Direction of aftermarket fuses (only for believers!)
It is with reluctance that I start another thread on this topic with the ONLY GOAL for believers to share their experience about aftermarket fuses. To others: you can call us snobs, emperors w/o clothes,... etc but I hope you refrain posting just your opinion here. If you did not hear any difference, great, maybe there isn’t.
The main driver for this new post is that I am starting a project to mod my NAD M25 7 ch amp for my home theater. It has 19 fuses (2 per channel, 4 on the power supply board, 1 main AC) and I will try a mix of AMR Gold, SR Black and Audio Magic Platinum (anyway that is the plan, I may try out some other brands/models). As it is reasonably difficult to change them, esp the ones on each channel module that requires complete disassembly, I would like to know what the direction is for these models mentioned and of course, others who HAVE HEARD there is a difference please share your experience on any fuse model you have tried.
Fuses are IME directional: Isoclean is one of the first to indicate the direction (2008/2009) on their fuses. Users of HiFi Tuning (when the awareness rose quite a bit amongst audiophiles) have mostly heard the difference.
As an IEEE engineer, I was highly skeptical of cabling decades ago (I like the speaker design of John Dunlavy but he said on many occasions that cables nor footers matter at all, WRONG!). Luckily, my curiosity proved me wrong as well. I see the same skepticism that I and many others had about the need for aftermarket cables many, many years ago now on fuses and esp on the direction on fuses.
Another example is the direction of capacitors (I do not mean electrolytic types). Even some manufacturers now and certainly many in the past did not believe it can make a difference sonically. Maybe some do but it takes time in the assembly to sort and put them in the right direction/order (esp as some of the cap manufacturers still do not indicate "polarity") so that maybe is one argument why this is not universally implemented.
Therefore, going by Occum's razor as Atmasphere suggests, the hypothesis
with the fewest assumptions would be that the fuse itself is
directional, not the fuse holder.
This is a classic strawman, and like all logical fallacies, is false by definition. I was not at any time suggesting that the holder was directional.
Millivolts...... If that was the
reason, wouldn't the same reasoning hold true for the AC mains line voltage
feeding the fuse? In other words a small VD in millivolts on the mains feeding
a piece of equipment could/would have an impact on the SQ of the piece of equipment. Not hardly....
Its more than just millivolts- I can measure the effects with a 3 1/2 digit voltmeter. Mitch2's suggestion by the way is excellent and is also measurable. Some fuseholders (like panel mount units) won't allow this.
With all due respect for the previous posters, I did reverse an (the same) Audio Magic Platinum in my PS Audio DSD (the same F1 fuse holder on the power supply board) several times and had other listeners present: we all experienced a consistent behavior (with the same tracks): that the direction influences a.o. the soundstage. As mentioned before, I always clean the contact points (fuse holder and fuse itself) before the tests.
To complement my tests, I would suggest, for the sake of experiments, to temporarily test with the same brand with a higher breaking current (e.g. 2A instead of 1A) to see if a lower resistance of the fuse would yield a better SQ.
Anything is possible in this hobby. I do not doubt for a second that you as well as others could/can hear a difference.
Here is quote from an interview with John Curl.
quote:
"I was working with Noel Lee and a company called Symmetry. We designed this crossover and I specified these one microfarad Mylar caps. Noel kept saying he could ’hear the caps’ and I thought he was crazy. Its performance was better than aluminum or tantalum electrolytics, and I couldn’t measure anything wrong with my Sound Technology distortion analyzer. So what was I to complain about? Finally I stopped measuring and started listening, and I realized that the capacitor did have a fundamental flaw. This is were the ear has it all over test equipment. The test equipment is almost always brought on line to actually measure problems the ear hears. So we’re always working in reverse. If we do hear something and we can’t measure it then we try to find ways to measure what we hear. In the end we invariably find a measurement that matches what the ear hears and it becomes very obvious to everybody."
http://www.parasound.com/pdfs/JCinterview.pdf
The why? It took time for Curl to find out the why. I just don’t think the why for the differences you and others are hearing is from a supposed difference in resistance of the internal fuse element inside the fuse. Especially when the fuse, as reported by other, is located on the mains supply side of the power transformer of the piece of audio equipment. Here we are talking about 120V or 240V depending on the country.
With all due respect for the previous posters, I did reverse an (the same) Audio Magic Platinum in my PS Audio DSD (the same F1 fuse holder on the power supply board) several times and had other listeners present: we all experienced a consistent behavior (with the same tracks): that the direction influences a.o. the soundstage. As mentioned before, I always clean the contact points (fuse holder and fuse itself) before the tests.
To complement my tests, I would suggest, for the sake of experiments, to temporarily test with the same brand with a higher breaking current (e.g. 2A instead of 1A) to see if a lower resistance of the fuse would yield a better SQ.
I applaud those who bring in new technology or devices to enhance the SQ. E.g. the Lorentz force was known since 1865 but it took until recently to see the successful productizing of magnetic audio cables. Graphene’s discovery in 1962 took less time for audiophiles to enjoy it in affordable cable form (reference to a.o. Cerious Technology). I know for sure that one of the quoted examples that the designer -as I spoke to him on many occasions- did not go about scientifically but used his curiosity, his instinct and ears.
In this crazy and interesting hobby, I have learned to go away from my EE (Electric Engineer) trained brain to become more Experimental-oriented and Empirical.
Simply enjoy the music!
[SOAP BOX ON] Listen to your system with your ears and an open mind, not an oscilloscope and if-I-can-not-measure-it-than-I-can-not-hear-it mind! Those who stated cables matter were almost put on a stake decades ago, look where we stand now (mind you, there are still some flat earthers out there), [SOAP BOX OFF]
BTW, as a kindly reminder, there have not been as many practical inputs on how certain fuse sound and in which direction I had hoped for when I posted this thread, but then again, given the raised temper and wild directions (pun not intended) of discussions on the other fuse thread, I did not have a very high expectation.
PADIS (=Furutech?) fuses are on their way from Germany and I will hope to share my experience. My NAD M25 is still on the workbench (caps upgrade, did I mention that caps are directional in SQ?)
As it turns out the resistance measurements of the various fuses tested that appear in the data sheets on the HiFi Tuning website were done on the fuses only in both directions. Separate resistance measurements for the fuses in the fuse holder are also provided. Refer to page 2 of the data sheets for the resistance measurements in both directions. The interpretation of measurements is presented on page 3.
Again, great post. The best explanation I have heard to date for
fuse directionality. I would think it should satisfy those that have
experimented with fuse directionality and say they can hear a difference.
I would think it should also satisfy those that say they did
not hear any difference, when they reversed the direction of the fuse.
Three important parts for a good electrical
connection:
Cleanliness. (Free from contaminants and or corrosion)
Contact surface area.
Contact pressure.
Your explanation makes more sense, at least to me, that the
directionality of the fuse has to do with a VD, voltage drop, across the
fuse element itself. That assumes the VD across the fuse would be measured in
millivolts.
Millivolts...... If that was the
reason, wouldn't the same reasoning hold true for the AC mains line voltage
feeding the fuse? In other words a small VD in millivolts on the mains feeding
a piece of equipment could/would have an impact on the SQ of the piece of equipment. Not hardly....
Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor, and lex parsimoniae in Latin, which means law of parsimony) is a problem-solving principle attributed to William of Ockham (c. 1287–1347), who was an English Franciscan friar and scholastic philosopher and theologian. The principle can be interpreted as stating: Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.
Therefore, going by Occum's razor as Atmasphere suggests, the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions would be that the fuse itself is directional, not the fuse holder. That would be like trying to solve two simultaneous equations in three unknowns. By testing the fuse in the fuse holder you cannot with certainty conclude which one is producing the directionality. Eliminate the fuse holder from the equation and all will be revealed. I strongly suspect that the outfit that performed the tests on fuse directionality for HiFi Tuning fuses, for Isoclean Fuses, for stock bog standard fuses, with and without cryogenic treatment, in DC and AC circuits would have observed that the fuse holder was producing directionality if that was the case. But they didn't. End of story's now if any of the naysayers wishes to get serious, and roll up his sleeves and test fuse holders for directionality and submit his results here I would be happy to comment.
Atmasphere 5-26-2016 12:31pm EDT ... I joined this thread recently with some results on testing. Those results are that the directionality appears out of coincidence and that actually greater improvement can be had by rotating the fuse in the holder for best contact. The improvement is measurable and audible; descriptions others have made on this thread of what happens when you get the direction right accurately describe what happens when the contact area is maximized.
Occam’s Razor has something to say here! Given that a fuse has to be used in AC circuits and given that people report differences by reversing the fuse, and also understanding how fuses are inherently incapable of having directionality in any way whatsoever, the explanation that they somehow have an effect by reversing them in the holder is a fairly complex explanation: some sort of unknowable, unmeasurable quality of the fuse itself.
A simpler explanation is that the reversal is improving the contact area because fuse and holder are not dimensionally perfect and the fuse might sit better in the holder in one direction. By rotating the fuse in the holder without reversing it gets the same effect only more profoundly.
almarg said:
Thank you, Ralph. I for one cannot envision a more persuasive case being provided on either side of the issue.
I joined this thread recently with some results on testing. Those results are that the directionality appears out of coincidence and that actually greater improvement can be had by rotating the fuse in the holder for best contact. The improvement is measurable and audible; descriptions others have made on this thread of what happens when you get the direction right accurately describe what happens when the contact area is maximized.
Occam’s Razor has something to say here! Given that a fuse has to be used in AC circuits and given that people report differences by reversing the fuse, and also understanding how fuses are inherently incapable of having directionality in any way whatsoever, the explanation that they somehow have an effect by reversing them in the holder is a fairly complex explanation: some sort of unknowable, unmeasurable quality of the fuse itself.
A simpler explanation is that the reversal is improving the contact area because fuse and holder are not dimensionally perfect and the fuse might sit better in the holder in one direction. By rotating the fuse in the holder without reversing it gets the same effect only more profoundly.
"Geoff, You have an obsessively keen interest in fuses for someone who stated they have no fuses in their system. You are doing an excellent job of keeping the ball in play. I suspect you may have some sort of over/under bet to achieve a certain minimum number of posts on this thread. How many more until you win?"
Well, actually I wouldn’t call it an obsessively keen interest, but I would call it a keen interest. Would you believe I actually have a keen interest in lots of things? I imagine anyone who’s had an aftermarket fuse, especially any of the recent spate of advanced audiophile fuses, would agree they’re very interesting. I’ve had the original Isoclean fuse and the Audio Magic Super Fuse. The reason I am currently not using any fuses in my system if simple: why use ANY fuse when you can use NO FUSE at all? My battery powered system doesn’t have a place to put a fuse even if I wanted to. Heck, I’m not even connected to the house AC so I don’t require power cords either. And I don't have an AC ground to fret about. And I don’t use interconnects, either. See where I’m going with this?
actually greater improvement can be had by rotating the fuse in the holder for best contact
Al and Ralph, Contact cleaner and a small rubber band from your kid's braces does the trick to improve fuse contact with pcb fuse holders.
Geoff, You have an obsessively keen interest in fuses for someone who stated they have no fuses in their system. You are doing an excellent job of keeping the ball in play. I suspect you may have some sort of over/under bet to achieve a certain minimum number of posts on this thread. How many more until you win?
Atmasphere 5-26-2016 12:31pm EDT ... I joined this thread recently with some results on testing. Those
results are that the directionality appears out of coincidence and that
actually greater improvement can be had by rotating the fuse in the
holder for best contact. The improvement is measurable and audible;
descriptions others have made on this thread of what happens when you
get the direction right accurately describe what happens when the
contact area is maximized.
Occam’s Razor has something to say
here! Given that a fuse has to be used in AC circuits and given that
people report differences by reversing the fuse, and also understanding
how fuses are inherently incapable of having directionality in any way
whatsoever, the explanation that they somehow have an effect by
reversing them in the holder is a fairly complex explanation: some sort
of unknowable, unmeasurable quality of the fuse itself.
A simpler explanation is that the reversal is improving the contact area
because fuse and holder are not dimensionally perfect and the fuse
might sit better in the holder in one direction. By rotating the fuse in
the holder without reversing it gets the same effect only more
profoundly.
Thank you, Ralph. I for one cannot envision a more persuasive case being provided on either side of the issue.
And thanks also for the compliments you extended in my direction in some of your other recent posts.
That your technique is to continuously troll until you’ve beaten people down. Its not a way to further discussion, merely a method of making yourself always right all the time.
You can test the fuse holder separately if you really were interested in arriving at the truth. I realize you and Al are just playing Ivory Tower, and have no interest or plan to test either the fuse or the fuse holder. That’s the difference between a Skeptic and a Sceptic.
This statement is false and is an example of the trolling behavior and rhetoric to which I referred.
I did point out on a different thread that we found issues with fuses a long time ago, and in 1990, designed our MA-2 with an entirely different kind of fuse and fuse holder on the basis of improved performance.
Apparently Geoff has forgotten the fact that I joined this thread recently with some results on testing. Those results are that the directionality appears out of coincidence and that actually greater improvement can be had by rotating the fuse in the holder for best contact. The improvement is measurable and audible; descriptions others have made on this thread of what happens when you get the direction right accurately describe what happens when the contact area is maximized.
Occam’s Razor has something to say here! Given that a fuse has to be used in AC circuits and given that people report differences by reversing the fuse, and also understanding how fuses are inherently incapable of having directionality in any way whatsoever, the explanation that they somehow have an effect by reversing them in the holder is a fairly complex explanation: some sort of unknowable, unmeasurable quality of the fuse itself.
A simpler explanation is that the reversal is improving the contact area because fuse and holder are not dimensionally perfect and the fuse might sit better in the holder in one direction. By rotating the fuse in the holder without reversing it gets the same effect only more profoundly.
Jea48, you would undoubtedly save yourself a lot of angst and confusion by doing some due diligence prior to getting involved in the whole fuse directionality thing. I’m afraid I can’t help you a a there appears to be nothing I can say that you will accept. I think I’ve made myself clear. Good luck with all that.
What part don't you understand? You're continually trying to nitpick responses with certain people in threads. Sometimes asking for proof and then you will say in the same thread to take your word as the gospel. I think you just love to argue.
LOL..... You can't even remember what you are arguing about.
Jea48, What on Earth are you going on about? Can you make it easy for everyone to follow your line of uh reasoning and state your problem in a sentence or two?
Huh?
I suggest you start from the start of the entire thread and reread all your posts/responses to others, their responses to yours, and yours back to them. Maybe if you kept notes it might help.
Jea48, What on Earth are you going on about? Can you make it easy for everyone to follow your line of uh reasoning and state your problem in a sentence or two?
almarg 6,398 posts 05-24-2016 10:41pm "I would think that it is not necessary to start modifying hardware and perhaps invalidating warranties in the process of getting to the bottom of the fuse directionality issue. IMO the methodology I suggested earlier should suffice, if done in an honest and careful manner."
Huh? I’m not suggesting that anyone modify hardware or invalidate warranties or any such thing. I’m just saying that you can eliminate the variable of the fuse holder by eliminating it from the test. I’m referring to an independent third party tester. That would be an honest and careful manner, no? Or maybe you’re insinuating that any person who doesn’t get the results you’re looking for isn’t honest and careful, it’s hard to tell. The method you suggested earlier actually doesn’t suffice since some people will jump to the conclusion that it’s the fuse holder that’s directional, not the fuse itself.
cheers,
geoff kait machina dynamica
Third party?
geoffkait posted:
jea48 2,072 posts 05-25-2016 1:07pm "And what recognized industry third party would that be?
Better yet. I am not disputing whether a fuse is directional or not. I believe many that have actually taken the time and tested it for themselves. BUT, with that said can you furnish anything that proves a fuse is directional? Not from a manufacture of audio grade fuses, but rather from an industry independent third party testing laboratory."
You say you believe many people have taken the time to test directionality. One assumes you’re referring to listening tests. The biggest skeptics of aftermarket fuses don’t even do that. Ah, the academic ivory tower.
As for independent third party tester it could be UL. I personally doubt UL would take the job. It could be someone else, some other organization or even individual. I actually don’t think measuring voltage drops or whatever across a fuse requires a rocket scientist. Maybe you can contact NASA or NIST or MIT and see if they are interested. Lol
"The HiFi Tuning fuse measurements that are provided in data sheets on their website were obtained by an independent third party tester. You probably didn’t realize that."
There it is again, third party.
It gets better!
geoffkait posted:
jea48 2,074 posts 05-25-2016 2:18pm Geoffkait: The HiFi Tuning fuse measurements that are provided in data sheets on their website were obtained by an independent third party tester.
to which Jea48 responded,
"For Fuse directionality?"
For fuse directionality and other stuff. Even fuse directionality for AC circuits.
I have a new product to introduce to the market called Dehyde. It’s a dehydrated water product and it comes in small packets that you open, pour into a glass and just add water.
Why would they test for audibility? They test for measured parameters. Remember? Unless you count audio reviewers. Would that meet your obviously high standards?
So now you are admitting there are not any credible third party tests that prove fuses are directional. Finally!
Finally what? I never said third party testers tested for audibility. And the reason I never said it is because they don't test for audibility of direction. If you’re trying to convince me you’re a little obtuse you’re doing an excellent job.
Why would they test for audibility? They test for measured parameters. Remember? Unless you count audio reviewers. Would that meet your obviously high standards?
So now you are admitting there are not any credible third party tests that prove fuses are directional. Finally!
atmasphere 4,822 posts 05-25-2016 5:29pm Geoffkait: just to set the record straight, UL is not a requirement or a directive, it’s a guideline or standard.
to which Atmasphere replied,
"I did not state that it was. I did state that the CE mark was a directive, and that there are others. You simply chose to misinterpret, as part of your on-going program to make others wrong."
wiggle, wiggle...
then Atmasphere quoted me here,
Geoffkait: The insinuation that tests that don’t get the "right" results are not honest or careful is rhetoric. His rhetoric. I’ve already pointed out that a scientifically correct test would eliminate the fuse holder altogether.
"Al is not prone to rhetoric. OTOH such seems to be your lifestyle."
What exactly are you insinuating?
atmasphere closed with this comment,
"A scientific test would not eliminate the fuseholder, not if you actually wanted to know what is going on."
You can test the fuse holder separately if you really were interested in arriving at the truth. I realize you and Al are just playing Ivory Tower, and have no interest or plan to test either the fuse or the fuse holder. That’s the difference between a Skeptic and a Sceptic.
You can’t even provide proof of any credible third party test that fuse directionality is audible.
Why would they test for audibility? They test for measured parameters. Remember? Unless you count audio reviewers. Would that meet your obviously high standards?
just to set the record straight, UL is not a requirement or a directive, it’s a guideline or standard.
I did not state that it was. I did state that the CE mark was a directive, and that there are others. You simply chose to misinterpret, as part of your on-going program to make others wrong.
The insinuation that tests that don’t get the "right" results are not
honest or careful is rhetoric. His rhetoric. I’ve already pointed out
that a scientifically correct test would eliminate the fuse holder
altogether.
Al is not prone to rhetoric. OTOH such seems to be your lifestyle.
A scientific test would not eliminate the fuseholder, not if you actually wanted to know what is going on.
Geoffkait:I read your last post. I read your last two posts. Did I err? Did I misinterpret something?
to which Atmasphere replied,
"As far as I can tell, you misinterpret on purpose. That makes it hard to have a conversation. Example:
Geoffkait: Or maybe you’re insinuating that any person who doesn’t get the results you’re looking for isn’t honest and careful, it’s hard to tell."
Unfortunately the example you provided has nothing to do with what we’re actually talking about, which is YOUR last two posts and if I had misinterpreted something you said. You have deftly avoided answering my question, instead deciding for some bizarre reason to quote my response to Al on a an entirely different issue. In any case, just to set the record straight, UL is not a requirement or a directive, it’s a guideline or standard. In other words, there is nothing preventing an audiophile from using non UL listed fuses. Audiophiles are not directed or required to use UL listed fuses. In the Government, for example, if the Government specifies that a certain standard is required by the contractor then the standard is required. Otherwise the particular standard is NOT required. End of story.
Then Atmasphere opined,
"Al does not insinuate. You are one of the very few I have ever seen to attack Al, who IMO and that of many others is an important asset to this site. You might consider ratcheting down the rhetoric."
The insinuation that tests that don’t get the "right" results are not honest or careful is rhetoric. His rhetoric. I’ve already pointed out that a scientifically correct test would eliminate the fuse holder altogether. I don’t see any reasonable refutation of that approach from either you or Al on that point, just a lot of who shot John.
jea48 2,074 posts 05-25-2016 2:18pm Geoffkait: The HiFi Tuning fuse measurements that are provided in data sheets on their website were obtained by an independent third party tester.
to which Jea48 responded,
"For Fuse directionality?"
For fuse directionality and other stuff. Even fuse directionality for AC circuits.
jea48 then asked,
"If it would not be too much of an inconvenience could you produce a web link of the test from the actual independent testing laboratory. Please include certification of the testing lab."
What about this? What about that? What about this? I’ve posted the link a bunch, so has Al. Try the search function. I don’t like to judge these things too harshly but it appears a little due diligence on your end might be advantageous.
jea48 then wrote,
"Again for all others reading this thread I do not dispute whether fuses are directional or not. I personally have not experimented for myself. I do respect the findings of others that have. Until proven otherwise I take the word of those that say fuses are directional."
That is very accommodating of you.
Then jea48 has the nerve to make the comment,
"The question posed to geoffkait is to produce actually proof that a fuse is directional. So far he has not."
So, you believe what everyone says about directionality of fuses without proof. But you hold my feet to the fire? I’m afraid that’s not logical. Don’t you know it’s not proper protocol to demand proof. Besides, I gave up trying to convince die hard skeptics a long time ago.
The HiFi Tuning fuse measurements that are provided in data sheets on their website were obtained by an independent third party tester.
For Fuse directionality?
If it would not be too much of an inconvenience could you produce a web link of the test from the actual independent testing laboratory. Please include certification of the testing lab.
Again for all others reading this thread I do not dispute whether fuses are directional or not. I personally have not experimented for myself. I do respect the findings of others that have. Until proven otherwise I take the word of those that say fuses are directional.
The question posed to geoffkait is to produce actually proof that a fuse is directional. So far he has not.
jea48 2,072 posts 05-25-2016 1:07pm "And what recognized industry third party would that be?
Better yet. I am not disputing whether a fuse is directional or not. I believe many that have actually taken the time and tested it for themselves. BUT, with that said can you furnish anything that proves a fuse is directional? Not from a manufacture of audio grade fuses, but rather from an industry independent third party testing laboratory."
The HiFi Tuning fuse measurements that are provided in data sheets on their website were obtained by an independent third party tester. You probably didn’t realize that. You say you believe many people have taken the time to test directionality. One assumes you’re referring to listening tests. The biggest skeptics of aftermarket fuses don’t even do that. Ah, the academic ivory tower.
As for independent third party tester it could be UL. I personally doubt UL would take the job. It could be someone else, some other organization or even individual. I actually don’t think measuring voltage drops or whatever across a fuse requires a rocket scientist. Maybe you can contact NASA or NIST or MIT and see if they are interested. Lol
And what recognized industry third party would that be?
Better yet. I am not disputing whether a fuse is directional or not. I believe many that have actually taken the time and tested it for themselves. BUT, with that said can you furnish anything that proves a fuse is directional? Not from a manufacture of audio grade fuses, but rather from an industry independent third party testing laboratory.
I read your last post. I read your last two posts. Did I err? Did I misinterpret something?
As far as I can tell, you misinterpret on purpose. That makes it hard to have a conversation. Example:
Or maybe you’re insinuating that any person who doesn’t get the results
you’re looking for isn’t honest and careful, it’s hard to tell.
Al does not insinuate. You are one of the very few I have ever seen to attack Al, who IMO and that of many others is an important asset to this site. You might consider ratcheting down the rhetoric.
almarg 6,398 posts 05-24-2016 10:41pm "I would think that it is not necessary to start modifying hardware and perhaps invalidating warranties in the process of getting to the bottom of the fuse directionality issue. IMO the methodology I suggested earlier should suffice, if done in an honest and careful manner."
Huh? I’m not suggesting that anyone modify hardware or invalidate warranties or any such thing. I’m just saying that you can eliminate the variable of the fuse holder by eliminating it from the test. I’m referring to an independent third party tester. That would be an honest and careful manner, no? Or maybe you’re insinuating that any person who doesn’t get the results you’re looking for isn’t honest and careful, it’s hard to tell. The method you suggested earlier actually doesn’t suffice since some people will jump to the conclusion that it’s the fuse holder that’s directional, not the fuse itself.
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