Coping in an Age of Uncertainty

What the heck ... I might as well throw my 2 cents in. I read through most of the posts ... it's the Agon version of Row V Wade.

I side with the "right to vinyl" guys for their purity of heart ... I still have some vintage stuff on vinyl and I am secretly plotting at least $2500 for a table when the time is right. I'll never part with my albums ... EVER!

I side with the CD guys because I have about 1500 titles and a good many are not available on vinyl, SACD or DVD-A ... CD's are small, don’t degrade for the most part and are widely available. I love my Krell/Levinson combo and like my forefathers have already mentioned ... with the right recording it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up ... and all my problems melt away. That’s good enough for me.

I side with the DVD-A and SACD guys because I work in the computer field and like it or not they have the potential for a significant improvement over standard CD ... although at this point it might be moot. I think harddrives might eventually beat all the digital format players out. The hardware will never keep up with the fickle nature of software and harddrives don’t care. Whip up and new front end or plugin for your existing player and you are good to go! 100% backward and forward compatible.

Look at Winamp ... it's been around for years and now plays all the new formats with just a simple free plugin. Good luck keeping up with that! Check the posts on digitizing sound ... you can now take a Redbook CD - stick it in your PC run EAC and have a digital representation of it that is indistinguishable. When you see some of these guys dumping $30,000 reference CD playback systems to go to a PC - you have to figure it must be that good. I will judge that for myself later. I haven’t had too much time to play with it yet … see, I love gizmo’s so the more they change stuff around me … the more I like it.

I’m digressing :

I can see a day when you just pick up the new format as data and copy it to your PC. Let the computer figure out the playback. Sampling rates we can’t yet comprehend and the only hardware will be a DAC which will be flash enabled to handle software upgrades from the same PC. The “player format war” will be a faded memory.

Again ... it's all going after that same sound we let go 25 years ago. The record album … I’m glad to see I can still pick up some titles on vinyl … and yes I’ll pay the $30 only to have my kid make fun of me as the grey hairs on the back of my neck stand tall!

The Horse

why anyone would waste their time/money w/sacd is beyond me. who cares if it sounds incrementally better? software is way too limited.

ymmv,

doug s.

sorry, i made an era in my last post.

i meant to say that sacds remastered from 16 bit cds often do not sound better than the original 16 bit cd, because of degradation of the master tape, especially when the tape is more than 15 years old.

it's easy:

try to decisde which sounds better to you.

listen to a dual layer disc on several sacd/universal players and see which sounds better.

suppose after listening to e.g., 10 sacd players with a variety of discs, you prefer the sacd.

the next step is to listen to the redbook layer on your preferred cd player and the sacd layer on a preferred sacd
player. which do you prefer ??

essentially, you are comparing a very good cd player vs a very good sacd player, using dual layer discs.

be careful how you do this.

my experience tells me that remastered 16 bit cds don't always sound better than the original 16 bit.

you need a mix of current recordings and remastered 16 bit recordings. note all the differences.

this is not easy because, in the final analysis if you can't do this on your own system, it may be difficult to a meaningful analysis at a dealer.

hope this helps.

Hey Vvrinc, you forgot number 11! The amount that one is a "true" audiophile goes up in direct proportion to the amount one imbibes just before listening.

Hi all, I am waiting for something thats more than just an increment above redbook cd before I spring for a new format player. I've heard both SACD and DVD-A, and I dont feel either is light years above redbook cd. Besides, I have over five hundred LP's to listen to as well as regular CD, so for now i'm a happy camper. I think the music industry should be able to offer something that stands head and shoulders above the previous format before we're asked to hand over our hard-earned shekels for the same catalogue of music.............AGAIN! And yes,I am aware that some new music hasnt been offered on older formats, as well as some older music not being offered on newer formats. So i guess I'm in the holdout camp, Kelly.

Thanks Ecclectique!

i almost plunged for sacd. but ultimatly went for upsampled redbook. bottom line ,ive got hundreds of cd;s and one double format sacd that sounds pretty darn good in 2 channel redbook format. if i were starting from scratch maybe. but i also kept my record collection when everyone was dumping theres, so who knowes what the future holds.

Hey John. Great analogy.... well said.

Its like drinking booze (Bourbon for me, please). Vinyl is a small batch or single barrel brew for straight up sippin' - no distractions, just pure pleasure. Digital is for mixed drinks. So when I'm writing out the bills or surfing Audigon, its iTunes into a Benchmark DAC. When I want to turn off the world and listen to Miles, Trane, Satchmo, Gary Burton, hell, even vintage Heart or Led Zep, I drop a Shelter 901 in the groove, turn down the lights, and sip some of Kentucky's finest, straight up. SACD, DVD-A? Not until they can beat vinyl or are as generally accepted as ice cream in July.

Best to you, cornfedboy.

Dear Chadnliz, I have a life ...but I will always make time for people with an exceptional understanding of audio. Judging by your command of the english language, I must admit to being intimidated! That being said however, what is your point? Sure I can be a pain in the ass and hard to pay attention to...not much different than trying to decipher your pointless remarks! What is the substance of your being "pained" by myself? Don't be jealous...my life isn't that fabulous...or is it?

Hey Dave, when you are back from having this amazing life you claim to have ask yourself if you also earned the tittle of "pain in the ass to pay attention to"?
OK so you are an old seasoned audio guy, usually all that means is you have made more errors in audio the younger folks in this hobby, but I forgot you have a life so you never read this.

It is true that no portable medium can ever capture the essence of a home setup.

However the portable medium does not have to sound like the dreck it is. At this point in time there is not any incentive for the manufacturers to raise the bar of development as the masses have voted with their wallet to accept mediocrity. And believe me they are doing hand springs down Park Ave, with the excessive profits of these portable mediums. Music means nothing to them, just profit,thats it, nothing less.

During my days with CBS/Columbia if we had ever put out a LP,cassette,reel to reel that has the sonic signature of this medium, our heads would have been on pikes.

I for one would dearly love to see a portable medium I could live with and no it doesn't have to be as good as a
home system. But it does have to sound like music. It can be done and it will happen, when the masses finally turn thier back and demand more from the portable medium.

Until it does I vote no with my wallet.

I agree with Drubin. When I tried to get my stereo in my car, I hurt my back. Then I tried the iPod and my back did not hurt at all. I sure like having almost my entire music collection on the road with me in my car. It is foolish to compare an iPod with a thoughfully assembled home stereo. Each has it place.

Jeez, I think the iPod is a great invention, which raises the bar for mobile sound for most people. Whoever said it's meant to replace your home stereo?

Let's see been in this hobby since 1957, been married since 1969 to a former aka March 68. Have seen just a ton of gear in those 47 years. Some of it really stellar and has made a dramatic impact on the world of audio.

One of the young guys I work with recently bought an I-Pod.Once again lets thank Steven Jobs and the other morons who live on to polute the ears of the newbies into thinking they are actually hearing music.

So I dragged this newbie over to the humble abode to listen to some high end. The transformation on his face said it all.

So now he is in the process of putting together a high rez system. And when he left he threw the I-Pod in the trash can. The conversion is underway. And no I don't have the I-Pod he threw away. I took it out to the trash with the rest of the garbage that night.

So as far as we have come in all these years, it is safe to say that high end has not truly done its job, except for a very few of us. For if the realm of high end was to expose the possibilities of the music medium to a greater audience it has failed.

So in the final analysis it remains for us the hobbyist in high end to do our job, for the newbies. This endeavour is about the music, so much more than the gear. The components are there only to serve the music, as we perceive it. We all hear things differently and what is right for you, most likely I will find fault with.

With that being said however crap is crap. I-Pod,MP3,down loaded music, etc, you get the idea, does not serve music,but does serve the manufactuer, who proposes that this is music and reaps hughe rewards for polluting the ears of our children.

Stanhifi, does Vvrinc have you pegged or what?

I may have a cheap solution for some of you. I posted about this in the cpu forum earlier. It's a small program that can upsample ripped cd's to 24/96 pcm dvd video with a claim of resolution enhancement. Then you burn it as a dvd video, but play it back as audio only in a standard dvd player. When I first tried it, I thought it would be just another bogus program with exaggerated claims. But much to my suprise, it actually seems to work. I took several of the disks to my brothers place for a shootout. He's got a MA6900 with MGIIIa's and Sony's top DVD video/SACD player (999ES I think). Some of the disks were the same titles, ie my dvd disk upsampled with Diana Krall against his SACD of her. Sometimes the dvd's would sound slightly warmer or the sacd's would have better bass or treble extension, or visa versa, but the differences were minute. The shootout was basically a tie, which stunned all of us. Sometimes the upsampled dvd's are much better than the original cd's, other times by a smaller margin. But they almost always sound better. There were three of us listening and we all heard the same thing. And here's the kicker...even a cheap dvd player using the analog outs sound quite good....kinda like a poor man's high-end cd player. Any of my dvd players using these disks will out perform my McCormack SST-1 cd transport. If your dvd player outputs 24/96, then you can send it to a high quality dac for even better sound. The bad news is Phillips dvd players don't seem to like the disks, they cut out the sound every few seconds. However most other players have no problem with them, Sony, Panasonic, Onkyo, Harmon Kardon, to name a few. I don't even listen to cd's on my big rig anymore, they must be upsampled to dvd first. So if anybody has dvd burning capabilities on their computer, give it a try. I'll be interested to see if other people's experiences are the same. I'm new to Audiogon, so I hope my post isn't inappropriate. Just trying to spread the word about good sound for cheap money. Oh, and you can fit 2 hrs of 24/96 music on 1 disk. It's a free trial with a limit of 4 songs to a disk (no limit for full version). I recommend using RW's for the trial. DVD2one Audio Remaster is the name of it. Full version is about $60.
http://www.eximius.nl/index.php

Sorry guys, I was away having a life and listening to music instead of quoting the audiophile mantra..."All hail vinyl". I was into high end vinyl before most of you were sh...ing yellow! I also have owned enough high end gear to warrant the term "seasoned audiophile". I am usually ahead of the curve, so forgive me for stepping on your nostalgia. In the next year or two you will begin to read about how more and more veteran audiophiles and reviewers are becoming aware of just how superior CD/SACD/DVD-a playback can be!! One caveat, if you determine playback quality based on the worst recordings ever transferred to Cd...you win! If you have the taste and the persistence to seek out great performances on CD...well, I geuss you know how I feel. Meatloaf etc...definately better on vinyl...Sessions on Argo however...well, a thing of beauty!! Gee, no hum, clicks, pops, warps, rumble, feedback, inner groove distortion ...need I go on??

My solution was to get a DVD player that handles all higher definition formats. I spent 3500 (USD) (w/out my 12% discount) on the Denon DVD-5910. I get HDCD, SACD, HDAD, DVD-A, all with top of the line Burr-Brown DACs. Great price point for everything you get, plus it is supposed to have the best video quality on the market as well. Even when Blu-ray and HD-DVD come out, I can still use this for my old movies and to play the HD music formats until one of them gels out as the winner.

A real audiophile: (in Catholic order)

1. Believes Levinson, Pass, McIntosh, Von Schweikert, et al, are gods.
2. Curses the names of above gods when equipment blows up.
3. Buys cheaper on line (Sundays included) instead of worshiping at the store front.
4. Listens to his gear more often than he calls his mother or father.
5. Would kill any and all comers who would dare move the position of his speakers.
6. Would sleep with anybody (farm animals?) since he doesn't get laid much
7. Would steal his grandfather’s gold fillings to buy interconnects.
8. Shits on anyone who disagrees with his preferences of audio equipment.
9. (repeat #6)
10. Looks at pictures of some people’s multi-thousand dollar systems and drools.

In other words, he is just a regular guy.
8>(

What's a "real audiophile"?

Although my digital blows away my analog at this time, the statement Dave made is a bit silly, now ofcourse you made need to spend a hell of a lot more to make vinyl sound very good vs what it would cost to make a digital system satisfy, but it can be done, and Vinyl can and sometimes does sound better than digital, most do not have what it takes to get that sound, but those who do...man are they lucky.
BTW even though my vinyl is pretty bad as of now I still enjoy it and the chance to slowly improove my LP sound is very exciting and ultimatly what this passsion is all about, while I learn and imprrove the sound is alot of fun

>>When played back through a well set up system, both SACD and CD sound better than any vinyl ever has.<<

Well Dave I guess you've never heard a "well set up system" with a quality analog source. If you had, I doubt we would be reading your outrageous and ignorant posts.

Tell us Dave how you came to this conclusion which is contrary to what most real audiophiles believe?

lol - did it work Dave? I mean did you convince yourself? Or is that little voice still in your head saying "I could have better sound if I just had a TT" ;)

Just giving you a hard time of course.

When played back through a well set up system, both SACD and CD sound better than any vinyl ever has. Only poor transfers or incompetently produced stuff sounds inferior. I remember the clicks and pops...the warps...groove distortion...hummm...etc...what a pain in the ...well you get the picture. Nostalgia aside, most good universal players will provide a great listening experience.

I haven't read this whole thread, but started using an Ayre universal player 2 weeks ago. I wanted a nice cd player and thought the SACD would just be a bonus. My impression is that some sacds and DVD-A are like high def is to broadcast TV. I said I wasn't going to replace redbook cds, but have done some of that too. I had no idea how good SACD is. Maybe the novelty wears off after a while, but I'll foolishly buy them for now. A recorded violin now sounds like a violin. Some of these 50 year old $11 'living stereo' recordings sound like they were produced last week. Fortunately for classical music at least there's some selection to chose from. For those that have made the choice to bail - plse send me your SACDS.

Can someone please find some theme music for this thread, for the one with “greatest preamp...” and also "building turntable from Home Depot...”, please.

Susan Lucci has been begging me to get her on one of them.

Just wondering - has there ever been an age of certainty?

My take on the harddrive use has been to buy a Squeezebox2. I you haven't ever looked at one before, take a gander at www.slimdevices.com. I haven't settled on whether or not the Burr-Brown DAC inside the Squeezebox is the DAC I will use in the long run. So far so good, but since the Squeezebox has an optical out, I can always pipe to another DAC later if I want.

The COOL factor with the Squeezebox has delighted me. I really like being able to navigate my CD library without having to go and reload a disk every time I want to hear a CD. And the Squeezebox will play lossless formats like WAV and FLAC, so I can listen to quality recordings. What I'm unsure of is whether or not I can rip DVD-A or SACD to pipe over the data lines to the Squeezebox.

The technology still seems a bit experimental, but I sense that this is the future: the music companies deliver all the bits and sampling that they can muster to me over my high-speed internet connection and then I pipe that to my Squeezebox over my LAN to the room(s) with my stereo equipment to play music over as good a 2-channel or surround system that I elect to set up.

For now, most the industry focus on music-over-internet is on 'lossy' formats. This does not bode well for audiophiles unless the industry gets the word that we're waiting in the wings for hi-fi formats on either a pay-per-play or ownership basis.

Anyone else out there using the SB2?

Thanks. I have heard exactly the same thing from many people, which is I why I plan to head in that direction myself.

Not at all. I'm not saying it is the best sound there could ever be or anything like that. But in my most recent CDP history this set up bested my old Sony XA777ES and my old McItnosh MCD 205 changer. But the musicality is only part of the equation here. Because of how iTunes allows me virtually instantaneous access to my whole collection of music (plus), it has forced me to call many of my priorities into question. I do still value a high end presentation of the music I love, and I did audition some very good DAC's before I settled on the Prima MK II SE. But, the accessibility is really a revolution.

>best sound

So you feel you haven't given up anything sonically with this setup?

I have gone hard drive. I use a Mac laptop running iTunes, and a 500 GB hard-drive. WIth a high speed internet connection I get about 300+ radio stations and have about 600 CD's ripped onto my hardrive. I run this through an Audio Aero Prima DAC (which serves as a DAC and my preamp -- a nice tube preamp at that). and I am in heaven. This has totally revolutionized the way I listen to music as I now have my entire CD collection at my fingetipps--a scroll and click away. My CD's are in the attic! Best sound and access I have had in a long time and I am listening to music in my collection I haven't listened to in years.

I still have my redbook cd player and am extremely happy with it. However I continue to seriously ponder purchasing a universal player - despite the fact that I almost always choose music over video and I have separate setups. Why do I choose music? It sounds wonderful and can transport me away from the anxieties of the moment. However I continue to think about buying a universal player. I do not own any dvd-a. I own a few hybrid sacds. I own 2,000 redbook cds. If I throw away and stop reading my stereophile magazines would that stop the "want"? I am currently in the "I am not buying an universal player" mode. Most likely will be here for a while.

Some goners are saying get SACD, a top player is only $1500 and it will sound as good as a Wadia 850

the SACD players are going to get better and a lot cheaper because Sony are not trying to make money out of selling you the player, the real prize is your music collection,

Its 25 thousand dollars to convert your existing 1000 cd collection to SACD but more importantly you are locked into their new format for all your future music purchases.

Look at how many people ditched vinyl and over the years have gradually replaced titles they used to own with inferior cd copies,this is what the new format companies want you to do again.

I havent owned a record player for 25 years but I got one recently because there is so much music available for only a few dollars a copy

Imo it might be less than 5 years before music can be downloaded and replayed at the quality levels we have from todays formats and new cds SACD or whatever will go into decline but imagine how many cheap cds there will be when everyone switches to the new format.

The Major music companies have done nothing in the past to endear themselves (quite the opposite)so I for one will not be buying into their latest formats for a very long time,my only regret is for the artists ( but did they get a good deal? )
So for me its spend aprox 3000 on a cd player or dac transport get SACD quality playback from my existing redbboook collection and keep collecting vinyl and CD
As was said previously only when I go to the record shop and the vast majority of music is not available is it time to switch formats but then bricks and morter stores will also be obsolete,Tupperware style music parties anyone ?

For me, the nature of the uncertainty has shifted. After investing good money to have my SACD player modded, I now feel that what I really want to accomodate in my system is a hard drive as a source. This may have me going back to a separate DAC, which I'd really prefer not to do. I'd like to see some of the new breed of universal players support digital in, so that they not only play all discs but can handle hard disk input. Now *that* would be universal.

I think the hard disk as a source is an absolute freight train, which the high end needs to embrace.

Why does one format have to win? When I upgraded my CD player 2 years ago I was dying to buy a high-end universal player, LINN, MF, SIM, etc were all getting ready to blow me away. Unfortunately, for the most part all I could buy was re-masters of many of the titles I already owned. Without the music I want what is the point in a new format?

I decided to spend 2K on a nice redbook player and 500 on the dreaded iPod. Now two years later I would still do the same. I travel for work and I've gotten huge enjoyment out of having a big percentage of my favorite titles in my collection anywhere in the world anytime I want it. I've tried both ACC and loss less encoding. Given that I listen to my ipod on planes, trains, and automobiles, any loss in quality by going to ACC is indiscernible given the environment I use it in. Should I set a turntable up on my lap in 22C with a packed plane? With the way it's going the needle is probably considered weapon in the security line :^) Do I use ACC at home? Well yes.. not in my listening room but in my workshop, at the pool, and in the kitchen.

The point is that in today's world there is no one "right answer" we are far too mobile. I have two cars, each is for an entirely different purpose and do their job well. Why should one music format be enough?

It's no mystery... the titles will follow the mass market. In the 50's HiFi was the hot new thing, today it's HDTV and soon "HD" DVD. In the 50's people worked till 5 had dinner at 5:30, watched 1 or 2 shows on a regular basis and read a book or the "high tech people" listened to the stereo.

Today, most people are looking for convenience in the audio not higher res. Alternative to the mass market will alway be there, the choices will just be more limited. In the end all formats are good for what for what they do well... Embrace all the ones that work for you.

I pondered this briefly last year and decided that it's going to take so long for Sony or whomever to successfully launch a new format, it's safe to upgrade your CD player. I was more than satisfied in buying a McIntosh CD player, which make CDs sound like records.

it is both gratifying and frustrating to see that the thread i started in february 2001 remains relevant. for me: i've yet to invest in anything other than redbook and lp frontends, deciding to wait for the inevitable migration of high quality audio media to hard disk. if i live long enough.

p.s. I do think SACD and DVD Audio are gonna survive if k-mart starts sellin crap boookshelf systems that can read these formats.
As long as it can be had cheap, and in a convenient package that any idiot can operate it will survive.

I see a few people commenting on not wanting to buy a new format because of an extensive RED BOOK library, but hey didnt we all ponder this when RED BOOK came out? wondering if we should replace, Vinyl with 8-Track or reel to reel, then cassette, then CD, Vhs to Beta, then to DVD...it never ends, and its a roll of the dice, hell one day people are gonna look back at CD's as an antuiquated format just as Vinyl is in some circles.....cant stop progress right?

Life is nothing if not uncertain. Live. That means you will need good music for the trip. If CD are a thing of the past and you lost some coing along the way, does it really matter?

I bought a good enough CD player and spent the rest on vinyl. Or rather I PLAN to spend the rest on my vinyl front end. I'm not certain if I'll ever buy any more SACDs at this point. I figure 75 years from now, I'll still be enjoying my LPs. :-)

According to reports from CES in Vegas two new formats are on the horizon. SACD and DVD-A may already be dead ends.

We've just passed three years on this thread! Please don't let it die.

Sean - Forgot to menetion another company I use for LPs,CDs and the like. Most reliable and great selection of music. Link below.

http://www.euclidrecords.com/

Very easy to do business with.

Interesting that this thread is still highly relevant 4 years after its initiation.

For those interested in HT as well, I suspect the LCD/Plasma thing in TV's (a similar ordeal) and HDTV/digital TV will likely not be resolved for another 5-7 years.

Maybe in 10 years these technologies will mature to nearly their fullest potential, a clear "winner" will emerge, and we'll all be (relatively) happy for awhile. :)