Lewm, I don't know what you think of my SME 30/12, but it is a modern belt-drive, and the motor is mounted on the sub chassis which is separated from the platter by the four suspension towers. This prevents motor vibrations from effecting the platter and arm.
The owners of these SME tables with whom I have spoken do not hear issues with sustained piano notes. Perhaps others have had different experiences.
I have not heard the GP Monaco turntable, but one owner I know regrets having sold his SME.
Fleib, I believe the SME suspension is designed to be effective in all directions, not just the straight/perfect up and down movement. |
Lewm, Peterayer,
I believe the 30/12 was introduced sometime near the beginning of this century and is example of what I meant by "having come a long way".
Sota on the other hand, like Oracle, seem to have their heads buried in the sand. My apologies if these have been redesigned, but you simply can't have a suspension, especially a bouncy one, and a fixed motor not moving with that suspension, without serious consequences. They might work pretty good until the suspension is excited, then speed variations and/or sideways forces on the suspended parts wreck havoc.
When I was a high end "turntable guy" I was always amazed by some people's inability to hear speed variations. This can be learned just like perfect pitch is now taught in music schools. It can be a two edged sword though, you might not like what you hear from your rig.
The Sota Sapphires were a mess. The motor was fixed to the plinth and a heavy subchassis/platter hung from the same plinth made out of 1/2" MDF. The three feet that support the whole affair were also attached to that plinth. The belt was replaced (90's ?) by an even flimsier one that insures poor speed stability. The subchassis was made of 1/2" MDF with a lead sheet laid on, and weight blocks on the corners except the arm area that had a reservoir for lead shot.
I still have an old Sapphire I took in trade. It sits in a corner looking pretty. I never could listen to it for more than a short while. I started to redesign it, but the subchassis is warped and azimuth is crazy. I like the platter and I'm thinking of a more extensive redesign with a metal chassis and Verus motor w/o suspension.
It's my understanding that Sota is basically the same today, except the Cosmos which has the motor mounted on the subchassis. I'm no longer familiar with Sota top models, but I imagine it could be looked up. Sota was always very secretive about their designs. They seem to be the only company to disallow their info in the VE database. Wonder why?
Regards,
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Fleib/Peterayer/Lewm
Having set up 100's of TT's when I was a high end dealer in the 80's, it became readily apparent to me that suspended TT's with the motor fixed were not speed stable - particularly noticeable on solo piano pieces. Some are worse than others - the worst I had were the Oracle/Pink Triangle with their very lossy suspensions. The major problem with the early Sota's were the PAPST motor board regulators which were unstable. Knocking these out and replacing them with a decent regulated supply cured much of the SOTA instability. Later SOTA mounted the motor on the sub chassis which is a much better solution in terms of loop rigidity between motor and platter.
My experience selling gear is that many folk can't hear poor timing and therefore it is of no consequence to them.
The SME addresses the issue somewhat by using a hanging suspension and the platter is stabilised to some degree by anchoring the bearing using a rubber O ring looped around the bearing and fixed to the chassis on the opposite side to the motor.
Here is a graphic example of what lousy suspension is doing. When I bought a Platine Verdier ( for a second deck, its way behind the Final Audio ) I set it up with the supplied rubber belt. The Verdier has a very lossy suspension. No matter how I set the tension, the rubber belt vibrated and jigged its way through the music. Removal of the suspension and replacement with fixed adjustable feet ( custom inserts with BDR cones ) eliminated over 95% of the belt creep. Of course going to thread drive ( I use surgical silk ) gets rid of the rubber belt compression issue.
Peterayer I have not heard the SME 30, but certainly the Verdier (with suspension still in) outperformed the SME 20/V in the same system, significantly more resolving and music had a much more substantial foundation. The original owner of the Verdier never listened to the SME 20 again, it was consigned to the office. Cartridges used in the evaluation were Lyra Helikon SL, Koetsu Rosewood & Soundsmith Paua in rotation. For your information the Soundsmith Paua was an outstanding match for the SME combo, providing a very musical system.
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Peter, I can have no opinion of your SME, because I have never even seen one in the flesh. By all accounts, it is excellent.
Fleib, I was saying that the modern SOTA tables (e.g., Cosmos and Millennium) no longer suffer from the sin you and I described (mounting the motor on the unsprung plinth whilst the belt drives a suspended platter). So, I would also say that they have taken their corporate head out of the sand, for the past decade. If I am incorrect in that assumption, please let me know. I owned the SOTA Star Sapphire Series III, with vacuum hold-down, for several years starting around 1990. Thus it was a later version of the Star Sapphire series but still very guilty of the flaws you describe. I went from that to a Nottingham Analogue Hyperspace, which even with all its possible other shortcomings, was nevertheless a revelation by comparison to the SSS III. The vacuum hold-down and felt mat added yet another form of coloration to the sonics; in the end I was not using the vacuum at all, just the excellent SOTA clamp.
Dover, I quite agree with you on the desirability of "loop rigidity". We've spoken of this issue before. My 100-lb Mk3 plinth is home-made with a view to establishing just such a mechanical linkage. As we've mentioned before, the L07D was built from the get-go with a very effective mechanical linkage between bearing/tonearm. I noticed the other day that my friend's TOTL Galibier table is beautifully engineered with that in mind, as well. In fact, it seems to me that the high end Galibier (belt-drive) is very close in concept to your Final Audio. You wrote, "There are only a handful of exceptional turntables out there in my experience." Wouldn't it be more fair to say, "There are only a handful of turntables out there that I find exceptional"? After all, it's your opinion in the end, albeit a well informed one. |
The Final Audio Parthenon indeed represented engineering which was ahead of its time. Dover, for clarification, the latest version Artisan Fidelity Garrard 301 Statement uses an internally damped Magnesium alloy based and Copper modular platter with inverted hydrodynamic bearing. You were correct, however, in that the first production runs utilized an Aluminum and Copper based platter architecture and incorporated internal damping provisions. |
A close friend who lives in France has a Platine Verdier which he just recently replaced with one of the new Kronos turntables, the belt drive with a counter-rotating platter underneath the top platter. He put his Verdier up for sale immediately upon hearing the Kronos. The major problem that I saw with the Verdier is its top heaviness; you have a huge massive platter way up at the top with a rubbery set of feet way down below. It's bound to wobble, even if microscopically. I know there is a heavy granite base too, which probably serves to ameliorate the problem, at least mostly. And then there is the motor, mounted several feet away on a stationary platform; not such a good idea, either, IMO. On the other hand, when I have heard the Platine at shows and in showrooms, it sounds very "nice". |
A close friend who lives in Germany has a Platine Verdier which beats nearly everything which is out there. But it is an original one with the original magnets from Mr. Verdier.
The next models were DIY units with various magnets and variable results. They can't be compared, the name Verdier is also used for inferior copies. Mr. Verdier published from time to time some hints on his website to "His Pirates" knowing very well that they will never get it....always funny to read.
The original Verdier is a work of a Genius who solved a lot of Problems modern units still show. |
Hi Peter
I would like to give my biased opinion for what it is worth as a High end audio seller. What we all need to remember this is a forum and it is on the subject of audio equipment where there can never be a out right winner only a personal favorite & biased what is best opinion in your own audio system.
After living with several Garrard turn tables (301 & 401) that I really enjoyed musically, JC Verdier (Dover) has been talking about, Simon Yorke S7, SME 20/2 and now the SME 30/12 is my favorite & reference turn table for a wide range of music.
I have enjoyed music played on all the above turn tables in my audio systems over the years, but if I had to choose one turn table to keep for ever it would be the SME 30/12. |
Congratulations Jason. I knew you would love this table. Another acquaintance just got one with the V-12 arm and AirTight Supreme, and he could not be happier.
What cartridge are you using and would you mind describing what you like so much about the 30/12? Thanks. |
Peter thank you for your positive comments, I am using the AirTight PC-3 cartridge, one day I would love a AirTight Supreme cartridge.
What I like about the SME 30/12 is very easy to answer, I like the way it gets out of the way of the music, the music just flows from my loudspeakers and fills the room. I do not have to worry the turn table being at the right speed or if the tone arm is the right arm for the turn table.
The SME 30/12 with the SME V-12 tone arm is a incredible combination, now match this with a Airtight cartridge and you have a stellar reference source combination.
I play a lot of music Genres and love bass dynamics plus love the inner details in the music, the SME allows so much music to flow from the Vinyl, personally I have to say it is my favorite turn table from all the turn table.
The set up is so exact and once done all you have to do is check the suspension tower spacing once every few months (this brings very big rewards so SME owners please check from time to time) and place 1 drop of oil per year into the spindle motor drive locator hole.
We have regular music evenings at Parmenter Sound studio with music sessions lasting from 6 to 8 hours of vinyl play back with our friends, the SME 30/12 is a dream to use and a great music source reference for me to be able to demonstrate amplifiers and loudspeakers true full range potential.
So many people have varied opinions on what is the best turn table, I am no different, from my personal experience it is the SME 30/12. |
Syntax, My friend who is switching over to Kronos from Verdier lives in France. Has visited with Mr Verdier, before that gentleman unfortunately passed away. My friend's Verdier is "real", if you or one of your friends cares to buy it. I have no opinion as between these two turntables; I was just reporting second hand what my friend hears in his listening room, in France. Anyway, I don't know how the sourcing of the magnets between the platter and base can ameliorate the other hypothetical issues with the design. But, again, none of this is to say that I don't like Verdier tt's or that they are not good sounding. |
