Ms. White. If we'd only been able to find her a loving mate, I think she might have gone easier on us.
Don't worry about it. Tutto e bene, il mio amico. As forgiving as I am about poor spelling (maybe because of all the letters I received from my farm-raised grandmother) I am disgustingly arrogant about too many other things.
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