I tried the EVS and they did not work anywhere near as effectively as the reference GC's I have on my speakers, now. I am, so far, the only one to have a not-so-positive situation with the EVS GE's. That means nothing, though, to anyone else, as everything with either the EVS or AP is system dependent. I am only reporting so folks can get a balanced idea, not to knock any of the designs between the two mfrs.
So far, the AP ref GC's on all of my speakers has provided an immensely satisfying experience with immensely focused sound stage, wide open, clean, clear and removal of haze/grunge so much so that it is startling at times.
Note, too, I recently added the superb Walker Reference Plus HDL's to my speakers along with the AP reference GC's. These definitely work synergistically/cumulatively as they work in a totally different fashion in the application. With both, the noise floor just dropped into total blackness, speakers completely gone in my room, left with a super clean, clear multi channel image without any glaze, grunge or high frequency glare. I was, frankly, totally amazed. What I previously thought was a totally clean, hash/grain free background I found was not at all. Not until I finally added the Walker Audio's to the equation along with the AP GC's. I still have to add a set of the Walkers to the woofers in the bi-wire and bi-amp application on 4 speakers later this week. I am told that it is a suprising difference where one would not expect a change but is rather large in terms of bass definition, speed and dynamics as well. I am looking forward to that soon.
I just ordered as standard set of GC's for my amp and receiver amp outputs to see how they balance with the refs on my speakers. This should be interesting.
What this all proves is these doggoned things are immensely system dependent. Some folks found no change with the AP but found large changes with the EVS. Others, with both. Mine, no go on the EVS but AP is two thumbs up. This proves Bud's point that you really need to try them and see how they will work in differing places in your system.
I have two more sets of standard GC wrapped up for Christmas to add to the bass of my Martin Logans and to my amp. December 26th, I will be in my soundroom all day, can't wait.
I will report back after that with my findings. As already stated, I have a set on the stator panels already which did an amazing job of improving things.
As a note, this last week, I obtained several samples of the GE from EVS and installed them into my system. Previously, I have been using the reference GC on both the low freq and mid/high freq posts on my 4 main speakers along with Walker Audio Reference Plus HDL's in my HT and one on my center speaker (note - as of this writing, my CC does not have the ref GC on it pending receipt of some Cardas banana adaptors to allow for its reinstallation as I also have Walker Audio Reference Plus HDL's on this and can not fit all of them on the CC posts at present. I hope to have the Cardas adaptors tomorrow evening to reinstall the ref GC along with the HDL).
The results were extremely impressive with the ref GC on my system. No image truncation in any plane. In fact, it remained static in size from before installation but the image specificity, clarity, removal of grunge, grit and grain, dynamic color, instrumental color, vividness and "you are there in the room with the action/music/musicions" was incredibly precise in any plane horizontal and vertical providing an immensely satisfying sonic result to film and BD audio high def discs.
Late last week, I received a set of the competitor models and hooked them in place of my ref GC's on my speakers after removing the ref GC's. I also hooked them on my amp outputs. Immediately, I was not happy with the results at all. The remaining superb benefits of the Walker HDL's remained but suddenly I lost all image precision I had enjoyed, a haze and grit ensued as if a blanket had been thrown over the soundfield and it became diffuse. After two days of installation to break in, not much changed.
Later, I found out my amp has floating outputs, not negative grounded so I removed them from the amp. Things improved a great deal and almost all of the grit/grain'haze disappeared but some haze and diffuse imaging remained. I lost the incredible spotlighting localization the ref GC's provided. It was as if someone turned out the lights on the system and I was in the dark, to a greater degree, again. Out went the competitor GE's and back in the ref GC's went.
Bang! Everything I found absolutely entrancing with the Walker Audio Reference Plus HDL's + ref GC's returned. I realized I can not live without this combination ever again.
I should note that I will be installing the Walker Audio Ref + HDL's on the woofer posts of the 4 main speakers tomorrow night along with the currently employed reference GC's and fully expect an improvement over what I have gained now, according to what I have read from W/A and others that use the HDL's in bi-wire/bi-amp applications. The bass is enhanced where one would not expect so in cleaning up ultrasonic garbage entering the speaker cables. This should prove most interesting as I am extremely happy so far.
I have ordered some standard GC RCA's for my amp RCA unused inputs and one for my reference HT receiver to see how they work on that end. I did note the competitor model GE's did NOT increase my soundstage further from the reference GC's, it remained static in size, nor did the GE's truncate the soundstage, either.
I understand I am somewhat of an anomaly so far in the competitor models. Please note that I did not find them, after they broke in my my speakers after about 36 hours or more, to be bad per se. And, if I probably had heard them without trying the ref GC's I would have found their improvement, over the system without them, to be very positive. It is just once I have had the immense pleasure of the reference GC's on my speakers they are, for my system and my listening sensibilities, the sin quo non with the Walker Audio's in tandem. There is, on my system, a synergistic and cumulative relationship that is most desireable and immensely satisfying, as of today.
Lastly, let me restate - this is my system and my results. They may very well be very different from the improvement other systems may provide. So, this is in no way a negative review or consideration of either product. I just want to be clear they were good, very good, in their own right.
Oddeophile, Good thing you did'nt sell your GC's Ref when you were thinking of getting the GE's.
I have only used the GE's on my Home theatere system. Except, I do however have one GC Ref RCA on my surround receiver and it seems to work well there.
My 2 channel system has all standard GC's. I will state that I had the GC's Ref in both spades and RCA's and they did not sound very good with my system. It was too much upper midrange/treble glare along with a shrunken soundstage. So, I only use the Standard GC's. I'm thinking that your combo of the GC Ref's + Walker links is what is making the sound connection for you. Have you tried just the GC ref's without the Walker links?
Anyway, just goes to show that everyones system is different and experiment is the key.
P.S. I also tried Bud's simple 2 foot loop wire trick and it also worked pretty good . About 50% of what the GC's provide.
Yeah, I had the ref GC's on my speakers a pair per speaker for bi-wire and bi-amp prior to insalling my first walkers on the upper posts. Loved 'em. Added the walkers on the upper posts and - wow. then, just added the walkers on the bass posts on wed night. they are breaking in now. Initially, whole system went totally dark and lacking definition. Typical of the first insert of the walkers as I experienced the same thing until after a few hours when they began to break in. Now, lightening and tightening up by the hour. I am immensely satisfied and still have at least 10 hours to go for the walkers to break in (total min 20 hours according to Walker). I just ordered some standard RCA's for this weekend which should arrive by tomorrow I am guessing. Should be interesting to add to amp/receiver/preamp areas one at a time once the walkers break in.
You are 100% correct these things are so system dependent. I did not have quite the glare you speak of with the refs, but I did with the EVS ones which are going back to Ric today via UPS. They created an immense glare at first for about 2 days on my systme then settled down but were fuzzy sounding compared tot he ultimate clarity I received with the ref GC's on my speakers.
This is an abject lesson to all reading - you gotta try these in all types and places to see how they work on your system. Everyone will be different.
The "glare" is actually the ground devices charging. It takes a number of charge and discharge cycles before they stabilize, no matter who makes them. The Ground Control devices show a pronounced slant to high frequencies and a distinct narrowing of sound stage at first. Over about a 3 hour period this "uptight" character will collapse into ever more detail and stage width and then squeeze back into the uptight character. Each cycle takes longer than the one before and when finished they are always wide, even and clear.
I had a similar effect with my EVS as well. Mine sounded bright and grainy compared to my AP's. Bud is absolutely correct on the permutations with the AP versions as I heard this effect clearly Friday night and Saturday after installing my next set of AP's. I bought 3 standard RCA's to place on my unused amp inputs, reference HT receiver and found they did just that. Now, they have stabalized. I have placed an order for 3 ref RCA's and 2 more standard RCA's to play with adding in tandem to my receiver to add some detail that seemed to spread out and also to my preamp and go from there.
Bud, how many cycles do you believe it takes to stabalize? I seem to get the final settle in around the 3rd day or so. 6 moons seemed to have the same effect, around 72 hours or so.
This sounds like an interesting product. But I am putting a 8' ground rod and connect it to the chassis of the preamp. Will my system still benefit from AP GC?
To completely stabilize, in my system, about 6 to 7 hours, but then my system is already full of the things and has been for three years. 72 hours wouldn't worry me, but I might become impatient....
Vet93,
Yes they will still work. Maybe better maybe worse. There are just too many variables in individual systems for me to say something absolute. I will point out that they have a money back guarantee return policy. Just send them back within 30 days. I would suggest you start with a pair of Standard lug GC's for your speakers. If that provides something you like then slowly investigate additional GC's until you are satisfied.
I think I still heard some additional changes to the last set of RCA's I added last Friday night, last evening when I came back to the system. Sounded bigger/larger fuller sound stage again last night. Huge and open in fact, as in real life. Frankly, scary good. I still have to work on adding ref RCA's and standard RCA's to my preamp and BD player as well as PS Audio PWD DAC to see how those go. I have on order a couple that came in to you that were shipped yesterday but Galen should be sending you another order today as there was a mistake in quantity of the ref and standard RCA's as I needed one more of each. I want a full, final, complement on hand to review and determine in/out finally makes it all work otherwise its hit/miss with taking some out to move to another location as there could have been an additional synergistic approach I might have been missing.
It seems in my system adding ref/standard to each component improves the large, full sound stage presentation preserving the detail with the reference GC on the same component. I hope that holds true for the final assault for the last order coming through I hope you could ship today to come on Thursday or so, so I can begin to make some final judgements this weekend. Anyway, these are really superb devices and do fly in the face of reason (For those non-technical folk out there like myself). But they are just becoming "I can no longer live without" devices along with my Walker Audio Reference + HDL's that just makes such a huge difference it is quite shocking and amazing. Your original versions work so much better, for me at least, than the competitor model it was quite a surprise. They all worked to one degree or another, but not to the degree the reference/standard combination has for my system.
Ozzy and Oddeophile, could you elaborate on which input or outputs on your HT receivers that you have had the best results. I would like to try the standard RCA's on my HT receiver, but there are way too many inputs and outputs to choose from.
Ozzy, I am curious if you are still using one standard and one reference RCA on your Cary cd player in your two channel system. I am also curious if adding the reference rca to the standard rca gave any decrease in harmonic richness.
Interestingly, I have tried the standard rca on my Naim XS integrated amp input, and I am getting an increase in harmonic richness that makes vocals addictive. However, I am also experiencing a decrease in sound stage width. So, at this point I have the rca on my dac via a rca y-adaptor. The wide sound stage is back, but the vocals are not as rich. However, I have not had any time to let it settle in.
Almost all commercial consumer electronic gear has a common ground between input and output and left and right channel. So, in most you can plug the RCA into any input or output, except an SPDIF input or output, anywhere ever.
How long was the RCA on the gear that lost soundstage? You may not be aware that there is a cycling that occurs. Changes from almost mono and elevateds high frequencies to wider soundstage and very flat frequencies, but it goes through a number of these cycles before settling down. Takes 6 to 7 hours of continuous music in my system from unused condition. Some folks report an even longer period of this "breathing". Different for every single piece and type of gear, but the end product for a standard GC is wide and deep sound stage.
Just to make sure we didn't ship the wrong part, look to see if the ground petals on the RCA plug are gold colored.
Scottmac62 I am no longer using both the Standard and the Reference RCA GCs on my Cary. I am now just using the standard on it. Again, my experience with the GC Reference is that they do not provide a positive quality with my 2 channel system. They seem to constrict the soundstage and increase the upper midrange/lower treble. The weird thing is the Reference GC's seem to work great with My Home Theater Equipment. For my Home Theater Receiver (Denon 5803) I have the put the GC Reference RCA on one of the 7.1 inputs since I am only using the 5.1 inputs. I also have a Standard RCA on my Oppo BP 83SE unused 7.1 outputs. So, I guess experiment is the answer
I have quite a bit of Rick Cullen Modified PS Audio equipment, the PCA2/HCPS preamp, GCA500, two separate power plant premier power plants, one for analog, one for digital, several duet conditioners in various places, all PS Audio premier SC silver/copper power cords throughout, silver IC and speaker cabling, Pioner SC-09TX reference surround receiver, Pioneer BDP-09 Blu Player, PS Audio PWT and PWD Digital playback system, all silver HDMI cabling, two JL Audio F113 subs, Pioneer KURO Pro151 60" plasma, 4 Swan 6.1 speakers, C3 center, all equipment on Aurios Pro isolation bearings. Alternately, I have a MESA Engineering Baron tube amplifer. Lastly, I have Walker Audio Reference Plus HDL'S on all speakers. Front L/R speakers are bi-wired, back speakers bi-amped.
I have the GC's standard and reference RCA on my preamp/SC-09, standard RCA's on my inputs to my amp, and reference GC's on all speakers. I am awaiting a shipment of one ref RCA and one regular RCA to place on both my PWD and BDP-09 alternately, for now and see how it goes. The last set of RCA's are burning in now on the SC-09 and preamp and should be settled in by this weekend sometime.
My personal results have been that Bud's version worked much better for me in tandem than did EVS version. But, that is just my system. I understand many others have used the EVS to great improvement. I will post more once the most recent RCA's settle and I get a good handle on the final results + playing around with them in/out.
Scottmac, Let them settle in for a while. Bud says several hours. In my system I hear changes in sound stage, image tightness, to bloom, then tightness then settle + changes in harmonics over a period of several days. Typically, so far, the improvement was in my system most seen on the 4th day. I hear no decrease in harmonic richness with the ref versions. In fact, the instrumental color is superb. I did note, in mine, so far, that using the standard and ref models in each component yields the best results. Remember, that is my system, and each varies. The harmonic warmth is retained as well as a purity and open, detailing that is really superb. Images are tight, spot on and in surround that is intriguing to me. Remember, though, as of now I still have several days for the last set to settle in for final judgment and determination of sonic changes. While I am watching TV in surround right now I hear the sound altering a lot and sound staging as they settle in per Bud's comments on their "cycling". I should have a good handle on them by Sunday night.
Ozzy is absolutely right. I am using both the ref and standard on one of my inputs to my SC-09 receiver in my HT section on one of the 7.1 analog input sections. I use all digital input to the receiver so any would do fine.
I have not experienced the elevation in upper mids Ozzy has, just an extension of the extreme top end which opens up the sound immensely with low level details which are extraordinary. The upper mids are as warm and flat as ever. Same with sound stage. Mine did not decrease at all. Remained open, huge and deep on musical presentations and for movie tracks it opens up the sound to a huge open sound field from top to bottom. Remember, though, I use the Walker Audio Reference + HDL's on all my speakers which could alter results from what others have found. The Walkers and AP's work synergistic and on different levels. I am not the only one reporting the use of both together to super results. So, I may be a bit of anomaly that needs to be kept in mind here.
According to Rick at EVS, sometimes tying the little buggers to the speaker cable with some soft cotton string at their top and bottom ends, or otherwise keeping them from resonating, has cured the "hardness" that some people are experiencing.
Yes, they do have the gold ground petals. I burned in my standard rca on my cary amp for hundreds of hours since I had some new tubes to burn in. I then let it settle in for about ten days on the Naim. So, they were settled in. I think what is going on is that Niam's forte is star grounding. So, i think that adding another star ground is overkill. I did however, finally add a standard rca to my dac via a rca y-adapter and have let that settle in for a day. Now this is a different story. For vocals and acoustic music it a dream come true. Vocals now have that presence that i have experienced with single ended tube amps, but with so much more air and decay trails that let you hear the recording studio. So, there is more depth and a maybe a little bit more width. There is also more detail, but in a very organic presentation. I found the standard spades to have more effect in increasing width in my system. The only downside i have at this point is that i am getting too much mid bass weight on certain types of music. However, my system is already tuned this way.
Ozzy and Oddeophile.
Are you using an HDMI connection for your HT? I tried the rca on my Denon center channel 7.1 input and did not really notice much. I also have a standard spade on my Gallo nucleus center channel speaker. I was really hoping to get that organic mid bass bloom quality that i got with my dac, but so far no luck. I will have to experiment with my bluray and dvr.
Yes, I have both a standard and refereence RCA on my Pioneer Elite SC-09TX. I use a very expensive silver HDMI cable made by PS Audio which is the finest sounding, and looking, HDMI cable I have found so far. It absolutely walks on any copper and silver clad copper HDMI I have tried so far. Not even close. It was originally designed by PS Audio to carry hi resolution data between their PWT and PWD transport and DAC in a true I2S transmission with all data carried separately. In my PWT/PWD it is immediate and obvious the difference in sound quality, so I tried it on my Pioneer BDP-09 - SC-09 connection and was amazed at how much more detail and better imaging/balance, detail, depth, dynamic capability the sound became on hi -res lossless movie tracks. then, on to the video end where I eventually added one for the BDP-09 to the Pioneer Elite Kuro Pro-151 plasma display, and there they have all stayed, except for cleaning the connections periodically, for about 1.5 years now.
Anyway, I noted an improvement in the 5.2 channel set up when adding them initially to the SC-09 receiver but caution they are not broken in yet. I have had them only in now for about 48 hours and it takes at least another 2 days before they will finally settle. Last evening, the sound did just what Bud states - initial pleasing sonic improvement, then dull/narrow, then wide/bright, then back and forth and I could easily hear this going on while using the system. It is freaky to note that. However, I expect to hear them finally settle by sometime on Sunday which is the norm. We'll go from there for the final notation on how they work in that format.
Also, I have a set breaking in on my two channel preamp which is also integrated into the HT system and should be fully broken in by then to know what happens when any of them are removed, inserted again, etc. The good thing about the RCA versions is they can be quickly removed and replaced for immediate, and obvious, noted changes. I have noted already, however, the bass is deeper, and when they are not breathing in and out, for the short time they appear to settle the sound can become quite organic and the top end is also much extended.
I would suggest you try the Walker Audio HDL's. If you are having problems especially with your CC speaker, try adding the walkers. They extremely effectively remove all ultrasonic EMI/RFI from the system. Believe me, I had no clue this was even effecting my system until I added them. Immediately a huge amount of heretofore unknown grain and crap was infecting my system and now stripped away providing a very sweet, warm and smooth/natural sound. Performances moved literally into my room and moved me directly to the studio when called for or auditorium. Superb. Movie sound tracks take on an al new "you are there" sound. Combining the two is quite an experience when I had the AP reference GCs' on my speakers alone and then added the walkers along with them. Never heard it sound better and more consistent from early morning, day and night time use.
You have really piqued my interest in the Walker Audio/AP combo. First of all, I must say I have sticker shock on the Walker Audio HDL's. I can not believe that such a small little box with only a couple of parts can cost this much. Have you had the chance to compare the Reference HDL to the Mark iii? There is no description on the difference in construction or sound.
I did get a chance to try the GC rca on my center external 7.1 input on my receiver, and here i did notice a difference. Less glare at higher volumes. However, the sound had less bloom and the sound field was more narrow. Not getting that warm organic sound that I did on my other components. I guess I will have to experiment with source gear for my HT system.
If you have any extra Walker's or AP rca's that you no longer need. let me know. I have a spare AP spade that I can't find any use for.
Give the GC time to settle and break in on the receiver. I have both versions on mine and the sound stage is quite large to say the least and detailed exquisitely. Yes, the HDL's are not the cheapest thing on the street but like the GC they are indespensable and when you have them on and break in you will never want to be without them. If you don't biwire or biamp its not too bad and I did get them through a dealer if you pm me I will advise you of to contact to discuss options.
The Reference Plus is much better than the Mark III, both my dealer advised (who I trust absolutely) and Lloyd Walker. They do add an additional dimensional benefit the Mark III does not, I am advised. I went for all matched for my system. They are matched super tight, use silver capacitors and parts that are all "nude" internally, then cryo'ed in a specific process, etc. There is I am advised a 10-15% mortality rate in production due to the extremely difficult parts to work with. As I said, I am completely in love with them, though, along with Bud's GC's. Staple in my system.
Give the GC in your receiver time to settle. The standard GC should provide for an enlargement and detachment better from the speakers in your 5.1 presentation when settled in. I think actually on a receiver and source without a true third ground structure they show a larger improvement, at least I thought so, over time. Mine are on their final settle in process this week and will know more this weekend for final determination but I was enraptured this last weekend with a few movies I knew well before adding in the final set of RCA GC's to the system and what I heard was extremely promising and delightful.
Thanks for clearing that up Odd. At that price I would much prefer a demo or used pair. So, I think I will be patient for now.
As for my HT system, i do have an update. The standard rca GC on both my Marantz B-ray and my DVR had a profound effect on the sound and now i find them indispensable in both applications. For the first time i actually really enjoyed some live music recorded on my DVR through my Denon receiver. I didn't think this would ever be possible, but the sound now has so much more warmth and an actual sense of PRAT if you can believe it. I highly recommend the rca's on your DVR. It makes regular tv audio so much better. So, it looks like i will be needing at least a couple more GC rca's.
Gee thanks... here we go for round four of ordering more GC's... Ha, ha! Yup, looks like I will have to add those to my remaining GC list for the cable and also now considering them on the subwoofers. I am considering the standard RCA's for both subs and the cable box. I have "heard" from some guys adding them to a hi def panel also improves the panel display. One step at a time, so now appears I will have to add to the cable. I have an email in to Bud asking about considerations for the subs.
I made some these myself out of some thick zip cord. I found putting two speaker grounds on each binding ground posts of my amp and then putting two of these on each (Positive) binding posts of my speakers. This gave my system a more balanced and more Life-like sound! So I put two of these on the left ground binding post of my amp and two on the right ground binding post of my amp. Then I put two on the left ((Positive)) binding post of my speakers and two on the right ((Postive)) binding post of my speakers. I found out about the Diy speaker ground tweak here.. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=87809.0
Scottmac62, for a way cheaper alternative to the Walker Links, try the Detail Magnifiers. I just received a set of 4 (Bi-wire speakers). So far , quite impressed. See the thread I started about these.
According to my dealer, when I bought the Walker Reference + HDL's, the Detail Magnifiers sounded about the level of the older Walker mark II design. The current Walker Reference + model has far better parts and construction, triple processed cryo treatments, etc.
The Walkers along with the GC's are simply revelatory in my system. I have never heard it sound like it does now. Finally, it sounds like the many thousands I have invested in it should make it sound.
I would try both. With 30 day return privilege, it is worth the cost to try both out.
Oddeophile, The Detail Magnifiers now claim to also use higher grade parts and wire/spades.
Here is from the website.
"Our latest design uses much higher quality parts than the original and sounds much better! It has silver spades, WBT silver solder and solid silver annealed wire with a clear teflon cover as pictured above. What you can't see is the new better 10 section PPFX Multicap and better resistor being used! "
Of course a direct comparison between the Walkers and the Detail Magnifiers would be very useful. But, there is almost a 6x cost difference in the 2 products.
I have standard GCs on the Duevel Bella Lunas driven by Wavac EC300-B and have now added a RCA Reference GC to the AudioAero Capitole SE which already had an Acoustic Revive RGC-24.
Amazingly! the two devices are compatible and reinforce each other in terms of blackness and separation. If anything, the soundstage has become more physical, i.e. individual instruments have additional specificity in lateral and horizontal space. There is also additional detail e.g. in reed rasping of clarinets or saxophones and decay of cymbals. When disconnecting the AR device, the shrinking of the soundstage noted by others when using the reference GC is clearly evident.
I guess there is a lot more to grounding and much of it is experimental
Amazingly! the two devices are compatible and reinforce each other in terms of blackness and separation
Hole in one Anti. The two were deliberately designed to work together to uncover and retain the information your system was already capable of providing. Eventually do please try the RCA versions on preamp , DAC or stand alone CD player. Especially an inexpensive stand alone CD player.
Now you know for certain that you did not waste your money on your gear!
Bud, On AA there is a thread that states to further improve on the Ground Control idea attach a wire from the negative side of the Amp to a 9 Volt battery negative side only. Claims are to greatly increase dynamics and increase all the good stuff that the Ground Control does.
Ozzy, don't do it if your amp is a SS amplifier. All SS amps have a connection to ground and, just like placing too many GC's on a solid state preamp, I am pretty sure this next hot idea is just going to turn one or both channels off. Won't hurt the SS equipment and should clear within a half hour of removal, but I would expect problems for 100% of SS gear.
Well I just tried it . I used some of the Radio Shacks 9V battery clips and soldered them to a RCA. Plugged the RCA into one of the unused RCA inputs on my Amp (I am using the Balanced inputs). First, I tried it with just one RCA and then with 2.
Resultd so far , not as dramatic as I hoped but perhaps more detail and dynamics. But then I added another one of these to my Dac along side a Ground Control, it seems the soundstage and detail increased.
Have'nt tried it on my speakers yet So, I will experiment further.
Thanks for the advise Ozzy. I just ordered a pair. Did you go with the cryoed or non-cryod?
I was getting close to trying out the Walkers, but then I came across a great deal on the new Stillpoint Ultra SS footers. I hear they are a significant upgrade to the regular stillpoints with risers and inverse risers which I have. Like the AP GC's the stillpoints are another one of those rare tweaks that improve sound staging and detail while paradoxically sweetening the highs with better timbre. The Purest Audio Design digital filter is another that I am now playing around with.
So, the price of the Detail Magnifiers is ideal for my Gallo Nucleus HT speakers. For my DeVore Super 8's I will have to wait and see if the Walkers reference HDL are that much better.
Scottmac62 , I did'nt go for the Cyro version of the Detail Magnifiers. Probably because it would have added about 4 weeks to the order. But, I would like to know if it does provide any sonic improvement.
Keep me posted on any difference when you try the Walkers. I will also look into the your other tweaks.
I no longer see any benefit with the 9V battery idea. The Ground Controls are still wayyy much better. But at least I got to try it for myself.
Ozzy, according to Earl, the non cryo version is warmer than the non cryo version. Warmer is a better match for my HT system. I wish we could get some feed back on how they compare to the Walker mrk3 and the Reference plus.
I am also curious about your experience with the Audioprism reference GC on your Cary cd player. I had a very similar experience on my Dac. The standard alone gave a nice rich tonal balance but became a bit too congested when music with more bass was played. Adding a fully burned in reference GC and letting it settle over night was spectacular that evening. Not only did the width and depth increase but there was an added sense of illumination behind the decay trails. The added sense of realism was quite addictive.
Unfortunately, my sound stage constricted in between the speakers the next day and remained this way. I have tried recycling the Reference GC, but have not had much time to experiment. It is interesting that I also have to reset my Synergistic Research Powercell SE every few weeks by unplugging and replugging becasue the same kind of sound stage narrowing and upper frequency boost also occurs.
Scottmac62, I have not unplugged my SR Powercell but I do periodically unplug my Preamp. My Preamp has no on or off switch so it is on 24/7. Sometimes it just seems like the Soundstage has gone flat. Unplugging the Preamp for a few minutes then plugging it back in seems to rest it. I might try unplugging my Powercell, thanks for that tip.
I think you meant to type that the Cyro version is warmer? My system leans toward the warmer side already. The Detail Magnifiers seem to bring out the bass quality quite nicely.
I dont know if we will ever hear a fair comparison between the Walkers and the Detail Magnifiers. Because when big $$$ are spent on the Walkers I doubt if anyone would say the Detail Magnifiers are as good or better.
Perhaps if the Walkers had a trial period, I would try them myself.
Getting back to the Ground Controls. It seems the latest buzz is connecting a 9 Volt battery to its negative side only and then attaching that to the negative posts of either spades or RCA. I have tried it in several places and though it seems to be ok in places I do not have the Ground Controls, they do not add to the Ground Controls enhancement.
The biggest difference is in the slight details. The DM's are about on par with the older Walker Mk II HDL version in total improvement from what I have been able to determine. The reference + would add maybe 5% improvement. If you are into the last word in improvement then the Walker Ref + is the deal. They are triple cryo'ed at each stage and use a proprietary RC network with all silver parts. the DM uses much lower quality parts in comparison. All Walker parts are also nude components. This all adds to a next level degree of improvement. The difference would be in the subtleties of the presentation.
It is indeed interesting to hear what the CG's do with each system. I have yet to experience the soundstage shrinkage others have with the ref GC on source components. Using both together works in a synergisic approach in mine. Interesting. Using them in tandem on my ref BD player was really amazing and seemed to take the video as well to the next level of HD picture. A tad more detail and depth/dimensionality to the picture. Sweet.
Not everyone is interested in squeezing the last bit of difference i their system. DM's would work well for 95% of audiophiles in conjunction with everything else. I am not saying anything negative they are anything less than revelatory to anyone nor am I attempting to knock them, at all. Everyone has their own cup of tea they like, right? I was interested in the last word I could achieve in my system so the difference was worth it. I did not have positive sonic impressions with earlier versions of the caps they use in the MD so that kind of turned me off to the idea. Earlier versions of those caps sounded muffled in my system, so when I saw that it wasn't as much a possible component to me. The all proprietary silver nude caps used in the Walkers were the last word. At least, until they come up with the Reference plus, plus. Ha, ha.
Oddeophile, thanks for your comments. You do know that there is a newer version of the Detail magnifiers and they also are said to use higher grade silver parts ? Is that the version you compared to the Walkers?
On your Blu Ray player, are you saying that you are using the Ref GC's with the Walkers how is that possible?
Ozzy, Earl was referring to the non-cryo version being warmer. The cryo process increases transparency while usually decreasing mid bass warmth.
About the Powercell, Ted Denny himself recommends unplugging the Powercell for about 30 minutes every 3 to 4 weeks. This phenomenon of a diminished sound stage and strident highs has been observed by a lot of folks on the SR tesla thread. When ever I know I will not be listening to my system for a good three days I will go ahead and reset the Powercell.
I am trying a similar scenario with the reference GC. I had a listening session today where the reference GC was taken out last night, but the regular GC rca was left on my Dac. After re-inserting the reference GC rca today, the sound stage underwent a vast expansion after about 5 to 10 minutes while maintaining sweet extended highs. Even with this inconvenience, it is still a keeper for me.
I would love to compare the Walkers, and they will let you demo them at the cableco. However, I have way too many tweaks and variables on the table at this point.
Oddeophile, I would also like to know which version you compared to your walkers.
I am using the walkers (two) on each speaker. One for the bass, one for the mids/high posts and one for the center channel. Using Ref and standard GC on the BD player output with superb results.
The Detail Magnifiers I have seen with the higher grade parts are still nowhere near the level of the walker reference + components, construction or triple cryo process.
Already having Reference GCs on my speakers, I purchased a second pair of Reference GCs terminated with RCAs to try them on my amp (I run XLR ICs leaving the RCA inputs open). When I didnt notice much improvement with the GCs on the amp, I moved one of the GCs to an RCA input on my JL Audio F112 subwoofer. When I initially set up my sub, I painstakingly followed Jim Smiths advice (Better Sound), and that worked pretty well. I found however that taking just 2 seconds to install the GC on my sub was the preverbal icing on the cake that pulled everything together. These GCs are pretty amazing.
Raks, Take the other RCA and plug it into your preamp input or output jacks if possible. Then, if your CD player has an additional analog output, try it in that position. If you are using an outboard DAC you will be surprised at how the CD player sounds with an RCA GC installed, compared to the DAC.
Bud, I just removed the RCA Ground Controls from my system and the bass and overall sound quality seemed to improve. I still kept the spade Ground Controls at the speaker and Amp ends.
Is it possible that I had too much of the Ground Control? Or perhaps there is a need to remove them for a period of time every so often?
Well, I know you had quite a few in the system, so it is quite possible you had too many. I would let the system play for a number of hours to completely discharge and then try just one location in addition to the speakers again.
You could just as easily be hearing change as a better thing, for more of them or less of them. Very easy to get caught in that loop.
My system hasn't changed notably for quite a while. I do periodically unplug and replug all connections though, so it is entirely possible that is enough interruption and you do actually need a short system down time. We all are exploring this territory, no actual rules other than no more than two per individual component and none hooked to a digital SPDIF RCA plug, or any other unbuffered digital ground connection, ever.
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