Samir, Thats the best logic. |
It surprises me that people who were willing to pay $3000 to $5000 or even more for a cd playback system to get the best sound possible are not interested in a $1200 player that will give them clearly superior sound. |
I mainly bought the player for DVD/CD playback in a more convenient one box solution. The SACD was icing on the cake so lack of software right now didn't matter to me. If you are just wanting the SACD then it will depend on how much disposable income you are willing to spend on it. Once the players get down to the $400.00 mark there really is no reason not to at least try one out. |
I listen to the best possible sound all the time. Better than SACD, DVD-A, you name it. It is call live music. |
Interesting article. Many of the Japanese companies are working together to build other 1-bit equipment like amps, radio transmitters, video processing, etc. One-bit technology is not only better--it's cheaper--and it's use it growing.
http://www.edtn.com/story/tech/OEG20010216S0053-T |
Jsbail---my problem is not with the $1200 for a Sony 9000ES---it's with the fact that out of approx. 150-200 SACDs now available, there are maybe 8 (classical) that I would buy----many of which are of performances from back in the dark ages, and I'm not convinced all of those are worth resurrecting. To me that's not much justification for shelling out the money, especially with the whole situation up in the air as to what format will last. About a year ago, I bought a Wadia 830, and although there are more more expensive players around, it certainly can't be considered cheap. I hate to keep piling more and more redundant equipment onto the rack. I have expressed my feelings about the merits/failings of CD, SACD, analog, etc., under the heading "SACD vs. Analog". I'd like to get reactions to what I posted there. I think we've all reached a crossroad at which we can either sit down and wait, or make some move to keep the journey going. What sez ya? |
I am stunned at the response to Kelly's thread. I had dumbly thought that I was one of the few still stewing on this issue. Of interst to my situation are the posts that say use the 9000ES as a transport -w- an external DAC (to boost standard CD playback) and enjoy both worlds. The only problem that I still have is that there are very few SACD disks that really interest me. It is, IMO, the resposibility of the manufacturers (not the consumers "sitting on the fence") to make this format readily available in all types of music. Without plentiful source material to listen to in SACD, what is the point? I play a lot of old crappy sounding CD's on a daily basis, because they have the "music" on them that I want to listen to. SACD source material is like having only one pair of shoes - they get old very fast. |
Ok Dekay and 914nut, I see your point about no good sacd music. I needed a new dvd player anyway so its no gamble to me. I do believe the war is over and sacd has won, and we will see a lot of new music on this format. |
Jsbail: If I were interested in, or needed a DVD player (because I already have a DAC that I like the sound of) picking up the 9000ES would be a no brainer. If I were in the market for both playbacks - DVD/CD-w-DAC - (SACD would just be the icing on the cake). We have played less than 10 videos in 10 years, which is why DVD does not interest me. I would like to eventually use my CAL player, as a stand alone, in another system and will take a look at what's available then (as I would need another player/transport). Now to drive everyone crazy: Has anyone seen the Japanese (domestic) version of the 9000ES with the champagne front cover and case? There were a few auctions of this model on Ebay a while back and it was very striking (more so than a black box), IMO. I wonder if a dealer could order this version (which looked similar to the top of line Marantz model)? |
Dekay----I'm in the same boat as regards DVD. I can't imagine why anyone buys movies today, or even rents them for that matter. I'm now on digital cable and there's more stuff available, either HBO, etc., or PPV, than I have time, or wish to take time, to watch. I know there are music videos of classical content, but the few I've seen are so contrived I have no desire to watch them, much less to own them.
I think I'll probably hold off buying anything right now, and see what Sony comes up with in the next few months. I've heard rumors about an SACD player in the $500 range. It's gotta happen sooner or later.
As far as uncertainty is concerned, I think the thing that ISN't uncertain is that SACD/DVD will take over, just as CDs took over from LPs.(I recently read that Doug Sax Mastering is selling their analog cutting lathes and gearing up for SACDs, so LPs may soon be in their final death throes.) I keep hearing of chips being the truly next big thing, but that's probably a few years away and will be really traumatic for many companies and consumers.
Jim |
The reason people buy and rent dvd sotware is because it is superior to crap digital cable and has dd and dts,and in the case of the sony 9000 over 500 lines of resolution.I personnally do not like music in multi channel or the video.But if you ever experience a good looking and sounding setup,so called digital cable is like cable in comparison.the 9000 just made sght clas aa right next to the cal audio 2500,and if they counted sacd sound quality it would be a class above the cal player. |
Ears--- I think it's great that video has that importance to you. I suppose I'm very lucky in that the few movies I watch are quite satisfactory, to me at least, on my 19" TV set! In all honesty, I see very, very few movies advertised in which I have any interest whatsoever, whether watched on my set or on a screen as big as the side of a house, with detail like a fine color photograph. I've got enough obsessions already without adding video to the pile!
My only justification for switching to digital cable was for a greater variety of programming----primarily for Speedvision. Yeah----cars are one of my obsessions! Porsches specifically.
If I were into high rez video I would no longer be agonizing over the purchase of a 9000ES----it would already be in my rack!
Jim |
ah, hence the 914 nut handle,video comes a far distant second to audio for me also.But if my family wants to watch movies,i make the effort to have decent sound and picture quality.there are a lot of old classics on dvd also,not just the latest blockbusters.Although not quite a porshe i do have an oo lightning that i drag race and beat new vettes with.It is the most fun you can have with your clothes on.Phillips is supposed to have a car sacd player coming out,but i would not be able to hear it in this particular vehicle.Iknow what you mean about obsessions,i always need more than one hobby,audio is just one. |
I do not think there will ever be one great format so uncertainty will last forever. CD will be viewed by many as the last great format.
I think that CDs, HDCDs, XRCDs, Gold CDs, vinyl, mini-discs, DVD-Prologic, VCR recordings, CD-Video, Laser Discs, and 96/24 DADs will decline in the near future.
Growing in popularity is MP3, Windows Media, DVD-Dolby Digital, DVD-DTS, DVD-Audio, and SACD. We'll see more units with upsampling--even receivers. Probably next year there'll be something else (MP4?, Windows Media II?, 6.1?, 7.1?, quad?, Chesky's 6.0?). Interesting times. |
There's now just me and my Cornish Rex, Leeza, and she appears to be even less concerned about picture quality than I am!
Jim |
I'm in the camp with Trelja, Sedond, Samir, Snook2 and others who say "it's the software"-- right on! I've yet to see an SACD disc that I actually wanted to perchase. I have a great CD playback system already and 1,000 CDs that I really like. If SACD does take off, I would have no problem with setting a nice SACD player right next to my nice CD player. I don't see this position as "sitting on the fence"-- there's no software to buy! There seem to be some that still do not understand that up-sampling and over sampling, which has been used for years, are essentially the same thing. Look up the thread "Up & Over Sampling" from last summer. Cheers. Craig. |
.......yes, purchase is spelled purchase, not perchase-- sorry. |
I've said this any number of times: get yourself an HDCD compatible player Today! It's the only backward compatible format which makes all of your 16 bit CD's sound much better. There's much more 20 bit software available even Today than the competing "upgrade" formats. |
Craig, i've read the "up& oversampling" thread, articles posted by Muse, Madrigal, etc.... and probably a dozen articles on upsampling dacs. No suprise that different sides come down with different opinions on whether this is a semantic difference or not. I'll admit my bias by saying that I intend on buying one of these units and letting my ears decide if I like it better than my certainly outdated 5 y/o player. One real difference, though is that on some of these units, the upsampling can be switched out(as its on a seperate chip), and you can decide for yourself whether it's for real or BS. Otherwise I'm in complete agreement, I already enjoy my 1000 or so CD's and would rather spend further $$$'s on expanding this collection (dramatically). I believe the many above posters on the wonders of SACD, but 2 years into its release it doesn't appear very promising on the software side of things. |
Hello all. Put together my first hi-end rig over the last year with the help of Audiogon. I went with an older Wadia 6, 19 bit, got it for $1400, same chassis as the 850 & 860. Can be upgraded to 850 status by Wadia. But running direct with my new Aerial 7Bs and used Threshold T200 it sounds incredible! Much better than I had ever dreamed. I know there are many who bash the digital volume control for loosing information but this set-up is aural nirvana I kid you not! So much hidden detail is revealed. I'm in the process or rediscovering my 700+ CD collection. In my opinion, you should consider a used hi-end cd player with really good transport mechanism (Teac in the Wadia 6, 850 & 860, Mark Levinson uses Philips I believe) then later you could upgrade the player or just add a more current DAC. Just a Newbies $.02.
Be seeing you. |
Hi. I'm returning to audio following a two decade hiatus. I wish to extend my gratitude to all of those who've posted to this thread. I've had the opportunity to read all of these posts without interruption and would characterize them as stimulating, provocative, and exciting! This is a passionate group. It's been a privilege to entertain the thoughts presented by each of you. Long live audio. -Sam |
Prfont; I agree with your position, ie let your ears be the judge. I do think that improved, up to date implementation of the up (or over) sampling technology, as well as improved "handling" of the signal in the analog domain is responsible for the improvement(s) in music quality/character when using these devices. Cheers. Craig |
There are several interesting technical papers on the dCs site, http://www.dcsltd.co.uk/, and one specifically addresses their position on upsampling. |
They sort of invented it, so you can imagine what their position is. But they are very smart folks and all of the writings are worthwhile. Check out one of their product manuals online--awesome! You can switch upsampling on and off with the MSB Platinum and there's a big audible difference, for what it's worth. |
cornfed
my solution
beef up the redbook setup
I went with an EVS Millenium II dac (incredible piece)
upsamples tp 24/192
and a Teac (Wadia) transport
I also bought an inexpensive ($300) Toshiba DVD/DVD-A player
I have done direct a/b comparisons on Steely Dan's new disc
it's a toss up
why go the universal route when I can enjoy DVD's today and the DVD-A. I doubt SACD will ever have music I like and $25 a pop when I can get new discs at $9-12 each, forget it.
so hedge your bets and spend little now
and see how it plays out
tom |
In an age of uncertainty, I buy gear compatible with established formats in the marketplace - that is to say, those formats which are "universally available". I haven't attempted a 7.1 system, DVD-A, SACD, etc - not enough software to justify the expense. The cost to get into all of the latest formats (latest preamp for 7.1, added speakers and amplification, and the source units to make it work) vs. the benefits obtained is too expensive. I find that staying in a 5.1 system has given me much more bang for the buck. I like high quality used gear or closeouts for this reason - I get expensive sound with not so expensive prices. |
SACD and DVDA are crippled at the starting gate
1. People are not going to replace their CD collections.
2. Source material is too slow arriving in the marketplace.
DVD source material moved quickly into marketplace, I think
because of the DVD rental market.
3. Teen-agers won't fork out the cash - huge marketshare
4. CD replaced vinyl - audio quality didn't figure in. QED |
Over a year and half later from when this post was originally started and you could ask the same question. |
On the eve of 2003, WHERE'S THE MUSIC?
With all disrespect, how many music lovers are satisfied with the assortment of titles available on SACD (or DVD-A) as of December 31, 2002?
It reminds me of a joke that the owner of Wilson Audio supposedly used to tell. He claimed that he sold a $150,000 WAMM system to a well-to-do farmer in Nebraska who only owned 15 albums, 6 of them by Conway Twitty... and those were the good ones.
Personally, "Tony Bennett Unplugged" and Eugene Ormandy conducting the Cleveland Orchestra aren't my idea of great music in any format. Last time I looked, EVERY SINGLE ONE of the SACD titles available was a similar old chestnut from the Sony/Columbia archives, aimed squarely at casual listeners.
So far, SACD versus DVD-A is shaping up to be the war of elevator music formats! |
Conceivably, with CES 2003 now open for business, some further clarity for all of us will be realized. In the meantime, the Audio Aero Capitole Mk. 2 is a compelling alternative for the full enjoyment of our vast CD collections. Run directly into a power-amp- it is remarkable. Watch for their new SACD player- it could be a monster !! As for SACD software- we can only hope that the catalog expands exponentially and preferably not only with titles officially sanctioned by the OTIS ELEVATOR COMPANY.. |
All I know is that I am willing to bet....
Vinyl will outlast CD, SACD, and DVDa.
LOL
KF |
its beginning to look like sacd is going to survive. it doesnt take a lot of money to try this format. the low end sony dvd/sacd/cdps are one way to economize.
i got a ns500v for $161 delivered, sacd sounds fine, dvd is fine, and redbook cd is XLNT! i read that sony upsamples the cd to dsd and thus avoids the filtration problem that happens when you filter near the passband. whatever, i am a happy camper. this is the best sounding cdp ive ever had in the house and the cheeeepest ive ever had. im not replacing all my cd inventory with available sacds so im avoiding that expense.
im building the sacd inventory SLOWLY, and now i can buy dts and dvda if i want because they have compatible tracks.
.......regards.......tr |
Someone recently said that thousands of years from now archaeologists will be able to play LPs with a pine neeedle, while being baffled by assorted silvery discs! |
Ern has a valid point. Was just reading about NASA's "old" computer files archived from Mars Voyager mission. No one is able to read them anymore. The machines that *could* read them have all been trashed ("who needs this old junk anymore?") the programmers are either retired/unlocatable, or are now dead. So these valuable data files are already useless. The scientist doing research was finally able to find file printouts & then had to pay people to re-key the data using newer machines & formats. No sense in archiving that either; before long those software versions will be outdated, & the files will again be unreadable because technology marches on & people don't think to re-reformat until it's too late. You have no idea how much important information has already been lost due to the "digital dark ages". Egyptians & their papyrus - an idea who's time has come back again. |
Hi
My opinion is that new standards and new technologies generally bring advantages in terms of quality, but initially create the problem you mentioned. Well I decided to come down the fence and for $ 400 got a Philips 963SA that plays SACD, CD 24/192, DVD etc. I figured thet even if SACD does not work out I have an incredible CD and DVD player that sounds better than my Meridian 500/566 combo($ 3000+). At $400 all the problems you mentioned tend to fade away. To cut short, the secret is perhaps not to invest a large amount of money in waporware products. |
Hello: Although I have purchased a number of SACD's and a few DVD- A's, I am disapointed in the audio quality of most of them. I am also noticing a number of disturbing trends. 1. Everything is now being released in "surround format", and this reduces the sonic quality of two-channel SACD playback. Has anyone with VU meters noticed the sub-sonic garbage level visible before the music starts. This must be harmful to the overall sound, if amps are attempting to reproduce it!! 2. Look carefully at the origins of the SACDs you buy. Very few are true DSD all the way through. Many of the master tapes are DAT 48Khz, or analog, or are edited on non-DSD equipment! 3. The vast majority of pre-amps, amps etc that can handle surround formats are oriented towards video and home-theatre, with many features un-needed and undesirable for pure audio setups!! The current issue of TAS features Harry Pierson raving about an audio surround system made up largely of hardware not yet available to ordinary mortals (i.e., non professionals). Have you tried to buy a Meitner processor??!!! Have you got the over 30 grand to buy the DCS Verdi...etc. etc. It would seem that truly proper reproduction of the best SACD and DVD Audio releases is only availaable to insiders in the industry and well-heeled audio critics. And this is a revolution??? I think they'll be growing coconuts at the north pole before most audiophiles are enjoying this "great revolution"! |
I owned the sony SCD-1 when it first came out...I own a Levinson 360s DAC and 37 transport now....I've since listened to possible replacements at my local audio salon and at home...short of possibly $20K plus gear...buy the Levinson and forget about the future...enjoy the present!! |
I agree entirely with Irishdog. The multi-channel discs out there, with the possible exception of Telarc's, are miserable. They are mixed poorly, and often sound no better than synthesized Pro-Logic. Along these lines, many surround recordings have that 360-degree quality that is completely unnatural and harkens back to the days of primitive quad or some of the early DTS releases. Music, by and large, comes from the front, and most, if not all, multi-channels force the rears to do the same work as the fronts. They do not carry mere "ambient" sound, which is what would make it more interesting, to actually "hear" the hall. Many of them, it is true, are not original DSD recordings, but rather re-mastered PCM sources, which, in some cases, have been upsampled, but nowhere near the level that would make a difference to anyone. And then there is the debate of whether DSD is actually better at all than high-resolution PCM (176.4 Khz/ 24-bit). Some of the very best engineers I have spoken with still swear by PCM for recording and mastering and only transcode to DSD for the sole purpose of creating a marketing buzz (viz. SACD). And then there is the other problem of whether you are actually hearing a DSD signal at all. Many receiver/amp/processors convert to PCM before sending it out, and some "universal" players do the same, so we are all back where we started from. Finally, there is other problem that the music industry is using the 5.1 standard, which was designed for movies, and there is a lot of debate of whether this is the appropriate set up for surround music. Some, like Chesky, are advocating for a 6.0 set-up without a center, but with "side-rears". Either way, I have been really disappointed with the bulk of the surround discs and have only been impressed with a handful of SACD stereo releases. |
Libor35 states the current condition of audio format lunacy extremely well!! I have around 500 redbook CD's; of that amount, about 80% are vastly superior to any DSD, HDCD or High Res PCM discs I have! The technology used to make a recording dwarfs in comparison to the ability of the recording engineers and how they apply their craft. Most new format discs remind me of what I refer to as the "New HI-FI"...they just don't sound natural, like reall instruments playing in a real acoustic space. |
I just purchased a CAL CL-2500 DVD player with the goal of improving the quality of my CD playback. I had heard the CL-20, and was very impressed with its capabilities as a CD player.
I was at first excited about its ability to play DVD Audio discs and HDCD. It turned out I was mistaken on the HDCD -- the CL-20 and CL-10 both support it, but on the newer CL-2500, CAL seems to have rejected HDCD support. And DVD Audio appears to have changed to an incompatible 24/192ksps format in the few years since the CL-2500 was built. No matter, there were really only about 1-2 discs I was really interested in, compared to the 400-500 CDs in my collection. SACD seems more prolific, but there are still only about 3-4 that I would buy if I had a player. Even HDCD, which is more common than DVD-A or SACD, has only a handful of titles that interest me, which I of course own since HDCD is merely a special encoding on a standard CD. None of the special formats offers enough titles or enough benefit to cause me to even consider compatibility as a factor in choosing a CD player.
You should all be concerned that the "audiophile" formats may never get off the ground, because music distribution is headed towards internet distribution -- which means lossy digital compression and lower sample rates and resolution. Not only that, but the promoters of the formats are sabotaging their own efforts -- SACD because it is proprietary, DVD-A because they changed the format mid-stream to something that existing players, and DVD-Video players, cannot play.
No, unless you are comfortable letting the published catalogue of the "advanced" formats dictate what you listen to, neither format is viable yet. I don't predict them becoming viable anytime soon.
Just look at HDCD -- it's a completely compatible format, but like SACD is proprietary and requires a license to record or to decode. It's been around for years and is still in very limited use. Personally, I hope it dies a quiet death. It does not seem to offer higher potential for quality than standard CD, but sacrifices the sound quality on incompatible players.
I am very pleased with my purchase...despite the fact that the new player recognizes neither SACD nor new-format DAD, it makes CDs sound really good. For someone like me who listens to a wide variety of (sometimes really obscure or unpopular) music, improving the sound quality of all my albums is much better than making slight additional improvements on a couple of titles. |
24/192 upsampling for redbook and sacd for new format seems to be the audiophile ticket... i would buy a reasonabley priced sacd with digital out to a 24/192 upsampling dac.
i would not dump alot of $$$$ into digital till the dust settles.
wether sacd will catch on as a format it is too early to say ( look what happened to BETA and S-VHS and records )
the mass market drives the final decision of format.history shows the way to cheaper/less fidelity format - sad but true.
time will tell...
mike |
I have a pretty good digital set up and around 1200 cd so I will continiue to build my redbook collection. I just bought my first TT so this should keep buisy. Why should I buy into SACD when there is maybe 15 or 20 titles, and why should I rush out and buy a SACD player when my current system blows it away! I will give it a few years and the money I would have spent on the new format is going towards more cd and vinyl!
Happy Listening! |
I have asked myself the same question. Having a transport or player that can play multiple formats is a partial solution and basically, that is what I'm waiting for. I'm holding off a new puchase until more mfrs come around. The new player from Musical Fidelity seems intriguing (but not at $6500!). The other problem of course, is the ever increasing obsolecence due to evolving technology, which I'm afraid a one player box with multiple format capability does not (at least sufficiently) address. My two year old Parasound sounds pretty good, but somehow I have the feeling it already is outdated.
Quite a dilemna when you think about it. |
I think you're right on. We seem to be in a time of change when more universal players are coming out and SACD seems to be getting a solid hold on to the market (of course, others will disagree with this observation). But like you, I'm holding out for now to see what players will be coming out. This will frustrate the manufacturers, but it's best for the consumer to be more diligent nowdays before plopping down lots of cash for something that may soon be outdated. I'm guessing we're reaching the plateau of redbook perfection and 1) the price/performance ration will improve in redbook and 2) the high-rez formats will take on more relevance and 3) the digital music thing... |
I do not understand what the difference is? |
Redbook wins!! There are only ~2,000 SACD titles available today - nothing in the world of music. If it were 20,000, it would still be a nit. Given the weird stuff I listen to, I don't expect to convert any time soon... |
I agree with Bluechriss that for people with alternative tastes that redbook is going to be the standard for quite awhile. The CD burner revolution for small labels and bands is another stronghold of what's going to be longevity for this format. I am looking to upgrade my player and I am only looking at players that have strong redbook CD playback. I could care less about the useless fancypants formats. I don't listen to audiophile dreck and if I want to expand my Dylan or Stones or any other classic rock catalog, I'm gonna do it through Sundazed or any of the other LP reissue labels putting out killer vinyl right now. I got the Sundazed Stooges LP reissues and I don't see Elektra putting those out on SACD or DVD-whatever anytime soon. I find it annoying that Stereophile is ready to give high rankings to players "in their expected format", meaning that SACD players that sound like garbage with redbook cd's get class A. Wotta joke! Here it is a couple of years past the beginning of this thread and here I am saying, I'm coping with redbook very fine thank you by not getting caught up in any hype. I will let the equipment sort out the resolution and leave my expectations at home. Never really twigged to CD's till the last few years and now the system improvements and remastering have gotten pretty good for my tastes. Sure things could be better but that's inherently the way that we are. Never satisfied? Welcome to the human race. Just don't let your expectations overwhelm the fact that things are pretty good. I can get records that I used to have to look years for (and yes there are some things that annoy me because they aren't available, Tim Buckley's Starsailor being one of the more incomprehensible gaps in the catalog)and between LP's and CD's I do pretty damn well. I'll worry about the so-called digital wars when the dust clears. For now upsampling helps me out and I get what I need. |
Well, I agree with Letch that when I read a review for a multi-format player that has received kudos for one format but not the others.....I turn the page. I also agree with him that the sound of the CD's in today age represent a quantum leap from when they first came out in the 80's. The sonics from that first period was well....it left a little to be desired.
However, that stated, I am excited about the new formats IF they represent a considerable improvement in sonics. I do think that audiophiles will step up to the plate if they are convinced of the merits of the new technology. That should translate into a driving force for a broader distribution of titles.
But then I suppose a counter argument could be made with the fate with MSFL's abandonment with LP's. The quality was second to none but the criticisms (from high and low sources) is that the title selection was not up to snuff. Hence Mobile fidelity is no longer making LP's... |
quality sound from digital source components is far more dependant on the software than visa versa. a first generation cd player sounds infinitely better with a recently mastered cd than a new cd player using the same music mastered even 5 years ago.....there are thousands of examples with the major labels alone...the improvements on the hardware side have been oversold as remedies to a consumer willing to pay anything to get satisfaction from their hi fi. |
I, too, agree largely with Letch. I go for good vinyl first, then redbook CD if it's not available. Unfortunately, that means I buy more CDs than I really want to!
As for SACD.... well, I must admit to having bought two remastered titles, both Dylan ones. On my Arcam, the CD layer sounds really great (much better than original redbook release), so I'm not ready yet to buy a SACD player, although I am curious to hear what the SACD layer sounds like on a SACD player. |
