Crossover-less Speakers

I use the Bob Brines FTA-2000s now. I owned GMA Europas,several Maggies,Paradigms,Omega,Soliloquy 6.3s and a few others. I consider them full range as a whole. Lows are very good without being over blown or bloaty. I only use a sub for movies or compressed MP3 music which sound better with over blown bass..lol. My speakers do have baffle step correction circuits installed..these aren't crossovers though. They help give the speaker a very flat frequency response without the shout associated with some crossover less wide range speakers. The bass roll off is also very smooth and clean. Transmission line bass done right is hard to beat.

They won't play at extreme sound pressure levels. Meaning over 100 dB or so. Not a problem for me since I never listen at these levels any way.

Active speakers do not have crossovers in the traditional sense (where up to half the energy is absorbed in a passive filtering circuit and with all kinds of associated phase issues). Add active speakers to your list to audition and you may be surprised.

The Lens by 47 Laboratory.
One of the finest speakers I have ever listened to.

Well if transparency, attack, along with warmer less pinched harmonics are real rules in audio, than that is what you can gain going with a GOOD crossoverless speaker systems, but not all even if they claim this can do it in the real world...

I owned Dynaudio, Jm labs, and klipsch, along with some Custom 7 ft line arrays before my current speakers which are crossoverless.

The top of the Highs, and the bottom of the lows are always an issue when going into any single driver Full range crossoverless speaker. Mostly these designs are best known for fast, articulate, full midband and voicing, kinda how Cardas Cables, and Tubes get their reputations.

A few ways to correct frequency extension of these designs at the top and bottom is of course to either horn load them, or come up with some specialized boxes to more standard vented, or sealed cabinets to still get resonable response out of them, or build around the FRD with very fast subwoofers and/or supertweeter systems to integrate and extend the sound further.

Bottom line is that you can find some FRD Crossoverless systems that will blow your doors off and you will not go back, or some that are pretty normal just like most dynamic drive tiered crossover systems (3 way, 2 way, etc..) And this finally comes down to money, yes the best ones will cost quite a bit more money, but the used market has some pretty cool designs that don't cost a fortune to get your feet wet, such as the Zu Druid, or the Omega speaker lines, but if you want no holds barred than they will cost substantially more money...

A new one that I know is coming out soon is the Zu Audio Presence at 6 k a pair if that helps you out. In theory that should approch 90 or 95% of the best Crossoverless speakers can offer, however it is augmented by dual 10" woofers on an Active crossover amplifier, and a supertweeter for the super airy extended highs.

I'm currently using a pair of single driver crossoverless speakers built by Larry Moore of UltraFi Audio. They are a simple bass reflex enclosure and use the Hemp Acoustics FR8.0DIY driver. For reference, here is a link to a review of my actual speakers (I bought the review pair):

http://www.hempacoustics.com/Review.pdf

I really like these speakers in my small-med room and with my choice of music. I do not have any need or desire to suppliment the bass with a subwoofer. I don't notice any frequency anomolies and the high frequency response seems well extended and as crisp as it should be.

My setup is fairly near-field with the plane of the speaker being about 6 feet from my listening position. In this setup vocals are distinctly front and center, leaning toward forward. Imaging is spooky good with the soundstage spread well outside the edges of the speakers.

Overall, I'm very happy with these speakers, especially considering their modest price.

My most recent speaker before these were Reference 3A MM DeCapos. I've also owned Tyler Audio Taylo Reference Monitors, a pair of Italian made monitors from MTD, a pair of Triangle Titus XS and various assorted mid prices speakers.

With my current amp and CD player, these speakers produce the best sound I've heard in my system.

However, I will caution you that all single driver speakers are not magical. At least not to me. I've heard or owned severl other moderately priced single driver speakers and I could not live with many of them. Some were shouty, some had inadequate bass extension and some just sounded like an old am transistor radio! I would suggest listening before buying, or only buy something that has a huge following that can be quickly re-sold if you don't like them.

Enjoy,

TIC

I have had many, many speakers about a year & a half ago a buddy of mine put his custom built Moth Cicadas up for sale & I bought them. They are a single driver crossover-less speaker based on the Moth Cicada.

I really like the speakers, they remind me most of my Martin Logan CLS-IIZ LE's. I have had numerous Klipsch, B&W, Kef, MTL, Maggies ect, ect. They are fast, open, dynamic, transparent with good bass and nice highs. They don't go super low or high but like I said they do a nice job.

They are not for everyone but check them out, it's a different road to get to the same place.

Reference 3A MM De Capo's with Atma-Sphere M60 Mk III's. I've had Thiel 2.2's and still have 5i's. Was listening to ML CLS I's. The Capo's are amazing with an OTL amp. A ML Depth sub fills in the bottom from 30hz on down.

Gallo Reference II's are a 2-way crossoverless speaker. Plenty of highs and lows with these.

Cain Abbys ... actually I had the SuperAbbys, and I had the Cain sub, but the Abbys alone were ... especially with an Almarro A205A ... startling from moment one. Big, open, immediate, dynamic, plenty of range ... simply mind-opening; they made box speakers seem lifeless, strained, less in so many ways. I didn't like them as much with a Pass or Pathos amps, but with tubes (almost as good with my Almarro A318B and a Sophia) these single-drive full-rangers are a steal at used AGon prices. You might also want to visit http://kcsloudspeakers.com ... some nice speakers at equally nice prices. The switch from cross-overed to -overless is like having wax removed from your ears. That dramatic.

I susect that currently "true cross-overless" and "true full range" speakers may not truly exist, if reasonable expectations of accuracy are desired.

I did but have not heard any single driver that I could unconditionally recommend. All are idiosyncratic and you have to accept each's limitation, just like any speaker.

I am now leaning to 2 way / no x-over like Epos, Andra I, etc. or Shadorne's suggestion of active.

My dream would be Audio Technologies Flex driver run full range and hi-pass a tweeter over 6kHz. Note that these drivers are in the $20,000 Peak speakers.

I was very pleased with my old Sonus Electa Amators and Minima Amators of past. They used a very minimalist crossover, which yeilded very good damping of the drivers, and thus a very dynamic pressentation!
Only problem was that these speakers were finicky to the power being pressented to them. Rather, the voltage out of the wall!
When the voltage was high, say 124 or above, (at night), the sound was dark and rather bland. During lower voltage, the sound was simply SUPERB!!!
Bobby Palkovic from Merlin mentioned something about this in conversation. I wonder is this is common to many simple or crossoverless designs?

I own Bastanis prometheus speakers. It does have one cap and two resistors yet the manufacturer still calls it crossoverless. To me crossoverless means zero caps and resistors. Having said that the speakers are the only component I have no plans on replacing right now. They are the most live like speakers I have heard.

Zu has all this figured out. Contact them and find your answer. I owned Goldmund, Avalon, NHT, Magnepan, DIY, Vandersteen, Aerial, Spendor, Sound Labs, QUAD, JBL, and many others over the years. Zu has it all figured out.

I'm with Macrojack on this one. I couldn't start to list all the speakers I've been through over the past 30 years, but Zu's are something special; especially with tubes.

Supravox's 8" field-coil driver in the factory-recommended enclosure is probably the best-sounding high efficiency crossoverless speaker I've heard (I've never owned a pair). Incredible imaging (I'm not normally an imaging freak, but these really do it well). Very close overall (and in some ways better than the Supravox) is the PHY 12" fullrange with a piezo tweeter-on-a-stalk, which I did own and enjoyed very much. Either of these can stand on its own without help from other drivers, provided you don't expect room-shaking bass power. They are finesse speakers. Now when I've used other, less expensive and less capable fullrange drivers, I've often augmented 'em with a powered woofer section and sometimes with a supertweet as well.

Macrojack, maybe this is none of my beeswax but...

You aren't by any chance a Zu dealer, are you? It sure looks like you're claiming to be one over on audiocircle.com. Tagline under your avatar: "I am a dealer for Grado and Zu."

If so, how long have you been one?

Is the correct term "Zu Listening Post"? Who else here is a "Zu Listening Post?"

Anybody else think us industry affiliated folk ought to disclose our affiliation when plugging a product that we sell, especially when we also put down ten competing products by name in the same post?

For the record, I'm not presently a dealer for any crossoverless fullrange loudspeakers.

Thanks.

Duke
dealer/manufacturer

I was pressured into declaring myself a dealer after I mentioned that, as a "Listening Post", I have the potential to receive a commission.
All Zu speakers are sold factory direct. I have no inventory to sell. However, if you come to my house and audition my speakers and buy a pair from Zu and keep them beyond the trial period, I can be paid a small commission. Since I live in the middle of nowhere and no one has ever come here to audition my speakers in the 15 or so months this arrangement has been in place, I haven't felt too much need for disclosure in every comment I post. The guys in Audio Circle chose to make a big deal out of something that only exists in theory.
I do not advertise for business and the only speakers I have sold have been my personal pair. I sold my Druids and MiniMethod sub to my former neighbor who replaced a pair of speakers he had bought from me 18 years earlier. I replaced the Druids with a pair of Definition Pros which I sold after a year to purchase the upcoming Zu Presence speaker. At present I don't have any Zu speakers but that is supposed to change within 2 weeks.
I am certain that I have influenced the sale of many pairs of Zu speakers and I have never received any money for my efforts. I guess you could say I am evangelical about the topic.
So, Duke, you or someone else can divert this thread further by making me the topic - or - We could return to the topic at hand.
If I understand correctly a field coil driver uses an electromagnet rather than a permanent magnet in the motor. Is that correct?
Have I survived scrutiny?

Definitely listen to all the advice and experience being offered above. I purchased my crossoverless speakers from commonsenseaudio.com -- you can see them at my system page. They feature the Lowther DX3 driver.

It is hard for me to imagine going back to a multi-driver, with crossover, speaker again. Try to listen for yourself if you can.

Thanks for responding, Macrojack, and fully disclosing your affiliation with Zu. I was pretty rough on you there, but now I can see that there are two sides to it.

In my opinion the readers have a right to judge for themselves whether or not an affiliation matters, or is merely theoretical. Some will misjudge you out of an innate prejudice against anyone who believes in a product enough to be officially affiliated with it, but methinks it best to err on the side of disclosure. Of course, memakes not the rules.

To answer your first question, yes - a field-coil driver uses an electromagnet rather than a permanent magnet, typically connected to a battery or a power supply. I've been told the theoretical advantage is that a battery or power supply's voltage is more constant than is the flux of a permanent magnet (even an Alnico one) under dynamic conditions, but don't know whether that's really true. One very cool thing about an electromagnet is that you can vary the strength of the magnet (and thereby the Qes, and thereby the frequency response) by adjusting the voltage applied to the field coil. You can tailor the driver's characteristics to the enclosure, to a certain extent.

To answer your second question - I think you did great!

Duke

I migrated from two systems using crossover-based dynamic speakers to crossoverless and won't be going back. Since that transition, the reduced tonal, spatial and transient coherence, along with the truncated dynamics proximate to the crossover frequencies, are too distracting and intolerable. My crossoverless speakers are Zu Druid and Zu Definition. Both cover the range from 38Hz - 12.5kHz with a full range driver that acoustically rolls off at both ends. The Zu supertweeter is not in the signal path of the FRD, and is rolled in on a simple high-pass filter at 12kHz. In the Definition, the sub-bass active array is rolled in on a simple low-pass filter at ~40Hz.

Once you hear a speaker that addresses the discontinuities of multi-driver design by eliminating crossovers and avoiding any sonic transitions in the heartland frequencies of the music sound spectrum, you *may* still elect a mild crossover speaker such as a Sonus Faber, but it's quite likely you'll not again want to be without the holistic music representation of a well-balanced, well-sorted FRD-based speaker.

Phil

Duke, Macrojack wih all due respect, if one knowingly has the potential to profit from a recomendation (sales pitch?) no matter how remote the possibilty, I believe the integrity of this forum, demands disclosure. I post this not to point fingers, but to hopefully maintain the high standards Audiogoner's have come to expect.

I didn't disclose anything because I didn't have anything to disclose. Try to get beyond the theoretical and read the actual facts.

1.- I do not actively pursue business.

2.- I do not have any inventory investment to recover.

3.- I do not have the ability to broker a deal.

4.- I am not given referrals by the manufacturer.

5.- I am clearly not trying to conceal anything or deceive
anyone.
6.- I have made NO MONEY from Zu.

7.- Nothing I have written here has invited or encouraged
anyone to do business with me without disclosure.

8.- I promote Zu because I am very impressed with the
company and its products and because I know that many of
you would benefit from trying them.

All,
I listened to some Omegas over the weekend and was very, very impressed. And these were not the new hemp drivers. I don't recall the models but one was a paper cone drive. It was very impressive but the lack of bass was not for me. I listened to a second pair that did not have the paper cone and the bass was fantastic. It was less efficient than the paper coned system but I was pleased with the sound. Both systems had the 4.5" driver. Seems I will be joining the ranks of the crossover-less spkr systems. I haven't decided on the Omegas yet. I want to hear at least a couple more brands before I decide. Does anyone have experience with Decware loudspeakers?

Macrojack, you disclosed to probably everyone reading this thread except for me an affiliation that they didn't previously know about. And you disclosed to me how long ago it started. That's disclosing SOMETHING, dude.

Here are my responses to your eight points:

1. You have a formal business relationship with Zu. It began fifteen months ago, whether verbally or by written contract it doesn't matter.

2. You do not have to stock inventory to have a business relationship with Zu.

3. Whether or not you broker a deal for Zu, you stand to possibly benefit from it. Deal broker isn't the role you were asked to play anyway.

4. You may not have been given referrals by the manufacturer so far, but isn't that the whole purpose of your being a Zu Listening Post? Let's see what Zu themselves told 6moons editor Srajan Ebaen about what's expected of YOU as a Zu Listening Post:

"...[P]rospective Zu customers will eventually enjoy a few choice and dedicated Zu listening posts across the country. They promise to be a few cuts above the worn-out retailers who have defeatedly transitioned into Home Theater. Instead, these posts are envisioned to reintroduce the kind of add-on service which previously set apart the boutique High-End shops from the chain stores. The service fees paid to these facilitators by the manufacturer will remain well below standard dealer margins." ( http://www.sixmoons.com/industryfeatures/zutour/zutour.html , bottom of page)

Did you catch that? You are supposed to "reintroduce the kind of add-on service which previously set apart the boutique High-End shops from the chain stores." That's being a dealer, dude, and the only reason your fees are low is because you have no start-up costs!!

5. If you were not trying to conceal your affiliaton with Zu, why didn't you start disclosing it routinely FIFTEEN MONTHS AGO? Did you REALLY think nobody would care? How about you start a thread on the subject right now and let's find out if anybody cares? Would you care if I was repeatedly and religiously plugging Goldmund at virtually every opportunity without revealing that I stood to possibly benefit, even if I never actively solicited business or actually made any money from my actions? How about if I repeatedly badmouthed Zu as one of the brands that was clearly inferior to Goldmund?

6. Whether or not you have made or ever will make any money off of Zu has nothing to do with whether or not you have a business affiliation with Zu. The agreement is the affiliation.

7. I didn't accuse you of soliciting business for yourself. I accused you of failing to disclose your industry affiliaton with the company you were promoting while you were actively putting down other companies. Which apparently you have been doing for fifteen months.

8. I do not doubt your sincerity. I feel the same way about most if not all of the products I've chosen to invest my money and time and energy in. So do most dealers, whether our stakes are large because we've bought inventory and opened stores, or small because we don't buy inventory and only get a small percentage as a fee.

Macrojack, you're not a civilian anymore. You have an industry affiliation. You signed up for a team, dude. If you truly believed that you had no industry affiliation, then why did you admit to it over on Audio Circle, and why do your words to that effect accompany your every post over there?

Jack Dotson, are you affiliated with Zu? 213cobra, are you affiliated with Zu? No one should have to ask this sort of question at this site - we should all know when we are hearing from people who have an industry affiliation because they should make it known. The rest of us play by that rule, and if we don't we should.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Macrojack, I really think that all you did was a little bit of questionable judgment. I'm swatting flies with hammers here because I want you to see how your actions could be interpreted. I hope you'll reconsider your policy of non-disclosure, especially when you are being critical of competing brands. We don't get to take free swings at your products, and you shouldn't get to take free swings at ours.

Duke
lots of industry affiliations

Sorry about taking your thread on a tangent there.

I used to be an Omega dealer, but the only models I ever had were those with the light-yellow coned Fostex drivers. When I started doing my own thing - which was conceptually fairly similar - I discontinued being an Omega dealer because it wasn't right for me to be competing against one of the companies I represented. But I think very highly of Louis Chochos and of his designs. The man is a prince.

I don't know exactly which model you're referring to as not having a paper cone, but in a given box size lower efficiency = deeper or louder bass (assuming competent design). In my earlier post I misjudged where you were aiming for in efficiency and maybe a few other things. I can't say the Omegas are the best in their price ballpark because I haven't heard everything in their price ballpark, but they can do some things incredibly well.

Now there are a couple of tricks that you may need to apply to get good bass out of a speaker like the Omegas. The first is, use short stands. The closer to the floor they sit, the more boundary reinforcement they get. They'll image better taking advantage of floor reinforcement than if you have to move 'em back against the "front" wall for boundary reinforcement, so save the up-against-the-wall placement as more of a last resort. Finally, feel free to move your listening position forwards or (more likely) backwards, closer to the "rear" wall, to improve the bass response that you experience.

Most single-driver speakers are a little bit "hot" on-axis, so you might want to listen from five to maybe fifteen degrees off-axis. Of course experimenting will tell you, but keep in mind that you can use toe-in sort of like a treble tone-control with a fullrange driver.

I can't comment on the Decwares because I have zero experience with them.

Here's a link to Omega's forum over on another site:

www.audiocircle.com/circles/in...

Best of luck in your quest,

Duke

Duke - You are hanging heavy on a fragile thread. Yes, Yes, Yes, there is a remote chance that somebody will read one of my positive comments about Zu and contact me for an opportunity to come to my house in Fruita, Colorado. I don't have a store, I don't have a dedicated listening room and I don't have a website.
Did you get that part about my house? No one who reads anything I say can provide me with a commission opportunity unless they come to my house in Fruita, Colorado. Fruita, Colorado.

Since I live 300 miles from the Zu factory, you may as well go there as come here unless you live in Denver or somewhere in the Colorado mountains. It is not impossible but it is an extreme longshot that has not occurred. If anybody out there wants to prove me wrong about how extremely obscure this is, I will be happy to take the opportunity to eat my words.

This accusation is absurd in the extreme. My declaration on Audio Circle exists over there because of the same kind of overly ambitious vigilante finger pointing that is taking place here.

I'm probably famous for my Zu endorsements by now and it should be pretty obvious that I am not trying to sneak up on anybody. I also said nothing negative about those other brands. The guy who started this thread asked to know what other speakers we changed from or previously owned, so I listed a few.

You're really trying to make something from nothing here.

Mesa County comprises 3,340 square miles. It has a population of about 125,000 people. Besides myself, only Tom Merrill reads Audiogon. I have put forth inquiries in the past and found no one else. I have typed local zip codes into the search square and come up empty. During the 80s when high end audio was blooming throughout the U.S. this area was in the deepest of Depressions due to the big pullout of Exxon and Shell from their oil shale exploration. People left their keys in the mailbox and drove away. No high end audio then and none now. I have no local market. It's a joke at Zu. Nobody expects me to make a nickel off of my Zu affiliation except you. So please tell me how my endorsement in this thread can bring the money my way. I've got two boys who will be going to college in the next couple of years. We could damn sure use the funds. Since you see my potential so clearly, clue me in. How can I realize this windfall that you feel I'm cooking up by failing to disclose?

The Feastrex drivers and speakers will be shown at the RMAF. It sounds like they may be the ultimate crossover-less full-range driver. They are number one on my must hear list.

Macrojack Duke does have a point you would be suspected of bias since your are working to promote ZU products paid or unpaid.But dont think it maters as much on audiogon as other forums hard to get a real unbiased opinion on the gon anyway many manufacters retailers distributors can promote or suggest there products on audiogons forums.When I read posts here its with a huge grain of salt.

This is the first time I heard of a pyramid scheme in audio. I know this type of thing exists in other markets like tupperware, vitamins and cosmetics.

Anyone else know of similar schemes in audio? (where a consumer gets commissions for recruiting new product sales via the friends/family etc)

To thread starter:
Not so much a transition as I still have the Maggies, but I had to let go of my Apogees in my 2nd system and replaced them with single drivers. I could not find a multi driver that worked for me. The combo I like is a single driver and a SET amp using the 45, 2a3 or 300b tube. Full range? Not likely. Having aroung 50 hz to maybe 15 hz without a x/o is a nice thing though. I don't mind the idea of adding a sub for below or a supertweeter for above IF needed. I use the Omega Super 3r, Omega A8 and Cain Super Abby. Only the A8, with its 8" Visaton B200, was a little peaky for my ears and room, but a simple filter in line with the + speaker wire put it where I like it.

Opinion on Duke vs Macrojack:
We all have the right to wonder if someone is going to benefit from an endorsement. The ONLY truthful answer is Yes, No, or Some. Duke asked, Macrojack answered "some". That "some" is then explained as VERY little. Fine, asked and answered. Draw your own conclusions as to motive and weigh the endorsement, but I do think it was right to at least ask.

Stop the presses. I have a confession. I just remembered that I sold my ex-neighbor a pair of Libtec speaker cables to go with my Druids that he bought from me. I have made money from Zu after all. However, the guy who bought them is not an audiophile and has never been to Audiogon. Nonetheless this should prove to be welcome fodder for you detectives.

There you go, Duke. See what you can do to manipulate and incriminate this new evidence.

But keep in mind that you already knew about my so called affiliation when you asked about it. That suggests that you were just trying to make trouble or call attention to yourself from the outset. You're weird.

Okay I will admit that I have Zu affiliated in my house!! I have owned their products for the last couple years.

Ha, yeah well who knows.. Believe it or not I am starting to see that it is very well exposed Zu is getting extremely successful, and it is starting to not make too much sense to many dealers and audio advocates as of late..

Huge backlash, this is very similar to how Odyssey audio especially with the Stratos Amp was treated a few years back, they are taking money from the bigger competition or direct competition now its like stopping a freight train..

Unfortunately this gets directly tagged to the product being not capable of holding its own, to bad, many miss opportunities. Oh well, just remember where and how to get the best value and sound you know how to whoever you are and we will all be okay.

By the way what I love about the Zu backlash is that nobody Can match the facts they put their product out there with a 60 day NO problem audition, this is still too hard to choke down they have such confidence, and realistically was the only reason I gave them a shot all hype, all B.S online quibbles aside, and they proved themselves, not the customers on this forum.

And by the way as to the argument of whether the above member Macrojack could benefit, I understand that this is a sticky situation, but don't hold it against Zu they don't police what some of their customers seem to throw out in public forums, they are busy making real products for people who care. This is a very rare case for sure... And somebody giving a suggestion due to the original thread is asking EXACTLY about a product we are speaking still validates an opinion dealer or not.

Macrojack, you are attempting a mis-direction. I don't care how much business you actually have or have not done for Zu or Grado or whoever. You have agreed to provide the services a competent dealer would provide should the occasion arise in return for the compensation a dealer would expect (the percentage is less because you have not made the financial commitment that a stocking dealer would have). It doesn't matter whether any sales have happened or not. I have been dealer for products that I never sold a single unit of - I was still a dealer from the moment the agreement was made.

Just let people know that you are a Zu listening post when you comment on Zu, and follow the rules of etiquette that industry members do (or should) when it comes to commenting on competitors. That's all.

Is that so wierd?

Duke

Macrojack, with all due respect and IMHO, at first you were mildly out of line, now that your insulting another respected Audiogoner looking out for the rest of us, your really out of line.

Undertow, I'm not backlashing at Zu. Please re-read my posts above. And it probably looks like I'm persecuting Macrojack, but most of my loudness is really just trying to make a point.

I DO NOT think this is what happened: Fifteen months ago Macrojack smiles his wicked smile and laughs his wicked laugh, expecting to become rich (rich, I tell you!) as a clandestine Zu dealer.

It was more like this: Macrojack believes heart and soul and ears in Zu, and would gladly let anyone come by and listen to his speakers for free. Zu offers to pay him a nominal commission if that situation should arise and the customer buys a pair, as that way they feel better about calling him up and asking him to accomodate a prospective customer's needs (perhaps even bringing the speakers over to the customer's house for an in-home demo). Zu has probably found that a compensated volunteer with a job title is more reliable and does a more professional job than one who's just doing them a favor. Anyway Macrojack agrees to the arrangement. In his mind, he is still simply an experienced, loyal, dedicated, true-blue Zu fan who has agreed to help out should the occasion arise - none of that has changed, so he sees no need for any disclaimers or change in the way he posts in support of Zu.

From my point of view as a dealer, Macrojack is now sort of a competitor. He has signed on to a team, and has agreed to perform the services I would perform as a dealer, in exchange for a compensation comparable to what I might expect were I a non-stocking dealer that had no risk money involved.

From the point of view of an Audiogon reader, Macrojack isn't really a dealer but the affiliation means that there's a possible cause for bias that might be a consideration.

So let's go back and re-read Macrojack's original post in this thread now that we all know of his affiliaton:

"Zu has all this figured out. Contact them and find your answer. I owned Goldmund, Avalon, NHT, Magnepan, DIY, Vandersteen, Aerial, Spendor, Sound Labs, QUAD, JBL, and many others over the years. Zu has it all figured out."

Knowing about his affiliation changes how we react to his post a little bit, doesn't it? He might have worded some parts differently if he'd been including a disclaimer, but he could have still conveyed the same basic information (his preference for Zu and the product's meeting the original poster's requirements).

Erring on the side of disclosure is almost always a good thing... I say "almost" because I was stalked and threatened for several months by an Audiogoner for doing just that - so you can't please everyone.

All I ask of Macrojack is that he let people know he's a Zu listening post when he comments on Zu, and that he follows the rules of etiquette that industry members do (or should) when it comes to commenting on competitors.

Macrojack, that might even work in Zu's favor and in your favor for a variety of reasons. Think of yourself as a part-time professional. You have the experience and the expertise already.

Duke
dealer/manufacturer

Duke, I understand.. I did not disagree, just stating the unfortunate side effects that seem to hurt the original fact this thread was of " Crossoverless" speaker designs, and seems that always some specific manufacture is mentioned and gets thrown under the bus, and there is no supporting evidence of one posters motive or not.

Everybody assumes, and thats dangerous, and if it truly is that much of a concern than somebody needs to contact the manufacture themselves, such as audiogon if they feel it needs to be a rectified situation...

Again this is a pretty dilluted and truly a grey area of the accusations being made, I can sit here and say all day I don't mind somebody coming and taking a look at my Sony new H-D Panel, and ultimately help sony out, but guess what they will still have to go to Sony to do the deal.. By the way that sold a few T.Vs for Best buy, I can tell you for real I have done such a thing.

Now because Zu might offer him a free pair of cables or something after finding out and making a sale for letting somebody come to his home to audition their product is really not in my mind a very serious violation of Dealer/owner/audiogon member confidence agreement..Again I doubt he cares about any gain from Zu in this case, and seems he has none at this point.

I think a mountain was made out of a molehill, and in the end just hurts the product and did not just push the intention of slapping a member on the wrist.

Undertow,

On another site Macrojack's every post was accompanied by the tagline "I am a dealer for Grado and Zu". As far as I knew, he really was an active dealer for Grado and Zu, so it didn't start out looking like a molehill to me. And far as I know he still might well be an active dealer for Grado - that would make him a "dealer", wouldn't it? Dealers are supposed to follow the etiquette.

Now that we know he hasn't really done any business as "a dealer for Zu" , it looks more like a molehill - but it's still not the same as you inviting me over to see your new Sony widescreen. Macrojack has an affiliation by mutual agreement with Zu that involves the prospect of compensation, and you have none such with Sony or Best Buy. You can change allegiance without dissolving a relationship and backing out of an agreement.

Duke

hi macrojack:

the quad esl stomps on the zu speakers. no cone design ever has or ever will be timbrally less inaccurate.

if you want to attain a very realistic presentation of an instrument, there is no better way than the original quads, especially 4 of them.

You can go to Ohm Acoustics site and check out the Walsh Driver technology. The Walsh driver produces all frequecies up to 10K or 14k then it is switched over to a 3/4" super tweeter. This high crossover frequecy keeps any switching in the harmonic frequencies. The Walsh Driver is a fully coherent line source driver. I own them and they are astounding. Their mids are like electrostats.

Makes me wonder how many of the home demo guys go on forums schilling ZU product acting as just home users this is the problem I have with all this.If you purchased ZU love them are not afiliated with ZU then say what you will. But if I gave acomidation pricing to a few select folks so they will do demos and get online and promote my products this doesnt give folks a honest chance for the folks promoting my kit would have a bias and the chance at some reward isnt this what ZU is doing? Maybe ZU doesnt want folks posing as users when they are involved with distributing and demo sales etc.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet but even "single driver" speakers have crossovers. Different parts of the cone respond at different frequency, so there is a mechanical, rather than electronic, crossover. "Whizzer" cones, found on some well known "full range" drivers are an extreme example. Only a headset driver is small enough to cover the entire spectrum without breakup.

Zu sells factory direct. That means that you have to buy from the factory. They offer a generous 60 day free home audition for those who are curious about their product. Because speakers are large and bulky and expensive to ship, some people are reluctant to take them up on their offer. As a possible remedy, Zu decided to set up "Listening Posts" around the country where a Zu owner would provide the opportunity to hear the speakers without potential customers having to buy them first. I was (am?) one of those. That's all there ever was to this. It is not an insidious plot. No one has ever asked me to write anything on the subject of Zu.
Anyone who has been paying attention knows that I have not been secretive about my connection with Zu. In fact, no one would even know about it at all if they had not heard it from me.
Another thing that you might want to know is that I initiated all of this voluntarily. Zu has never asked me to do anything for them.
I think it is only fair that you guys do some research on how I have behaved on this subject before rushing to judgement or believing what is insinuated. Some of it is archived but a lot of Zu threads have been expunged by Audiogon. I know not why and I assure you that neither Zu or I had anything to do with that.

Macrojack,

You are being unreasonable, come across as having several big chips on your shoulders, and to top it off you are shutting yourself to one of the best self-evaluation tools ever invented: honest feedback from others, how you appear to them.

Human psychology is rooted in small communities where everyone knew everything about everyone. We still expect others to treat us that way. However, modern social structures are HUGE, especially post-Internet. We need SYSTEMS to keep the whole thing functioning smoothly for everyone.

When I travel on a train, the payment is demanded upfront and a conductor may still come to check the ticket. They are not accusing me of being dishonest. They don't know or care that I have always paid my fare. Or that my small-village grandfather, upon realizing that he had underpaid a worker because neither could see the bills properly in darkness, walked to his house the next day and paid more than the difference. He probably got a beverage in return. That was a different world. Such personal details are not relevant in the modern world. Our local Metro can't afford to worry about such issues. Hence the SYSTEM: You buy the ticket in advance and show it when asked. Without feeling accused or acting offended. Even if you are the Mayor or Tiger Woods. That's what works best for everyone.

Similarly, we shouldn't have to care where you live, if you have an inventory, if Zu actually paid you after saying they might, etc. The system is, everyone reveals their industry affiliations and potential conflicts. My University may bar a professor from sitting on a family member's exam. The SEC director is probably prevented from many investments. These individuals are not being accused of dishonesty. It is just the system.

If you want to be treated as a Fruita, CO resident, then only deal with other Fruita residents. They'll treat you in the chummy way you want to be treated---and limit your horizons accordingly. There's a reason why ever larger and now global communities were created and yes, ready or not, there is an adjustment to make, a price to pay.

You are not in Fruita anymore. You could go back there, of course, but you won't like it. So better get used to the bigger more impersonal world. :-)

i have heard zu speakers several times at ces. what is the big deal ? the overall sound seems to be to emphasize the treble. they are very unforgiving.

don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet but even "single driver" speakers have crossovers. Different parts of the cone respond at different frequency, so there is a mechanical, rather than electronic, crossover. "Whizzer" cones, found on some well known "full range" drivers are an extreme example. Only a headset driver is small enough to cover the entire spectrum without breakup.

Designs that chase one extreme (no crossover) at the expense of others (mechanical driver limitations) are not guarenteed to come out far far ahead, even if some exceptions can sound extremely good (no doubt ZU is one of these designs, judging from the accolades).

Chasing one extreme, however, may have the significant advantage of being highly differentiated in a forest of look-alike two and three way boxes...you and your guests can readily appreciate why they are different and be proud of it!

There are also multiple driver speakers that are still crossoverless. The Bose 901 comes to mind! But heaven forbid that anyone mention that as an option.
Even the 'breakup' phenomenon that Eldartford mentioned is minimized by the use of multiple 'small' drivers.
Albeit the 901s are difficult to set up properly in a room (in spite of the marketing that says these speakers are very easy to set up), when they are set up properly, with the help of an RTA, their sound can be quite satisfactory and seamless. My 'B' room set up features these speakers and they are flat from 25-10K Hz, with a rolloff above 10K that I inposed on them for a more natural sound. No crossover distortion there!
After the chuckling has subsided, maybe one should consider the 901s as a legitimate candidate in the search for a 'crossoverless' driver(s) speaker!

Bob P.

Inpepinnovations...My Bose 901s are still in their boxes waiting for my pool room to be finished. It's a huge room with cathedral ceiling, hard surfaces all around, and little furniture, and I am working on a hunch that the 901s will have a synergy with that acoustic environment.

Eldartford, you should use one of your RTAs to help in the set-up. The 901s, due to their reflecting and non-parallel driver baffles, tend to have less concurrent nodes and thus averaging of microphone placement tends to be less critical.
The high-frequency contouring offered by the equalizer will be quite handy in your highly reflective environment, I suspect.

Inpepinnovations...Yes, I plan to do that. I also wonder if the Behringer DEQ2496 can emulate the Bose equalizer that comes with the speakers. Also, I will find out what the equalization curve of the Bose unit is. This seems to be a deep dark secret.

>>10-02-07: Mrtennis
i have heard zu speakers several times at ces. what is the big deal<<

Good point Mrt.

I read a lot of reviews and for the life of me will never understand the ineptitude of some reviewers.

Know what I mean?