Ozzy, which version of the GC on the LCD did you use and what were your observations of adding it? I just ordered a full complement of the reference GC's for my speakers to begin checking out the benefits. I ordered the banana versions as my spades are rather large to begin with and I dislike stacking spades on speaker terminals.
Has anyone tried an RCA GC on their powered subwoofer(s)? I have two JL Audio Fathom F113's I would also wonder if adding them to would benefit in the bass arena?
Many thanks. Just beginning my foray into the GC world...
Richard |
Ozzy, great. Thanks! I would say one crisis at a time (i.e. on GC on one thing at a time for the great experiment). My speakers GC's are supposed to arrive tonight so this may be interesting. I wish they had come on Friday so I could have really played with them on Sat. night with the HT going gangbusters, but tonight should give me some ideas. Thanks so much for your kind support.
I would be most curious about a GC on a JL 113. Having two would be interesting. I have also read time and again using RCA GC's on front end equipment using one of each is the way to go (ref and standard). I just hope these don't squash the sound stage. In talking to some folks with a system similar to mine they did not experience the squashed soundstage with the ref series on the speakers. crossing my fingers...
Best,
Odd |
Ozzy, got the ref banana's yesterday. These are a mother to install... tight as heck. But, after 2 hours of burn in they seem to definitely improve the soundield and as of my initial review so far do not seem to limit sound field or dynamics. But, this is preliminary at this point. I will do a full on test on Friday night when I have time to spend with full blu-ray hi def, etc. However, I did note cleaner, more detailed mids and high end in the short time I spent with them last night, and on a movie I watched on USA channel - Shoot 'Em Up, a fun flick for disbelief, but a blast to watch (I caught the tail end), I was surprised by the additional, what seemed to me to be, presence in the soundtrack even on compressed cable HD feed for Dolby Digital. The end title hard metal soundtrack came through with much more shear balls than the last time I watched this on the same channel a week or two ago, and had more instrumental separation. Suprised me. Then, I had to hit the hay for today's early start into the office.
Question on the LCD - have you tried both at the same time?
Thanks, Ozzy.
Best,
Odd |
Thanks Ozzy. One thing I don't really need in my system is sound stage increase at least in width as it is wall to wall now. If it increased further it might diffuse the sound stage too much. I may try a set of the standard GC's here down the road for the amp end to see how that works.
How did the Cary Pro 306 work out using both ref and standard RCA GC's on it? |
Agreed. Something I plan on in the upcoming months. Over the past 3 days my reference GC's on my speakers (I had to obtain 4.5 pairs since I bi-wire and bi-amp my main front and rear speakers) have continued to improve and now have pintpoint clear clean imaging that has blown me away so far. I plan on doing some critical listening on well known material this weekend. For now, I have heard some things that are striking and very welcome. No negative affects at all. All positive. When was the last time you picked up a tweak that was all positive??!!
In my set up there was no question the addition of the second GC for the woofers on the main speakers added to the improvement. I have heard of some folks with mixed results - some feeling not needed while others agree with what I am hearing there was a discontinuity between the frequencies near the crossover where it was clearly audible what had been improved on the upper drivers vs. the woofers. Adding the additional reference GC to the woofers and voila'! Almost instant improvement.
So far, so good and color me happy. More to follow of course as I get a chance to really listen to some well known material compared to what I have had time to deal with so far the past few nights.
I do feel there is additional improvement over time beyond the one hour break in, however. At least to me last night seemed somewhat smoother, more detailed and relexed even over what I heard the second night (night before).
So far, well done Audio Prism! |
I tried the EVS and they did not work anywhere near as effectively as the reference GC's I have on my speakers, now. I am, so far, the only one to have a not-so-positive situation with the EVS GE's. That means nothing, though, to anyone else, as everything with either the EVS or AP is system dependent. I am only reporting so folks can get a balanced idea, not to knock any of the designs between the two mfrs.
So far, the AP ref GC's on all of my speakers has provided an immensely satisfying experience with immensely focused sound stage, wide open, clean, clear and removal of haze/grunge so much so that it is startling at times.
Note, too, I recently added the superb Walker Reference Plus HDL's to my speakers along with the AP reference GC's. These definitely work synergistically/cumulatively as they work in a totally different fashion in the application. With both, the noise floor just dropped into total blackness, speakers completely gone in my room, left with a super clean, clear multi channel image without any glaze, grunge or high frequency glare. I was, frankly, totally amazed. What I previously thought was a totally clean, hash/grain free background I found was not at all. Not until I finally added the Walker Audio's to the equation along with the AP GC's. I still have to add a set of the Walkers to the woofers in the bi-wire and bi-amp application on 4 speakers later this week. I am told that it is a suprising difference where one would not expect a change but is rather large in terms of bass definition, speed and dynamics as well. I am looking forward to that soon.
I just ordered as standard set of GC's for my amp and receiver amp outputs to see how they balance with the refs on my speakers. This should be interesting.
What this all proves is these doggoned things are immensely system dependent. Some folks found no change with the AP but found large changes with the EVS. Others, with both. Mine, no go on the EVS but AP is two thumbs up. This proves Bud's point that you really need to try them and see how they will work in differing places in your system.
Odd |
As a note, this last week, I obtained several samples of the GE from EVS and installed them into my system. Previously, I have been using the reference GC on both the low freq and mid/high freq posts on my 4 main speakers along with Walker Audio Reference Plus HDL's in my HT and one on my center speaker (note - as of this writing, my CC does not have the ref GC on it pending receipt of some Cardas banana adaptors to allow for its reinstallation as I also have Walker Audio Reference Plus HDL's on this and can not fit all of them on the CC posts at present. I hope to have the Cardas adaptors tomorrow evening to reinstall the ref GC along with the HDL).
The results were extremely impressive with the ref GC on my system. No image truncation in any plane. In fact, it remained static in size from before installation but the image specificity, clarity, removal of grunge, grit and grain, dynamic color, instrumental color, vividness and "you are there in the room with the action/music/musicions" was incredibly precise in any plane horizontal and vertical providing an immensely satisfying sonic result to film and BD audio high def discs.
Late last week, I received a set of the competitor models and hooked them in place of my ref GC's on my speakers after removing the ref GC's. I also hooked them on my amp outputs. Immediately, I was not happy with the results at all. The remaining superb benefits of the Walker HDL's remained but suddenly I lost all image precision I had enjoyed, a haze and grit ensued as if a blanket had been thrown over the soundfield and it became diffuse. After two days of installation to break in, not much changed.
Later, I found out my amp has floating outputs, not negative grounded so I removed them from the amp. Things improved a great deal and almost all of the grit/grain'haze disappeared but some haze and diffuse imaging remained. I lost the incredible spotlighting localization the ref GC's provided. It was as if someone turned out the lights on the system and I was in the dark, to a greater degree, again. Out went the competitor GE's and back in the ref GC's went.
Bang! Everything I found absolutely entrancing with the Walker Audio Reference Plus HDL's + ref GC's returned. I realized I can not live without this combination ever again.
I should note that I will be installing the Walker Audio Ref + HDL's on the woofer posts of the 4 main speakers tomorrow night along with the currently employed reference GC's and fully expect an improvement over what I have gained now, according to what I have read from W/A and others that use the HDL's in bi-wire/bi-amp applications. The bass is enhanced where one would not expect so in cleaning up ultrasonic garbage entering the speaker cables. This should prove most interesting as I am extremely happy so far.
I have ordered some standard GC RCA's for my amp RCA unused inputs and one for my reference HT receiver to see how they work on that end. I did note the competitor model GE's did NOT increase my soundstage further from the reference GC's, it remained static in size, nor did the GE's truncate the soundstage, either.
I understand I am somewhat of an anomaly so far in the competitor models. Please note that I did not find them, after they broke in my my speakers after about 36 hours or more, to be bad per se. And, if I probably had heard them without trying the ref GC's I would have found their improvement, over the system without them, to be very positive. It is just once I have had the immense pleasure of the reference GC's on my speakers they are, for my system and my listening sensibilities, the sin quo non with the Walker Audio's in tandem. There is, on my system, a synergistic and cumulative relationship that is most desireable and immensely satisfying, as of today.
Lastly, let me restate - this is my system and my results. They may very well be very different from the improvement other systems may provide. So, this is in no way a negative review or consideration of either product. I just want to be clear they were good, very good, in their own right.
Best to all,
Odd |
Ozzy,
Yeah, I had the ref GC's on my speakers a pair per speaker for bi-wire and bi-amp prior to insalling my first walkers on the upper posts. Loved 'em. Added the walkers on the upper posts and - wow. then, just added the walkers on the bass posts on wed night. they are breaking in now. Initially, whole system went totally dark and lacking definition. Typical of the first insert of the walkers as I experienced the same thing until after a few hours when they began to break in. Now, lightening and tightening up by the hour. I am immensely satisfied and still have at least 10 hours to go for the walkers to break in (total min 20 hours according to Walker). I just ordered some standard RCA's for this weekend which should arrive by tomorrow I am guessing. Should be interesting to add to amp/receiver/preamp areas one at a time once the walkers break in.
You are 100% correct these things are so system dependent. I did not have quite the glare you speak of with the refs, but I did with the EVS ones which are going back to Ric today via UPS. They created an immense glare at first for about 2 days on my systme then settled down but were fuzzy sounding compared tot he ultimate clarity I received with the ref GC's on my speakers.
This is an abject lesson to all reading - you gotta try these in all types and places to see how they work on your system. Everyone will be different.
Enjoy, Ozzy. Have fun. |
Tvad,
I had a similar effect with my EVS as well. Mine sounded bright and grainy compared to my AP's. Bud is absolutely correct on the permutations with the AP versions as I heard this effect clearly Friday night and Saturday after installing my next set of AP's. I bought 3 standard RCA's to place on my unused amp inputs, reference HT receiver and found they did just that. Now, they have stabalized. I have placed an order for 3 ref RCA's and 2 more standard RCA's to play with adding in tandem to my receiver to add some detail that seemed to spread out and also to my preamp and go from there. |
Bud, how many cycles do you believe it takes to stabalize? I seem to get the final settle in around the 3rd day or so. 6 moons seemed to have the same effect, around 72 hours or so.
Odd |
Bud,
I think I still heard some additional changes to the last set of RCA's I added last Friday night, last evening when I came back to the system. Sounded bigger/larger fuller sound stage again last night. Huge and open in fact, as in real life. Frankly, scary good. I still have to work on adding ref RCA's and standard RCA's to my preamp and BD player as well as PS Audio PWD DAC to see how those go. I have on order a couple that came in to you that were shipped yesterday but Galen should be sending you another order today as there was a mistake in quantity of the ref and standard RCA's as I needed one more of each. I want a full, final, complement on hand to review and determine in/out finally makes it all work otherwise its hit/miss with taking some out to move to another location as there could have been an additional synergistic approach I might have been missing.
It seems in my system adding ref/standard to each component improves the large, full sound stage presentation preserving the detail with the reference GC on the same component. I hope that holds true for the final assault for the last order coming through I hope you could ship today to come on Thursday or so, so I can begin to make some final judgements this weekend. Anyway, these are really superb devices and do fly in the face of reason (For those non-technical folk out there like myself). But they are just becoming "I can no longer live without" devices along with my Walker Audio Reference + HDL's that just makes such a huge difference it is quite shocking and amazing. Your original versions work so much better, for me at least, than the competitor model it was quite a surprise. They all worked to one degree or another, but not to the degree the reference/standard combination has for my system.
Thanks, Bud! |
Vett,
I have quite a bit of Rick Cullen Modified PS Audio equipment, the PCA2/HCPS preamp, GCA500, two separate power plant premier power plants, one for analog, one for digital, several duet conditioners in various places, all PS Audio premier SC silver/copper power cords throughout, silver IC and speaker cabling, Pioner SC-09TX reference surround receiver, Pioneer BDP-09 Blu Player, PS Audio PWT and PWD Digital playback system, all silver HDMI cabling, two JL Audio F113 subs, Pioneer KURO Pro151 60" plasma, 4 Swan 6.1 speakers, C3 center, all equipment on Aurios Pro isolation bearings. Alternately, I have a MESA Engineering Baron tube amplifer. Lastly, I have Walker Audio Reference Plus HDL'S on all speakers. Front L/R speakers are bi-wired, back speakers bi-amped.
I have the GC's standard and reference RCA on my preamp/SC-09, standard RCA's on my inputs to my amp, and reference GC's on all speakers. I am awaiting a shipment of one ref RCA and one regular RCA to place on both my PWD and BDP-09 alternately, for now and see how it goes. The last set of RCA's are burning in now on the SC-09 and preamp and should be settled in by this weekend sometime.
My personal results have been that Bud's version worked much better for me in tandem than did EVS version. But, that is just my system. I understand many others have used the EVS to great improvement. I will post more once the most recent RCA's settle and I get a good handle on the final results + playing around with them in/out. |
Scottmac,
Let them settle in for a while. Bud says several hours. In my system I hear changes in sound stage, image tightness, to bloom, then tightness then settle + changes in harmonics over a period of several days. Typically, so far, the improvement was in my system most seen on the 4th day. I hear no decrease in harmonic richness with the ref versions. In fact, the instrumental color is superb. I did note, in mine, so far, that using the standard and ref models in each component yields the best results. Remember, that is my system, and each varies. The harmonic warmth is retained as well as a purity and open, detailing that is really superb. Images are tight, spot on and in surround that is intriguing to me. Remember, though, as of now I still have several days for the last set to settle in for final judgment and determination of sonic changes. While I am watching TV in surround right now I hear the sound altering a lot and sound staging as they settle in per Bud's comments on their "cycling". I should have a good handle on them by Sunday night.
odd |
Ozzy is absolutely right. I am using both the ref and standard on one of my inputs to my SC-09 receiver in my HT section on one of the 7.1 analog input sections. I use all digital input to the receiver so any would do fine.
I have not experienced the elevation in upper mids Ozzy has, just an extension of the extreme top end which opens up the sound immensely with low level details which are extraordinary. The upper mids are as warm and flat as ever. Same with sound stage. Mine did not decrease at all. Remained open, huge and deep on musical presentations and for movie tracks it opens up the sound to a huge open sound field from top to bottom. Remember, though, I use the Walker Audio Reference + HDL's on all my speakers which could alter results from what others have found. The Walkers and AP's work synergistic and on different levels. I am not the only one reporting the use of both together to super results. So, I may be a bit of anomaly that needs to be kept in mind here.
Odd |
Scottmac,
Yes, I have both a standard and refereence RCA on my Pioneer Elite SC-09TX. I use a very expensive silver HDMI cable made by PS Audio which is the finest sounding, and looking, HDMI cable I have found so far. It absolutely walks on any copper and silver clad copper HDMI I have tried so far. Not even close. It was originally designed by PS Audio to carry hi resolution data between their PWT and PWD transport and DAC in a true I2S transmission with all data carried separately. In my PWT/PWD it is immediate and obvious the difference in sound quality, so I tried it on my Pioneer BDP-09 - SC-09 connection and was amazed at how much more detail and better imaging/balance, detail, depth, dynamic capability the sound became on hi -res lossless movie tracks. then, on to the video end where I eventually added one for the BDP-09 to the Pioneer Elite Kuro Pro-151 plasma display, and there they have all stayed, except for cleaning the connections periodically, for about 1.5 years now.
Anyway, I noted an improvement in the 5.2 channel set up when adding them initially to the SC-09 receiver but caution they are not broken in yet. I have had them only in now for about 48 hours and it takes at least another 2 days before they will finally settle. Last evening, the sound did just what Bud states - initial pleasing sonic improvement, then dull/narrow, then wide/bright, then back and forth and I could easily hear this going on while using the system. It is freaky to note that. However, I expect to hear them finally settle by sometime on Sunday which is the norm. We'll go from there for the final notation on how they work in that format.
Also, I have a set breaking in on my two channel preamp which is also integrated into the HT system and should be fully broken in by then to know what happens when any of them are removed, inserted again, etc. The good thing about the RCA versions is they can be quickly removed and replaced for immediate, and obvious, noted changes. I have noted already, however, the bass is deeper, and when they are not breathing in and out, for the short time they appear to settle the sound can become quite organic and the top end is also much extended.
I would suggest you try the Walker Audio HDL's. If you are having problems especially with your CC speaker, try adding the walkers. They extremely effectively remove all ultrasonic EMI/RFI from the system. Believe me, I had no clue this was even effecting my system until I added them. Immediately a huge amount of heretofore unknown grain and crap was infecting my system and now stripped away providing a very sweet, warm and smooth/natural sound. Performances moved literally into my room and moved me directly to the studio when called for or auditorium. Superb. Movie sound tracks take on an al new "you are there" sound. Combining the two is quite an experience when I had the AP reference GCs' on my speakers alone and then added the walkers along with them. Never heard it sound better and more consistent from early morning, day and night time use.
Enjoy! |
Scottmac,
Give the GC time to settle and break in on the receiver. I have both versions on mine and the sound stage is quite large to say the least and detailed exquisitely. Yes, the HDL's are not the cheapest thing on the street but like the GC they are indespensable and when you have them on and break in you will never want to be without them. If you don't biwire or biamp its not too bad and I did get them through a dealer if you pm me I will advise you of to contact to discuss options.
The Reference Plus is much better than the Mark III, both my dealer advised (who I trust absolutely) and Lloyd Walker. They do add an additional dimensional benefit the Mark III does not, I am advised. I went for all matched for my system. They are matched super tight, use silver capacitors and parts that are all "nude" internally, then cryo'ed in a specific process, etc. There is I am advised a 10-15% mortality rate in production due to the extremely difficult parts to work with. As I said, I am completely in love with them, though, along with Bud's GC's. Staple in my system.
Give the GC in your receiver time to settle. The standard GC should provide for an enlargement and detachment better from the speakers in your 5.1 presentation when settled in. I think actually on a receiver and source without a true third ground structure they show a larger improvement, at least I thought so, over time. Mine are on their final settle in process this week and will know more this weekend for final determination but I was enraptured this last weekend with a few movies I knew well before adding in the final set of RCA GC's to the system and what I heard was extremely promising and delightful.
Enjoy and take care!
Odd |
Scottmac,
Gee thanks... here we go for round four of ordering more GC's... Ha, ha! Yup, looks like I will have to add those to my remaining GC list for the cable and also now considering them on the subwoofers. I am considering the standard RCA's for both subs and the cable box. I have "heard" from some guys adding them to a hi def panel also improves the panel display. One step at a time, so now appears I will have to add to the cable. I have an email in to Bud asking about considerations for the subs.
Enjoy! |
According to my dealer, when I bought the Walker Reference + HDL's, the Detail Magnifiers sounded about the level of the older Walker mark II design. The current Walker Reference + model has far better parts and construction, triple processed cryo treatments, etc.
The Walkers along with the GC's are simply revelatory in my system. I have never heard it sound like it does now. Finally, it sounds like the many thousands I have invested in it should make it sound.
I would try both. With 30 day return privilege, it is worth the cost to try both out. |
The biggest difference is in the slight details. The DM's are about on par with the older Walker Mk II HDL version in total improvement from what I have been able to determine. The reference + would add maybe 5% improvement. If you are into the last word in improvement then the Walker Ref + is the deal. They are triple cryo'ed at each stage and use a proprietary RC network with all silver parts. the DM uses much lower quality parts in comparison. All Walker parts are also nude components. This all adds to a next level degree of improvement. The difference would be in the subtleties of the presentation.
It is indeed interesting to hear what the CG's do with each system. I have yet to experience the soundstage shrinkage others have with the ref GC on source components. Using both together works in a synergisic approach in mine. Interesting. Using them in tandem on my ref BD player was really amazing and seemed to take the video as well to the next level of HD picture. A tad more detail and depth/dimensionality to the picture. Sweet.
Not everyone is interested in squeezing the last bit of difference i their system. DM's would work well for 95% of audiophiles in conjunction with everything else. I am not saying anything negative they are anything less than revelatory to anyone nor am I attempting to knock them, at all. Everyone has their own cup of tea they like, right? I was interested in the last word I could achieve in my system so the difference was worth it. I did not have positive sonic impressions with earlier versions of the caps they use in the MD so that kind of turned me off to the idea. Earlier versions of those caps sounded muffled in my system, so when I saw that it wasn't as much a possible component to me. The all proprietary silver nude caps used in the Walkers were the last word. At least, until they come up with the Reference plus, plus. Ha, ha. |
I am using the walkers (two) on each speaker. One for the bass, one for the mids/high posts and one for the center channel. Using Ref and standard GC on the BD player output with superb results.
The Detail Magnifiers I have seen with the higher grade parts are still nowhere near the level of the walker reference + components, construction or triple cryo process.
Best,
Odd |
