Cartridge question

seems to be a pretty good TT (until you get the bug to move up).

https://vintaudio.pt/yamaha-yp-d6/

Signal to noise ratio: better than 70dB
Wow and flutter: less than 0.035% wrms
Tonearm: S-type static balance
Effective length: 222mm
Overhang: 17mm
Suitable cartridge weight: 4 to 15g
Headshell: aluminium die-cast plug-in type

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I would NOT buy any ’spherical’ stylus like you mentioned

at least buy ’elliptical’, but preferably buy an advanced stylus shape: Line Contact/Microridge/Shibata/SAS: they cost more, but last much longer, thus over time not so costly. And, they track at lighter tracking weights, make more groove contact, thus less wear to your LP’s grooves and the stylus itself, thus stylus lasts much longer.

AND, without a doubt Sound better, deliver much improved imaging, ...

Microridge typically lasts twice as long as Elliptical, thus paying twice as much (or less) initially is actually the same or less money over it’s life. Get all the advantages now IF you can scratch up the $, or wait a bit longer to save more or sell something.

• Spherical / Conical - 150hrs
• Elliptical - 250hrs
• Shibata/Line contact - 400hrs
• SAS/MicroRidge - 500hrs

https://www.sound-smith.com/articles/stylus-shape-information

For excellent Imaging: I prefer both wide channel separation, and importantly, tight channel balance, I recommend this cartridge if it fits your budget

https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/cartridges/type/moving-magnet/vm540ml

If too high price, then this one isstill microlinear stylus (however: less channel separation, wider center balance)

https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/cartridges/type/moving-magnet/at-vm95ml

elliptical stylus $99.

https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/cartridges/type/moving-magnet/at-vm95e-h

keep in mind, eventually you can buy ’extra’ headshells, and have alternate cartridges mounted, i.e. MC/MM/Mono ... If you ever move to a different TT, get a Tonearm with removable headshell, and they will fit that tonearm.

 

@rocky1313 - I see a couple of conflicting views in the posts above

• support for Sherical
• support for the more advanced stylus profiles

So it really depends what side of the fence you are leaning toward - DETAILS or MUSICALLITY

• a sherical profile is not able to get into the groove details as much as the more advanced profiles
  • lack of details can be interpreted as being more musical, which is why many people gravitate towards them
• BUT, the more advanced the profile, the more they are able to extract finer detials
  • BUT,they require a lot more attention to detail WRT cartridge allignment/setup
    • but using some type of mirrored protractor, you can achieve very precise allignment/setup
    • which will deliver stunning details and imaging
• a happy "medium" might be the Shibata profile or even an very good eliptical profile that provide musicality with improved details

For many years I used eliptical, then changed to a Denon D103 with a sherical styus profile, which delivered excellent musicality.

Then more recently I had the D103 modified by Soundsith with an Optimzed Countour Contact Line profile stylus and Ruby Cantilever. This provided a noticeble improvement in details and imaging but it took myself and a much younger pair of eyes about 2 hours to setup correctly

Of course, it's not that simple - with the more advanced profiles you will need a better phono stage, but I found the rewards were worth the investment

Going forward, I would rpobably opt for a Shibata profile, simply because it is not as demanding from an allignment/setup perspective and would still provide more details than the sherical stylus..

Hope that helps with your descision

Regards - Steve

 

 

Depends on which ADC. If it's anywhere in the XLM series, it's no contest.

Surely the right answer is the one you like the best, and not what weirdos on the internet say?

elliptical, my favorite ever

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649954227-shure-m97-xe/

discontinued. IF 10 hours is true, IF not damaged, then it is a good price and a terrific sounding and performing cartridge. I like Shures's optional damped brush, which is why I have had Steve at VAS install an advanced stylus on boron on my Shure V15Vxmr body.

....................................

my comments are based on many various cartridges over the years (I/m 74)

I’ve got 3 TTs going now; 5 tonearms, 4 active, and 5 semi-active cartridges in rotation now.

my experience:

MC does produce a bit better results than MM, it is worth all involved IF you have the interest and $ to spend. My favorite is AT33ptg/ii. In fact it lasted over 750 hrs, You need proper alignment skills to get that performance and life from advanced stylus shapes. and when worn, AT sold me a new replacement cartridge at half cost trade in program.

Advanced Stylus do produce better imaging, great musicality, track lighter, last longer.

Stiffer Cantilevers do perform better, especially bass.

Elliptical, get a body with interchangeable stylus: Stereo; Mono; perhaps 78, elliptical, upgrade to advanced stylus shape in that body .....

Dear @rocky1313  : You own a TT and 3 cartridges, so thwe first step to your question no one but you already have it:

 

listen to each one of those cartridges looking for the " best " overall quality level performance that goes with your MUSIC priotity levels. It's your room/system and no one here or elsewhere knows nothing about but additional and at the end it's you who must live with that room/system quality levels.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

viridian

"I need to be educated about the “track lighter” part of this."

I made a misleading and incorrect statement about Advanced stylus shapes tracking lighter when related directly to tracking force set for the cartridge.

you are correct, tracking downward force required has to do with compliance: cantilever suspension/cantilever stiffness/weight of moving internals .... things I don’t know about.

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As a matter of fact, the AT33ptg/ii tracks at 2.0 g. heavier than my prior Shure’s and AT favorites.

Current Cartridges: (covid era left me toooooo much time alone and some otherwise unspent money).

AT 14SA, shibata 1.25g; sep >27db; balance 1.0db

AT TR485U linear 1.25g; sep >31db; bal 1.0db

AT440ml micro-linear 1.25g; sep >30db; bal 0.75

Shure V15Vxmr micro-ridge 1.25 sep >25 db; bal 1.5db

(broke original beryllium, now boron)

Shure 97xe elliptical 1.25g; sep >25db; bal 2.0db

Grado Mono Elliptical: 1.5g

Goldring Eroica LX MC, ’gyger 2’ 1.7g; sep >25db; bal 1.0 db

Sumiko Talisman S Sapphire Tube, van den Hul 2.0g; sep > 30db; bal 0.5db

AT33PTG/II MC micro-linear 2.0g; sep >30db; bal 0.5db

AT33PTG mono body, had VAS make boron advanced ’p’ stylus 2.0g

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Advanced Shapes: Due to their shapes’ larger contact surface, the resultant effect on the grooves and itself is ’lighter’ in terms of wear.

i.e. all 3 types: IF same downward tracking force:

1. spherical least contact surface, most wear, most likely to jump out of the groove. we used to tape pennies or nickels to keep them in the groove.

2. elliptical more contact surface, less wear, longer life;

3. advanced stylus shape (any, some slightly more) even more contact surface, less groove wear/less stylus wear/longer life.

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Trackability: very dynamic music or test records were designed to document/measure trackability related to newly achievable lighter tracking weights.

Shure’s (both discontinued) elliptical 97xe and V15Vxmr Microline both tracked at 1.25g, and passed the trackability tests. Both of these channel separation >25db; channel balance 1.5db.

My shure V15Vxmr body now has two alternate stylus: Jico SAS on Boron, optional brush, not damped; and one I had Steve at VAS make me: bought 97xe body with broken stylus, he put boron cantilever with advanced stylus shape he calls ’p’, thus I kept Shure’s optional damped brush, and the stylus fits both my 97xe body and V15Vxmr body.

 

 

 

 

Dear @viridian : You are just rigth: VTF and stylus shape are different concepts.

 

Several years ago Ortofon left very clear why they suddenly and especially in its MC models changed to way higher VTF that in the past because the MC audiophiles made and ask if that heavier VTF makes higher damage ( than normal VTF ) to the grooves or to the stylus tip and Ortonfon answer was NO and made the overall explanation.

Ortofon MC Diamond and Verissimo, both its top of the line, runs at 2.5gr.-2.8grs. VTF with Replicant stylus tip.

 

So it’s whith out sense or stupid to think about that " wear " on the grooves due to those two different concepts.

 

R.

viridian

"

• Posted by jcarr (M) on January 7, 2005 at 17:41:40

  In Reply to: Re: The virtues of a spherical stylus posted by Tetrack on January 7, 2005 at 08:13:53:

   

I have some stylus articles that Namiki published when they introduced the Microridge (also known as microline among other names) profile, so let's look at the manufacturer's figures.

A 0.7mil spherical stylus (18um radius where the stylus contacts the groove) has a contact area of 30.5um(sq.) - one wall.

A 0.5mil spherical stylus (13um radius where the stylus contacts the groove) has a contact area of 23.4um(sq.) - one wall.

A 0.3x0.7mil elliptical stylus (18umx6um radii where the stylus contacts the groove) has a contact area of 20.6um(sq.) - one wall.

A line-contact stylus (45umx6um radii where the stylus contacts the groove) has a contact area of 46.7um(sq.) - one wall.

A microridge stylus (75umx2.5um radii where the stylus contacts the groove) has a contact area of 62.1um(sq.) - one wall.

hth, jonathan carr"

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so line contact is +57% more contact surface than spherical

microridge is +100% more contact surface than spherical

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IF correct about elliptical (really?)

line contact is +130% more contact surface than elliptical

microridge is +210% more contact surface than elliptical

then there's SAS; Shibata; van den Hul; gyger 2; ........

Dear Viridian :  Gyger makes the Replicant 100 for Ortofon and in its site you can read the Replicant 100 specs and use a radius of 100, that's why the name Replicant 100.

Giger makes other model ( s) with bigguer radius. Here you can read the overall information about coming from an expert retipper:

 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/replicant-100-stylus/post?postid=2326742#2326742

 

https://www.ortofon.com/mc-diamond-p-1000-n-1579

 

R.

viridian

chart below indicates what is normally understood: elliptical has MORE contact area than Spherical

 

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I have to believe Johnathan Carr made a typo in the comments you cited

• Posted by jcarr (M) on January 7, 2005 at 17:41:40

  In Reply to: Re: The virtues of a spherical stylus posted by Tetrack on January 7, 2005 at 08:13:53:

   

"I have some stylus articles that Namiki published when they introduced the Microridge (also known as microline among other names) profile, so let's look at the manufacturer's figures.

A 0.7mil spherical stylus (18um radius where the stylus contacts the groove) has a contact area of 30.5um(sq.) - one wall.

A 0.5mil spherical stylus (13um radius where the stylus contacts the groove) has a contact area of 23.4um(sq.) - one wall.

A 0.3x0.7mil elliptical stylus (18umx6um radii where the stylus contacts the groove) has a contact area of 20.6um(sq.) - one wall."

**** chart above shows .3 x .7 = 40um****

which fits common understanding

"A line-contact stylus (45umx6um radii where the stylus contacts the groove) has a contact area of 46.7um(sq.) - one wall.

A microridge stylus (75umx2.5um radii where the stylus contacts the groove) has a contact area of 62.1um(sq.) - one wall."

hth, jonathan carr

@elliottbnewcombjr 

buy an advanced stylus shape: Line Contact/Microridge/Shibata/SAS: they cost more, but last much longer

All these advanced profiles have far smaller contact areas with the disc.  So the friction is concentrated over a smaller area and the pressure per unit area will be greater, thus wearing the stylus (and disc) faster.  Furthermore, advanced profiles deliver their performance improvements because the contact area is small and the disc is thus 'read' more faithfully.  The fine line contact soon enlarges with wear and some of the performance edge is lost.

It is important to remember that something can rarely be had for nothing.

 

 

clearthinker

you have it absolutely backwards, is this a joke?

look at row B in the chart

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The cutter makes the groove, making 100% groove contact

advanced stylus shapes get closer and closer to the cutter shape, each type on the chart making progressively more contact with the groove walls.

Line contact styli have a much larger contact area than conical or elliptical types because they fit more snugly in the groove and contact more of the groove from top to bottom.  Not only did J. Carr provide the numbers, the chart clearly shows this as well (line E of the chart, and the illustration on line D).

What is critical for line contact type cartridges to work properly is good alignment.  Azimuth is particularly important.  I have also found that vta/sra is also important (small changes can be heard).

AsFor wear, with proper care and clean records, I easily get at least 1500 hours on the cartridges I’ve owned.  Way back when I used elliptical cartridges, I got MUCH less hours of use (but it was cheap and easy to change styli).  Of course this might be attributable to other causes (like the quality of diamond used).

clearthinker

perhaps you are misled by ROW C showing front to back thickness.

 

Viewing the Groove from the front: no matter the amount of groove sidewall ’profile contact’, only a speck of the sides of any shape touches the groove wall.

Viewing down: Quad, modulations up to 50,000 hz are very ’short’ (thin) front to back, thus the new stylus shapes had to be thin front to back to fit/follow those thin modulations.

Manufacturing techniques to match both the side profile and maintain ’thin’ front to back had to be developed, even today not many can do it!

Stylus 'wear', is when the sides of the stylus get flat (thick), unable to follow modulations as well, and causing progressively more damage to the grooves

The following is a slight edit to a copy/paste from a post made by myself in late 2021.

Even though I can not recollect the nuances produced during the comparison demonstrations, the notes taken on the day, along with the follow up report to the attendees, leaves me feeling assured that the notion of the Brand being assessed, and the 'under the hood', internal parts selected to be used as an assembly has the most impact on how the Cart' is going to present.

_____________________________________________________________

"Not too far back, I took part in a demi' of comparing Four Cartridges within one system, where each Cart' has been mounted on the same TT>Tonearm and Head shell Model.

Three Cart's were the same models, of which two of the Cart's had undergone rebuilds using different Spec Materials from other Cart's offered from the Brand, and one Cart' had a FGS Styli added and was recently overhauled. The Styli on these Three Cart's are a FG 80, FGS and Ogura Vital+S. 

The Fourth Cart' was from the same Brand and Production era as the others in the line up, but was a production variant of the three Cart's. This Cart was also rebuilt, using parts belonging to another Model from the same Brand, which was a model that was at one time the Top of the Range model. This Cart' had a FGS Styli.

The Cart's had from recollection an approx' usage of between 50 - 200 Hours on the differing models. 

After hearing the four Cart's, the Three attendees during discussion could not distinguish how much a Styli was seen to contribute to the noticeable differences in Sound Quality a Cart was able to create.

The basic assessment was that the Brands Standard Cart', was the inferior performer on the day, and the Variant Model with the New Parts within, was noticeably the one with the most attractors over all the Cart's in the Line Up. 

The owner of the Variant Cart' today owns the same Model that the Cart's rebuild donor parts belonged to,  and is using the Replicant 100 styli, in regular communications and listening experiences of this Cart' the owner is not feeling the need to consider the FGS as an alternative styli. "     

I don't mean to be......... (can't stop over explainin').....The two cartridges on your list I have experience are the Shure and the Stanton...  The Stanton has a good reputation, especially as a DJ cartridge. Sturdy and forgiving of set up errors (spherical styli are not always as finicky) it probably would be a good choice for a starting point, especially with rock. If you don't have alignment tools (protractor, over hang gauge stylus tracking scale...etc.), there are downloads out there, and probably good vids.  There are numerous new cartridges available in the $100 and under. A good hi-fi/ audio store should be able to help, even with installation if you need or want.   Enjoy!