Sondale, I have taken the oppertunity to contact the Steamfast manufacturer and will share the response as soon as possible. Take Care , Charlie |
Charlie, thanks for that - I am surprised that no-one in the UK seems to be steaming! I may end up doing a survey of those available over here as I have about three thousand records a lot of which I do not play because of the amount of dirt / gunge in the bottom of the grooves - this despite cleaning them. This got worse when I started using a MusicMaker cartridge which apart from being very good at playing music is very good at reaching into the bottom of the grooves and extracting all the rubbish! Possibly a reason to go back to spherical diamonds??. Alan |
Sondale, Thanks for all the kind words...It means a lot to me. I have received a voice-mail response. They said that international plug-on' wall-warts are ok. Unfortunately, the message didn't leave a clue to the exact unit to buy. Maybe that's my problem for not being more specific. We shall find out for I left a message for further info.
FYI :My Dad to his passing expressed love for the "English" as he prepaired for the Normandy . Surely, I can do no less in honor of Dad and you than get a clear answer .
God save Your Queen, Charlie |
Hi Sondale
I'm in UK (Wales) and caught up with this thread yesterday. Then I happened to be in a Lidl store yesterday afternoon and they had handheld steamers like those described for £15.00. Bought one but haven't tried it yet. |
UK friends, I hope a store is close to sondale's residence. I still intend to follow-up on the exact wall wart for the SF 227. |
I got a steamer from Walgreens, got it set up next to my VPI RCM. During the vacuum cycle I steam the record at the same time, they come out squeeky clean. I just use a home brew of distilled water, alcohol and dish soap to clean and distilled water in the steamer.
Mike |
I have stopped using record cleaning fluids during steaming. I Just use R/O water in the Perfection steamer, steam twice. I don't think they would come out any better using cleaning fluids. Also it's a cheap way to go too. R/O water costs me .49 cents a gallon at the tropical fish store. Anybody else using R/O water to steam clean their records? Any comments? |
|
Excuse my stupidity...
What is R/O water? |
WillbeWill,
I think you must be very happy today - I thought Wales played magnificently - also thanks for letting us be second.
There is a Lidl near me so I will visit on Monday and see what they have.
Alan |
R/O water is reverse osmosis water. All impurities are removed. It can be purchased cheaply at tropical fish stores. |
Johnnyb53 & Jsmoller : For a detailed discussion on water (including R/O) please see the Water-related threads below.
For my money I use H2O prepaired for use in batteries; pretty much the finest water product for the cost but availabity may be a problem for some. |
Hey Charlie, thanks for the email, I appreciate it. Do you just steam after the cleaning fluids or do you also do a water rinse? |
I bought something called demineralised water at the local supermarket. The usage recommendations state: car radiators, storage batteries, steam irons, garment steamers. No mention on the container as to what process was used to demineralise the water. There is a warning not to drink it. $1.05 for 2 litres.
Would this be ok for vinyl steaming?
Jan |
I have managed to find what looks to be an extremely good steamer in the the UK - it is called a Hot Shot. It delivers a very fine spray with very few drops of water.
My first attempt to clean a record was on an old Jeff Beck album which had me cringing the first time I listened - after a good clean (on a VPI 16 / Spray / Disc Doctor / Vacuum / Spray / Vacuum cycle) I had a listen - the recording is still not very good (large amounts of distortion in the recording) but it is very listenable - so far so good. Next up was a John Lill recording of the Hammerklavier Sonata - this record is scratched and badly pressed - so the cleaning could not remove these problems - but what came through was a beautiful sound - despite the clicks etc the background was silent - I have not enjoyed listening to this for a long time - it is wonderful to have the music back!! I will make sure I steam clean every record before playing - a convert / zealot.
So many thanks to all on the thread (especially Charlie) for bringing back the life to my vinyl.
Alan |
Sondale(Alan), Thanks for the kind words , nothing better than to know I assisted a fellow LP person. All the best. Charlie |
Jsmoller, It does appear you have located a water-source suitable for steam cleaning records. The water product you found will certianly keep the steamer from clogging and producing a head of steam relatively free of water borne "junk". All the Best |
How is R/O water any better than distilled water? These steamers state that distilled water is sufficient. I was under the impression that the process of distillation removes all minerals, because they can not evaporate with the water and condense. |
Sufficient for cleaning around your bathroom faucets but not your records. Also, you will get more steam with R/O than with distilled. |
Thanks Crem1,
I wrote up a whole narrative on a very primitive procedure that I used to steam clean vinyl only to find that the forums have a 700 word limit. I did save the diatribe locally. Possibly I will write it up as a review.
I will say this, while not a cureall for worn or damaged vinyl, steam cleaning DOES work. I am quite happy with the results that I am getting especially with bargain-basement records.
Thank you for your patience, support and encouragement!
Kind regards,
Jan |
jwglista,
Distilled water is pure water - the best available. R/O water is no better than distilled water and may be worse if the filters are "worn" or if bacteria is present (which it may not remove).
Regards,
John |
Distilled water will not steam properly in many steamers, especially the perfection steamer. Distilled, in my perfection and others, I have read and experienced, shoot more of a stream of water with some steam, than all steam, using R/O water. I say use what ever water you choose. |
Friends, As In have outlined before, "the water source one uses has a direct relationship to the results". Some steamers have reported excellent results with scientific "super pure" water products that can be pricey and other threads detail lots of other folks positive experiences.
For my money, I use a water product that has been distilled,R/O'ed,demineralized and deionized ; a battery water product called Peak and sold @ Pep Boys in the USA. I'm sure other similar products abound outside the states only I do not know where they are sold. Many persons email me they have no other source other than distilled , so go figure. I suggest use what you have and always be on the look out for a higher-grade replacement. |
Perfection steamer now 14.99 at Walgreens. Bought it yesterday, this is the price on sale at the cash register, no rebate forms or coupons needed. |
Charlie, I have found what looks like a good source of ultra-pure water available in Europe - it is a Germany based company - if you would like to follow the link it details the steps to create this water - looks similar to your description of Peak. http://www.feser-one.com/site/product_info.php?cPath=70&products_id=267 |
The statement that distilled water is better than R/O water is factually wrong. Most of the distilled waters one can purchase contain FAR more minerals than R/O water, particularly the magnesium and calcium carbonates and the sulphate compounds that one is most concerned about (the stuff that makes water "hard" and leaves a deposit). I have measured the hardness and conductivity of commercial distilled water and it is not that good. But, I suppose the question is whether such waters are good enough, not whether they are absolutely pure.
I am willing to bet that any soft water, except those softened by ion exchange where sodium chloride is exchanged for other minerals would be acceptable for these purposes.
By the way, I've tried steaming records clean (I used R/O water I make for fish tanks). This does work, but it is such a BIG hassle it is not worth the effort. Get a decent manual vacuum cleaning machine and be done with it. |
Larryi, Too much Hassle? Then go to your local pet store that sells tropical fish and buy it for .49 cents per gallon. I have tried many different waters in my perfection and R/O gives the most steam and works best for me. Very, very cheap too. I believe, (My own opinion) that RRL, now Mofi is nothing more than R/O water and nothing else. I tried R/O on my VPI 16.5 without steaming, and the R/O works just as well as RRL, no need for rinsing. One could save lots of money if my hunch is correct. I don't have proof, but someone should have RRL, now Mofi analyzed and find out what in it to be sure. |
Thommas,
I think R/O water works fine. I use it to clean my records. I would bet that most other forms of demineralized water would work fine too (distilled, cation/anion exchange that is not based or replacing water hardening minerals with salt).
I just think that the steam cleaning method is a big hassle compared to wet cleaning and vacuuming. I hardly ever find a used record that does not clean up by using such machines, and I never let my own records get terribly dirty. I have the same Nitty Gritty machine for almost twenty years and it does a good job and is easy to use. I don't use the automatic fluid dispensing feature (I apply fluid from a squirt bottle) and I don't even use the rubber wheel to turn the record (I prefer to turn by hand so I can scrub back and forth). Thus, for me, the cheapest machine would be enough. The idea of having to get out a steam cleaner, fill it with water, wait for it to heat up, clean the record, dry the record, empty the steamer, etc. is just too much trouble for regular, every day use. |
Larryi : I can understand your view point and from that mind-set its hard to see where this thread has anything to offer you. Steam Cleaning is not for everyone and neither are RCM's. For some the use of a dry, static-free brush is all they prefer to use. And that's the way it should be-- options for all. I wish you well. |
Well said Creml, Thanks to you, I now have the cleanest most quiet records possible. My perfection steamer used with my RCM, (VPI) makes them better than new. I will never have to buy record cleaning fluids at $25.00 per quart again. My R/O cleaning fluid costs .49 cents per gallon and cleans better or as good as the expensive stuff. Thanks and regards. |
Thommas, Thank you for the kind words. For those that wish to make the investment of time and almost no money, it is sure interesting what steam can do to revive your record collection.
For instance, I have a 1950's Verve 2 LP recording of Ella & The Duke that I bought for .50 cents. The recordings were so dirty they were unplayable. After several minutes of steaming and combo'ing with my VPI, the LPs looked clean but still they were unplayable. After a third and fourth cleaning I set the LPs aside for a few days before a re-play. The differences were like night and day. These mono recordings had life breathed into them. I consider them to be one of my most satisfying finds. Oh, and the Jazz books recount a fair-market value of $100 for a .50 cent investment. |
Crem1 and Thommas,
I don't think we have a big difference of opinion. You both use RCMs and steam cleaners. I also use both, though I rarely find a record so dirty I need to avail myself of the steam cleaner. But, for me, the RCM is the essential tool because of its everyday utility. R/O water used in either/both is a very practical approach from the standpoint of cost and minimal damage to plasticizers and other compounds in the record.
Thanks for the anecdote about four intensive cleaning cycles making a difference. I usually make two vigorous efforts and then I assume that what I hear is permanent damage to the record and not just stubborn dirt. I will try more cycles with some precious, but noisy, records I have found. |
The quality of water used is primordial it seems: I steam- cleaned a few old LPs (cleaning solution, brushing, steaming, wiping, and again) the result is better sonically BUT with the addition of pops which weren't there before. I also notice the stylus fills with gunk when playing those LPs -- obviously the cleaning is not thorough enough. I don;t have a RCM.
Or am I doing s/thing wrong? |
Larryi said
"I usually make two vigorous efforts and then I assume that what I hear is permanent damage to the record and not just stubborn dirt"
I must admit I have fear to damage new records with something in contact to vinyl surface, also if it is the soft and clean RCM's brush and also if it will no bring audible damages: I just would hate to see also the slightest mark under strong sunlight in a new precious vinyl.
So steam cleaning attracts me, but I've thought at a centrifugal system to wipe/remove dirty condensed water or any other fluid. If would be a DIY from a drill or fan.
Athought a force of about 50 g could be applied to remove the dirty fluid (I would be satisfied if it would remove the "Micro Care Premiere", a specific fluid for new records), I don't know if it would be better than the 5 atm which a vacuum cleaner can apply to vinyl surface. However this statement can be read from a manifacturer of such RCM: "Shop vac units are not to be used for they are too powerful". |
While I don't know what the big dogs are using (as in higher end gear), I think it vital to have good record cleaning machine ( I am using a 25 yr + VPI - how is that for a great product.). I also think steam cleaning essential (and thanks to all of Crem1's excellent guidance and recommendations I am grateful; from the steamer, water, and even Purdy brush). I use Walker Audio Prelude and that is also very excellent.
Although I steam as the last step and eliminate using Walkers water Ultra Pure Water.
My records are clean and lacking ticks and pops except on really dry days.
They sound fabulous. |
Well I took the steam plunge today with a Conair unit from Wallyworld for $30 and so far its all thumbs up, I clean on VPI as normal, then steam and scrub then Vac off let sit and play. A really noisy Boston album was atleast 50% better than before and thats good enough for me, more info to follow as I clean more. |
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Another convert. After seeing this thread on top for months i had to give steaming a try. Went to Walgreens and got the Perfection steamer for 29.99. Used the long nozzle with the bent adapter. The only worthy water i had was from my Walker system. I had enough to clean 21 lps. I used my 16.5 with two mats, side one on both steam vac, apply cleaner scrub steam scrub vac, steam scrub with a different brush vac, steam one more time vac, flip remove mat and repeat. Put lp on a plate rack do another. Package in MFSL sleeve and ready for play.
From the lps i have played the improvement in clarity is very audible. I will need a better water source for less cash.
Crem1 many thanks for finding new ground in record cleaning. A step in the right direction for better sounding vinyl. |
Gregm - Do consider adding a record cleaning machine to your process. KAB Electro Acoustics offers a manual "machine" the EV-1 that you use with your home vacuum cleaner. It is vry affordable (<$200). Sucking "gunk" out of the grooves after steaming should help eliminate what you are collecting on your stylus. |
Gregm is you are interested in a EV-1 i have one for sale. If you would like it get in touch. |
Do any of you have any sources for pure water. I have done some research on line and it seems that ultra pure h2o can be rather expensive. I went through a 16oz bottle of Walkers water for 21 lps.
Not trying to get to crazy with this but after searching water here on audiogon several have reported differences in there lp play back by what water they used to steam with.
After hearing several more of my steam cleaned lps its looking like starting with my favorites, all will have to be steamed. The clarity and absolute full sound i am hearing is startling. There is certainly no denying the audible improvements with steamed vinyl.
I say thanks again Crem 1 |
I have been using and touting R/O water. It's purer than distilled, which is plenty good enough. Buy it at the tropical fish store for fifty cents a gallon. You will not need any expensive record cleaning fluids, if you use R/O. Trust me. |
You guys are choking me up ... I have never felt more honored that to know I have made brothers/sisters around the country/world that are enjoying there record collections more because of steam cleaning. Really, after attempting to share my ideas for sooo long and now to find so many who are learing to re-love there record collections... Money doesn't mean a thang ... Lets keep it going, Charlie |
I've been using steaming as part of my record cleaning for a couple of years. (I have a VPI 16.5 which works well for me.)
Early on I realized one of the secrets to successful cleaning is to keep the scrubbing brushes and vacuum tube strips as clean as possible. I found the best frequency is to clean the brushes and strips after every 2 to 3 records. The water I use to clean and rinse the brushes is the same as I use to clean records.
For information I use different brushes and vacuum tubes for each cleaning step. I only routinely use steaming as a last step after I've rinsed with pure water. I used to steam as a first step but gave it up as the whole process was getting too time consuming.
Needless to say I use a lot of water, so I decided to undertake a little survey to find cheap pure quality water. First I bought a cheap meter to test for TDS (Total Dissolved Solids). I figured these are the nasties which one wants to avoid for record cleaning. Second I bought drinking water from supermarkets and also some battery water from auto parts store. I also bought a cheap distiller on e-bay to make my own water (Not really cheap at $130. But what the heck, it's all in the name of Sound Science;-)).
A few years ago I also installed an "under the kitchen sink" RO (Reverse osmosis) unit. So I added home brew RO water to the survey.
Here's what I found:
Municipal water(straight from the faucet)- 234 ppm TDS
R.O. water (Home made)- 10.1 ppm TDS
Peak Battery Water - 1.5 ppm TDS
Ozarka DISTILLED Drinking Water - 0.3 ppm TDS
My home made distilled water - 0.4ppm TDS
So I now purchase DISTILLED drinking water for my cleaning. Note: it must be distilled water. In my area the most easily available is Ozarka.
Hope this helps.
Regards
Tom |
Tom what interesting info on water. I am a big drinker of Ozarka Spring water. Dont know if my local market has there Distilled water. Your tests dont lie and .3 TDS is i would think good enough. Like you i have two vac towers for my 16.5 and use 17h brushes for cleaning and rinsing.
Charlie again word of mouth and threads like this have made learning whats a better way in accomplishing things so easy and in this case money saving. Thanks again |
Charlie, you very much deserve it! |
TDS or Total Disolved Solids from Wickipidia..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_dissolved_solids |
Readers, I have been contacted by a engineer who has an extensive backround in commercial uses of steam. He has strongly recommended that only deionized , R/O water be used to steam & clean LPs.
Without getting into a long drawn-out explanation , this gentleman appears to have much to offer on steaming issues, so please consider his recommendation. |
Crem1, do you know if it has to be with (1) the best water to clean the records, (2)it's harmless for the steamer/record and (3) dedicated to that use for industrial/commercial companies. Thanks,
Jahaira |
According to Jim, its the water product to use cleaning LPs and should be used in all steam cleaning applications. As for # 3 ,I suppose, the correct answer is that commmerical applications also use R/O + water.
As I have noted before, many folks have said that they can not find anything but distilled water in there hometowns. If that is so,than use what you can find and improve when you locate a water upgrade. Should your steaming tank show signs of grime build-up, replace the unit to be on the safe side. |
