I just read this review and thought of Ralph's comments: http://www.10audio.com/aurorasound_VIDA_Prima.htmJust being curious, I unloaded the Madake by switching the loading to 47k Ohms. WOW! The upper frequencies opened up and became noticeably clearer and with finer resolution. Update to my advice above, start your tests for the optimum loading setting with the MM (47k) settings.
The VIDA Prima and Pass XP-25 share an important attribute: they both sound best when the Miyajima cartridge is loaded at 47k Ohms. This suggests circuits that are designed to manage a MC cartridges’ tendency to sound better loaded, a weakness we refer to as “ringing”. Some of this artifact could be an issue with the phono preamplifier. The VIDA Prima does not seem to have any tendency to exacerbate ringing. |
I think it’s analogous to “back EMF” that affects the interface between amplifier and electromagnetic speakers. The movement of the coil on the cantilever that is excited by the groove is not perfectly damped. Any spurious motion thus created would generate a voltage. The load resistor affects the degree to which the spurious motion of cantilever is damped out. Why is it hard to imagine that the damping force makes the cantilever also do more work?
But I’m just guessing pending an opinion fro Ralph or Dave. |
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Mijostyn,
The Hagerman site gives loading examples for what appear to be a typical MM cartridge where the resonances being damped are just outside the audio band. This discussion has been about MC cartridges where the resonance in question is typically above 1 megahertz which is a very different situation. The typical MC cartridge has around 1/1000th the inductance of an MM so enter 0.005 into the mH field of the calculator to see what we are discussing.
I for one would love to see documentation of the ability of a cartridge to generate a 1MHz signal to excite this resonance.
dave |
Dear @mijostyn : Almost always 100 ohms works really good even with phono stages with a low headroom ( but today designs comes with high headroom, no problem at all. ) PM is rigth and exist two " problems " as PM said at 100 ohms is not really dull but the sound sounds what is in the recording adding the less. That " open " sound reported for gentlemans loading at 47K like that kind of sprk and openess that are only added distortions for that cartridge loading value. I always supported that kind of statement for many many years ( posted several times in this forum and with out know anything of PM comments. ). intactaudio is rigth about : ""
to compensate for deficiencies elsewhere in the system."""
The other issue is a bad phono stage design or a " terrible " TT/cartridge/tonearm set up or selection in between with wrong matchs. @intactaudio of course syntax's sytem is in trouble and that trouble comes from the phono stage design. Btw, this is what we can read in the loading link you posted again: """
As mentioned earlier, the peaking is best damped by lowering the load resistance. This is why MC cartridge manufacturers often request loading of about 100 ohms. The next plot shows the 5mH 10 ohm cartridge loaded with 200pF and a variable resistance. Note the 4.7k loading provides very effective damping while maintaining a bandwidth of over 100kHz. Too much damping with the 470 ohm load pulls the response down too quickly. Most MC cartridges have less inductance than this example (chosen to highlight the issue), and so the typical loading value of 100 ohms is usually quite reasonable. """
and something important is that the inverse RIAA eq. was not take in count for the calculations and the site disclosed it.
As syntax said loadin and MC always be an often asking subject because loading function as a " tone control " but the culprit or comes for a bad PH stage design or from each one of us ears and our knowledge levels about how the live MUSIC sounds and of course our preferences on what we like to hear.
Btw, I don't know you or intactaudio but I'm still waiting for the @atmasphere precise answer/numbers on that high frequency lower cartridge tracking because the loading issue along that stiffen cantilever for it. I'm sure he will comes for.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R.
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Another issue. Brighter and louder are frequently mistaken as better sound. All this has been exhaustively demonstrated. If I boost volume on an identical source 1 db. People will mistakenly think it has better sound. Same for high frequencies. If I boost them a few db people will think it sounds better. People who are use to listening to a system that has the high end jacked will think a more naturally balanced system sounds dull and lifeless. Very few of us know exactly what our systems are doing. They have not run an impulse test and graphed it out. Even fewer of us have the ability to modify the frequency response of our systems in a controlled fashion to know what any given frequency response change maneuver will result in. This results in a classic case of the blind leading the blind. It's fine to have preferences but saying they are more right than someone else's preferences is inappropriate and quite possibly dead wrong. |
Syntax and intactaudio. There are a few other factors involve that help to explain these interactions. Your views are forgetting to take these factors into account. All this is explained nicely here
http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html. Depending on the inductive and capacitive loads there may be an advantage in higher load/damping which means lower resistance. This is shown very nicely at this site. There are certainly instances where running a low resistance (high damping) will roll off the frequency response prematurely but too high a resistance (low damping) can create huge high frequency resonance peaks that will overload a phono amp. Just running any MC cartridge at 47K is asking for it. |
Syntax, you mention cartridges sound purest into 47K and dull into larger loads and if your phono stage isn't up to it you are in trouble. Mocrief suggests (and then supports with data) that the "dull" sound reported from loading a cartridge is simply the removal of high frequency distortions mistakenly perceived as detail. He goes on to suggest that many accept added information not in the original to compensate for deficiencies elsewhere in the system. These are two very different takes on the same topic and currently Moncrief's viewpoint is somewhat more plausible to me. Marketing can replace knowledge [and does of course and when it is repeated
countless times, it becomes ---> A Fact :-)] I 100% agree with the above. Facts are objective, repeatable, and provable. Attaching facts to a purely subjective experience can only sullen their beauty. dave |
Cartridge loading discussions were endless, are endless and will be endless...
To make it short, to dampen a cartridge means, you reduce their headroom,
47kΩ is 'open', you can hear the cart purest, the way it was made, when
your System is not up to the task to handle that (and most can't), you can
dampen it down (some say it has to be done based on high frequency
distortions but that is wrong). With one of the better Phono Stages you can hear
it easily when you step down from 47kΩ it always becomes more slow
and dull (but honestly a lot of Systems need that, the wonder word is:
Compensation, with Cables you can do the same)
To design a Phonostage which is silent, not sensitive to hum or other
influences, probably with higher gain (62dB and more) AND finally has to sound
like music and not dead and lifeless (most do) ---> this is VERY difficult to do ,
the Designer really needs knowledge about that chapter. In the last 15 years I
only heard 3 Phonostages which were able to solve that
- Klyne Phono 7
- Atma-Sphere
- J. Curl Vendetta
All the other countless designers will find endless reasons why their units run
best with 100Ω or 125Ω or 165,37Ω or 358.5Ω -:) but at
the end of the day, they can't do it better. It is the way it is.
Marketing can replace knowledge [and does of course and when it is repeated
countless times, it becomes ---> A Fact :-)]
Years ago a lot of cartridge manufacturers wrote in their datas: recommended
loading 47kOhm (Benz for example)....with the result, that the customers
tortured their dealers that their Phonostages were not able to run with
47kΩ (or they sounded simply awful with this setting, Levinson, XONO and
so on), and they didn't buy the cartridge.
No deal is the worst deal for a 'Dealer'
Now we have in the manuals: Recommended loading 100Ω -47kΩ
The problem is solved now
That's High End :-) |
Dear @atmasphere and friends: ""
and as I mentioned earlier, when you load the cartridge it stiffens the cantilever. ..""
""
It will be stiffer, less compliant. """
both statement from you failed for something very simple: no explanation about, no explanation why that: less/limited ability to trace high frequencies by the cartridge.
This is not the first time you posted the same and never suppotr those statements when other gentlemans somewhere supports what they said as PM confirmed by @intactaudio and certainly are my experiences too:
"""
He then goes on to show swept frequency responses of MC cartridges under varying loads showing minimal change in the frequency response.
He then goes on to point out that loading down a cartridge has a sincere effect on the side bands created from 400hz + 4Khz intermod test track. He shows plots of different load situations and it can clearly be seen that the more the MC cartridge is loaded the more the side bands that are created are reduced. Being the Skeptic that I am I repeated his tests and confirmed his results. """
Same gentleman intactaudio posted to you:
"""
What I am interested in is the underlying explanation why a cartridge doing more work will necessarily have this "limited ability to trace higher frequencies"
and till now you decided not give an answer.
But other gentleman posted to you:
"""
It sound like lowering the load might lower the resonance frequency? """
and again you did not give an answer.
In other thread where you and me participated a gentleman with a way very high technical knowledge levels that me and maybe than you posted as an answer for your touted statements:
"""
why any of the purported effects of heavy resistive loading you state could be definitively true- certainly not on tracking which is demonstrably false based on IM tests on tracking performance that I have incidentally performed as a function of load."""
that engineer proved with technical math simulations/studies that what you " touted " is not exactly true and in that thread you did not gave an answer to his post.
It's impossible that the loading cartridge can really change the self cartridge tracking habilities.
For that can happen practically you have to " stop " in some level ( high level. ) the movements of the ride stylus tip groove modulations where those groove modulations movements are generated for tremendous/very high forces down there between the stylus tip and the grooves.
Maybe in a cartridge with 15cu on compliance this must goes to at least half that compliance for that could happen and maybe not even with that lower compliance..
I think that at least the other gentlemans deserve that you give them the answers and obviously to me and all the gentlemans that posted in this thread.
I hope that this time you don't stay " dead silence " about like in other threads.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Great tutorial atmasphere! Everyone should check this out. There are several calculators for various factors including step up transformers.
You just plug in your values and hit the calculate button. My own rule of thumb has always been to follow the manufacturer's recommendation.
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What I am interested in is the underlying explanation why a cartridge
doing more work will necessarily have this "limited ability to trace
higher frequencies" It will be stiffer, less compliant. |
I bought the cartridge from Audiofeil ( sold via Audiogon) and was assured it was a good match for the VPI Scout that I bought it for. It was still pretty much brand new when I had it mounted on the Technics. In 2020, I plan to get the Dynavector DV 2X L cartridge as I owned the older model before and loved the sound. Do you think Audiofiel gave me a bum steer?
Since they gave you recommendations for VPI i am not sure what it correct or not, because i never owned a VPI with hteir tonearm. But i still own Technics tonearms and Technics turntables and for this arm Denon DL-103 is not optimal at all (like any low compliance cartridges). For example Dynavector KARAT23rs or KARAT17D2 are perfect for Technics tonearm because the compliance is much higher! In my experience dealers not always understand everything regarding tonearm/cartridge resonance and even about cartridge compliance. I remember how difficult for me was to get any valid information from ZYX dealers, they could not answer my questions regarding tonearm/cartridge matching, so i learned some stuff myself over the years. My advice for you is to try some of the very best MM cartridges on Technics turntable, you will be surprised how good an MM cartridge can be in comparison with more expensive and practically inconvenient (because of the retip) LOMC. if you need help with MM just ask me. |
I agree that the load effecting the compliance is a plausible explanation for part of what is happening with loading but when it comes to "work" and tracing high frequencies the water becomes a bit more muddled. It seems that moncrief pretty clearly illustrates and I have confirmed that loading a cartridge reduces the sidebands created from a 400hz + 4Khz test track. This suggests to me that the stylus must be tracing the groove better if a more accurate representation of the original is seen. Now you mention with respect to a cartridge doing more "work"
That of course will limit the ability of the cartridge to trace higher frequencies.
I think the above is in relation to the idea posed that a lightly loaded cartridge will trace high frequencies better than a heavily loaded one because it is doing less work. This seems at odds with the intermod findings WRT loading and I wouldn't be surprised if there is a point where a cartridge will become so loaded down that it does indeed mistrack high frequencies. What I am interested in is the underlying explanation why a cartridge doing more work will necessarily have this "limited ability to trace higher frequencies" dave |
Ralph, how does cartridge impedance affect all of this? I assume on a
good phono amp not at all. If a higher load increases the motor's
stiffness why wouldn't a cartridge track better at lower loads? When one **increases** the load, the actual load resistance is lower. If there is less load, the resistance is higher. That should answer your second question as well. Is there a measurement on Stereophile or whatever that will show if a
phono stage has resistance to RFI and/or good internal stability?
Otherwise the only way to know is to compare the sound of a LOMC at say 300 ohms vs 47k, right? I've not seen Stereophile do any such measurements- which IMO suggests that whomever is doing the testing isn't paying attention to this parameter. So yes, trying the two different loading values is about the only way you can do it. BTW, here is an excellent tutorial on this topic: http://www.hagtech.com/loading.htmlThis tutorial is seeing everything from the cartridge point of view and ignores how the phono section responds. But the resonant peak I've mentioned is obvious. Cartridge manufacturers often suggest a value for loading, but that is usually a general value and this calculator reveals why: the tone arm interconnect cable is playing a role (as well as the input capacitance of the phono section) and this value is an unknown. So the loading value often seen in the literature for a cartridge is really only a suggestion. What I am maintaining is that if the preamp is properly designed, the resonant peak will be of no consequence to the phono section. Its pretty obvious that a peak like that if driven into excitation (which it often is by the cartridge itself) has the ability to overload the input of a phono section unless that phono section takes this issue into account. Again, the presence of RFI or ultrasonic energy at the input of an active circuit can affect the way it sounds. As I mentioned earlier it can also affect the compliance of the cantilever of the cartridge. Jonathan Carr (of Lyra fame) and I had a conversation on this topic at Munich a few years ago- it was after a thread on this topic on which we were both active as on the What's Best Forum. He pointed out to me this issue of compliance- prior to that I'd not really thought it thru. Its a really good point because into 47k the cartridge might be doing X amount of work, but into 100 ohms it will be doing 470X **more** work, and that energy has to come from somewhere otherwise a new branch of physics is created :) That of course will limit the ability of the cartridge to trace higher frequencies. But cartridge compliance is not measured with such low resistance loads, so when looking at the specs to see if a particular cartridge is going to work in a particular tone arm this issue can throw off the setup! |
@atmasphere
Is there a measurement on Stereophile or whatever that will show if a phono stage has resistance to RFI and/or good internal stability?
Otherwise the only way to know is to compare the sound of a LOMC at say 300 ohms vs 47k, right? |
I forgot. How would this affect the resonance of the cartridge in a particular tonearm. It sound like lowering the load might lower the resonance frequency? |
After meticulous Tonearm set up I have always just used the manufacturer's recommendation. Switching around on an ARC phono amp I can not make out any difference in sound quality.
Ralph, how does cartridge impedance affect all of this? I assume on a good phono amp not at all. If a higher load increases the motor's stiffness why wouldn't a cartridge track better at lower loads? |
Seems like most everyone else seems to hear differences with load changes. Maybe by building a phono pre so quiet or with certain tubes, etc... kills the music from coming totally through.
Dave brings up a interesting point and another variable which may explain why most people hear differences between loading. You also notice he did not make make blanket statement about do this and your home free!!!
I only thing I know for certain is there are so many things we do not know about energy. And the only real way to know if you are reproducing something that sounds like Real music is to listen, change, listen, change, listen etc...!!!
I realize this is not building forum so you are at the mercy of manufacturer and the ad copy. And being able to experiment with infinite amount of different resistors and capacitors to load your cartridge just right, is not in the cards, for most people.
Enjoy the ride
Tom |
I run my Benz Wood SL "unloaded" at 47K on my Pass XP15. It sounds the
most open, with airier highs, but admittedly I'd be hard pressed to tell
the difference between 47K and 1000 ohms, maybe even 500 ohms. Seems
the Pass XP15 just isn't that sensitive to loading. You are correct- when I've pointed this stuff out on other threads, Pass Labs phono section owners respond as you have. I don't understand this comment... a Manley Steelhead is unstable? The
Steelhead lets you switch loading on the fly and the tonal differences
were easily audible.
If the loading is affecting the sound like that its a good bet that the phono section is sensitive to the resonant peak' RFI as I mentioned earlier. Now I should point out that MM cartridges do behave differently- if you have one of those then loading is critical IME moreso that LOMC. This is partially because MM cartridges do ring at audio frequencies if not critically damped. LOMC cartridges don't ring anywhere near audio frequencies- if you 'ring' them with a square wave the input and output waveforms look the same. There are IMO/IME four parameters that have to do with phono preamp design: 1) enough gain with low enough noise2) accurate EQ3) resistance to RFI4) good internal stability It is the last two on the list where many phono sections have problems. If you find for example that you get lots of ticks and pops even with new vinyl, this is a sign that the preamp has troubles with these last two parameters. Needing to have a low resistance load on the cartridge is another (keeping in mind that we are talking about LOMC); if the phono section is set up right 47K as a load will be found to work just fine, assuming that normal low capacitance phono cables are in use. |
Again: loading has no effect on the sound of a **low output** cartridge- it has everything to do with the stability of the phono preamp.
I don't understand this comment... a Manley Steelhead is unstable? The Steelhead lets you switch loading on the fly and the tonal differences were easily audible. |
I run my Benz Wood SL "unloaded" at 47K on my Pass XP15. It sounds the most open, with airier highs, but admittedly I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between 47K and 1000 ohms, maybe even 500 ohms. Seems the Pass XP15 just isn't that sensitive to loading. I suppose that's a good thing. My brother has a Project Phono Box and the loading dial might as well be a treble knob! |
I did repeat the experiment with a completely different setup and my results paralleled Moncrief's. I would expect different absolute results with different tonearm / cartridge combos. I did see a pattern of behavior that was consistent with both low and high compliance cartridges.
I do believe that the effect of the load is showing up as an adjustment of the compliance and would expect this to be a dynamic behavior.
dave |
The Zu Denon is very much a "salt to taste" kind of cartridge when it
comes to loading. When I used one it could indeed sound quite different
when using 100/200/300/500/1000 ohms. And Zu will tell you there is no
wrong answer here, just use what sounds best to you Again: loading has no effect on the sound of a **low output** cartridge- it has everything to do with the stability of the phono preamp. @intactaudio While I agree generally with Peter in this regard, I am suspect of the idea that loading causes the cartridge to track better in all cases. I have seen this where the cartridge was otherwise incompatible with a tone arm; a good example is a Grado in a Graham 2.0. The loading prevents the 'Grado dance' that can otherwise occur especially in lead-in grooves. However that is all about tone arm compatibility, and as I mentioned earlier, when you load the cartridge it stiffens the cantilever. So you will get different results in different tone arms! Peter wasn't being entirely scientific in this regard as his data was limited to one tone arm/cartridge combination. |
There is an interesting article in IAR #5 by Peter Moncrief titled "Audio Fallacies Exposed Low Impedance Loads for MC Cartridges" about loading and he proposes that loading down a cartridge helps it keep better contact with the grove.
Moncrief attacks the general held belief that 'loading a MC cartridge damps a HF ringing and the "dull sound" from too great of a load is simply an overdamped response' He then goes on to show swept frequency responses of MC cartridges under varying loads showing minimal change in the frequency response.
He then goes on to point out that loading down a cartridge has a sincere effect on the side bands created from 400hz + 4Khz intermod test track. He shows plots of different load situations and it can clearly be seen that the more the MC cartridge is loaded the more the side bands that are created are reduced. Being the Skeptic that I am I repeated his tests and confirmed his results.
dave |
The Zu Denon is very much a "salt to taste" kind of cartridge when it comes to loading. When I used one it could indeed sound quite different when using 100/200/300/500/1000 ohms. And Zu will tell you there is no wrong answer here, just use what sounds best to you. |
I am using the VPI phono cable. |
What @atmasphere writes is very much what is causing your change in sound character. Loading at the phono stage and not at the cartridge is what you should be looking for. Also what phono cable are you using and do you know its capacitance? A very low cap cable should be what you use along with a higher resistive setting at the phono stage (like 1000 ohms) then you allow the cantilever to move freely in the groove, rather than a low resistive setting might stiffen the cantilever and make the cart work more.
If I load my Delos at 100 ohms the sound is closed, restrictive and bland, I load at 475 ohms and the sound becomes very dynamic and very high resolution. |
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@stereo5 47K is the standard for phono cartridge loading. I am very happy at 1K ohms, I was just kind of wondering why.
I explained why in my prior post. With a higher impedance load on the cartridge, the cantilever is more able to trace high frequencies. |
@chakster ...........I bought the cartridge from Audiofeil ( sold via Audiogon) and was assured it was a good match for the VPI Scout that I bought it for. It was still pretty much brand new when I had it mounted on the Technics. In 2020, I plan to get the Dynavector DV 2X L cartridge as I owned the older model before and loved the sound. Do you think Audiofiel gave me a bum steer? |
Dynamic compliance of your DENON DL-103 cartridge is 5cu @ 100Hz , convert it to 10Hz and it will be 8.5 cu - this is extremely low compliance if you don’t know. Look at the specs of your Denon to check it if you don’t believe me. To convert 100Hz to 10Hz you need to multiply on 1.7, so this is why the compliance is 8.5 cu @10Hz. The do yourself a favor and measure tonearm/cartridge resonance with a Test Record to make sure about resonance frequency. Any cartridge with such a low compliance require tonearm with over 30g effective mass, Technics tonearm effective mass is about 11-13g as far as i know. If your aluminum body made by Zu does not require a sub weight then it’s not heavy enough to increase tonearm mass twice as much! Actually using an SPU on Technics tonearm is a perversion just like using Denon 103 on this arm. It’s like making a truck out of sport car. But the SPU models at least have an Elliptical or Replicant-100 stylus tip while your Denon 103 is a CONICAL (worst profile ever in the history, dirt cheap and full of distortion while playing). Technics tonearm is a killer with high or mid compliance MM/MI or MC, but with the low compliance cartridges you’re close to the extreme. I love Zu Audio speakers, but i don’t understand why you bought their Zu Denon for your tonearm ? Better cartridges with the most advanced stylus profiles and cantilevers are even cheaper than Zu Denon which is $750 as far as i know ? Maybe with harsh horn speakers a rolled-off Denon sound will help, but in a normal system it doesn’t (imo). You can experiment with different loading for sure to find what you like, but you can change your cartridge to something perfectly match for your arm, it must be a mid compliance cartridge (not extremely low compliance like your Denon 103 / 8.5cu at 10Hz or 5cu at 100Hz). |
@lewm ........My cartridge loading choices for Mc are: 25, 50, 100, 200, 400 & 1000 ohms.
@chakster ........the cartridge is in a milled aluminum body which is very heavy and absolutely no need for the extra weight. The set up of cartridge is perfect, why would I set it up again to load at 200 ohms? If it is set up properly, it should not matter as loading has nothing to do with correct cartridge alignment. The dealer (Adirondack Audio) put a lot of time setting up the cartridge and also used an oscilloscope in the process. When I got home, I rechecked the proper weight which was still spot on.
I am very happy at 1K ohms, I was just kind of wondering why. |
Now try 47K and work downward from that value until you’re happiest.
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Cartridge loading is for the benefit of the phono section, not the cartridge!
It prevents the inductance of the cartridge and the capacitance of the tone arm interconnect cable from creating a resonant circuit, by detuning it. The resonant circuit can produce noise (often RFI) that is considerably more powerful than the cartridge signal itself!
The problem is that the loading resistor also causes the cartridge to do more work- it has to drive that load. The energy to do that comes from the stylus in the groove driving the magnetic generator in the cartridge, so the cantilever will get stiffer and less able to trace high frequencies.
So less loading will open up the highs in some cases. The problem is if the circuit resonance appears, it acts as RFI injected into the input of the phono section. If the phono section is sensitive to RFI it won't sound right- hence the need for loading. OTOH if the phono circuit designer understood this problem, then no loading at all is needed since the phono section will have no problem with the RFI. A side benefit of a proper phono preamp design is you will also experience less ticks and pops, as these can be caused by stability problems in the phono preamp!
At any rate always go with the least loading (highest resistor value) you can such that the system has correct tonal balance.
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Dear @stereo5 : I agree with those two gentlemans, you need to test it at 200 ohms again and try to fine tunning the cartridge/tonearm set up at that loading.
In the other side your Technics tonearm is spot on with that cartridge due that its compliance is over 10cu, don't worry in this regards.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Most of my MC cartridges are better with loading much higher than 100 Ohm, normally 1000 Ohm, 10 000 Ohm or even 47 000 Ohm is better. But do not expect that you will stay forever with a chosen loading, it depends on the mood. This arm is not optimal for your low compliance Denon cartridge, simply learn about tonearm/cartridge resonance. Your cartridge must be used with super heavy tonearm as the compliance of Denon is extremely low! Make sure to use the heaviest possible headshell and add subweight on the back of your tonearm to increase the mass of the arm as much as possible. |
You're not loading it as much as you were. Loading damps and reduces air and detail. You know the way you can turn a bicycle upsidedown and turn the pedals as fast as you can and it really flies? Now try it with the brakes applied at various levels. Notice how it's more controlled when peddling against the braking? That's damping.
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The cartridge was dialed in from the dealer and checked when brought home. Nothing was changed. |
Tonearm setup has a lot to do with it too. VTA, VTF. Once you re-dial those in you may end up back at 200 ohms. Lots of variables involved.
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