Readers: Please do not sub-scribe to the notion that Steam Cleaning will absolutely remove all the offense sounds on a certain recording. It can not. Those noises related to a poor pressing or other manufacturing defects are there to stay ; no matter what cleaning process you use. |
what you might be hearing is a bearing or platter noise versus the record. Do you hear the noise on any of your new or quiet vinyl? if so, see if it has a pattern with the revolution. on my gyrodec, when the oil level got a little low, i would hear a faint rub. Just an idea. I have used the steamer process and not heard the sound you discuss though i do have one album that resists all attempts so far to clean |
I use the "perfection" steamer with absolutely no deleterious effects. If you hear extra noise, I suggest that you steamed some extremely dirty "garage" records and may have moved the dirt to a new place. Try steaming the same record again and see (hear) what happens |
D: It seems Steam Cleaning removed the most objectionable pops and ticks. You mentioned ,these LPs are "Garage" finds nothing wrong with that, but underlying previous owner abuse or pressing noises can be revealed by a good cleaning. Sometimes we luck out and other times we don't with trash-bin finds. I do it all the time.
Also, you mentioned "soap" and I don't recommend "soap" due to the fact it can cling to the grove sides like cement. Generic Record Fluids, to home-brew, to any of the Hi-Fi Cleaning Fluids great , but I never had any sucess with "soap".
This thread has revealed some record fluids such as "Last and Sound Guard" ,to mention a few, do appear to have ageing problems that contribute to objectionable noise. When we buy second-hand you never know what to expect.
Personally, I have not heard a "wisk" sound but on some finds I have heard a "cutting-head" or "scraping noise" . For me I just return them to Goodwill in the form of a donation for that other person who may be satisified. |
That's to close... The average number is 5-6" away from the record. I use it closer in a rush if their is some point that needs an extra but for a very short application. |
How far away do you hold the steamer? Maybe I got too close and cooked my record? I was holding it probably an inch or two away. Is that too close? |
I use the same technic as you and haven't noticed the "woosh" sound you described. |
What am I doing wrong here? I bought the Perfection Steam Cleaner at Walgreens and tried it out on a few old records that had quite a few ticks and pops. I used a microfibre cloth with some R/O water from the auto supply store and a few drops of dish soap to scrub the record. I then blasted it with the steam cleaner, rinsed with water, steamed it again, and dryed with another microfibre cloth. When I played the record, the sound was substantially better. There were virtually no pops or clicks and the sound seemed much more dynamic overall. However, when the record reached a quiet passage, there was a very noticable new noise that the record did not have before. A kind of "woosh, woosh" that seemed to be in time with the revolutions of the record. I tried my steaming technique again on another record and the same noise appeared. Luckily I was experimenting with some old garage sale records so nothing valuable was harmed, but I wonder if anyone else has had this result? Is there anything wrong with my steaming technique? I am hesitant to try this on one of my good LPs if the result will be the same. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. Thanks. |
Allvinyl: Yes, I believe that moderate steam pressure is the key . Too strong a pinpoint, or too large a "footprint" as in garmet steamer is an invitation for trouble ( potential warping ). That's one of the reasons I continue to feel the Perfection is a best buy besides lo-cost. |
Thanks Jahaira, they appear to have exactly what I need at a reasonable price. |
www.sleevetown.com has a few types and some goodies you might find interesting. I have no relation to them but a good customer relation. |
Perhaps this is addressed somewhere else but I haven't been able to locate it. I am preparing to steam all of my new and used records ( only about 30 or so ) and I don't want to put them back in the old dirty paper sleeves. As I know there are various types available, what would you guys recommend and where can I obtain them ?
Thanks in advance, Keith |
Do you think it is possible to have to much pressure?
Yes, I think so. Not with the Perfection, although you see the record warping from the heat if exposed for long periods at short distance. If used as recommended here, no problem!
Perhaps with the Monster 1200?
After that demostration, yes! The vapor stream with this unit looks very strong and can be hazardous for the record and the person holding it. I don't think we need that kind of vapor strengh to remove duts and grunge from our records.
Once up to heat and pressure, how much steam time do you get with the Perfection?
Not sure about timing but it does gave me enough time to clean between 8-10 records until the water is gone. The manual said it can give you around 30 minutes. |
Crem1 and Jahaira:
Do you think it is possible to have to much pressure? Perhaps with the Monster 1200?
Once up to heat and pressure, how much steam time do you get with the Perfection? |
J : Thank You. I reviewed the video. My concern is that the "show" is exactly that a show, no additional info other than what scantily they mention. What exactly do they doctument & is that informational ? For me, i'll wait until more facts present themselves in a Q&A section. Best to you. |
In the video clip they said it requires one minute to start steaming for 30 minutes. The additional tank is at the bottom of the unit and it will mix with the vapor at the last second, so it's not an apply and steam system, but a combination inside the water tank. It has more power than the Perfection and will not leak water into the record. I will suggest to take a look at the video and see it working. |
Allvinyl: Thanks for the post. My interest in the 1200 is informational ; I know its 1200 watts, manufactured in Italy and uses a unique second tank. Not much to consider . Deep in the backbone of the thread I mentioned some experimention with a rinse that I painted on. My interest is more focused on design and durability. All the Best. |
Crem1: Checked out the Monster 1200 on the web site. Intriguing, but I think you could be more judicious with the cleaning fluids by applying them directly to the LP as you have always described. I am still going to try the Perfection first, hoping someone takes the plunge for the Monster and can report their results. I am out of work right now so discretionary $$ is at a premium. Anyone need a Storage/UNIX admin in the Twin Cities area? ;-)
For cleaning fluids, I will be trying the RRL Super Cleaner, L'Art du Son, and DD. I am also intrigued by the enzyme cleaners from AVIS and Walker but don't have any on hand. I have been using the RRL SC and LAdS fluid with good results but expect the noted improvements by adding steam. I'm also going to try without any fluid at all as one contributor says he feels the steam obviates the need for any cleaning fluids. I'll report back when I have been able to get the steamer and have cleaned some LPs. I have several good test cases that I can use as my free time has allowed me to do a lot of record cleaning lately so I can listen to these already cleaned records, steam, and re-listen. Can't wait! |
Crem1, they have a page with a video clip.
http://www.monster1200.com/Default.asp?bhcp=1 |
Hi all, I have been happily steaming away for for a couple of months now, and I have found other uses for steaming. You know how the Onzow Zerodust gets full of dust after awhile, and needs to be cleaned? I remove the gel bubble from the box, place it on the upside down box, and steam it clean. It comes out looking like new, and seems to return it to the very sticky condition as when new. Highly recommended! Also, works well on record cleaning brushes.
Enjoy,
Dan |
FYI: Today I received a flyer from Walgreens indicating they are offering a $10 rebate for the Perfection hand held steam cleaner; thats $ 19.00 not bad.
On TV I did notice a hand steamer "The Monster 1200" that currently sells for $67.00 and claims to have a separate chamber for liquids that can be spritzed into the steam chamber moments before release with a head of steam. I don't know a thang other than the info commerical; the web site is only a replay of the commerical sans any details or specs. Should anybody know more please relate. |
Now that you mention the warping ( while steaming), I noticed that one record already warped, after steamed, dicreased its original warp. It's still warped but about 40-50% less after than before. Have anyone else noticed this?
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Allvinyl Jahaira has answered your questions like i would. The only difference is i hold the nozzle 1 to 2" away for all cleaning. You will notice on some Record company labels that a wavieness of the vinyl will happen when steaming. Dont worry the lp will return to its original shape. Experiment on a lp or two thats in real bad shape that you dont play for that reason, hear what results you achieve. If that works then go for one of your favorites and listen to the difference for the better. Happy Steaming. |
Do you use the Walgreen's steamer?
I bought one of those from my nearest Walgreens.
How far from the LP do you hold the steamer?
About 6" regularly but if I notice a tought spot, I steam it about 1-2" away.
What nozzle are you using?
Use the elbow nozzle. |
Stltrains: your response has given me the confidence to at least try steaming on the VPI. I have more questions.
Do you use the Walgreen's steamer?
How far from the LP do you hold the steamer?
What nozzle are you using?
TIA. |
Allvinyl i use a 16.5 and yes it will get wet but i have had absolutely no problems at all with it. I have no problems ether with the label and i dont cover it. I work the steam from the outside in with my cleaning method. |
Not having the funds for an RCM, I grab a bath towel, put it on the kitchen counter, place the record on the towel, spray on then paint the cleaning solution over the entire record, wait a minute or so and then steam/wipe, steam/wipe and then one more steam/wipe cycle using several different microfibre cloths.
It takes about 8-10 minutes per side. I write the date of the cleaning on the inner sleeve.
Garage Sale records might take another few cycles but the results are worth it.
All I can say is that it works for me (Thanks Crem1 again!), although steaming fogs up my eyeglasses (grin).
Regards,
Jan |
Just saw this steamer. Appears close to the Mapleshade and other units mentioned regularly. Only $20.00 plus shipping. |
I have read this thread but still have some questions for Crem1. Do you begin your current steam regimen by placing the LP on your RCM with the jar remover covering the LP label? I believe it would be easier to control the actual steaming as the spinning LP on the RCM would allow you to position the steamer over the LP starting at the inner grooves and moving slowly toward the LP rim in a straight line like a straight line tracking tonearm. Also I think you said you hold the nozzle close enough to the LP such that the steam pattern is about the size of a dime. Correct? Does that imply that the nozzle is pointing straight down at the record as opposed to holding it at an agle? I am concerned about the amount of moisture that would be deposited on my VPI 17F. Is that an issue on the RCM? I will probably have more questions, but first I need to get a steamer. I will probably try the Walgreen's unit first. TIA for your answers/advice. John |
O : Without a microscope its hard to make a good guess. My suspicions are some sort of "Last or Sound Guard-type" product or a pressing issue. If either is correct, the problem maybe beyond the limits of cleaning .
I have never done this but for a last resort,dishwasher liquids (which exact ones are the best I do not know) are said to be chocked full of man-made enzymes. Again,I do not know the ratio but a very small amount of dishwashing liquid to warm H2O,shake until disolved,then paint the liquid on the LP,let sit for 2 or 3 minutes,scrub,steam-rinse and a water-bath rinse. Dry w/ microcloth, air dry or RCM. Oilmanmojo, I haven't tried it but it "sounds" as if it may work on some grime but what you encountered I don't know for certian. I think the pressing may be at fault. |
had an interesting experience last nite with a record i was steam cleaning. I will try again tonite to see if i can improve it but I just brought a used copy of jefferson airplane "bark". After my usual regime, i put the record on and it sounded like a record that was not clean. After one track i looked at the stylus to see if there was buildup but nothing. the sound is not the typical surface ticks and pops but sounds like a dirty record. it is an original pressing on the grunt label. I played the entire album and when the music was playing the "noise was not noticeable but between tracks and both sides have this noise. I will use a extended cleaning, soaking steaming regime to see if it is really dirty but usually those do show some buildup on the stylus. also the record looks almost new with very few surface scratches and smudges. Anyone else seen this with a LP? |
Something to Consider: According to emails from "Analog Fanatics" , as they upgraded analog playback front ends into the maga-buck world , not only did they hear more from the LPs , but a new character (we shall label dust/grit) created a sonic signature to compete with the music. They said conventional RCMs did little to change the situation until ever so reluctantly a few started to steam clean LPs. Now, some of those AF'ers swear that without the gunk tamer (steam) the upgrades could have been a waste of $. Go figure. |
I have found that a full tank will clean about 8-10 records for me. This will vary with each individual timing method. Just check your record avarage and use the neccesary water to adapt at your convinience. For example, if I want to clean just 4-5 records, I use half the water ( 4 oz). This way, your steamer tank will use every drop of water and you don't need to left any water that can be contaminated into your steamer tank. |
Thanks, both of you. Good advice. |
You can drive yourself crazy with this stuff if you want to. I use ultrapure water myself. Bulk of it is in a 1 gallon glass lab container. I transfer it into an old RRL SVW plastic bottle that's more manageable when it comes to actually cleaning records. Load up the steamer with it and what doesn't get used sits in the steamer til next time when I usually just top it up.
Works for me. The results are excellent. As Crem says, it makes sense to start with the cleanest possible water and I know I have that, so I don't sweat the small stuff. |
Drubin : Contamination appears to begin with the quatity of the water. The "cleaner" the water the less contamination to the heating tank. I have received emails from "steamers" that remark they clean out the tanks with every useage. I try to use the cleanest water available and worry about the heating tank later. So far I have found never use tap water and be carefull to determine if the quality of water meets established standards. Short of all that I use a water product "Peak Battery Water" purchased @ Pep Boys Auto, Peak Battery Water that $ for $ seems to be a best buy. I am certian other cleaner sources exist but the cost far exceeds $3.@ Gal. |
I'm sorry if this has been addressed previously...
With all the attention to getting ultra pure water and storing it properly, what about leaching and contamination from the steamer tank itself? |
I wanted to try steam cleaning so I purchased a Perfection. I then home built the PVC Gem Dandy frame for just a couple of bucks and easily attached the Groovmaster label protector bought off ebay. We'll see how it works out. |
With todays cleaning i noticed that the vinyl got some what distorted or wavy as i worked the nozzle to the center of the lp but when done it was perfectly flat.
This time i tried this first i applied AIs super cleaner lightly brushed with a VPI 17f brush then a light steam with the brush on the lp spinning on 16.5. Vac that up and rinse with Nerl water with another VPI brush vac, then a steam rinse and vac for the final step. On the dish rack then a MFSL sleeve. Before and after each side i used my Furutech De Stat.
I played several tonight and the results were as good or better than my first steam effort. And the best part after removing the lps from my turntable i had no static build up as prior cleaning with 16.5. Yea all right. |
imo, no need to wait 24 hours after steaming. Steaming does not raise the temperature so much. Once the record is at room temperature and dry, you can play it. I routinely check the effectiveness by playing about 30 min after cleaning. i do a final rinse using water without steaming so that in its self cools the vinyl |
I hope i don't have to wait 24hrs after steaming to play , i lightly steam my lp before every play to remove fine dust particles and reduce static. |
Crem sounds like you are on to something there good luck and thanks for the info. I just steamed 18 lps using Nerl lab water. Going to hear what that water does for vinyls sound.
Have you experimented with this. I have read this here i think, its better to wait 24 hrs before playing a steam cleaned lp. Is that a fact. Thanks again Crem |
As soon as I find a buyer for the idea which in all
likelyhood isn't going to happen soon. I guess that other units are probably out there in the East but I have not seen one yet.
The unit destatics , spins, drying both sides using a high-speed fan , brushes & drying rims in a unique configuration. Kinda like a a spinning hair dryer , zero-stat machine . And yes "It" works. I can't show it since I don't oun a patent and its orgins are not just unique to "Em-wa". |
Hey Crem give us more info on your destatic/drying unit. |
A conditional yes. My first home made RCM was a ultrasonic-based unit that was affective in removing debris from the groves. Water quality played an important role with that ultrasonic unit. With the unit turned on , the record grove acted like a radiator fin vibrating at high speed. Minerals in the water attracted to the outer edge of the groove caking the rim a with white powery substance. The stuff seemed to start building @ 1 1/2-2 minutes of on-time. A home-brew fluid corrected the problem. Shortly after that I discovered steam cleaning . That RCM and a few others I created just sit on shelves for now. The exception is a LP destatic/drying unit I worked on that does both in 10-15 sec. |
A note from the UK. I had started using the Hot Shot steamer with reasonable results, however WillBeWill said he had purchased a steamer from Lidl - so I thought I would give it a go - it cost £14.99 and seems to work better than the hot shot. It is a very solid German made unit - called a Lervia. On inspection I found the main difference between the units (apart from build quality) was that the Hot Shots spout is quite wide whereas the Lervia has a brass ferrule with a very small hole in it - this is what seems to give it a much finer spray. As previously reported I have found some UltraPure water (Fezer) and the results are even better.
As with some other contributors I have found problems cleaning records which have been treated with Last.
The next part has nothing to do with Steaming (so if the moderator wants to remove this part OK) more to do with cleaning records - has anybody tried using Ultrasonics to clean records in the way that DVDs & CDs can be cleaned. |
Ghosthouse : Thank you for your posting. Your comments in regard to bacteria are helpful.
It seems to me that microbes scour the LP grove better than most cleaners, although I have been assured their actions can be minicked by enzymes alone. Perhaps that is so, but bio-mediated cleaning (given all the pre-conditions you noted) is going to open a whole new set of options for cleaning LP groves.
I know of several Hi-Tech Companies here and abroad that are committed to the development of microbe-cleaners for home uses. Microbe-based technology isn't going to go away . Most likely we will find microbe-products in stores shortly . |
I've been following this thread for some time and wanted to offer a few comments. My post is somewhat long but hopefully not too boring. It might even be useful to some following this thread.
Low, ppm levels of phosphate can precipitate with calcium. pH and temperature influence this solubility. Calcium phosphate solubility is reduced with increasing temperature and pH. Some detergents will include additives to address water hardness issuues. Modern detergents are something of technical marvels in and of themselves and along with "soap" and enzymes there will be a whole laundry list (pardon the pun) of other chemicals that would be be applied to the vinyl surface if used for LP cleaning. I do think Jan's idea is worth experimentation -maybe with some heavily soiled, flea market LPs that are beyond any other means of saving. I would probably do a thorough rinse with good quality water before any steaming.
On the topic of best process for producing high quality water...just an observation that for distillation, the number of stages, and for RO, the number of "passes" (times water is pushed through a membrane element) will influence the outcome. Single pass RO may reduce calcium and other dissolved minerals by 90% or so. Multi-pass RO can lead to a significantly better quality water than single pass. RO coupled with demineralization (charged resins that adsorb dissolved minerals) followed by electrically-based polishing steps will yield some of the highest quality water possible. All this to simply point out that citing RO water does not guarantee the same quality product from source to source since there is much potential variability in the process as practiced one location to another (not to mention post-production handling as in quality of transfer lines and storage vessels). Same things apply to distilled water. I'm not coming down on one side or the other of the RO vs distilled water discussion. I believe there are multiple paths to the same endpoint (clean vinyl). Find the best quality water you can afford and easily obtain. During the search, if possible, investigate the details of the process used to produce it. Personally, for steaming, I just use distilled water bought at the grocery store with vacuum as a final/drying step.
On the topic of cleaning LPs with bacteria and how water quality might affect this...
Many common, garden variety bacteria utilize organics [generically Cx(H2O)y]to generate energy and build new cell mass. They do need trace amounts of a range of minerals. The acronymn CHOPKiNS is sometimes used as a mnemonic for nutrients required by microbes: Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Phophorus, Potassium, inluding Nitrogen and Sulfur. Other elements like Mn are also needed though in even lower amounts. Typically H & O are in abundance from water. Carbon is what usually limits growth since they need more of this than N, P, K or S. If you supply only minerals to a population of microbes but limit carbon source to a specific compound, it is possible to determine whether that compound is biodegradable based on whether the organisms grow or not.
Regarding Charlie's musing about water quality influencing efficacy of bio-mediated cleaning...if water quality is such that the bugs have no other source of organic material than the crud in an LP groove...that can well become the primary focus of their attentions if it is organic and biodegradable. As a closing illustration, various industries require extremely high quality water (chip mftrs, for instance). Water treatment systems at these facilities represent major capital investment and are capable of producing extremely high quality water, chemically and biologically. The manufacturing equipment itself can still experience problems due to biological activity, however. In such systems - as nutrient poor as they are designed to be - microbes can extract sufficent material for growth from various plastics and other elastomeric compounds used in construction along with trace organic contaminants present on surfaces. Use of microbes to clean an LP groove is not far fetched at all given adequate contact time, the right environmental conditions and a microbial population equipped with an appropriate set of enzymes.
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On the topic of enzymes and steaming, how about using a highly diluted enzyme laundry detergent?
It seems to me the a solution of laundry detergent and "good" water would provide both a surfactant and cleansing agent. All rinsed away with steaming several times.
I resent having to pay the prices charged by purveyors of commercial record cleaning solutions.
The question is, will phosphates in laundry detergent harm the vinyl? Has anyone tried diluted laundry detergent with and without steaming?
Regards,
Jan |
Hdm : My experience using live bacteria (that release enzymatics to assist digesting organics) , the results have been impressive for cleaning dirty used records. I also include a stage for record cleaning fluids & steaming that appears to improve upon the ultimate result. Note: I am told by the designers the bacteria I use are enviornmentally safe ; safe to us humans , our pets and the world-at-large.
What is interesting is that one class of the bacteria that I use are in a spore stage until hydrated. Perhaps, the bacteria's effectiveness could be related to the water source choosen for hydration. Perhaps, ultrapure may mate up well with those critters. |
