"I found independent power supplies for each channel to be a very substantial upgrade when I did it for my first watt f4s. I think I've said this before too, but it's a really beautiful amp that doesn't get the attention it serves, btw."
I remember reading the 6moons review of the F-4 years ago and thinking they would be perfect if one had a preamp that they loved.
Preamps are sometimes under-appreciated, with more time being focused on amps and speakers. It may have been Robert Harley who wrote that the amplifier determines the character of a system while the preamplifier determines the quality.
On a side note, FirstWatt has a new model out. "The F8 revisits their most popular J2 model but simplifies the front end for just three signal-path devices per channel. It applies current not voltage feedback and improves on the J2 specs on bandwidth and damping factor."
The output impedance is 0.2 ohms, which puts it between the SIT3 and the J2, but far below the SIT1 and SIT2 at 4 ohms. www.firstwatt.com/prod.html
Still haven’t built my pair, but I’d like to take another opportunity to suggest the tempo Electric solid core 99.99% silver in oversized Teflon jackets. That’s basically the purist, most conductive wire available in one of the lowest dialectic insulators. Other people may appropriately charge you for advanced geometry and terminations, but they’re not going to beat those basics no matter the price.
I replaced all the wire in my system with high purity solid core silver including all internal wire in my Coincident PRE speakers. Every step of the way things got more natural and refined. The tempo Electric wire runs all the way from my internal amplifier boards out to the speaker drivers. Not a touch of the brightness or thinness sometimes associated with silver.
@cal3713 what gauge and connector will you be using ? single or double run ? have you considered replacing the internal wire from the speaker terminal to the Neo 10 driver with the Tempo electric wire ?
Cal, I’ve used various silver IC and speaker cable over the past 20 years. I’m currently using Ocellia silver cables the past 7 or 8 years. As with you I just haven’t heard the thin,bright or edgy sound supposedly attributable to silver. In fact the Ocellia is very refined, smooth, and organic yet quite open and nuanced. Exceptionally transparent/clear. Warmth rather than cool and sterile/clinical.
Interesting the improvement in your Coincident speakers as I know they use high quality 6N copper wire. Israel Blume (Coincident founder/owner) once told me he doesn’t care for silver. I respect his opinion but I’ve never had a problem with silver wiring.
IMO silver actually has a natural warmth (But not gratuitous).I’ve always been curious as to how my Coincident Frankenstein 300b and their Statement Line Stage would sound with silver internal wiring. But I’m very happy with both and left well enough alone. Charles
@debjit_g After four years of work getting my Coincidents to finally sound like a reference, I'm not feeling a big rush to try new speakers, but I still like the idea of putting the neo driver in a 1cuft sealed cube for a diy project and change of pace. I'm very attracted to the idea of eliminating the crossover. If I do take the plunge, I will most certainly use the tempo Electric wire inside the cabinet. Would probably go with 14ga as that's what I currently use on my mid-range driver (20ga to my tweeter & 12ga in the bass cabs).
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And @charles1dad I wonder if Israel's stated preference stems from the fact that he sells his own copper wiring. Replacing the stranded copper (with a Teflon jacket) in my PREs with solid core silver reduced distortion, and increased texture, color, and naturalness. As you stated, the silver sounds smooth with a subtle warmth. I don't hear any tradeoffs at all. The only downside is increased cost. I'm confident anyone with these speakers who did an a/b would prefer it.
And I don't blame you for leaving well enough alone inside the Coincident electronics. I've been using VH Audio's silver (5N, solid core) inside my electronics, but also still have a lot of copper in the various circuit boards. Routing new signal wire throughout all the pTp wiring would certainly be a laborious project. And as you state, they already sound so good...
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Also, for anyone considering the option, Tempo Electric's 14ga is only ~$60/meter (x4 if you're buying a stereo set) with a 30-day free trial. It's a bargain.
@keithr Hopefully someone who's actually done the comparison will step in, but I suspect these two designs will sound very different. You can likely catch some of that if the read the two corresponding 6moons reviews and compare some if the descriptors used across across them...
Cal, That referral to 6 Moons is a good idea. Srajan Ebaen has been an admirer and user of Zu speakers for quite some time. He has reviewed a number of their models very favorably thorough the years.
He was very taken and struck by the Cube Audio Nenuphar and seems to place them in their own singular uppermost tier category for single driver speakers . He is astonished by their sound quality and presentation. Although Zu utilizes full range drivers I realize that it isn’t a single driver speaker as is the Nenuphar. Charles
Charles, interesting indeed. That said, Srajan likes a music genre that really i'm not into (world acoustic) and his writing is often confusing.
I will say I heard the Voxativ 9.87 in a dealer's home and wasn't impressed as his (and others) reviews. That said, I don't believe it was broken in near enough. It had wonderful jump factor, but also clear as day, uneven frequency response issues in various parts of the spectrum. The bass was also dry.
I've been toying with the idea of getting a second speaker (YG is my first) and Zu/Cube are high on that list. The Druid VI is considerably less expensive, but seems to be more of a rock n roll speaker vs a classical one. I can say previously owning Definitions that the old Zu's strengths weren't on classical. The Druid VI bridges the gap much further but still doesn't seem like that speaker's favorite genre.
FYI, since Ag / Argentum, aka Silver is on the menu...
The SR speaker cables I used are high purity silver 99.999%
The Scott Sheaffer speaker cable I am using is also high purity silver, though I do not know the specific purity level. Knowing Scott, his sourcing and selection is impeccable.
As mentioned above, though Scott's cables edged out the SRs and I clearly prefer them in my system, the SR cables are superb.
Good to read the back and forth above. As @debjit_g mentioned, the thread had been dormant for a bit.
Keith, I’ve heard Vaxativ single driver speakers a few years back and I wasn’t blown away for certain. Thin in the midrange and bass shy. From all indications the Cube Audio Nenuphar is a much more complete and satisfying speaker. I have no reason to doubt this as a fair number of listeners have confirmed this assessment. It's reported to be quite adept with all genres of music. Charles
First to log in on speaker cable inquiry: I use SR Foundation cables after having auditioned them against Double Shotgun Clear Day cables. (RIP Paul Laudati). The Foundation had more meat in the mid range and bass as well as more air and larger soundstage.
But now on to my latest discovery. So I've been sitting here happy as an audiophile clam can be with my Pass Labs XP-32 and SIT 1's making magic with my Nenuphars. Then my local Pass Labs dealer (Gestalt Hifi) becomes a Vinnie Rossie dealer and offers me an audition of the VR Integrated Amp L2i. He even has the upgraded Elrog 300b tubes. I look up the specs on this universally acclaimed 100 AB watts per channel unit and find it has zero negative feedback (great) but an output impedance of .10 ohm. Not so great, giving it a damping factor of 800 driving the Nenuphars. But still, my friend Mike is willing to come over and install the beautiful beast (50 lbs) white gloving the tubes and everything. We listen for a while, things sound decent, he leaves and I'm sort of wincing at this over ripe plummy ness to Bill Charlaps's piano. (Ah tubes, I say to myself.) So I go away and come back in a couple of hours and really listen. Whoa. Wait. We have a contender here! All plummy ness is gone, the soundstage is HUGE (something others have heralded about this amp), instruments are 3 dimensional and tonal colors are like wet paint. This can't be, it sounds more alive and real than my SIT-1s! But I'm not focusing on the bass enough, surely the gorilla damping factor has to be sitting on that. So I play the best test of true bass I know, Ray Brown's Super Bass and his Three by Four number from his Walk On album. Not only is depth of bass better, but it's more tuneful and full of these micro details, string against finger flesh, string against wood I've never heard before. Plus the live recording space has become my room! So what's the damping factor reigning in or impacting? I can't hear it. I think someone here a while ago loved the Nenuphars with an equally high damping factor Gryphon amp. I looked askance. Well, I ain't looking that way no more. The VR is punching way above it's damping factor weight (or any weight class for that matter) and I'm grinning ear to ear. More to come.
@stephendunn Congrats on the outcome. I’d also be interested in how the SIT-1s would sound driven by a high quality tube (6sn7 or dht) preamp (perhaps you’ve already tried this?). I love Pass labs, but have read some mixed reviews of their preamps and wonder how much of what you’re hearing is from the preamp stage of the VR.
(Edit, I just looked up the VR and see they talk extensively about the - dht- tube typology used in the preamp gain stage!)
(Edit 2, and now I see the VR has a preamp output so you can actually try running the SITs with the VR front-end and see exactly how much you like each of its parts. That's great.)
Yet another example of why nothing substitutes for direct listening in your system (When possible). Some have had unimpressive results with high DF amplifiers and some excellent results. The Nenuphar designer and builder favors low DF amplifiers for these speakers. So while DF is a factor to be aware of there are obviously other variables that are impactful as well. This is what makes high end audio interesting, fun and sometimes mysterious. Listening trumps all. Charles
Cal, Good observation. It would be most interesting to see how the DHT preamp section of the VR mates with the S.I.T.-1 My suspicion is very well and quite likely to surpass the Pass Labs preamp in this scenario. Fun stuff. Charles
Yes, it is definitely on my list to audition with the L2i acting solely as a DHT pre amp driving the SIT-1s. I have a hunch about it but won't say because as Charles says you just don't know until you listen.
The problem is tearing myself away from what's coming forth from the integrated. Oh, my. And my apologies, it's Rossi duh not Rossie.
Good points. Adding to Cal’s suggestion, if the Rossi allows for it (I haven’t checked)...I recommend running the Pass XP32 as Pre and the Rossi as Amp.
Four pathways that will in combination fully demarcate the contributions of each preamp and amplifier. Sounds super informative. And wonderful music in all cases no doubt. Looking forward to reading about the outcomes...
There are indeed a number of pathways to pursue with the combination of the L2i and SIT 1s. But before I get started I wanted to make sure that the high damping factor of the L2i driving the Nenuphar was a non issue. Maybe the Ray Brown bass test--which the L2i passed with flying colors--wasn’t all encompassing. So I dove into my orchestral playlist to hear more. And I quickly discovered a problem. The L2i delivered the bass drum with a whimper, no impact, no mallet on skin. The drum’s climax after a crescendo was muffled, dim. Played through the SIT-1 with the XP32 pre the drum was big, impactful, as it should be. Night and day difference. One track that made this incredibly obvious was Prelude and Aztec Dance from Reference Recording’s Fiesta!, Dallas Wind Symphony, Howard Dunn. This was a big let down for me because other aspects of the L2i’s synergy with the Nenuphars were so positive: the deeper, wider soundstage, the enhanced 3D presence, the lit-from-within tonality. How much of that is attributable to the DHT pre-amplifier part of the design and how much to the AB MOSFET amp stage? Well, running the L2i into the SIT-1s as a DHT preamp might help answer that question. (With those big Elrog 300B Polaris missiles emerging from the top of the L2i, I think we all might have a hunch.)
Still, how could the L2i play Ray Brown’s bass with depth and impact but drop the ball with the big bass drum entirely? The greater the bass dynamic the more the damping factor affects it?
Stephen Your findings closely mirrors the listening impression/ findings of Srajan Ebaen in regard to the bass performance as it relates to the DF. It does make sense when considering the design objective of the driver as stated by Cube Audio. I expect that the DHT Rossi preamp section will be beautifully matched with the S.I,T.-1 amplifier BTW I'm very familiar with the Elrog 300b, a superb sounding tube. Charles
I've been researching dht preamps and am really looking forward to the report Stephen. Not sure it'll have enough gain to drive my F4s, but the VR preamp really looks great.
All good, thanks David. Enjoying my Cube/Bakoon system. I noticed Srajan had good results also with VR pre and Bakoon as an amp only. It will be interesting to hear what VR/SIT 1 is like from Stephen.
Btw, I just wanted to say how exemplary this thread is. Just pure, helpful, experience sharing and education. It's really a pleasure, thanks. If only the rest of the site could follow suit...
Hi Cal, This respectful and helpful type of decorum and behavior was pretty much the norm in an earlier era on Audiogon. There have always been differences of viewpoint amongst posters on this forum. However the way in which they were managed was more mature and reasonable.
I really began to notice a change in interactions and increased trolling about 5 or 6 years ago. Not sure what's responsible for the evolution of this behavior but I'm glad it hasn't infiltrated this enjoyable and informative thread. Charles
Now this will blow your minds! The speakers have binding posts. These WBT posts are very good but not as good as hardwiring. But what is really not good is the input tip jack on the speaker driver.....looks like it only takes a banana plug. If you really want to hear the speaker....then this is what you will do:
Remove the driver from the box and hardwire/solder the best wire you can source directly to the voice coil wire.....right at the point where it is soldered to the tip jack.......then remove the binding posts in the rear of the speaker and run this wire directly out and clamp or solder it to your speaker wires. Seal up the hole around the wire coming out.....OMG.....
With two sets of connectors gone and better wire.....you will hear things you never thought this speaker could do. This is not subtle. Even better would be to add a set of Ground Enhancers right on the driver negative post.
When you go to sell your speakers (what, someone will sell their speakers?!?) you can put it all back to stock and no one will ever know you modded it.
Ground Enhancers are loops of litz wire that you put on the negative terminal of a speaker....(or directly on the speaker driver). These loops of wire act as a better ground and enhance detail.....very cheap....$30 the pair. Yes, I sell them.....I will become a millionaire if you buy a pair.
I understand that only about 1% of audiophiles are adventurous and feel comfortable soldering and modding expensive gear.........but if you are that one person, then you will rewarded with much better sound......and all for very cheap.
rivecs I've thought about this, but removing the drivers, let alone soldering, was too intimidating for me--like you say. Obvious questions are: 1. what kind of wire? silver? copper? both? 2. and once you have the right wire why not run it directly to amp, skipping speaker cables altogether?
More on Vinnie Rossi L2i. I'll just come out and come clean on this: I am enthralled by the way this integrated amp sounds with the Nenuphars. It is a no joke, jaw dropping experience, blowing out the side walls and back wall and probably ceiling if mine weren't 18' high. And it's so tonally real and present and alive that I just can't find a nat to pick. Except that problem I just posted about it not delivering the big bass. Well, I discovered a way to fix it...now wait for it...TURN UP THE VOLUME. I know, I'm an idiot, but a conscientious one, trying to keep volume levels equal when I go from one amp (the SIT-1) to the other, the L2i. I normally listen in the low/mid 80's db perfect for my size room for jazz and chamber music (which is maybe 72% of my musical diet). Yes, with the level set at 84 db (according to my radio shack thingy) the SIT-1 delivered real bass drum whacks but the L2i needed more juice. Like four up clicks on its 64 step remote volume control (to about 89 db). Voila, like the magical Harry Potter paintings that suddenly become three dimensional, you are immersed in a musical sound field with no lack of bass. (Before accusing me of hyperbole read some of the reviews of the L2i or the separates it's the hybrid of. And remember those reviewers don't have Nenuphars!) So, yes, it's true the SIT-1 comes to life at lower volumes and is the perfect early-morning-before-your-house-mates rise amp (and what an amp). But when the house is yours, you'll want to plug in the L2i and fly.
But what about the L2i in DHT pre mode driving the SIT-1's? Do you get the best of both worlds? No, but you get a gorgeous sound. Something I would be head over heels for if I hadn't heard the L2i going solo. I have to do a little more A/B work against the XP32 to give you comparative details.
Hi Stephen, Thanks for the update. It seems clear that the Vinnie Rossi hybrid is a fabulous match with the Nenuphars. It's gratifying to read how happy you are with this current system set-up. I believe that you will remain in joyful musical bliss for years to come. It's an achievement to get your audio system to a point where it all clicks for you. Charles
AV Show Reports likes the new Nenuphar Mini's BEST over the bigger Nenuphar speakers Now ! I would love to hear these speakers with the $8K Brinkmann Vollverstarker Integrated amp! I bet those all new Silversmith Audio FIDELIUM cables would take these Cube Audio speakers to the next level !
I was watching Peter's video on the 8" Nenuphar mini last night and thought it sounded good but also very aggressive. Not sure if its the recording or its on my end.
There was a post about ACG with Cube earlier in this thread. I haven’t tried but you might consider Bakoon 13R perhaps which I can recommend. The VR also sounds like a good option, although three times the price of the Bakoon.
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