Did Amir Change Your Mind About Anything?

@amir_asr : On cables. Thank you for answering my question. Case closed. People can figure out for themselves 

My pleasure.  And many have... sold their fancy cables, switched to generic and happier for it.  More money for music and other good things in life.  You are really underestimating the difference we have made in the mindset of audiophiles with these comprehensive reviews of such tweaks.  Folks are learning and it is accelerating, knock on wood.

Believe it or not, I read your “review” of the Iconoclast cables, and the subsequent exchange of you with Galen. Which I am certain you cut him off. No fuss, your site your rules.

I more than welcome manufacturers to comment.  You are out of line anyway as Galen never joined the forum to be cut off.  He emailed me his response and I post it verbatim in the review thread.  There was nothing else from him to post.  Go and ask him and then make claims like this. 

In this case someone without engineering background to understand why Ethan has to turn a pot every time he changes cables on his null tester.  Or why there is residual noise "if there is no difference."  Do you fall in this category?

Good point! I will point this out to the boss. If he is still alive and kicking ass. No worries. He has a good disciple to fight the good fight for 20+ years. Long and healthy life to you

@amir_asr : On cables. Thank you for answering my question. Case closed. People can figure out for themselves 

Care to elaborate: what is the “average audiophile”?

In this case someone without engineering background to understand why Ethan has to turn a pot every time he changes cables on his null tester.  Or why there is residual noise "if there is no difference."  Do you fall in this category?

Sure! What low-end cables do YOU recommend?

For USB-A to -B I recommend Amazon Basics.  They are cheap but flexible and have been ultra reliable.  I am able to get state of the art measurements using them.

For RCA cables, I also like the 6 foot Amazon cable as a bargain choice.  But there are many others such as WBC.  I avoid the super generic ones as the connectors are so thin that the get loose after a bit.  

For power cables, I use what comes with my gear.  I do have a $99 Audioquest one that I have started to use recently because it is flexible and has a lower resistance than some of the thin AC cords.  It hasn't made any difference in any measurement (or sound) but I have it so I use it.

For XLR cables, I use Mogami Gold.  They are a bit pricey but incredibly reliable.  I have bought generic stuff and while they have identical performance, after a few plug/unplug, their solder connections often break.

For speaker cables, I use whatever.  For testing though, I like a flexible one so use high-strand count silicone cables.  These things are superb in how flexible they are (even when cold) and their strands are wonderful to work with whether you crimp or solder.  They are relatively expensive though so I don't bother to use them for long runs of speaker cables.

S/PDIF cables can make a measurable difference due to impedance mismatches but nothing remotely close to audible.  It is best to get an impedance matched one if you just want that comfort.

For optical cable, I think the one I have I bought years ago from Monster (?).

HDMI cables cables can be tricky at higher speeds (>4K).  Try to keep them as short as possible.  But for audio, they make no difference.

BTW, I have a few high-end cables from Transparent, Monster, etc. which I don't use.

I think this is it.

No.  Just hard for average audiophile to understand. 

Care to elaborate: what is the “average audiophile”?

Are you saying Ethan’s Null Tester device was flawed?

No.  Just hard for average audiophile to understand.  For anyone with understanding of what it did, it was great.  But those were not the people who needed convincing....

But yes, both tests show that high-end cables don’t make an audible difference.

Sure! What low-end cables do YOU recommend?

It works in digital domain so doesn't have noise or adjustment issues that Ethan's hardware null tester has. 

Are you saying Ethan’s Null Tester device was flawed?

@amir_asr between this and the 5128 discussion you must be drinking coffee and wearing a diaper.

You really can't take any criticism. You are spending so much time on this. And yes that post about only revel products does call your ethics into question. 

Show me where you promote other products you don't rep. Also you never answered why Erin's video for speakers was taken down but other top videos were not. 

The Null Tester was invented a long time ago by Ethan Winer. Not you.

What?  Null testers were "invented" before Ethan and I were born!  Neither he, nor I have remotely said about inventing one.  Ethan built a hardware null tester to show cables don't make an audible difference which I promoted on ASR as it was very good work. 

My test relies on an incredible software tool built by member pkane on ASR called Deltawave.  It works in digital domain so doesn't have noise or adjustment issues that Ethan's hardware null tester has.  For this reason, it can show a far more perfect null.  

But yes, both tests show that high-end cables don't make an audible difference.

@mapman ?

 

thyname

2,932 posts

07-08-2023 at 08:59pm 

@mapman : what is Amir selling in Audiogon? I fail to see any Amir’s items for sale on his profile. Zero items sold either. Do you care to elaborate on your statement ?

 

https://www.audiogon.com/users/amir_asr

Audiogon is a business that makes money by enabling sales.

Please explain to me: how does Audiogon make money out of this? Other from deflection of Audiogon users to ASR ( Amir’s own website Amir Science Review). Are you implying Amir is paying Audiogon (under the table) to post here promoting his site? 

I see Amir has created a thread on ASR that there is a 25% off deal on Revel Be products.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/revel-be-series-discounted-by-25.46219/

And what is one brand Amir’s company - Madrona Digital - sells? You guessed it! Revel products

I post that since membership has interest in the line and wants to know about the discount.  There was zero call to action to come buy anything from Madrona whose business is anything but selling retail ( we have no showroom, no stock, nothing).  I was also clear that people need to buy from their local dealers:

ta240 said:

I know they will definitely order them for me and maybe even with less overhead give me a good deal. But I like looking/listening to things in person before I buy.

I hope anyone who does that, proceeds and buys it from the same dealer. It would be quite improper to then go and buy it discounted online or whatever.

Occasionally someone contacts me to get Revel speakers for them at a discount.   Half the time they go and get it from someone else after that which is fine with me.  I provide this option for people but at no time advertise it or promote it on the forum.  If I really wanted to sell something, I would have put a link on top saying come here to buy this and that.  But you see none of that whatsoever.

These arguments have no legs anyway.  The last thing I want to do is to be an audio salesman.  So I suggest not projecting.  I am not you.  I am not motivated by a few dollars like this as to put in doubt the ethics of what I do.

@amir_asr Amazing how @j_livingston points out a thread you created to promote products you sell and are a dealer for, but this is not a way to promote a product and how does it increase the science of your website. You are full of it. 

@soundfield you folded quickly. I thought you were standing up to Amir? 

Amir can use this thread to promote his bs all he wants, but I think the true believers see two sides to this. Can't wait to see 1,000 posts.

And cheap Topping DACs sound great because they measure that way. 

Oh, tens of thousands of your fellow audiophiles disagree with you.  We all use them and enjoy the incredible transparency they bring to our music enjoyment.

And as you acknowledge, the are available at ridiculously low cost compared to what high-end companies charge for their DACs that are often distortion and noise factories.

Maggies sound terrible according to the measurements. 

I assume you mean Magnepan LRS and not the entire line as I have only reviewed that.  Assuming you do mean the LRS, there were clear audible issues as well to my ears:

Subjective Speaker Listening Tests
I first positioned the panel right at me and started to play. What I heard sounded like it was coming from a deep well! I then dropped the little rings on the stand and repositioned the speaker as you see in the picture (less toed in). That made a big difference and for a few clips I enjoyed decent sound. Then I played something with bass and it was as if the speaker was drowned under water again. It wasn't just absence of deep bass but rather, quietness on top of that.

Even when the speaker sounded "good" you would hear these spatial and level shifts that was really strange. As the singers voice changed tonality, it would sometimes shift left and right. And change in level no doubt due to uneven frequency response. There was also some strange extended tail to some high frequency notes that would seem to go on forever.

Just when I thought I had the speaker dialed in, I leaned back some and the tonality got destroyed. You had to sit in the proverbial vice around your head to get the "right" sound out of LRS.

I applied a quick and dirty inverse fix to the response to get some semblance of neutrality:

The one PEQ shown, combined with an overall lift of the entire response made a huge difference. Speaker was no longer dull, lacking both bass and treble. Alas, after listening some, the highs got to me so I put in the right filter to fix that. And while the LRS could handle the boost in low frequencies well, bringing for the first time some tactile feedback, it did start to bottom out so I had to put that sharp filter for extreme lows.

Once there, I was kind of happy until I played the soundtrack you see at the bottom. Man did it sound horrid. Bland and some of the worse bass I have heard.

When it did sound good -- which was on typical show audiophile tracks -- the experience was good. Alas, every track would sound similar with the same height and spatial effects.

This is a highly specialized speaker that has poor general purpose.  People fall in love with its spatial qualities due to dipole design and tall image it provides.  So not surprised you speak as if it is perfect.  But perfect it is not.  Not remotely so.

@ossicle2brain : I can try to help. What Maggies do you own? What’s the rest of your equipment? What are you looking to replace?

Please post your current system here: https://www.audiogon.com/systems

I love to help you. I will only pick from Amir’s approved lists. No cables will be considered 

Galen Gareis, formerly head of design for Belden offers many technical specs and reasons why he designed his Iconoclast cables, and offers specs on each cable that ships.  

Specs that have nothing to do with audio performance.  They are nice people with good intentions so lent me review samples (after I tried to buy them).  Here is the review of the iconoclast cable where I showed not only with measurements that the cable does nothing compared to a generic one, but also with a null test of music: 

As you see, the null shows nothing but noise at threshold of hearing (which is the limit of the test).  The files and null output are there to listen to.

Net, net, please don't be impressed by fancy looking "specs."  If you trust your ears, ask the manufacturer for ears-only controlled listening test results.  If you are in favor of measurements, ask them for measurements of the output of the audio device, NOT the cable/tweak.  If that doesn't change, then the cable is not doing anything extra for the 10 to 20X more money you spent on it.

So after all this we find that measurements are pretty useless for telling us how something will sound. So going to ASR to judge HI FI products is pretty useless. 

 Maggies sound terrible according to the measurements.  And cheap Topping DACs sound great because they measure that way.  And measuring before listening is the way to really hear.  How can one know to what to hear before seeing the specs.

Thank you Amir.  I've learned a lot. 

@mapman : what is Amir selling in Audiogon? I fail to see any Amir’s items for sale on his profile. Zero items sold either. Do you care to elaborate on your statement ?

https://www.audiogon.com/users/amir_asr

Audiogon is a business that makes money by enabling sales.

Please explain to me: how does Audiogon make money out of this? Other from deflection of Audiogon users to ASR ( Amir’s own website Amir Science Review). Are you implying Amir is paying Audiogon (under the table) to post here promoting his site? 

@thyname I make no money posting. But many here do. They have products and services to sell and there are no forum rules against vendors posting here. But. Audiogon is a business that makes money by enabling sales. I’d surmise the forum is deemed a positive tool towards that end by allowing people to discuss things related to the things sold.  Amir’s site is one of many resources buyers have at their disposal to help make better informed decisions.  

@mapman : I make zero money by posting here. Are you not the same? 

It’s ok to make money if you are offering a service or product of value. That’s determined by the masses not any single handful of detractors.

It’s OK to not like someone. That’s a personal choice, but by posting here realize one is serving the purpose of providing free publicity. Not the first time someone has come here to help make a buck. In fact that’s what this site is for! The forum exists solely for that purpose.  I have no problem with it as long as the vendor is reasonably transparent and honest about why they are here.   Not always the case!

It's profitable to be controversial. 

I just shake my head in disbelief at how he continues to behave and show his frail ego so publicly. It’s pathetic and sickening at the same time.

Yup! Spot on. As they say, follow the money. And again as they say,” it’s the money you moron”.

I see Amir has created a thread on ASR that there is a 25% off deal on Revel Be products.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/revel-be-series-discounted-by-25.46219/

And what is one brand Amir’s company - Madrona Digital - sells? You guessed it! Revel products. But didn’t Amir say he doesn’t monetize ASR in any way (pssst... let’s ignore memberships and patreon)? Oh, fret not, he doesn’t make any money off that. And trust him, no one calls his business wanting to buy Revel speakers because they focus on custom integration and no one really buys speakers from him. So there’s zero conflict of interest there. Right? Right?

I would laugh, truly, if it weren’t so clearly hypocritical and obvious to anyone with half a brain that Amir espouses behavior that he himself condemns.

Edit: As I said earlier, I don’t begrudge anyone making money as long as they are honest with their audience (or in Amir’s case, honest with themselves). Amir will say he makes a comment on all his reviews that his company sells Revel and that’s all the disclaimer he needs. I agree. But he chastises every single other reviewer who does essentially the same (i.e., advertising, YouTube monetization, affiliate links which are labeled clearly, etc). Amir sells many brands. He is no different than anyone else (who puts a disclaimer on their site or review or otherwise are transparent about monetization). Absolutely no different. He somehow thinks he is, though. That’s scary.

Even more timely:

I see something similar that has happened to his other targets happening right now with some of the headphone guys where Amir, in typical Amir fashion, is going out of his way to subvert their efforts and calling into question not just their measurements but even their integrity. How people don’t see this for what it is, a means to control the narrative in his favor, is truly baffling to me. How Amir chooses to see everyone as a competitor to him rather than letting discussion flow is also baffling. Can’t have anyone favoring another reviewer over Amir now can we?

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/resolves-b-k-5128-headphone-target-you-can-try-the-eqs.43209/page-34

I just shake my head in disbelief at how he continues to behave and show his frail ego so publicly. It’s pathetic and sickening at the same time.

mapman

21,131 posts

07-08-2023 at 07:52pm 

What exactly are we arguing about again? 

Nothing. Just the ASR propaganda. Read my question I posted above:

I wonder, if ASR website (Amir Science Review) was so popular, beating every single audio forum & site, including Stereophile, by multiple TIMES, why the owner of that site, the honorable Amir His Majesty, spend so much time here? 50 posts so far on this thread alone in a few days. Daily. Even in weekends. And very long elaborate posts. Nobody wonders why so many men hours that can be spent measuring stuff, and posting in the website he owns? 🤔 

 

Think!

Oh:

Maybe Amir’s site has more to offer.  I’ll have to check it out more often. 

Please… let’s not be ridiculous 

Good evening...

"I think it’s pretty pointless to argue against use of measurements to establish what is good sound reproduction. Note that good sound reproduction is different than good sound. One is objective the other subjective.

It’s also true that metrics alone do not tell the whole story. They are capable of getting things right but are often applied incorrectly or incompletely. It’s worth arguing that case by case but not that metrics are always the whole story or that they are of no value. It’s really not so complicated to understand. I find much of the content of this thread pretty useless. Maybe Amir’s site has more to offer. I’ll have to check it out more often."

Yes, correct, what virtually everyone agrees about.

The problem with this thread is due to one person. mahgister

mahgister ..... JUST STOP. Your neurotic verbosity is a drag. I along with nearly everyone else here ignores it.  

You are spamming this thread and site with endless BS that no one has the patience for. Go take a walk.  Get some fresh air. Learn about being concise.

Sorry dude but sometimes we all need some tough love.

@mahgister : can you please ask me what you want with one phrase?

You quoted me with a bunch of bombastic statements.

I think I was pretty concise on what I asked from you. If you want me to summarize with one word, here it is: stop

Anybody who can read can think for himself...

Anybody can read the articles i proposed... 10 articles at least..

Anybody can be respectful even in disagrement... I dont think that ASR is useless on the opposite there is there many interesting discussions...But i cannot imagine because i prefer human relation to discuss only measures... 😊 But Floyd toole had an interesting discussion on ASR and i think Dr. Choueri too...

Anybody can know and think by himself why we cannot predict all aspects of sound qualities and design ONLY by linear set of measures... Good design dont equate superior sound qualities..

Thats all ...

i say it i will repeat...I dont focus on gear as subjectivist or objectivist... I focus on acoustic and psycho-acoustic ...And here subjectivity and measures complement and are inseparable from each other.. . Gear is secondary in audio , acoustic and psycho-acoustic is fundamental... it is my opinion... audio industry is now a mature industry, pure science matter more than ever... basic technology has passed a minimal threshold of quality...

@mahgister : I understand why Amir is doing this but I totally fail to understand why YOU keep doing this. You must know this is simply another platform for Amir’s propaganda. Please stop. And if you ever wander whether you can beat Amir in audio arguments in audio forums and audio social media (and I am not saying audio truths), you are mistaken. You cannot. He invented them

What exactly are we arguing about again? 

@mahgister : I understand why Amir is doing this but I totally fail to understand why YOU keep doing this. You must know this is simply another platform for Amir’s propaganda. Please stop. And if you ever wander whether you can beat Amir in audio arguments in audio forums and audio social media (and I am not saying audio truths), you are mistaken. You cannot. He invented them

Very good point... it is one of the reason i like my headphone, i felt the bass with my body by bones resonance... I never felt that before with headphone..

Btw extended bass is mostly felt not heard.

Note that good sound reproduction is different than good sound. One is objective the other subjective.

Good point and simply put...

I find much of the content of this thread pretty useless.

My posts may be useless but not the articles i recommended sorry... it is a counterpoint to some Amir claims about hearing theory and listenings illusions and/or power...

Btw extended bass is mostly felt not heard. 

What interest me philosophically , and very much so, is the ecological theory of hearing...

This is very deep...

i know being technologically inclined, that it will not interest you... You will perceive it as "mere philosophy"...

But the reason why Magnasco and Oppenheim claim that this is one interesting road to go, is simple: we cannot asssign the reality of sound phenonmenon only to the computerized model of the brain... The history of evolution put real vibrating sound sources at the center of our survival , socially by the importance of speech/music  perception , and individually by the importance of natural sound perception...

This nature training of our species was a hearing training , and it is the reason why our ears/brain dont work as a computer algorythm reconstructing sound qualities of real physical sound sources by calculus of the elementary abstrast factors from The Fourier theory : frequencies, amplitude, phase, duration... our ears works not in a time independant dimension as our mathematic but in a time dependant DIRECTIOn where we were trained to hear natural and speech/musical sound qualities and natural sounds... Our survival depend for example of the way the tapping on a fruit indicate that the fruit is ripe or not...The sound quality here is OBJECTIVE information... And it is a subjective pleasurable impression.. and it is directly perceived as a WHOLE... 

I think it’s pretty pointless to argue against use of measurements to establish what is good sound reproduction. Note that good sound reproduction is different than good sound. One is objective the other subjective.

It’s also true that metrics alone do not tell the whole story. They are capable of getting things right but are often applied incorrectly or incompletely. It’s worth arguing that case by case but not that metrics are always the whole story or that they are of no value. It’s really not so complicated to understand. I find much of the content of this thread pretty useless.  Maybe Amir’s site has more to offer.  I’ll have to check it out more often. 

The fake science crowd pushing Toneloser gear is one of the reasons I stopped frequenting A’gon.  

There are plenty of engineers and designers, actual smart people, whose measurements make sense.  Galen Gareis, formerly head of design for Belden offers many technical specs and reasons why he designed his Iconoclast cables, and offers specs on each cable that ships.  

The late great Bascom King, aside from being an esteemed engineer and designer (whose amps I am enjoying right now) used to do measurements for magazines and once measured an amp with much lower distortion than any other.  It sounded poor.  

The fake science crowd is all about feeling good thinking you’ve drinking champagne as good (or better than) a premium brand.  Actually maybe that’s a new business model for them, they can measure premium beverages and debunk Dom Pérignon!  Or maybe do stress tests on The stitches of Gucci jackets to prove that Kirkland brand clothes “measure” better.  
 

I better rush and register Menswearsciencereview.com before someone else does.

I’ll buy a new usb microscope so I can verify thread count of the sheets I just bought, so I know if they feel soft or not.  

Van Maanen use the same Fourier tools as any designer, but he used new idea for components design parts... How can he prove that his design is good out of a listening test ? 😊

 I dont need a proof to know that our fourier hearing theory dont tell all the story , it is in psycho-acoustic books... There is MANY hearing theories..

But i dont need proof to know that we must verify the design basic quality by measures but ALSO listening... And i trust trained listeners...

The evidence of reality is not oscillator results but the acoustic space occupied and your ears.

Not really.  The space between your ears is your brain which interprets and makes up stuff all the time.  It especially does that if you allow your eyes to feed it information too.

What we care about are the sound waves going into your ear.  In many cases we can prove conclusively that they have not changed yet the lying brain says they are because you let your eyes help it that way.

It is our disagrement here... You ask me to prove what is evident : it takes listening test not only meassuring test to evaluate gear... You even said it yourself and you do it..

Our disagrement is simple: we cannot reduce hearing to Fourier theory and we cannot extrapolate our design abstract measure to real hearing test predictivity... We must listen to improve the design... All audiophiles are not the same, some are deluded, some are less deluded, thats my point...  

@mahgister 

BUT I KNOW THAT VAN MAANEN IS RIGHT about hearing theory and the way the ears process sound in relation to sound source.. this is why i read it...

I fully understand everything he has written and nothing there should remotely get you to believe what he is saying.  He has offered no proof points other than one silly circuit which has no place whatsoever in a real amplifier.  A contrived example is no proof of anything.  You need to write him and ask him to give you that proof: that his knowledge of said "theory" has enabled him to build a more musical amplifier.  Ask him how that was assessed.  If he says it is to his ears and reviewers or customers, run, and run very fast because that is what every other audio designer will tell you.

The evidence of reality is not oscillator results but the acoustic space occupied and your ears.

@mahgister 

But i disagree wi5th you vabout the importance of hearing theory and listening test...I disagree with the idea that we can predict more than the behaviour of the electronic compobnents but also their sound qualities... Sound qualities is a set...In this set each sonic character production cannot be predicted as human hearings will perceive it and judged it... 

You can disagree but you need to prove it.  You can't keep repeating the same research which says nothing whatsoever about "sonic qualities" of an amplifier.