Ptm, I tried your "interesting test" on my SME 30/12 belt drive. Not easy as the motor pulley is under and very close to the large platter. The rubber belt has only 1" of exposed length between the driven pulley and the platter. I felt none of "the vibrational energy being transmitted to the platter" that you mention. Perhaps the massive SME is built to a different standard than the VPI. I do notice though that the SME has a much shorter "free" belt length than most other belt drive tables - even Syntax's beloved Basis table. I've often wondered about the effect of belt length on these designs.
I don't know of anyone who has tried thread or tape drive on an SME table.
As far as the quality of the belt itself is concerned, I have not directly compared the SME belt to the Basis belt which is purported to be one of the finest in the industry. I agree with those who have written that each design has its strengths and weaknesses so implementation of a proper design is critical to the end result.
Very interesting thread. |
Yes, and the closer the dot on the wall or paper is to the Timeline pointof origin, the harder it will be to for the eye to detect any drift. So if it looks fine at 18" it may be apparent at 10 feet over time that the speed is off.
I agree with Jazdoc's observation that as long as one is very close to accurate speed other issues are very important. IE, How the turntable deals with vibrational energy generated from the motor, the bearing, airborn, floorborn, the stylus/groove interface, the armboard etc. It is not clear to me that absolutely perfect speed accuracy and consistency is the most important characteristic of a turntable. |
For a Timeline test to be truly useful, some standard should be applied. For example, I saw a DD table tested with the Timeline. The owner held a piece of paper behind the turntable and demonstrated that the red dot did not drift during the 20 second test. I asked him what would happen if he let the dot fall on the wall about 4-5 feet away and waited five minutes. He admitted that a further distance would show a drifting over time. A video with a set distance of the laser dot to a wall, say 5 feet away during a period of ten minutes, or with the stylus at the beginning, middle and end of an LP would be good, but I don't want to have to watch a 20 minute video showing the entire length of the LP. Perhaps a fast forward feature with a time stamp and mark on the wall for some kind of consistency would work. Also the test should start with the stylus not contacting the LP and then during the test, it should be lowered onto the LP.
I agree that the results would be interesting, though I really wonder if the speed variation of a successful KAB strobe result versus an unsuccessful Timeline result would be audible. My table shows a steady result with the KAB and I have not had the opportunity to borrow a Timeline.
I would think that any manufacturer who has a design which passes a Timeline test would want to show such a video for marketing purposes. This issue came up in another thread about speed accuracy and someone asked about the accuracy of the Timeline device itself. If the strobe is slightly off, but the table is accurate, the red dot would also drift slightly. Measurements are only as accurate as the measuring devices themselves. |
Halcro, your video of the Victor is most impressive. I'm not sure that many tables would pass that test which such flying colors. Well done. Have you tried this test with the dot falling on a wall that is further away? The video of the Transrotor tells a whole different story. It's surprising how far off that is with such a heavy platter. Someone once described the effect of stylus drag as similar to a fly trying to slow down an elephant. I no longer see the relevance of that analogy.
As interesting as a list of tables that pass this test would be, I don't think we will see one any time soon. Thanks for sharing your video. |
I agree with Dover. I watched Ct057's video, blew it up to full screen size, place the point of my cursor on the "33" and it is clearly lurching forward. However, I notice some lurching on my KAB disk which is a result of the disk not being perfectly flat on the LP surface. The warp, if you will, effects the movement of the "33" precisely the same once per revolution. So some of this observed lurching is from the imperfection of the KAB disk itself. But the lurching that is in sync with the finger tapping in the video seems to be the result of the platter motion and motor correction. What turntable is in the video? |
There is a new table called the Tech Das Air Force One which is getting a bunch of buzz over on WhatsBestForum. It has a magnetically levitated platter which I think is driven by a rubber belt. Bob Graham is importing it as the NA distributor and likes it so much that he is developing a new 12" arm called the "Elite" for the table. Two samples are at CES now. It's nice to see that someone is developing new, seemingly very well engineered turntables these days which are reaching for the state of the art. The NVS is DD and this one is belt. It will be interesting to see how they compare long term to some of the classic vintage tables discussed here. |
I noticed that my LPs sounded cleaner after I upgraded the power cord to my Loricraft PRC 4. Just kidding. It's a mad world.
All of this serious writing about turntable speed and measuring devices had me wanting to contribute some levity to the discussion. Sorry.
Back to the topic and hand and thanks to those of you who are really thinking about this and sharing your results. |
Harold, how would you compare the Oracle hanging suspension to those of SME and Basis? I'm just curious, because they are also belt drive systems that use fairly developed suspension systems. |
Syntax, had you heard depth and physical presence in that system before with a different turntable?
I read that Artisan Fidelity does modify the power supply and electronics in the table and controller. Perhaps not the same mod level as the Krebs, but it is not stock from my understanding.
Altering piano and trumpet tones sounds like speed deviation at a micro level, but isn't the Technics SP10 known for superior speed control, both accuracy and consistency? |
Lewm, I don't know what you think of my SME 30/12, but it is a modern belt-drive, and the motor is mounted on the sub chassis which is separated from the platter by the four suspension towers. This prevents motor vibrations from effecting the platter and arm.
The owners of these SME tables with whom I have spoken do not hear issues with sustained piano notes. Perhaps others have had different experiences.
I have not heard the GP Monaco turntable, but one owner I know regrets having sold his SME.
Fleib, I believe the SME suspension is designed to be effective in all directions, not just the straight/perfect up and down movement. |
Congratulations Jason. I knew you would love this table. Another acquaintance just got one with the V-12 arm and AirTight Supreme, and he could not be happier.
What cartridge are you using and would you mind describing what you like so much about the 30/12? Thanks. |
