Class "A" sound, as related to Stereophile.

Dave (Dlcockrum), your post that appears just above my previous post makes an excellent point IMO.  Well said!

Best regards,
-- Al

Thank you very much Dicockrum, I don't know how I got locked into speakers costing thousands of dollars. That just goes to show what happens when there are no more places to see, hear and compare different speakers. I might try some of those; if you see any that you think can be sold for what I paid, I would appreciate it if you let me know.



Enjoy the music.

all media written or spoken or shown on tv intended to earn money for the number of words ordered, written and published. it has nothing to do with quality and it has nothing to do with reality as well. all you can use media for is to know what new toys are there.

I have custom speakers, and I had the crossover engineer to pattern my crossovers after Thiel. I chose the drivers and put them together.

While you can go to "Parts Connection" and put together some good speakers, if you want speakers just for you, a crossover engineer is required.

I have no idea what so ever, how my speakers compare to others; it has been just that long since I heard other "audiophile quality" speakers, and I'm dying to hear other good speakers.

I have 70 watt Primaluna Mono Blocks, they're tube, as I guess all Primaluna are. My listening room is average, not big or small. As far as preferences, as long as they fit the technical requirements they're fine. If any one has any other recommendations I will appreciate them.


Thank you.

Let me tell you guys about my present speakers; they are 3 way; heil air motion tweeter, 6 inch mid, 12 inch woofer 92 DB efficient, they reproduce the electronics without any sonic signature of their own; the better the electronics, the better the sound of the speakers, which I assume is the case with any speaker. Any change of anything will instantly be detected, because you will hear the sonic characteristics of the change.

Although I don't have any complaints. (can't complain if you haven't heard anything else for ages; speakers are not wives, they're meant to be changed)

Thiels are one of the last speakers I liked. BTW I absolutely do not recommend custom speakers because of complications in regard to cabinet, but speaker kits are fine.


Happy listening

I just discovered something today; this is not a "hobby" for me, although I can't think of any other word. If it was a hobby for me, I would want to do, what reviewers do for a living; they review equipment forever.

Today, I was listening to me Technics 2 track reel to reel, and enjoying the music, while at the same time evaluating my speakers. The sound stage was perfect; although the speakers were in sight, there didn't seem to be any music emanating from them; they seemed to be some kind of decorations for the room.

The sound stage just magically appeared and had nothing that would connect it to the speakers; it was as if the electronics had magically turned into audio, because I couldn't define the sound in any kind of way that related it to a speaker.

This is what I set out to get, and this is what I got.

Music with the 2 track as the source was superior to anything else in my room; a record I bought in 1974, and just about wore out, that had been recorded on tape, revealed sounds I never heard before.

I had to go to the basement for something, and I still could hear Carmen McRae through the floor and she sounded good.

While I was contentedly listening to music, I fell asleep in my listening chair (sometime I can't get to sleep in bed) When I woke up, I asked myself, "Do I really want a new speaker?" The answer is no, but I must hear some more speakers.

"Perhaps it's that I listen closer than 8 feet and the drivers can't sum properly in the near field or perhaps those slow crossovers don't knock the drivers down far enough out of the pass band for me."

Hi viridian.  It's the former.

Best to you,
Dave

You have good taste Viridian, but I already knew that.

My crossover is a 3-way, 4th order crossover, T-Type; but I didn't design it.  A very eccentric engineer designed it.  This was quite awhile ago, before computers were as common as they are now, and I watched him work with a computer that had "solid" geometric shapes in color; a cone was one of them, and they had numbers on them.  He was using two dials that merged these shapes how ever he wanted to engage them.

I have never seen anything like that before, or since.

While I know you would be able to put it together, it took me forever to get a cabinet that looked decent.  If you can't hire a cabinet maker, don't even think about it,


Enjoy the music.

Hi viridian,

You are more than welcome to visit anytime you are in the Houston area. Seriously.

Never heard 1.5s, but I would imagine that the design was the best that could be done with the size and cost targets. I would never describe the sound of my 5i’s or the 2 2s I just sold to be slow. Not even close. These models were praised by almost everyone as having exceptional transient response and superior macro/micro dynamic performance

I am more of a fan of the Thiel 2 2, 3.5, 3.6, 5i era. Jim Thiel went to extremes to make the 1st-order crossovers work with these models IMO.

Indeed the 1st-order crossover is tough on drivers as the crossover allows them to see frequencies significantly outside of their stock design parameters. That’s why Jim took great care in driver selection and almost always used drivers modified to his specifications. Even the tweeters in the 2 2, 3.6, and 5i are custom made to Jim’s specs by Vifa to provide extraordinary excursion.

Jim published a white paper explaining it all very thoroughly. I can’t find a link to it on the web but I do have a hard copy. He used both a slanted & rounded baffle (the ones in my 5i’s are made of a heavy, inert marble/composite material) and carefully-engineered electrical circuits in the crossover to delay the signal exactly the right amount to ensure time and phase alignment between the drivers AT A SPECIFIED DISTANCE! of around 8 feet from baffle to listener. Thus, they do not work well in near-field environments. My 5i’s are 8 feet out from the wall to the front of the baffle, 8 feet apart from tweeter to tweeter, and 8 feet from my listening position, which is 8 feet from the wall behind me.

orpheus10, I can’t understand how the crossovers in your speakers could be modeled after the 1st-order Thiel crossover if they are 4th-order as you say?

Best to you both,
Dave

Viridian, as I recall, back in the day, Altec was one of my favorites along with Klipsch.


            http://www.klipsch.com/products/la-scala-ii-floorstanding-speaker



            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs7YlqUSH1k


Enjoy the music.

Dave, I told the engineer I liked Thiel speakers; as I stated he was eccentric, after I picked out the drivers, he designed the crossover. As an example of his eccentricity; I told him I was going to change the value of a capacitor, and he told me he would crack my knuckles if I did; I left the capacitor alone.

If you know the design of a Thiel speaker crossover, you're quite a technician. I'm sure you could build your own speaker, just make sure you got a good cabinet maker lined up before you start.


Enjoy the music.

Dave, are there any capacitors that can replace "Black Gates"? Time is what has to be in the evaluation for the answer to that question. I replaced all my electrolytics with Black Gates a long time ago, and all those old components function like new.

I know Nichicon Gold might be comparable to Black Gates, the only question is time. Since they're all I know, I'll have to settle for them; also they're much cheaper.


Enjoy the music.

Hi orpheus10,

From Stereophile June 1990 review:

"The CS5 crossover is itself also heroic. Constructed on a single hard-wired board, it incorporates 87 elements realized with 114 components. Only—only—55 elements are directly related to the first-order high- and low-pass filter functions, the rest being used to fine-tune the system's time response. The two midrange units, for example, are electrically "moved backward," by the equivalents of ¾" and 3/8" respectively, to bring their acoustic centers into the correct alignment. All coils apart from one are air-cored, and the capacitors are polypropylene and pure polystyrene types, the latter custom-made with tinfoil plates and copper lead-out wires. The internal wiring is a polypropylene-insulated solid-core type."


I have seen a picture somewhere of Jim Thiel holding this crossover.  The visual impact of this crossover is breathtaking.  Will keep looking.

I don't think that I (or likely anyone else alive) can design something like this.

Best to you O,
Dave 

Dave, my crossovers have one for each driver, and I used Jentzen Silver Z- cap, except for the woofer where I use Solen Caps; all of that to get a speaker that does not exist.

I've seen the Thiel crossover, it's a monster. Since I specified the big Heil Air motion transformer, he had to design according to that; they gave him a lot of latitude in regard to tweeter crossover frequency, and Thiel speakers were the closest to anything I liked in regard to sound. Now I've got speakers that have no sound, but the sound stage is similar to Theil, meaning the speakers I heard disappeared; state of the art ARC was used for the electronics, so that certainly helped.

Of course I would never attempt to design a crossover; you got to know when to hold, and when to fold.


Enjoy the music.

Dave, I just listen to music without thinking about my speakers, but when someone said speakers are the most important thing in a rig; that started me to thinking about my speakers. When I tried to evaluate them, there was nothing to evaluate; they're like those lizards that change colors; they take on whatever color the source gives them, and that includes interconnect wire.

That is what I set out to get originally, and that's what I got.

I recall some B&W 801 or some other number in the 800 series that sounded huge, although they were normal sized speakers; I might like them, but they require a much larger amplifier than the one I got. I would like to hear some other high quality speakers, but that might require spending enough to buy some speakers.

I think I will leave well enough alone and enjoy my nonexistent speakers.


Enjoy the music.

Dave and Veridian, these are the Heil AMT's from "Wkipedia"; this tells all about them


        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Motion_Transformer

I use 6 inch Vifa for the midrange; they developed some new 6 inch midrange speakers, so I got them for an easy swap. The woofer is 12 inch Pioneer, nothing special, just quite solid and musical.

Good plan o. Enjoy.

Best to you,
Dave

Is there a list of qualities that outlines for a listener / review reader how to somehow identify in real world terms, the critical differences between a "class A" and "class B" speaker? All variables aside?

Many years ago I heard a pair of very expensive speakers in an audio salon in NoCal, which were so dynamic and detailed that they proved to be oppressive. I literally got seasick and dizzy listening to them. Came close to puking, actually.

I’ve been starting to think that with audio, once you’ve attainted a certain level of gear, music, and listening sophistication, "less is more." Unless, perhaps, you’re into Metal or other headbanger music. Or simply a masochist.

Just a little to add about custom speakers. I DO recommend them from reputable makers. There are a lot of very nice speaker systems made of unbelievably good drivers.  You can get as involved as you'd like. If you are like me,  you'll design every bit and let the cabinet maker deal with the sawdust. :)

I really wish every audiophile would make at least 1 pair of speakers in their lifetime, it would totally change their outlook and demystify a lot of it, but that won't happen so speaker makers and esoteric accessory makers will continue to charge exorbitant amounts. 

In any event, if you are interested, here's my blog post to help you get into it as much as you'd like.

https://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/2016/05/custom-speaker-making.html

Best,

Erik

I also want to make one comment about Stereophile. I like their electronic reviews much more than their speakers. They have some really variable quality reviews and biases that often make me shake my head.

At least John Atkinson has stopped taking pictures of hotel carpets and curtains when he goes to trade shows, so maybe there is hope.

Those are very good recommendations Eric; I've looked at what a number of those people have to offer, and it's all good. Going with someone who has all the test equipment, expertise, and cabinet making facility's is the best way to go.

Parts Express is fine for putting a speaker together for bedroom, or entertainment room, but not for your A-1 rig.

I agree with your post Dave; once you get it together, it's about fine tuning. I have a right channel problem; the right side of the sound stage is emphasized. It took me two years to determine that it had nothing to do with the rig, it's the room. I know it's better to correct that, than simply turn up the left channel in order to compensate.

In regard to which is most important; source, or speakers; the source is most important. Some will say that 60% say speakers, therefore they must be right; I say that means 60% of the people are wrong.

That can only be right if you prefer to listen to the speakers as opposed to the music. It's very hard to help anyone in regard to speakers; all I can add to that is there are many different sounds within "Stereophile's" rating system, and if you're a serious music lover, and listener, you have to rely on some "high end review". I've been told that some of the best speakers are affordable, so that's no longer a major problem.

I hope I've responded to everyone's posts.


Enjoy the music.

Hi o,

My recent experiments with vibration control/dissipation have been a real eye opener. In retrospect, I realize that I have seriously neglected investing time and money into this important aspect of our hobby/obsession, feeling (in ignorance) that heavy, rigid, mass-filled equipment stands firmly spiked to the floor along with a massive sand-filled platform underneath my turntable was "good enough".

I am far from "optimizing" system-wide vibration control, but far enough into it that I am convinced that many of the perceived sonic shortfalls of our existing equipment can be largely ,alleviated, or at least audibly reduced, by addressing the vibrations inherent in our components, our rooms, and our listening environment.

http://www.stereophile.com/reference/52/index.html#7gKzV9vFIbL28AQH.97

I have invested less than $1k in vibration control products thus far and the positive effect is more pronounced than any $1k I have spent on anything in audio (other than room acoustical treatments and music). Significant gains in fidelity can be made for the price of a cheeseburger once you understand what does what.

BTW - this is an area where the source is the highest priority.

Best to you o,
Dave

Dave, I'm in the process of building a table for the TT to record on the concrete floor in the basement; no vibrations there, but upstairs on hardwood floors, that's like a springboard for a TT..  Soon will be my first time to seriously get into room acoustics.

Thanks for the info

o,

Don’t be fooled by the concrete slab. My whole house is on a concrete slab and everything from my TT to my SACD player to my preamp to my power supplies to my AC enhancer to my amp to my speaker cables has benefitted significantly from additional vibration isolation. And don’t forget about dissipating the internal vibrations generated by your TT motor, CD transport, and the transformers in your components.

Next for me is speaker isolation.

Best to you o,
Dave

Dave, have you been through room acoustics? Can you make specific recommendations? I've seen different things, but I don't know what does what.


Thank you.

Hi o,

I had a tremendous mid-bass hump in my room.  Spent many days rearranging speaker and listening positions and measuring the resulting frequency response, all to little avail.

I did some research on another website (something asylum) and found a lot of good information from Jon Risch. He made a strong case that bass traps should be made of 2" thick rigid fiberglass completely sealed to the corners so that it actually traps the overabundant bass waves.

So I found a local building supply warehouse nearby and bought 24" wide X 2" thick rigid yellow fiberglass panels as long as they had (6' long maybe?). This is not the loose pink stuff you buy at HD. It is very dense and rigid.  I bought frame material, something like 2" wide plywood board from HD to make the frame completely around each panel and built them the exact height of my room from floor to ceiling.

After the frame was added around the entire circumference and fiberglass panels, I used spray-on adhesive and a staple gun to attach fabric that I bought cheap to the panels.  I found soft butyl rubber garage door gasket at the local Ace (the kind that is used for sealing the bottom of garage doors) and trapped that all the way around the panels (no gaps) into the corners of the room behind my speakers. I had cut strips of wood to brace them into the corners every 2 feet vertically.  You can see pics of these on my Virtual System page. 

I also built 2' X4' panels of the same 2" rigid fiberglass using the same framing and fabric technique, but not sealed, and placed them at  the first refection points halfway between the speakers and my listening position.

Worked like a charm. My audiophile friends could not believe the improvement.  Total cost was around $500 and it took a few days to build them all.

Best to you o,
Dave     

Dave, you really have a beautiful "man cave'; Empire Cartridges were my favorite back in the day, they looked and sounded good.

Did that corner treatment solve all your problems? I'm not sure if I'm up to building one now, are they available for installation?

Without a doubt, you got a swell place for enjoying one of the best rigs I've seen.


I really enjoyed perusing it.

Hi o,

Thanks, but there are some better rigs here on Audiogon, at least more expensive ones. I like to think that my system is an example of how to get superb sound using tried and true older equipment and optimizing the inputs and outputs vs spending huge on the latest equipment without addressing the latter.

I don’t know that you ever solve all of the problems with a pre-built room, but I was fortunate to have been able to start with a dedicated room that was very close to the Golden Ratio by taking out a wall between two 12’ X15’ bedrooms, giving me a 15' wide by 24' long room with a 9' ceiling. I won’t admit to having this in mind when we bought the house, heh, heh. I also found that the "Rule of Thirds" for determining speaker and listening position worked perfectly for my situation.

The acoustical treatments definitely took the mid-bass boom away and the side panels helped a lot with imaging. It is hard to believe how much excess bass waves affect the tonal balance, detail retrieval, soundstaging, and imaging of a good system for the worse.

I also built some floor to ceiling traps of the same design, only half as wide, for the corners behind my listening position but they sucked way to much life out of the sound. I used Shakti Hallographs in those corners instead and am very pleased with the improvement in image specificity.

There are lots of bass traps for sale, but I am not aware of any that actually seal to the corners. They are mucho expensive. You can try, as Jon Risch recommended for a poor man’s solution, to stuff plastic garbage bags with rolls of Owens Corning fiberglass insulation, but I tried that and it was not anywhere close to the traps I built. Ugly as sin too.

Synergistic Research sells a product (Black Box) that they claim tunes the room so that traditional bass traps are unnecessary, but I have no direct experience with it and it is costly ($2K per) and 2 or 3 are needed for a large room like mine.

Billy Bags sells a subwoofer type product that you hang in the upper corner of the room that is claimed to negate standing bass waves. Expensive also .

You gotta either pay to play or be willing to do some work.

Best to you o,
Dave

Viridian, those are the same exact tweeters I'm using. The magnetic field can snatch a screwdriver out of your hands. It was in the middle 80's when I began with the drivers and the crossovers, and only recently did I finally come up with a cabinet that I liked; that's probably why speaker manufacturers don't use them.

Dave, I use "rug cores" in the front corners and they work; 12 foot long cylinders made out of "hard paper" trap bass frequencies and stop everything from resonating. I know they can't possibly work as well as what you pay for, but they came with some new rugs, and they were free.

Poverty is the mother of invention.


Enjoy the music.

Hi o,

Maybe it’s just me, but this dialogue seems to be a repetitive series of ask, recommend, dispute/dismiss.

I am puzzled as the thread started with discussions about Stereophile Class A+ vs A vs B components. The listed price of the LOWEST priced component for each component category from the 2016 Recommended Components:

TT: Class A+: $30k A: $6k B: $2.3k
Tonearm: Class A+: N/A A: $1600 B: $600
Cartridge: Class A+: N/A A: $2k B: $450
Phono preamp: Class A+: $5k A: $1500 B: $750
Disc players: Class A+: $2k A: $400 B: $1200
Speakers: Class A+: N/A A: $16k B: $1700
Preamps (active): Class A+: N/A A: $4.3k B: $ 1100k
Amps: Class A+: N/A A: $3k B: $1600

So, if one put together a system with the LOWEST priced components in each category, the cost at list price would be:

Class A+/A (where no A+): $62k
Class A: $35k
Class B: $9700

This does not include cabling, stands, room treatments, vibration control, or any other costs aside from the core components themselves.

Regarding the premise in the OP, why would anyone waste a dealer’s precious time auditioning Class A+/A components if they have no provision, or plan for provision, to purchase such equipment? Is that useful? Is that even appropriate? The precious few B&M dealers that remain are trying to feed their families from the profits of actual sales of equipment and services.

Make no mistake, I am not wealthy. Thus, I spend time learning about other’s experiences with affordable gear/tweaks (instead of wasting my time and, even worse, a dealer’s time auditioning components that I will never be able to afford), seeking their advice, offering mine, and actually implementing the recommendations that fit my needs, thus far to outstanding benefit.

Much can be done with little money and the right attitude as you have found by upgrading electrical components in modestly priced gear. Yet, there are also vital and affordable sonic frontiers regarding room acoustics and vibration elimination to conquer that do not require modification to a designer’s carefully crafted component circuitry and that may yield much greater gains in sound quality.

Best to you o,
Dave

Dave, there is a very good reason for your confusion, and you stated it quite well.

Tech Talk is the name of this forum; that means we know a thing or two about how to get class "A" sound out of less than class "A" equipment.

I will give a limited example of how we get Class "A" sound from components that may have began as class "C" components, but that's taking it a long way; it's easier to turn Class "B" into class "A"; but when you think about how much cheaper Class "B" is than Class "A"; that's still taking it a long way.

First you must know what Class "A" sounds like; while I know because "high end salons" existed when I went on my "pilgrimage" to those places to discover and differentiate between the different classes. I don't know how it can be done now.

But that is the beginning, as an example of some of the things I have done; I made my own interconnects; Belden had some wire they sold to radio and TV stations they used for interconnects, that was a copper and silver composite; they sold it in 100 ft reels. (they no longer sell that to individuals, I wonder why not?)

New wire for tonearms is a good tweak. There are many useful tweaks for TT's that can be found on this forum that will bring them up to "B" if they started out "C", and that's a big leap in price. You will have to bite the bullet on cartridges.

Of course you have to be a technician to attempt my latest project. (those monoblocks sound so good now, that I'm in no hurry to upgrade the capacitors) which is not only to change the capacitors, but to modify the cabinet the unit came in.

There are limits to what I can do; TT tops out at Class "B"; Class "A" for amps and Pre's that began as Class "B". When you add up the money for interconnects, it comes to quite a bit; fortunately I have enough of that Belden wire to last a lifetime, but "Vampire Wire" sells some good wire, and everything you need to "roll your own". That concludes everything I can think of for the moment.

We're on the same page, and I concur with your list.



Enjoy the music.

Fair enough, o.

I apologize to you as it seems that I have diverted your intention of discussing/sharing electrical modifications to components away to other aspects of the hobby. I hope that you feel, as I do, that all is not wasted as we both have shared helpful ideas with the other.

I find that a trip to a fine concert hall is a better benchmark than to an audio salon to establish an aural memory reference, or to a church with good acoustics and non-amplified vocals and acoustic instruments playing, perhaps also gaining some spiritual reference material in the process as well.

For the record, I am not adverse to electrical mods. I am, as I write, impatiently awaiting a used Modwright 5400ES SACD player (due to arrive tomorrow) with every imaginable upgrade. I just lack the knowledge and soldering skills to tackle DIY electrical mods beyond soldering connectors to cables.

Best to you o,
Dave

Dave, I had just gotten into the high end and I had to buy some of the components I auditioned, plus all the other stuff one considers a necessity after getting into the high end; I wasn't wasting any one's time. But what I did then is impossible now, because there aren't enough high end salons.

I have no idea how someone starting out can know, or hear in their heads the differences in the classifications of sound. Yes it matters because Class "A" sound yields so much more satisfaction; it's not a status thing if you're a very serious music lover.

Without a doubt, most of it is far too expensive for the average person to afford, but as you pointed out, class "B" is a lot cheaper and can come so close to "A" that it's hard to tell the difference.

Tech-talk is the forum for someone with a beer pocket book and champagne taste, because there are ways to accomplish this, and one does not have to be a technician, but you have to learn how to solder, and if you're a fumble fingers, know your limitations.

Presently I'm in that phase you're in, dealing with "room acoustics". Before I attempted to build my speaker, I went to the library and read everything I could find on crossovers.

When I went to the engineer, I impressed him with my knowledge and was able to communicate what I wanted. Believe me, those people don't like to waste time if you don't know what you want. I mentioned that to let anyone who is serious about getting the best audio possible without the champagne pocket book, know that it requires work.

The library is no longer necessary, I have "google". The first step is to find what "google" knows about room acoustics; combine that with your experiences and go from there. Room acoustics is very scientific, no smoke and mirrors, that's why those rug cores, which were very tall cylinders that allowed the bass frequencies to enter but not leave, worked.

I enjoy communicating with someone who is as precise as you Dave.


Enjoy the music.

Dave:
Thank you for your response to my questions. I’ve been at this hobby for many years. One of the greatest joys (besides the music of course) is that I keep learning. One of the biggest variables that I’ve neglected to some extent, is the room itself. For example, and in retrospect, all the fiddling with cables I've done was not the most effective way to spend my time and money. :)

This is a very enjoyable/educational thread- thanks to all who have contributed.
Paul

Hi Paul,

Glad to help. I love cables too, but I found it hard to choose cabling with my room acoustics out of whack.

I did a lot of research on room acoustical treatments and consulted with several vendors.  It was going to cost a lot of money. Then, I became so frustrated with that idiot Ethan Winer crashing my threads trying to convince me to buy enough of his treatments to cover every square inch of my walls that I simply built my own based on Jon Risch's recommendations.

More is definitely not better here. I even have several DIY panels left over because they overdamped the sound in my room. I have two bass traps (one in each corner behind the speakers) and two side panels, each at the first reflection point on either side wall and that's it.  YMMV.

I do recommend ASC if you are not a do-it-yourselfer and have the cash.

Best to you Paul,
Dave

Dave, I don't mean to be contrary, but no matter how enjoyable, a trip to the concert hall, or hearing sparkling voices singing in a large beautiful church is, you are dealing in the realm of impossibility (or close to it) in regard to creating this in your listening room.

In regard to DIY and room acoustics, the first thing is "define" what the room treatment has accomplished that makes your listening experience so much more pleasurable. Although our "bass traps" look as different as night and day, they both trap standing waves.


          http://www.acousticsciences.com/products/tube-trap


Notice how those tubes resemble "rug cores". That is just one example of DYI in regard to room acoustics. The improvements delivered by correcting room acoustics are astounding; they are like night and day when compared with, and without.

No Dave, you haven't "hijacked" my original thread, which is basically about achieving "Class "A" sound as cheap as possible. More correctly you have re-directed it to room acoustics, which might yield more improvement in audio than some other things.

Those room treatments in the link above are stunning, and they work. There may be ways to duplicate them if funds are not in hand to purchase them.


Enjoy the music.

Hi o,

Do the best audio equipment designers use other manufacturers’ equipment as a benchmark for the sound of their own designs or it is live music?

I don’t think that the best audio reproduction is that far away from the real thing. More likely that the process of (and techniques employed when) using microphones for recording and multi-step mixing and mastering make this goal seem unobtainable. The best recordings/masterings played on good equipment in the an acoustically-improved room sound eerily lifelike. However, I have never heard a two channel system that will properly recreate realistic spatial reproduction of a crowd clapping during a live performance (microphones are omni-directional).

Many ways to skin a cat. I am honestly happy that you are pleased with your bass traps. Really.

I agree that Acoustic Sciences Corporation (ASC) is among the best out there:

"I do recommend ASC if you are not a do-it-yourselfer and have the cash."

No doubt that the ASC products designed for your or my room and installed/tuned by their experts would put mine to shame. I just didn’t/don’t have $3-$10k to spend.

Best to you o,
Dave

Viridian, the closest to creating the experience you described is in a movie theater; a listening room is a long way from a movie theater.

I had a Phase Linear 4 channel, that was interesting; it created some ambiance, and had features like a "dynamic range expander", that did just that; but when it comes to accurately recreating music, I prefer the way were going, which requires a lot of expertise, but it can't be beat in the small area of a listening room.

Until we complete the journey were on, we wont know how far we can go. I'm enjoying the ride in the meantime.


Have fun along the way.

The Stereophile rating system has become a joke since John Atkinson took over as Editor. That rating system used to mean something when Gordon Holt was in charge. Back then, Stereophile was dedicated to serious high end gear regardless of cost, and only the best equipment earned the vaunted Class A rating. Now NAD and Marantz components are deemed Class A. The fact they had to invent Class+ after realizing how ludicrous it was to publish actually good high end gear alongside NAD, Sony etc only proves that. There are still good staff there, but it’s just another money making business now.