i've been using a grace g-714 wooden oil damped unipivot with my super gold and it sounds lovely.
|
Hi, I've set up quite a few deccas. The most successful arms were the Zeta and the Dynavector arms. We used to get the cartridges rebuilt by the Garrot Bros who have since departed. Each cartridge was different, the best I heard was a Decca Maroon Garrotised in a Linn Ittok tonearm - romantic and fast, but I believe the Maroon was a one off. |
Years ago, back in the mid sixties I was using a Goldring Lenco GL6? and after getting pee'd off with the stereo Ronnette's deplorable lack of treble, I bought a Decca Deram ceramic crystal with FFSS, it worked very well, by todays standards it had a ragged response, quite a bit of crossover and sibulants caused some distress, but it was a definate step forward from the Dansette level of hifi. a true stereo sound stage and you could hear everything on the record. |
Doktorgigi,
I have my C4E in a vintage 1970s Hadcock 228 with silicone damping. I've used my Hadcock for 30 years now with Deccas - Maroon, Garrott Brothers Gold and my C4E - great match.
Best wishes,
Charlie |
I have the latest london supergold , purchased in february of this year , the weight range is 1,5 to 2 gram with a 1,8 1,9 optimum .
This is average for a modern cart so no record wear .
I do suspect you need a good quality record player which is very quit and stable , because the damn design is so microphonic . |
topoxforddoc,
which arm have you mounted your c4e on?? It's a heavy beast!
Does it respond best to the "usual" decca partnership of a damped unipivot?
Or does the bakelite body change matters?
Regards, |
I have never heard a Decca cartridge but hope to some day. I lament the passing of the Garrott Brothers who sound like true idealists. Some of you might be interested to know that there was a lot of publicity in the American 'mainstream' hi-fi press when the Decca first came out, which was either in the sixties or early seventies - I'm getting senile. As most (all?) of you know, it went strongly against then-current orthodoxy by being low-compliance, requiring a high tracking force, and preferring high mass arms. There was a lengthy discussion and favorable review in Stereo Review or High Fidelity, or perhaps in the Equipment Buyers' Guide brought out annually by High Fidelity in those days. They did not dispute Decca's assertion that its cartridge would not cause greater record wear, and referred excitedly to the cartridge's absolutely 'hair-trigger' transient response. This is one of many examples of the mid fi press departing from its alleged Philistine objectivism. Anyway, some of you may be interested to chase down this review which included measurements. If I had a copy I'd offer to post it but if I still have it I don't know where I put it. If one takes the Garrott Brothers' views as defining the standard specification for the cartridge it would be interesting to lay this standard out precisely, since it may be that the original spec is not now available but could be replicated at an acceptable cost. |
Ssolman,
You can email John Wright at
john@jwaservices.plus.com
He normally answers his emails within a day. If you send the cartridge to Brain Smith at Presence Audio, he will just send it to John.
Best wishes,
Charlie |
The "Stereophonic London ffss 1000" is a Decca Mk 1. Sold integral with the Decca tonearm; that name (London) was used on exports to the USA, marketed by Scott (yes, H.H.Scott) as the "London-Scott."
You can actually see a picture of the London-Scott 1000 on some London blueback LPs! |
That is good to know. This is a "Stereophonic London ffss Pickup" Type 1000. I believe it was sold as a package tonearm with cartridge. The cartridge body is black and the emblem on the top reads London ffss. |
Hi ssollman try prescense audio UK , they are the official worldwide distributeur and they can give you the info how to get the repairs done officially by the cartmaker himself .
They are by far the best carts ive heard and for far less the price .
They do need a very stable playbackplatform i suspect as they are very microphonic , sensitive |
Hi just joining in. I recently purchased a Thorens 124 with Decca tonearm and cartridge. The cartridge needs to be retipped. I checked with Cartridgeman in UK, they referred me to Expert Stylus, haven't heard back from them. Topoxforddoc, could you provide the contact information for John Wright? Sounds like he is the guy. Thanks. |
Interesting stuff , i suppose these older ones are hard to get , i ll be having a london reference sometime later this year, i ll post about my expiriences |
Topoxforddoc, Thanks for the information. I had asked as in the late 60s and early 70s I had Decca London cartridges which were troublesome but magnificent. They may have been the Mark Vs. All I remember is that they slid on a plastic mount and had only three pins, namely a shared ground. The only arms that I could get these cartridges to work in were the Decca Internation and the Keith Monks.
I bought a Jubilee hoping to get good tracking and the dynamics of the Londons, but had the Schroeder arm. I could get it to work but not with the benefits that I recalled of the Londons. I too have not heard the Reference. |
Tbg,
The FFSS Mark IV was two generations prior to the current Mark VI Gold/Maroon. The Mark V was the Decca Grey/Blue; the Mark V was the first version to use the now familiar metal body. The Mark IV came either in a standard 1/2 inch mount or as an integral headshell using the Decca (Not SME) fitting. The 1/2 mount versions were the C4E (elliptical) & SC4E (Special C4E elliptical - these were the best C4E items off the line) and the C4RC (conical tip). The integral version was the H4E (elliptical).
My C4E is plastic/bakelite bodied and weighs 12g in standard 1/2 inch mounting form. The geometry in the headshell is the same as the current Deccas. I believe Geoirge Hadcock (Hadcock tonearms) had one permanently mounted on his personal TT. Some Decca aficianados think that the C4E is the best Decca cartridge apart from the Reference.I can't confirm that as I haven't heard a Reference. What I can say though is that it makes my Garrott Gold sound flat and two dimensional!!!
The C4E is remarkable having all the Decca attributes of attack & dynamics as well as a truly big scale 3 dimensional sound stage. It also has subtlety and delicacy too like a top MC.
There are some reviews of the Decca C4E and C4RC on the Gramophone archives from 1967 and 1968 - you can just google them.
Best wishes,
Charlie
www.charlie-chan.co.uk |
Topoxforddoc, can you please tell us more about the cartridge? I have never heard of it. |
Just got my 1967 vintage FFSS MkIV C4E back from a rebuild (John Wright - the guy who builds all the current London Deccas). This is something else -it just wipes the floor with my Garrott Brothers Gold. I had heard that the older FFS carts esp the MKIVs were the bees knees and so I've been searching for a C4E for some time and came across one just before Christmas. 10 days later and GBP168 later, it came back with a rebuild and fine line re-tip.
It has all the usual Decca attributes - slam, dynamics, taut bass etc. But it adds on all the other bits you get with a top class MC - massive soundstage and depth, subtle harmonic rendition, delicacy but with grunt. It's amazing, just jaw dropping. My Garrott Gold and Allaerts MC1B are getting very little airplay now.
Best wishes,
Charlie
www.charlie-chan.co.uk |
Hai ive got the London decca super gold now playing for a week .
That thing is cheap and amazing and your transformer can get out of the signalpath.
keywords :
live sounding.
detail
music
dynamic
body.
It makes the mc s that i have rather uninvolving and slick sounding. |
Hi Adrian, I answered on the other thread, but here goes anyway: the Lenco is very a stable and neutral performer once rebuilt an dre-plinthed, and a good arm-cartridge match elsewhere should be even better on the Lenco, due to its easily-heard speed stability. I have to say that though the Decca International is a cheapie, at least in its cheesy plastic incarnation (there is a heavy-duty metal version), it is incredibly musical and PRaT-adept! Thanks for the info on the new stylus profile! |
Johnnantais, I have been using the new Decca Jubilee and I have not had any substantial tracking problems. It tracks much better than many of the old cartridges I have and it is certainly no worse than any of those modern moving coils. I have a question about tonearms. A lot of people are looking at the Lenco L75 rebuilds in this group and I wondered what tonearm was preferred? I am using a Well Tempered now with very good results, and was considering transferring this to the Lenco L75, but the Decca International, the Origin Live Conqueror, and the Schroeder tonearm all seem like they might be good choices, although the DIY path always seems to produce the superior sound...
Any comments?
Adrian |
Johnnantais, it is a very long term comparison, but in my experience the Decca Jubilee tracted better than did my London Deccas of 25 years ago. I think then I used it on the Formula 4 and Keith Monks arms. I do think that spherical tips are easier to select the VTA but ultimately less resolving. |
"London" still offers a re-build/restore service, and apparently their new stylus profiles are more user-friendly. One of these days, I'm going to send in my bitchin' Super Gold for one of these new tips, as that van den Hul stylus is a tracking nightmare on a Decca! I got an NOS 3-pin Decca FFss cartridge (spherical tip, blue body) and breifly listened to it, and it sounded every bit as detailed as my Super Gold on a brief test, and with NO tracking problems! I'm waiting to have time to re-do one of my tonearms for 3-pin hook-up to install it permanently, if I don't decide to sell it. Perhaps tomorrow! I'm actually becoming a convert to spherical tips, as the one on the Denon DL103 anyway sounds superbly detailed and tracks beautifully without problem, and of course the FFss as well on a very short audition. Anyway, I asked the question at the beginning of this thread: if anyone has one of the new London/Decca tips, does it truly track better than the older ones? |
The Garrott Brothers are dead. Perhaps their company lacks the expertise to re-tip cartridges. |
Andrewg,
thanks. I'm lucky to have Garrott Brothers rebuild from the 1980s. However, I also have an old Maroon, which could do with a rebuild at some point. Ideally a Garrott Brothers rebuild would have been great, but I gather that they are not particularly keen on rebuild or retips of any carts now, preferring to sell their new carts instead. |
Tbg,
Many thanks for your immediate response.
I am game to try. I guess it's better than spending infinite amount of money on MC phono stages.
Cheers
Andrew
PS Topoxforddoc, I am quite fortunate to know a friend of the Garrott Brothers business partner. We might be lucky, but I do not hold big hopes. |
Andrewg, I had written a response, but it seems to have gotten lost.
The Jubilee works very well on the Schroeder. The most critical adjustment is the gap between the magnets, where a slight increase can make the Decca mistrack. Anti-skating is also critical. In short even the Jubilee is hard to get to perform properly, but the well adjusted performance is outstanding.
I don't know whether you have had prior experience with Deccas. They can be frustrating as well as outstanding. |
You'll be hard pushed to find a Garrott Decca. the Brothers died almost twenty years ago! The New "Garrott Brothers" aren't very interested in rebuilding carts |
Tbg,
How is the Jubilee and Schroeder going?
I have Schroeder Model 1 on Scheu Premier table and seriously looking at Decca Jubilee or perhaps Gold modified by Garrott.
Any expiriences would be of great assistance.
Cheers
Andrew |
Don't give up on it Tobias, just get that tonearm/cartridge combo onto a better 'table! But given the Decca's incredible slam and speed, I am glad I have another 'table/tonearm/cartridge set up alongside for gentler moments! |
Oh dear, John, you have reminded me of my first high-end source, which I took out a loan to buy and then traded away in a d-i-v-o-r-c-e. It was a London Export, gray case, in an International arm and it certainly boogied. I had champagne tastes then just as much as today.
Unfortunately the cart and arm pair were mounted on a Connoisseur BD-1... sorry. As long as nobody got up and walked around, and no trucks passed, it was very listenable. But the sound had a rather seismographic quality, if I may put it that way.
If I ever get a second analog source, this thread has made sure it will be an attempt to see that old TT done right. |
Well, I finally got the Decca to sound great and track as flawlessly as I have ever heard it by mounting it on a...Decca. That's right, a Decca International cheap plastic-ky tonearm. But the thing is about the Decca cartridge, that provided it is on a tonearm which is sympathetic to its considerable demands, it always performs at a very high level. My Decca INternational tonearm is turbo-charged, however, with a mixture of Cardas tonearm wire and my favourite IC. It has also had all its friction-fit and screw fittings glued in place permanently to strengthen it and focus the sound. The end result is that unmatched Decca speed and slam and detail and bass and imaging, even on the humble Decca International! The Decca International is, however, a clever thing: it floats on two opposing ring-magnets inside the tonearm pillar, and it is a fluid-damped unipivot, tiny as that pivot is. It is a superbly musical tonearm tweaked or not, and with the Decca Super Gold on it truly up among the best High-End matches. The whole is mounted on my very quiet and slamming heavy idler-wheel drive, a re-plinthed Lenco. The whole is so dynamic and fast it is, like whisky, to be taken in small amounts, when one is being reasonable anyway. Any other happy endings out there? |
The post is at http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1094395608&openusid&zzTbg&4&5#Tbg |
Yes, see my post today on the phono stage. I, of course, did buy both the line stage and the phono unheard, but I knew Roger Paul. Where do you live, if you are near NJ, CT, or TX, I know where you might hear one.
Roger sells direct, but he has taken on one dealer, who I introduced to the H-Cat. I am not a dealer. |
tbg, do you have any experience with the H-cat thig? I talk to a chap here in Audiogon, he seems to be a dealer of that.
Sound like promising stuff. However, getting a phono of that price unseeen unheard seems to be stupid. |
Thanks for the head's up, Tbg, nothing dearer to my heart than a Decca mounted on an idler-wheel drive! |
Johnnantais, you might be interested in my post on the H-Cat phono using the Jubilee. |
Yes, you are stark, raving mad! Just goes to show you that the Deccas - when you can get them to work well - are in many respects unmatched by anything devised to date, especially dynamics and speed. I have found an excellent and obvious match to my Decca: a Decca International tonearm. I am listening to it right now, and amazed that this very difficult cartridge (I have had other Decca Super Golds which behaved better than this latest one) is playing beautifull with no sign of mistracking. I have totally modded my Decca tonearm, re-wiring it, and glueing all the friction fits in place with epoxy-resin. NOW we're talking about detail and PRaT. The Decca International is not very strong in the bass, however, which mitigates that other Decca strength to some extent: powerful and juicy bass slam. According to a recent review in Hi-Fi World, the new Deccas now track superbly, being now fitted with a new stylus shape. For the moment, mine is tracking well too, and still blindingly fast and very detailed. Even smooth!!! |
02-09-04
I stated a love / hate relationship with a newly purchased London Maroon in 1977 or so when I lived in South Africa. I used an Audio-Design damped murcury contact unipivot (early Keith Monk's), with success until it died from stylus abuse (partying!). I then moved on to various moving-coil cartridges.
until the mid 1980's, when I couldent resist the offer of a secondhand early 'Gold' FOR 20ukp. I used it for an few years until I destroyed it in a fit of rage due to its increasing mistracking, and after realising it was damaging my records. I think that over-use of stylus cleaning fluid weakened the glue holding the internal magnet structure and tie-back cord (beware!). Even after that, and many years using a Linn Asak, I still yearn for another (am I mad - maybe the years of cleaning the murcury conacts on that arm addled my brain??), but cannot afford a new one), especially since the recent purchase of an old Counterpoint SA3.1 Preamp without MC input means I cannot continue to use the Linn Cartridge direct.
(The rest of my system currently consists of Apogee Scintilla (1 Ohm),Apogee Dax3 x-over, Musical Fidelity A370-2 X2 + MVT Pre, Michell Electronic Ref T/T with Fidelity Research FR24-2 arm and glass mat, Linn Karik+Teac T1 Dac)
|
Goyescas, thanks for your reply. I have similar postulation as yours before. However, I asked that question to Mr. Hanrik, below is his surprising reply.
----
Hi,
The armtube should be Precision/red or red or green. Blue is too heavy
because the cartridge already is heavy.
Best regards
Hans Henrik
----- Original Message -----
To: "Hans Henrik Mørch"
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: Arm tube to be used with Decca London Jubilee
> Dear Mr. Moerch,
>
> It has been quite a while since we last chat on your great
tonearm product.
>
> I am planning to setup a Decca London Jubilee cart on a DP6. I would like to have your advice on which particular arm tube to be used? My current plan
is to use it with a Pre-Blue arm tube. |
Well, I certainly wish I were in France; Nice would be nice. Maybe I could order some freedom fries to go with a '61 Petrus. Thank you for the links to the Decca rebuilders. |
Lapaix,
where are you ? in France maybe? If so, you can send it to one of 3 places in the UK - Presence Audio (current distributors of the London Decca Carts), Len Gregory at the Cartridge Man in London (who uses John Wright from Decc Special products) or Expert Stylus (don't know much about their retip pedigree for Deccas).
Your maroon will need a complete rebuild with new tip, new tie and suspension. Len Gregory charges about 200 GBP for this service (to include a fine line stylus - same as on his Music Maker moving iron pickups) |
Long ago I used a Decca London cartridge -- it has a maroon top. I really loved that cartridge, but for some reason I switched to a Denon 103D, and promptly forgot the Decca. Quite by chance I recently found it in a pile of extinct audio components in an old box in the garage (above the high water mark). It has only three pins, and so I am not clear about how to hook it up, nor am I very highly motivated since my Cello cartridge, although a bit long in the tooth, is excellent. I wonder whether it makes sense to send the Decca somewhere (but where?) to be refurbished. |
I am having very good luck with my Jubilee in the Schroeder Reference arm on the Garrard 501. I recently discovered that I could get it to track with no problems at just under 2 grams. Here the bass is what I remember the Londons being like and the top end is very quick and true. The anti-skating, however, has to be right on, especially for the inner grooves.
I have my J. Aleret MC2 Finish back, but I am having so much fun with the Decca. |
Eyiu, you will wan to use the Precision Blue armwand. The cartridge weighs 10g and its compliance is going to fall somewhere between 10 and 15cu; so the blue armwand will get you the lowest Resonant Frequency (8.55Hz if 15cu, 10.5Hz if 10cu).
Either of these figures will be acceptable, 8Hz being, IMO, optimum. Either way, not a huge difference.
You should probably consider using the damping fluid in your DP-6. I do and this is running a Scheu-Benz; your cartridge almost always will benefit from some damping.
Hope this helps. |
Glad to see alot of discussion on the Decca cart. I have recently acquired a Decca Jubilee. I plan to use it with Morch / Moerch DP-6. I am wondering if there is any kind soul has any expereince to share regarding this combo.
I am particularlyl interested to know what is the best match arm tube for it. I have a fair selection of arm tube.
Precision-Red, Pre-blue, Red and Yellow. |
Deccas are strange cartridges, Patrick, and you never know where they will work next. They do like unipivots, and so on this score it should work with your Graham. They are said to prefer higher mass tonearms, but on my Black Widow, it tracks no problem, which is very strange, as the Black Widow is an ultra-low-mass tonearm with knife-edge bearings, the last thing I would think it could track in! Tbg reports good results in the Schoeder tonearm. So, my guess is that if you get a new Decca - like the one reviewed in this month's Hi Fi World - the new stylus profile (at least I have heard it is new) will make it more tonearm-friendly.
The difficulty of mounting the Lenco into a new plinth depends on how familiar you are with tools. Having the outer dimensions cut for you helps a lot in the final finish: amateur cuts with simple tools inside the 'table will not be visible. The plinth itself will be easy to drill, the Lenco top-plate is not very thick, so can be cut quite easily with a rotary tool or with a hacksaw. But you should get the tonearm aligment template and see if it won't just pop into the Lenco's own armhole. The Rega arm pops right in, but not with perfect geometry. I have just cut off the cormer of my latest Lenco L78 to allow for perfect geometry and VTA. I will post photos of this new plinth/'table soon on the Home Depot thread to give everyone an idea of how to do it. |
I'm assuming the Decca wouldn't work in a Graham, Johnnantais?
Another question - the L75 - how difficult is it to mount in a new plinth? Also, how difficult is it to drill for a new tonearm?
Thanks
Patrick |
Decca Gold cartridges rave review in this month's HiFi World magazine! He says he got perfect tracking from a modded Rega arm! They must have changed something (stylus profile?). Then again, perhaps it's time I try a similar combo again and see if this particular Decca Super Gold likes the Rega arm. You never know... |
Some further comments on the Jubilee. It is incredibly sensitive to VTA. You can easily cause the image to vanish. At this point I am not certain whether you can find a single best point that will work to all records, and the Schroeder does not allow for easy replication of VTA. Second the Jubilee is very sensitive to antiskating adjustment. Too much can easily result in mistracking on one side.
The recommendation is that the cartridge have no VTA nor any asmuth angle. I used a small bubble level to achieve this. I wish the Schroeder had the included bubble of the Decca International arm.
There is no question that no other cartridge can match the bass on this cartridge. And I should say nor can digital bass. |
No mistracking from a Decca! That's the best news in decades! Is it because the new stylus profile and quality-control really works, or is it because of the Schroeder? I sense a door opening: I see a new Decca in my future..yes, the image is getting clearer..please let us know when you are ready to give us a full review vs the J. Allaert, myself, anyway, will be looking forward to this with bated breath. Thanks for the info.
Regards,
Jean |
