John- Your point is well taken. I think I like Rcprince's idea about some kind of handle that can make it easy for us to know what's going on and easy for you to respond w/o extra hassle. Part of the problem we experience on the net is the anonimity. Many of us have seen examples of manipulation that takes advantage of that fact and sometimes we get suspicious. Actually, healthy skepticism is an important attribute of net commerce. |
Hey Swampwalker & cornfed. Thanks for the +1's. Makes me happy, even if it's only in the name of science.
Really, the reasons I don't always disclose if I happen to selling something while proffering a positive opinion are: A) I don't want to bother, B) I feel it is not relvant to my point, and C) it looks like an advertisement. Nothing more, nothing less than that. Besides, I usually express my opinions in qualitative rather than quantitative terms.
RESOLUTION AUDIO CD PLAYERS RULE !!!!!
I would guess a similar pattern is true of some dealers. It's a suspicion of mine that most high end dealers are in it for a love of the game. Sometimes it is nice to 'hide' and be an individual too. Alternatively, I do notice that some industry luminaries get into the 'celebrity' of things a bit too by always using their full name rather than a handle.
- John Landau |
I believe that a dealer has as much right to voice an honest opinion as the rest of us, but it would be relevant to the members reading the post to know that it is a dealer, or for that matter a competing manufacturer. Is there any way that AudiogoN can cause a dealer's or manufacturer's log-in handle (whatever you call it--I'm computer challenged) to differ from others so that it would be clear from the start that there's a potential interest or conflict of interest? |
swampwalker: i just confirmed my suspicion. i, too, rated john_l's post +1, +1 and the tally came up 0, 0. |
swampwalker: the likely reason why your "vote" showed up as -1, -1 is that the tally on the post before your vote was -2, -2. as i understand it, the tally you see on any post after your vote is cumulative, counting the vote you've just made. good hunting. -kelly |
Audigon- I just attempted to rate John 1's post above and checked off +1, +1 and it showed up as -1, -1. What's up. And John 1, I'm with you all the way to the point where you say you've commented favorably on gear you sell without disclosing that fact. Many hi end pros are valuable contributers to this forum, but if you have a potential financial interest, you should let us all know. Sorry about the mess up with the rating; now I know I don't like it. |
Let's see what cg70754 has to say. Maybe he could make a special offer to Audiogon members for a set of Pipedreams-beaters for under $500? |
Swampwalker - that's exactly what I mean by unannounced dealer. Someone who appears to be a non-commerical person but who is actually a seller of a competing product. I guess the immorality comes about when it reaches a threshold and when a competing product is dishonestly criticized. I don't like that at all. A dealer can be a guy who believes in his product line & comment favorably on it. No problem. It's a gray area to be sure, especially when accounting for personal taste.
I've recommended components that I happen to have for sale without making a notation. It's still my honest opinion. The obvious moral of this thread is Buyer Beware. I trust audio magazines a lot more than chat rooms. They have a vested interest in maintaining a perception of consistent objectivity. Some of the regulars here who have consistent open minded opinions are very valuable to me as well. Thanks guys! |
I have never listened to either of the lines, but do not form any negative opinions against Dunlavy because of one ill planned action or response from one dealer/person. I an not by any means defending the action itself, however we all suffer from lapses of judgement occasionaly (some more often than others) and probably, IMO, should not "completely" judge this dealer for this one mistake (lapse of judgement) unless there are more of them and a pattern of behavior can be established. To put it into perspective just look at the lapses of judgement that many presidents of the USA have been caught out at. |
I have heard the Pipedreams loudspeaker for extended listening sessions in the dedicated listening room of a good friend. I have been an audiophile for over 25 years. During these years, in addition to enjoying alot of live music, I have had the good fortune of listening to and owning some very musical and stimulating audio systems. These experiences have afforded me the opportunity to recognize and appreciate the reproduction of a world-class musical experience in the home. The Pipedream speakers produce a listening experience which creates a very unique sonic immersion for the listener. This speaker soundstages and images with the very best of them....but its uniqueness lies in its ability to create a sonic space which is omnidirectional delivering audio cues above, below, behind and around the listener. I have never heard a speaker recreate the sonic space in such three dimensional accuracy. They are a highly musical and involving speaker which mesmerizes and transfixes the listener...when I listen to them, I am connected to the music. I hope that sets the record straight on the Pipedreams as a world-class product.
As for the unethical practice of anonymous disparagement by dealers of competitive equipment, "Caveat Emptor"...."Buyer Beware". Anyone who would resort to such unscrupulous behavior in an effort to discredit one product or falsely enhance the image of another must have something to hide. Most of the credible dealers I know, encourage the highest scrutiny of any audio product....preferably in the listeners home system. Mr. Gerlach, in order to allay any question of impropriety, perhaps you should provide an arragement with your closest Pipedreams dealer to allow your prospective Dunlavy customers a side-by-side comparison in their home. Clearly, any speaker performing in the less-than $500 range will be trounced by any Dunlavy product! |
Bye - and you forgot your ball. |
Alanlaw, I apologize for this showing up in your thread, this is most sincere. This is also most sincere, I have had enough of the crap that rears it's ugly head on Audiogon threads. After having been directly involved with the site for a little over a month, I have been in no less than three situations that have degenerated to name calling and the like. I hoped to connect with some people that had similar interests, but have not been able to do so. I've had enough of people like Dekay and cornfed ruining threads . No offense to Cornfed, you can be a true gentle man, but I have better things to do than this, like listening to music. Hope you all grow up soon, have a nice day. Retro |
John 1- whats an unannounced dealer? If its someone who is making a living selling audio and then posts comments under another name, then that conduct is reprehensible and should be clearly unacceptable to AGon. I have noticed occassional solicitations to buy (private and dealer) slipping in here occassionally. while those are prohibited, at least they are above board. Bottom line on the nature of this post is that anyone dealing in audio equipment should make that known to all when they post, and that its rarely appropriate to "flame" your competition. Just point out what you can that others can't (better, cheaper, faster, whatever) and why. |
Actually Retroguy, my comments do pertain to the thread as to compare what is acceptable behavior in an industry other than Hifi. I could also make comparisons to both the interior design and high end food and wine industries in which I have over 20 years of experience and in which this type of behavior is not considered acceptable. Commom business courtesy extend wells beyond this single example and this particular industry and I see these comaprisons as being valid. Also no jab, as you put it, was intended against Cornfed and I don't view his reply as one at myself. Thank you though for expressing your opinion instead of (or as well as) voting. |
I don't see a problem. If he thinks the speaker is bad, then he should say so. If a competing product is good, he should also say that too. I would be distrustful of any dealer who didn't have fairly strong opinions. |
Hey Dekay/Cornfed, let's keep comments to the thread at hand. If you want to make jabs, email each other and really make it personal. |
Good one cornfed.
I know of an 'unannounced' dealer here on audiogon who continually rips the chief competition to his product lines. Grains of salt... Like all of us, I've been suspicious of several reviews that are just a little too enthusiastic. My favorite is this one dealer who keeps starting chat topics asking if other's have discovered his little known product lines: "Has anyone else heard the fantastic new .... Reference ....". America ! |
Now,Now,boys. My friend Mr.Pipedreams demands vindication or else. I have been to many dealers who trash 'everything' they don't carry/ just not to that extent. |
dekay: eye tink ewe gotta couple a cyphers. and whydaya knead 2, anywaze? (did eye git that clothes to write, doug?) do you believe i fake my my opinions on agon, dekay? i'm close to being offended, since the worst thing you could accuse me of being is a hypocrite. FWIW, i still practice where the tall corn grows & have a number of folks i respect in the 2nd oldest profession on earth who happen to live in polk and surrounding counties. trust your "other legal friends." i'm sure one of 'em musta told you why lawyers wear neckties. keeps the foreskin from slippin' over their heads. |
Cornfed: But do you pretend you like/respect them in front of other people including your clients? I assume that both of my attorneys do in my presence, either that or I have retained a couple of true cyphers. My other legal friends however tell it like it is in private. |
dekay: hope this doesn't disappoint you, but one of the areas in which i specialize is legal malpractice (on the victim's side). fact is, i don't like most lawyers any more than the 46% or so of the population who ain't one. as for cg70754: how could he be so stupid? does he think he's gonna get a whole lot more business disparaging a product purchased by, maybe, 6 or 7 folks in any given year? |
Perfectimage- I think you misunderstood, Dunleavy dealer apparently trashing competitors product, not one of his own lines. Very low class, IMO, and most importantly, just another reason to take any internet opinions with a grain of salt until you can verify the source. |
It seems to me that you are all baseing his intentions on what YOU think of the product. It might not have been the most profesional thing to do but he is intitled to his opinion. If he did it for other reasons then it was very wrong but I have seen the best of the best products critisized. If he actually doesnt like the product then he did nothing wrong. |
Perfectimage- I think you misunderstood, Dunleavy dealer apparently trashing competitors product, not one of his own lines. Very low class, IMO, and most importantly, just another reason to take any internet opinions with a grain of salt until you can verify the source. |
If the comments were made under the circumstances described I would consider them to be cheap shot cut lows. In most industries that I know of this is not acceptable behavior. Even attorneys stick together and do not resort to such tactics, right Cornfed? |
You should let people know that you are a dealer for a competing speaker when making remarks such as - " worst speaker over $500.00" - thats Five Hundred Dollars!! Come on - at least give us a disclosure so that the opinion does not appear to be without some business interest. They should say they are a dealer when making strong negative comments about another product so they can be properly evaluated. |
I think we're comparing apples to oranges here. Dunlavy
products represent some of the 'best buys' in high-end audio
but really are not in the same league with the higher
priced PipeDreams. So this does sound something like sour
grapes to me. |
It could be sour grapes but it could be an honest dealer. Maybe he really doesnt like them. If so I give him credit for being honest instead of pushing a product just because hes an authorized dealer. |
It does sound like sour grapes. I don't think that John Dunlavy would appreciate one of his "dealers" making such a remark. Read some of his white papers available on the Dunlavy website. Bad, Bad form! |
sounds like a bad case of sour grapes. i know many that speak highly of them, including the current owner of melos audio restorations... |
