Curious to know your streaming and dac set up and the best recommended streamer under $15k

@ecpninja Nice please post a review of your Revolution. 

So in reading back through this I think @jerryg123 has hit the nail- ROON

I don’t understand the benefits of Roon as I haven’t used it. I use a Naim Uniti Core for ripping/storage because I prefer the sound of its playback through my Dac. Its library management/app is really good- the sound is great.

@dinov - Yes, my transport is a U2 Mini. I’m just now experimenting with streaming and wasn’t sure that making my first investment into a higher priced streamer would be wise in case I didn’t care for it. I also didn’t want my impressions to be muddied by the influence of a different Dac. The U2 was the better option for the test.
Honestly I’ve enjoyed it so far but when I A/B streaming 24/96 FLAC (Qobuz) against my digital files through the Naim the Naim wins every time. The Naim playback is not as “bright” as the Lumin yet still produces a fuller more detailed reproduction. 
@yyzsantabarbara  In reading your response it sounds like you may also prefer the Lumin in the capacity of a transport through a great Dac better than an all in one (unless I read that incorrectly). If true this further galvanizes my belief that separates are still the better option (for me) as opposed to an expensive one box solution.

@woots  Where is Roon falling into play here? When you tried the Innuos did ripping CD’s play into that? 

It sounds like the Roon interface might be the center to which all things orbit, but without the user experience I’m having trouble seeing it’s value as other products have great interfaces as well. Unless of course Roon offers something that enhances sound quality but that isn’t my understanding of its purpose.

I purchased a Baetis Revolution

And am quite happy with my digital front end now.

Customer service is outstanding

Roon is the issue here. 
 

@woots  - If you haven't done so already, maybe circle over to WhatsBestForum ,it's quite possible that you may find some folks with either your model of Nagra DAC or one of their other models and who also stream.

@designsfx I didn’t know a Lumin U2 has been released yet? Do you mean the U2 mini. Also a great unit. I’m currently in the process of deciding on the U2 mini or the U1 or wait until a U2 is released. Thanks. 

+1 @jimmy2615 the Lumin U1 is supposed to be an awesome unit if you have a DAC. It’s basically an S1 without a DAC. I’m wrestling with this decision right now. It’s is highly recommend by a friend of mine who who’d did some comparisons with others in the Lumin line including the X1. This is one serious streamer. My 2 cents. 

@woots : I appreciate you taking your time to explain your process. It all makes sense.

Here are my thoughts, with the assumption that your Nagra DAC is there to stay, and you keep Roon (I am a 5+ years lifetime Roon subscriber, so I understand). There are two ways to do this:

1) Keep your Nucleus as your remote Roon Server / Core. Get a standalone Roon Ready streamer (no DAC) to “feed” your DAC (I.e Streamer —> USB out —> DAC). Such as the LUMIN U1x. Plenty of good options on standalone Roon Ready streamers/ network transports, but since you like LUMIN sound signature, U1x

2) Get a very good Roon Core / streamer unit (ditch Nucleus), such as Innuos Statement or Zenith MK3 mentioned above. Run USB out from it to your DAC. Yes, Innuos has relatively low powered processor (on purpose, by design), but unless your are doing heavy DSP on Roon, or you have a huge library, it won’t be a problem. With Innuos, in addition to Roon, you can also use their own Sense streaming platform, and you can switch between Roon and Sense with a tap in your tablet or phone in no time

@thyname it's not that the MSB didn't do it for me it sounds amazing.....it's just that the Nagra Tube Dac with the Power supply (similar price to MSB) sounded significantly better in my opinion and delivered a much better soundstage.  So it's not about a dac "not delivering".  Both MSB and Nagra are Dac's only and I was using Roon to serve as the streamer into the dac.  The ah ha moment was when I reintroduced the Lumin back into the system as a streamer only and it improved the sound.  It got me wondering what other people are doing for streamers and what their set ups were.  I love love love my dac!!  Prior to the dac I went from Roon into the T2 and I enjoyed that for a couple years until I recently upgraded the dac and started tinkering with my set up.  I understand your commentary, it's definitely not a dac issue.  It's being curious and open to learn from others successes and misses.  That's all.  I do appreciate you and your feedback.  I do like your suggestion as I did not think of going with a Lumin only streamer and your thoughts make great sense so thanks @thyname . 

I demoed the MSB Reference with the Innuous for about 3 months while I was deciding which way to go

So, let me get this straight, a DAC costing ~ $55,000 did not do it for you? Wow!

If you like LUMIN, but plan to use one as a streamer only (no DAC), then I believe the U1x is their top of the line: https://www.luminmusic.com/lumin-u1x.html

Whomever suggested the analog "place" in Minnesota can go to the head of the class.....

I use a high quality CD player.

 
,thread closed.

@thyname Zenith MK3....didn't finish that off very well the first time.

@designsfx I may not be missing anything and appreciate your point. Reason I ask the question is since I upgraded to the Nagra Dac and have experimented with different set ups the sound has really changed.  So, far running the Lumin T2 as the streamer into the Nagra sounds the best.  I wanted to see other ways people have set up their systems to see if I am missing something.  I originally had my Nagra dac plugged directly into the Roon but have since found that by reintroducing the T2 as a streamer in front of the dac my sound improved.  I'm looking to learn from someone like you what their experiences have been since I have only been in the streaming dac phase about 2 years.

I am currently, experimenting with multiple permutations of streaming setup. I calculated that I now have 6 potential streaming paths with the gear I have (using ROON):

- 3 Sonore OpticalRendu’s with LPS

- Lumin X1 DAC/streamer

- Sonore UltraDigital

- Uptone EtherRegen (used as an FMC B > A)

- PeachTree GAN1 amp

Here is what I found.

1) The Benchmark DAC3B seems to sound the best on the SPDIF inputs

2) The Lumin X1 is an amazing sounding DAC. The streaming is a bit of a wild child in SPDIF and USB.

3) I compared streaming fibre into the X1 which then flowed out via SPDIF or USB streaming outputs vs the Sonore OpticalRendu streamer (which is fibre to USB). I found the X1 streaming to be louder and more in your face. A bit of a wild child compared to the more refined sounding Sonore OpticalRendu. Not sure what I will like long term. At the moment I prefer the Sonore OpticalRendu.

4) The SPDIF and i2s inputs of my Musetec 005 DAC were tested with the Sonore OpticalRendu connected to the Sonore UltraDigital. I compared this with another Sonore OpticalRendu connected to the USB input of the Musetec 005. Unfortunately, the OpticalRendu into USB was still the king, which was a shame because if I liked the UltraDigital more, I would has sold 2 of my OpticalRendu’s.

6) The best sound was using the EtherRegen as an FMC from my network switch. Ethernet from the switch to the eR and then fibre to my Lumin X1. This is using the fibre streaming of the X1 into the DAC of the X1. I never test the Ethernet streaming of the X1. Really not interested in that.

7) I also tested the Lumin X1 into my CODA #16 amp with the volume driven by the X1’s Leedh volume control. I used the external wireless Lumin volume control that is hooked up to the USB output of the X1. I compared this to the X1 connected to my Benchmark LA4 preamp.

The Leedh volume control is really good. However, at low volume it is not linear like the LA4. That is increasing the volume with the Leedh at low volume does not increase the volume at consistent steps. Not a big deal and I plan to use the X1 direct to amp with the CODA #16 in my Livingroom, but the X1 into the LA4 preamp is better. I am trying to reduce box count in the Livingroom so I will go X1 into amp,

8) The Musetec 005 DAC is a bit warmer sounding than the X1. I think both are fantastic. Though strangely on my RAAL VM-1a headphone amp, I prefer the Benchmark DA3B over the 005 and X1. I think the rougher DAC3B matches better with the 7 tubes on the VM-1a.

9) Another "DAC" I have and sent out for mods is the PeachTree GAN1 amp. I will use that with the SPDIF streaming of the X1. The GAN1 will be a headphone amp for my RAAL SR1a earphones. Before I sent the GAN1 for mods I thought it beat $30K of 2-channel gear (all sold, except Musetec 005 DAC) used as a headphone amp. This GAN1 amp has a lot of potential. That $30K of gear was KRELL Duo 175XD | CODA 07x preamp | Musetec 005 DAC | other cables.

The result of all of this is that I come to my final digital destination with my Office and Livingroom 2-channel systems and also my 2 RAAL headphone systems. I am keeping the Lumin X1 and Musetec 005 for 2-channel and the GAN1 and Benchmark DAC3B for my 2 RAAL phones.

I am selling my 2nd Musetec 005 and 1 Sonore OpticalRendu.

Easy. Bartok. Nothing else will be close. 

@woots 

In reading this I’m still not sure of what you feel you’re missing but definitely let me know when you make your decision. I’m not big in the streaming thing- have been trying it more recently though with a new Lumin U2 in front of an Aqua La Scala Dac (I like the fact that I’m not spending money on another Dac implementation).
Still taking notes on how I feel about it- was considering picking up a LinQ this week but don’t want to get ahead of myself. I’m using similar ARC gear- GS150 with REF6 and Dynaudio Sapphire floor standers.

You could try and find a used dcs bartok in the price range you reference and it would let you keep roon.. I had an Aurender a10 ...for me roon is a much better platform than the Aurender. software...

Aurender for sure. I have an Aurender W20SE -> Audio Research Reference CD9 DAC -> Audio Research Reference 6SE preamp —> Audio Research 160m mono blocks.

i can’t recommend this enough. Definitely N20 would be my choice if I did not have their flagship. The ARC DAC (go for the REF 9) is an unbelievable, detailed, musical and natural sounding. I had a $22K Berkeley Alpha Reference in my system for a couple weeks… I was prepared to cough up the extra $5K, but the ARC was ever so slightly more natural a musical. 
 

Anyway, my Aurender has basically the same sound as my great analog rig. Send me a PM if you want talk details. My systems are shown under my UserID.

demoed the MSB Reference with the Innuous for about 3 months while I was deciding which way to go.

Which Innuos MK3? There are several tiers, all have MK3 at the end. It’s the generation number. I.e. Third Generation

$15000. A used Aurender N30,or new N20.  Conductor isn’t Roon, but if you want an engaging end result, this will deliver.

@jimmy2615 

Great point!

@thyname I demoed the MSB Reference with the Innuous for about 3 months while I was deciding which way to go. 

Don’t forget the Lumin U1 as opposed to the X1; Save money if you are using an external DAC.  

@woots :

Demoed the Innuous MK 3

Which Innuos MK3? There are several tiers, all have MK3 at the end. It’s the generation number. I.e. Third Generation

with an MSB Dac.

Which MSB DAC? There are several models, ranging widely in price

“I would like to stay with the Roon platform”
If you don’t wanna jump through hoops to tame the unruly beast a.k.a ROON, I suggest auditioning latest Innuos Statement Next Gen. You should also consider Taiko Extreme or Pink Faun Ultra 2.16 albeit at higher cost but they will be well worth it in your amazing system.

Alternatively, consider Aurender N20 as an alternative to ROON.

What model Innuos. mini Zen. 

Thanks so far everyone for your thinking.  Ironically, I had NOT thought of the X1 but what a terrific suggestion.  Demoed the Innuous MK 3 this past summer with an MSB Dac.  Was not overly impressed by the speed of the computer. Felt like it had slow processors.  I am intrigued by the Grimm and admittedly know very little about the product....so definitely an opportunity for me to learn.

You've probably already thought about it since you're familiar with the Lumin T2, but have you considered the Lumin X1? The physical design upgrades and the use of output transformers in the X1, compared to the T2, have a significant impact on the sound character if you're using the DAC and you may also hear improvements using the digital output connected to your Nagra DAC. The X1 also has a fiber network connection to further isolate it from other sources of noise.

I like the nagra tube DAC being fed AES from the Grimm MU1.

Innuos Statement, Simaudio 680D in one system

Innuos Zenith MK 3 just added Phoenix USB (demo got a great deal) and LessLoss Echo’s End DAC with LessLoss FireWire 640x love this setup more that the $25k setup up stairs.

Sometimes the bottleneck is the file that is being streamed rather than the actual streamer. Sony uses tech that will remaster any content you stream to DSD and/or hirez PCM. I like it because it makes what I stream pretty much agnostic whether it is Spotify, Tidal, an MP3 rip, a FLAC file, etc., it all sounds fantastic. They have a streamer in the HAPZ1ES and their new Signature products have a docking station and can be used in your rig or on the go.

https://www.sony.com/en-cm/electronics/audio-signature-series