I have noted a number of warnings about cheap Chinese fake cables on this site but curiosity led me to the Aliexpress site where I found a number of presumably fake big name cables from predominantly Cardas, Nordost and Siltech at about 15% of the USA or Australian price. I found Cardas Clear Light interconnects at about US$100 and decided what the heck let's give them a try at that price. Before buying I asked the seller the daft question as to whether they were genuine and got the reply that they were an OEM and constructed the interconnects from genuine Cardas cables and connectors. They arrived in a plastic bag rather than the Cardas box , not a great start but the cables looked real, and when connected, much to my surprise, they sounded really good. After 100hours or so burn in they sounded great and better than the Nordost Quatre Fils I had been using. I then took them to an Australian hi end dealer who sold real Cardas and asked rather ingenuously whether my cables were the real deal. The dealer would not commit but agreed to compare them to the real thing on a set up costing at a guess around A$100,00. Neither I nor the sales person could tell any difference so he then tried them against the Cardas Clear. Then there was some difference, not extreme but subtle, and certainly IMO not worth the price difference even if you bought the genuine Cardas Clear Light. So are these cables really fake and even if they are given my experience they are well worth a try. Maybe I'll try Nordost Odin or Siltech 770i next.
@zalive, sadly I found your words to be all too true. I still remember all the hassle of trying to source genuine high purity OFC copper speaker cables on eBay.
After trying to trawl through the maze of varying prices and some non too convincing pictures and fine print descriptions I gave up went to Amazon UK and read through the reviews there which eventually led me to some transparent sleeved BasicLine15 metre 2x2 5mm set from Germany (DCSk) claiming to be 99.99% saueurstoffreie.
I have no real way of knowing whether they are the genuine article but they are reassuringly heavy and do have that reddish copper colour.
By the way, beware of Sonarquest. I found out they don't stick to their own specification - they confirmed to me they now use berylium bronze instead of pure copper for EU Schuko plugs, yet they didn't update the spec on their web page. They claim they use cryo treatment, however after finding out the false spec I'm not sure I trust them. Furthermore, they call this a 'material upgrade', which is a ridiculous claim - any bronze is far inferior to pure copper.
So when you find out the brand owner downgrades its products and keeps false specs, what can you expect from fake or no-brand market? That they keep their word?
On the good side, I checked Viborg plugs too and underneath the plating is red copper (I cannot check the purity of course). There are occasional discounts on those plugs and when it's so it's a good value product. Also, all my recommendations to genuine Star Line RCA from ebay, this is high quality stuff.
Korea has counterfeit products too. Fake products are made in the the US, and many other countries. Counterfeit products have been produced for thousands of years all over the world. Demand is what causes supply.
A lot of the the wire and connectors sold today by US cable manufacturers come from China. US retailers assemble them and mark the price up by up to 1000%. Keep buying USA cables!
@zalive, sadly I found your words to be all too true. I still remember all the hassle of trying to source genuine high purity OFC copper speaker cables on eBay.
After trying to trawl through the maze of varying prices and some non too convincing pictures and fine print descriptions I gave up went to Amazon UK and read through the reviews there which eventually led me to some transparent sleeved BasicLine15 metre 2x2 5mm set from Germany (DCSk) claiming to be 99.99% saueurstoffreie.
I have no real way of knowing whether they are the genuine article but they are reassuringly heavy and do have that reddish copper colour.
China (ebay, aliexpress...) merchants audio products are full of false specifications. If you want to check yourself, buy stuff declared as copper (RCA sockets, power plugs...), then check yourself whether it's really copper - piece of metal saw will reveal what's underneath the gold plating (or rhodium, silver, possibly even copper plating). Copper is read and it's pretty soft, too. I checked myself some RCA sockets and power plugs and I found brass underneath, judging by the colour and hardness. And that's true not only for brands (brand fakes) but also for non-branded stuff.
So it's not quality when they don't even make using a copper conductor just because alloy like brass is cheaper to make. We're not even talking about purity of metal or its processing (like declared cryo treatment lol).
I'm not entering into all brand faking aspects, because, frankly, cheating on brand is not my concern. However cheating on common people like me certainly is. whether it's about faking a brand or not.
Moral or ethical or ethical considerations when it comes to Audiophile sales techniques?
Since when?
No one EVER claims that their product is better than anyone elses.
Never.
And why not?
Because that would mean having to prove it, having to back it with facts and data if challenged.
Because that might mean making enemies.
Because the best you can claim is superior construction, better more durable materials, better support - but that doesn’t really cut the ice much with the price obsessed consumer does it? Especially not with fancy overpriced wires.
No, it's far better to imply some quasi mystical quality using terminology evoking the various Nordic legends as you go. How about Thor's hammer next? Don't think that's been copyrighted by Marvel (Disney) just yet or has it?
Irony of ironies, the established snake oil cable salesmen are now begrudging the new kids on their block. It’s getting like the audio equivalent of ghetto turf wars.
Cheerfully peddling everyday tat to the gullible at the highest dollar just like the fashion industry, especially the big dollar sports branch. And then oneday someone puts out an equivalent product, steals your logo, and exposes you for what you really are... You can call it market forces or chickens coming home to roost if you like.
There’s a reason why Led Zeppelin never took anyone to court for plagiarism. Pot calling the kettle black.
Seriously, is there any cable peddler who is willing to claim that there products are sonically more accurate in ANY way?
You misunderstand. I agree that on ethical or moral issues everyone has a right to an opinion and that is what I said. However I question the validity of opinions with regard to fake cable quality or sound without having seen or heard the cables in question.
Making a fake Teo Audio cable would be pretty darned tricky.....
The closest we've come to that, is someone who took one apart and re-terminated it and called it as simply 'used'. It was immediately visible as being re-terminated.
The list of things one has to do to make a real one is easily over 15 items long and each is custom lore, that is easily visible as all wrong, in a fake. One can't even source some of the materials for said attempt, at all.
When I started this thread I mentioned that I had the chance to compare fake Cardas Clear Light interconnects with the real thing and could hear no difference. I have since tried the fake Nordost Odins and find them to be better than the fake Cardas cables. I have no idea whether they sound anywhere close to the real Nordost Odins as I don't know anyone who has the money or is silly enough to spend A$30,000 for a pair of interconnects. I even doubt if Australian Hi Fi stores have these cables in stock given the impact on their inventory costs. What I do know is that to me the cables sound excellent and I would be very surprised if the excellent Holo connectors are not genuine.
Leaving the ethical issues around fakes aside as a separate issue to the quality and sound of the fake Chinese cables as everyone has a right their opinion on ethical matters. However it appears from many of the responses on this thread that many, no lets say most, contributors feel they have a right to express an opinion on the sound of these fakes based on pure bias and ignorance without having heard, seen or bought any of these fake cables. akg_ca above cites a number of links to support his/her negative views but I suspect no first hand experience. Even these links are in some cases based on no first hand experience or worse are from the Audio industry itself which has a clear vested interest in maintaining the inflated cost of genuine audio cables and therefore being very negative about the copies.
The only opinions which IMO matter are from those who have heard the fake cables in their systems. I note that most of the contributors in this category, like myself, are positive about the value for money of these fake cables and even one contributor who has bought and dissected the cables seems impressed with the quality of the fake Odins.
I don't know if there will be many more contributions to this thread but it would be nice if they were based on actual experience rather than bias, heresay and ignorance.
ignoring their obvious illegal and unethical practices, there are a buzzilion threads out there highlighting the crap construction here’s just a sampler highlighting all the the junk build rip-offs and why they comparatively perform like crap.
I’ll take Chinese ’fake’ OFC copper (99.95% copper or the higher purity 99.99% copper) cables anytime of the day over extortionately priced strange hybrids be they interconnects or speaker wires. I have absolutely no need to be deceived by ’genuine’ manufacturers anymore.
Seriously.
If someone wants to decry fake cables then let them present some evidence that their own are superior in performance. It shouldn’t be hard should it? Resistance induction and capacitance are all easily measured yet strangely NEVER EVER mentioned by manufacturers and dealers. Ask yourself, why not?
This is nothing like the fake headphone scams where the similarities are largely only cosmetic. Or cheaply made computer parts such as Power Supplies, RAM or SSDs. Sometimes too many corners get cut.
On the other hand some Chinese goods can actually be of high quality. I’ve had several ’unknown branded’ phones from China and they rivalled from my iPhone 6s Plus in performance apart from inferior camera quality and lack of updates (which I didn’t need as I don’t keep them for more than 2/3 years anyway). One budget model even bettered the iPhone in battery life and screen quality as it had an OLED screen which Apple didn’t adopt til much later.
And all of this at less than 1/4 of the price. Great value for the consumer I’d say.
Back to the main point I’d say if manufacturers argue that Chinese cables are a scam, then let them present some or even ANY evidence that their products aren’t a FAR FAR bigger scam.
Overpriced cables remain the oldest and greatest scam in the already dubious world of domestic audio retail.
With perhaps rare exception, they are not from the same manufacturer. Cosmetically they look very similar, but when you open one up, they use cheap materials. They are nothing alike. You are gullible to think differently.
That's usually the case, the "fake" cables are off the same manufacturing line using the same materials, just without the inordinate amount of mark-up and profit. When you consider the idea of getting ripped off, you gotta wonder who is really doing the ripping off.
Well, inside the cable is silver wire (which is was supposed to be.) It has a smudge of silicone, so pretty sure that is not the normal spec. The craftsmanship and finish are impressive. I won't have them installed until next week, but they definitely look the part.
I (unknowingly) got a set of what I believe to be fake speaker cables from an auction site. The quality is on par with other cables from Awdio ####. There are silver and copper strands, just like there was supposed to be. The cable ends are spot on. The braiding, the wire loom covering, cable junctions...all of it is on point. I would be fairly confident in saying that they came from the same line that makes them for the mfg. I just got a couple sets of interconnects today, five days to get to me from China. They look spot on. I will take a look deeper internally to see what they are constructed of underneath.
I bought last week a pair of Odin 2 XLR from Aliexpress. Clearly fake but sounds very good for the money. I replace an old synergistic apex and odin 2I sounds better, clearly In bass punch and definition. Keep warm sounds off my DAC denafrips, pre ARC ref 3 and power ARC ref 110 and LUMIN A1. I bought another one. I connect it between DAC and pre. When the new one arrives I’ll test connecting pre and power.
All I know is that the day they (Chinese?) successfully make fake Synergistic Reserach active shielding cables/ cords, that’d be the day I’m looking into making my own cables or buying factory direct... so sad.
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!
Haven't read them all its just too much nonsense but from a quick scan nasaman seems to be the only one who gets it.
Everyone's talking about counterfeits and fakes and its all beside the point. For all we know these may very well be legit cables - legit at least in the sense of being same materials, manufacture, etc. Just not legit in the sense they are being marketed legitimately with respect to trademark and other property rights we take for granted here in the West but are so universally disregarded in China.
Ted Denney III on the other hand, so far as I know all his wire is hand made right here in America, in California, and a lot of it by the same guy who has been building them for many, many years.
Anyone who has built anything high end audio related, one of the first things you learn is every little detail matters. Just one reason DIY cables are such crap. Clearly what the OP is talking about is not crap. It seems to be indistinguishable from the originals. Therefore, either it is indeed the exact same thing just taken from production and sold outside approved channels, or the OP, et al, can't hear.
My bet is these cables are the real deal. Just cheap. Because the companies involved, instead of doing the hard work of learning to build something good enough to be built right here in the USA and still compete on price, have decided to farm out production.
If that happened they're the ones being ripped off. Which is just fine with me. Only adds to my respect for Ted Denney and Synergisitic Research, for refusing to play that game.
Fake, clone, copy, imitation or any other name for that matter, those cables do work when you connect them to your equipment. Some of them ( like in my case) outperform highly touted U.S. made reference cables. The seller informed me when asked that they were a copy. Let’s say i’m happy with my $225 cables that replaced a $500 pair of cables. Just so we are clear, I’m aware some of them are real bad.
Welcome! I share your joy in carefully selecting Cabling for every system.
I, too, never (knowingly) purchase Audio junk-sourced to china. Not enough quality control nor vetting for me. It is no secret that some Cable companies secretly purchase the bulk materials from china as mentioned above. Worse, these same companies allow manufacturing out of the states, then bring products back in country. Tara Labs was popped a few years ago on this very practice/subject. Audioquest, Cardas and Wireworld may be guilty of their respective newer cable offerings.
I really like the Audioquest Storm Series Power Cords, for the record.
Prior to any purchase, ask questions , do your homework and research these manufacturers. Happy Listening!
I purchased what I believe is a fake Furutech power cord with fake Oyaide 079 AC plugs while in Shanghai last year. At the time I didn't realize it was fake since I purchased it at a "hifi mall" which sold all types of high-end speakers and amplifiers which I'm pretty sure are authentic.
There was one stall that sold 2nd hand power cords and speaker cables (Siltech, Synergistic Research, Krell), and I ended up getting a Furutech Alpha PS-9 cord. Upon checking the Furutech website there's no Alpha PS-9 cord and the AC Plugs have no "Oyaide" brand printed on it. The same AC plug can be had on eBay for $10 upon checking. The sad news is that it sounds pretty darn good and was my 2nd favorite power cord.
Upon realizing this I've ordered an authentic Furutech power cord from eBay and authentic AC and IEC plugs from Chris at VH audio and will compare it to the "fake" one when I have received and installed it.
Can't talk about cable fakes...but in the guitar world it has been known for years that there are tons of fake Gibson Les Paul's out there. So much so, that the well known brick and mortar stores here in the US have sold these as real for years!! These very same fakes are so well made that unless you take the guitar apart, you would never know! Problem is that the fakes are many times sold for the same price as the real item! One of the reasons that I will not personally buy a new Les Paul. Presumably the fake cables are sold for a fraction of the real items price...which brings one to the old saying.." if it is too good to be true!"
BTW, anyone know about the fake cartridges that are being sold as the real deal??? Like fake Benz'es, Koetsu's, Clearaudio's etc..?
There's a seller on ebay describing his China cables in the description box and he is comparing them to Car Axles. Made of the same material as CV Joints. I kid you not. What in the world does a car axle have to do with audio cables? And he has sales. Its frigging unbelievable. The Chinese they have good fakes, in-between fakes, and god-awful fakes. But they're all Fake. Take your pick.
I make and sell professional cables on ebay. Your absolutely wasting your time and money buying Chinese counterfeit cables. I have cut open Amazon and Chebay cables and found 2 strands of hair thin wire wrapped in paper. Look at the advertisings closely. It most likely has misspelled words throughout. Terms like Fashion OCOCC, OC-COCC, NP-OCOCC and ive even seen GAGA-CCOCC are RED FLAGS. Nowhere is the actual awg listed or the maker of the the cable. Some guy named wang in his flipflops made them. The Chinese love a good sucker. Buyer Beware. These Chinese sellers are a plague on the ebay community and I for one would love to get rid of them.
Almost forgot Ive seen a lot of counterfeit Rean and Neutrik products coming out of china. These are 2-3 dollar Items. What do they have to gain by copying dollar items is beyond me.
There is no grey area here. Counterfeit goods are illegal. If you use counterfeit goods you are also an infringer, and admiting it on a public forum. Doesn’t matter how good you think the counterfeit goods sound - you are contributing to lost jobs and supporting breaking the law.
Well, the consumer's attention has never in history been in such voracious demand as today. The sheer number of sites tracking everyone's online activity is bewildering.
I guess the consumer has responsibilities too, but at the end of the day we all want good value. Which is why Amazon is king right now. Just wish Mr Bezos was more willing to share his success with his colleagues. Never mind.
nice subject, we all buy from time to time fake or imitation products and in the end we wonder why we did not purchase original from the start. We are not rich to spend money like this. The good scenario is that nowadays a fake product will behave 70%-80% at best compared to original one but it is not genuine and ethic wise is not correct (reasons well expressed on all above comments). On the other hand today all products, be original or fake, have a decent quality at least. I do not have experience with fake copper made cables but avoid any Siltech imitation, they do not come even close.
There is a difference between a Foreign company using inexpensive labor in China to assemble or manufacture products using materials and methods supplied by the Foreign company in their own facility AND a Chinese company producing its own products with its own materials, methods, facility, etc. However, China is not shy about acquiring methods, materials, etc. any way it can, including espionage. Japan, on the other hand, produces great products. They always did. There is no comparison between China and Japan in that respect.
Err...half the UK audio industry has moved production out to China without any adverse quality control issues.
It's the implementation that counts. We used to hear this crap about Japanese cars until it sank in that they left the British made ones for dead when it came to QC and reliability. Ditto for motorbikes.
In fact it can be argued that British manufacturing, what's left of it, has improved dramatically because of this direct competition.
As for the quality of these goods, well there is always the acid test - listening. No wonder some cable makers / sellers are so troubled - their little racket party has been gatecrashed.
The Chinese probably can't believe the idiocy of westerners paying such prices for copper cables, or for polyester football shirts for that matter.....
Counterfeit cables not only are of much lower quality, but anyone caught selling them are subject to a Lanham Act lawsuit. eBay will not advertise them if told they are counterfeit. AudiogoN will not advertise them. Buy this junk, if you like, but I can tell you first hand, it will not perform as well. The exterior may look the same or similar, but if you cut one in half, it exposes the low quality of the product.
@mikeybc , err sorry for mentioning this, but you realise that even a bone fide Cardas cable will sound the same as 12 gauge, right? Or maybe they're not fakes after all.
Why do you think cable manufacturers only gently, very gently IMPLY and SUGGEST that their products might be better than the norm?
I have never seen any cable ever advertised as offering better performance. There might be a reason for this too.
For cable manufacturers to decry Chinese fakes must be the greatest irony in audio.
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