I've been using a Technics SL-1600MK2 since about 1982. I'm currently using an Ortofon Blue cartridge. I have a NAD M12 pre, M22 v2 PA, and Tannoy 8 dcti speakers.
I plan to upgrade to a 1200G or 1200GR and wanted some cartridge recommendations from current owners. I've considered the Ortofon Black for either, but I'm not sure if that would be overkill for the 1200GR. The Blue sounds pretty good with my current setup, so how much improvement could I expect if I went with the Black.
You have almost the same turntable as I do. I have the SL-1700mk2 which is the same but only semi-automatic operation. I use an Audio-Technica VM540ML and love the clarity and depth of sound quality across the spectrum with great dynamic range.
The SL-1200G /GR are very nice turntables, but I feel they aren’t -that- much of a step up from the SL-1600mk2, which has basically the same tonearm and while it has plenty of mass, it could use more isolation, which has always been a weak spot with the old SL-1200mk2 / md3.
I have recently purchased a KAB Electro-Acoustics tonearm damper. While I’ve yet to install it, it is reputed to be one of the best enhancements to the SL-1200mk2 tonearm, which is fundamentally identical to your SL-1600mk2 tonearm.
My advice is to keep using your SL-1600mk2. It might just need a little TLC (clean/lube the spindle, rewire the tonearm with litz tonearm wire, treat it to a new mid/high compliance cartridge, new interconnects and maybe the KAB fluid damper).
sleepwalkder65 It might just need a little TLC (clean/lube the spindle, rewire the tonearm with litz tonearm wire, treat it to a new mid/high compliance cartridge, new interconnects and maybe the KAB fluid damper).
I had it serviced about two years ago, and it still moves like new. I'll talk to my TT guy about the upgrades you mentioned. Thanks.
I am looking for a second TT. My 1600 was part of my previous main system. I'm setting up a dedicated listening room so I moved it there anticipating buying the G or GR.
I have two SL1200 mkIIs (one I bought new and one I refurbished with a new arm) plus a 1200GR in heavy rotation for the past six months. It’s a superb table and is more solid in imaging and bass, and quieter, than its predecessors. Cartridges include the Black (highly recommended) and several other Nagoakas, Stantons, Pickerings, Grados and Shures. But my favorite, and I HIGHLY recommend it, is a vintage Pickering XSV3000 (or 4000) and you can still get styli for these. Take a look at Wittsolutions on eBay for a wide selection of excellent vintage cartridges. You’ll save some money and be hard pressed to improve upon those MM designs and builds from the 70s and 80s.
And +1 on the KAB damper for SL1200mkIIs; it won't fit the GR as the arm gimbal bearing supports are considerably wider. Hopefully, KAB will make a new one that does.
The 1600mk2 is a great turntable, and if you are considering moving to a SL-1200xxx you will need to get used to picking up the tonearm at the end of play. That was one of the reasons I wanted a SL-1700mk2, because I’m lazy :-)
Back in the day, I bought the 1600 because it was totally automatic. I kinda dread having to manually pickup the tone arm, but if I go the 1200 route, I'll have to get accustomed to it :-)
You do realize the SL1200G is a $4000.00 turntable, where the SL1200GR is a $1700.00 Turntable? I have the 1200G and use a ZU Audio mofified Denon DL103MC cartridge. Breathtaking is how I would describe the sound.
@stevecham But my favorite, and I HIGHLY recommend it, is a vintage Pickering XSV3000 (or 4000) and you can still get styli for these.
I have a minty spare of Pickering XSV 3000 if anyone need it, the XSV3000 is equal to Stanton 881s. I like those cartridges, but Stanton signature SC-100 WOS is much better (the only problem is the price), it’s an exceptional MM cartridge, very rare. Highly recommended for Stanton/Pickering fan club.
Another relatively cheap MM is a vintage Ortofon M20FL Super (Nude Fine Line tip). Great cartridge for those Technics tonearms. Some dealers offered this cartridge with $5000 tonearms, until the buyer will find anything better. If the budget is under $300 then M20FL Super is a contender! It looks like VMS series, everyone can learn more about it in this anniversary calendar. I have a NOS stylus, but still looking for a generator myself.
@oldschool1948 Don’t know the budget, but if you have more than $600 for a cartridge then you can find some stellar vintage MM for this tonearm. Victor X1, X1-II, X-1IIe are superb, Audio-Technica AT-ML170 is an exceptional MM, Joseph Grado XTZ is very good, Pioneer PC-100 mkII is great, Technics EPC-205c mk4 is amazing (only if the suspension is fine).
For a brand new carts look for Garrott Brothers p77i and higher models, if they are as good as the old Garrott p77 then it’s amazing.
I know the price difference. I’m retiring and setting up my first and last listening room. I just bought an Innous Zenith MK2 CD ripper/media streamer, which replaced my Mc MCD7008 CDP and Squeezebox Duet. The Zenith is really nice. My analog sources are the 1600 and a Teac X10-R reel-to-reel.
I have about 1200-1300 vinyl albums that I’ve rediscovered after a long hieatius listening to CDs, my reels, and streaming. I forgot how much I love the sound of vinyl. So I’m looking to improve on what I have. The GR is a possibility, but at the same time, I’m trying to balance my TT purchase with my existing equipment.
In the end, I can’t take it with me :-). So spending an additional 3 or -4K to get the TT sound I want is not of the question.
I like manual tables because, even though I don't really want to, it does get me up off my fat rump every twenty minutes or so to change the side/record.
And +1 on the KAB damper for SL1200mkIIs; it won’t fit the GR as the arm gimbal bearing supports are considerably wider. Hopefully, KAB will make a new one that does
Sorry this is incorrect. KAB has a damper for the G/GR. I have it on my GR.
Alsowhile the G is better than the GR, from all reports it is barely better. My GR competes with my Prime (with speed controller). The prime is a better table all around but the GR is 90% of it.
i use a Denon 103r with ebony body on the GR and a Soundsmith Carmen Mkii on the Prime.
I sold my VPI Prime after getting the SL1200G. I find the Technics superior. For the first time, my analog rig bests my digital equipment. Another plus is no acoustic feedback which I did get with the Prime and the Scout before it.
I am currently using a Lyra Delos with an Arche headshell on a 1200G. Sounds great. Other cartridges that I heard that are really good on this table are the Ortofon Cadenza Bronze and Winfield. Very organic sounding on this table are the ortofons. I am going to get one down the road.
The SL-1200G /GR are very nice turntables, but I feel they aren’t -that- much of a step up from the SL-1600mk2
The plinth and platter of the SL1200G are much better damped (the SL1600 has no damping in the platter at all) and the plinth of the SL1200G is also more rigid. This makes for a more neutral 'table, and its also more speed stable. The better your system, the more you hear these differences, especially with the volume up.
Atmasphere said: The plinth and platter of the SL1200G are much better damped (the SL1600 has no damping in the platter at all) and the plinth of the SL1200G is also more rigid. This makes for a more neutral 'table, and its also more speed stable. The better your system, the more you hear these differences, especially with the volume up.
The present turntable of the OP is a SL-1600mk2, which is greatly improved in the sense of isolation and damping over its precursor, the SL-1600. While the plinth has no damping material, it is isolated from the spring-suspended base of TNRC on which the platter spindle and tonearm are mounted. The plinth in this design has no bearing on the turntable’s isolation. The platter on the SL-1600mk2 is heavily damped underneath by rubber material that is bonded to it. Further, the SL-1600mk2 platter mat is 6mm thick, made from a very dense rubber compound. With a virtually identical tonearm to the SL-1200G, there are very few improvements to be found in the SL-1200G over the SL-1600mk2.
On the other hand, you would find the older SL-1200mk2 to be quite inferior to the SL-1600mk2 because it has no isolation of the plinth from the base, which is nestled in a rubber enclosure on rubber feet.
sleepwalker65: With a virtually identical tonearm to the SL-1200G, there are very few improvements to be found in the SL-1200G over the SL-1600mk2.
I've been using the SL-1600mk2 with my rec room systems for a very long time. Back in the day I had two hooked up my Rodec mixer, but gave one away. Looking back, I wish I'd kept it :-).
I'm now using the 1600 in my new listening room. The SL-1200G will replace it, and it will go back to the rec room. I even considered buying another 1600 from eBay for my listening room, simply because I love having a fully automatic turntable.
I settled on the G because it's new, and paired with the right cart, I do expect improved SQ. I also settled on the G because almost every reviewer and user gives it such high marks. I plan to add KAB fluid damping; and better RCA and power cables. And then sit back and enjoy the music.
On the other hand, you would find the older SL-1200mk2 to be quite
inferior to the SL-1600mk2 because it has no isolation of the plinth
from the base, which is nestled in a rubber enclosure on rubber feet.
Agreed! The older SL1200s have appearance only in common with the new SL1200G and GR, which are entirely different construction from the ground up. It is easy to confuse that the two must be the same animal with maybe some slight tweaks, but that isn't the case.
@oldschool1948 I think you have made a good decision. I am very happy with my 1200G. I did hear improvements with a different mat and IC.I use a Hana EL along with a Denon 103.
I have those KAB fluid dampers on both of my upgraded SL1210mkII, the biggest improvement was not the KAB dampes, but a Technics 205c mk4 cartridge i have tried for a first time about 5 years ago. You may need a fluid damper for high compliance cartridges, but definitely not for low compliance cartridges. Also the damper collect dust all the time, i have removed mine today for cleaning. Better cartridge makes a HUGE different on this turntable, the dampers are not.
As for the classic SL1210mkII that you’re calling inferior compared to automatic SL1600, simply add Isonoe Footers and SAEC SS-300 mat and the problem is solved.
For a half price of the new SL1200G everyone can buy a Luxman PD-444 turntable designed for two tonearms. It’s a king of turntables made by Micro Seiki. Technics is a little toy compared to Luxman PD-444, almost any tonearm can be mounted on Luxman ("9, "10.5, "12 inch).
Our @brentknoll just bought one for $2k including shipping from Japan to USA and this is amazing price! Not to mention spare armboards supplied by that japanese seller. The price is very low compared to Technics SL1200G or GR. Luxman is state of the art turntable and does not require any mods.
@chakster , there are huge differences between SL-1600 and SL-1600mk2. SERVO vs Quartz locked PLL, damping, adjustability of tonearm height, etc. Then you need to know that the SL-1200mk2 is a simplified version of the SL-1800mk2 variant, which was developed alongside the 1600mk2 / 1700mk2 / 1800mk2, but with a rubber base instead of spring suspension to stand up better to rough handling and being shipped. The downside to the rubber base is poor isolation from shock and vibrations.
@sleepwalker65 basically i don't care about automatic turntables and my reference Technics was an SP-10mkII, this is my Technics setup.
As for the spring suspension just look for the Isonoe Footers designed for Technics SL1200 series. They are great! I bought my SL1210mkII in 1996 and fully upgraded it long time ago.
To any Technics fan i would recomment at least SP-10mkII in a cuatom plinth with proper tonearm. SL1200 or 1600 series or even new SL1200GAE is always a compromise. I don't like then much.
I heard my first sp 10 mark II yesterday. Had a Jelco tonearm and a MM cartridge on it. The cartridge was an Old Stanton. Not sure which one. It sounded great but I would not that the 1200G is a compromise. In fact I would rather have my 1200G any day. Sorry... Its closer to a lateral move than anything but the 1200G is newer and I honestly think its sounds better to me. Of course my table has a lyra delos on it but not sure that it matters that much. That Stanton sounded great. So great in fact that I am getting an older Pickering MM cartridge that is supposed to be close to the Stanton he had.
I heard my first sp 10 mark II yesterday. Had a Jelco tonearm and a MM cartridge on it. The cartridge was an Old Stanton. Not sure which one. It sounded great but I would not that the 1200G is a compromise. In fact I would rather have my 1200G any day. Sorry... Its closer to a lateral move than anything but the 1200G is newer and I honestly think its sounds better to me. Of course my table has a lyra delos on it but not sure that it matters that much. That Stanton sounded great. So great in fact that I am getting an older Pickering MM cartridge that is supposed to be close to the Stanton he had.
I don’t think a turntable has sound, it’s cartridge and tonearm which makes bigger difference than one Technics motor or another (they are both good). Compromise is a tonearm, you can not use most of the "12 arms on Technics SL1200G for example. Stanton cartridges are really good if it’s at least 881, 980, 981 or higher models like CS-100 WOS, but they are not for Jelco tonearms, Stanton are high compliance cartridges for light mass tonearms like Luxman TA-1, Infinity Black Widow or related light mass tonearms. I’ve heard them on Technics tonearm and it was also nice, but Jelco has higher effective moving mass than Technics tonearm.
If you think an SL1200G is not a compromise then why do you think Technics made SP-10R ?
I just told to another member that i have Pickering XSV-3000 which is equal to the Stanton 881. It’s inexpensive cartridge with Stereohedron stylus.
the newer technics reference table is in another league. its very, very good. Its much different than a SP 10 MKII. there are similarities in the 1200g, the newer reference table and the sp-10 mkII. I would say that the Sp10 mkII has a very smooth sound, the 1200g has a very accurate sound and a little more detailed to my ears to the sp 10 MKII. Maybe its the Lyra I am hearing but that is what I heard, SP-10 is very smooth, a great table, the 1200g is very accurate and the new table is in another league all together IMHO. If I could have an sp10 MKII I would. I would have both the 1200G and the SP10 MK II. I could easily live with either. I have not heard a sp-10 Mk III. so maybe its closer to the newer reference... How easy is it to keep a SP-10 MkII going if it breaks, they are older? The 1200G sounds more like the SL-1000R than the sp-10 MKII to my ears. yours may differ.
"I don’t think a turntable has sound" I would think that accurately describes what I heard when I listened to the SL-1000R. I think that pretty much says it perfectly. Thats a good one Chakster. You got that right on the money.
You can still change out the arm on a 1200G if the stock arm does not do it for you. I think the stock arm is very good and a fantastic value and very versatile. You can use a MC or MM cart of fairly high compliance with it and get great results. you cannot put a 12 inch arm or 3 arms on it and I guess that is a compromise of sorts. However, some do not need 3 arms and the 1200G gives a great performance of a very high end turntable for a fraction of the cost of a sp-10R. its still not inexpensive, but its not 10K or 20K though its sounds pretty close to a table in that range IMO, maybe even surpassing some as well. the pickering that I ordered is the one you mentioned. it will be interesting.
I read the review by Pani and unfortunate for him, he did not give the 1200G table a proper run in. I heard the same things he eluded to when I first started listening to it. I could tell that the table just needed more run in. Any sp-10 in existence will be sufficiently run in. I understand what he heard in the sp-10 mk II after i heard it. it is a great table in its own right. I could easily live with either.
You can still change out the arm on a 1200G if the stock arm does not do it for you. I think the stock arm is very good and a fantastic value and very versatile.
This not a sort of turntable to change tonearms, it's too complicated. But Technics tonearm is great to swap the cartridges quickly. I've been using Technics SL1210mkII since 1995, just bored of its design and limitations. But for begginers GR it's amazing turntable. I love Techniques for its build quality, it's bulletproof turntable, this is the reason why i don't like cheap belt-drive turntables flooded the market.
you cannot put a 12 inch arm or 3 arms on it and I guess that is a compromise of sorts. However, some do not need 3 arms and the 1200G gives a great performance of a very high end turntable for a fraction of the cost of a sp-10R. its still not inexpensive
3 arms at the same time is a perversion (imo). Using a high compliance (40-50cu @ 10Hz) unit on Technics tonearm is not good, much lighter tonearm required for them. Using an SPU or related low compliance (10-15cu @ 10Hz) on Technics tonearm is also perversion. The rest of the carts works fine on it.
But even SP-10R is not as good in terms of usability as Luxman PD-444 for two tonearms, i don't like the desing of the SP-10R plinth, power supply and even tonearm. Luxman's metal armboards on slide with bracket is an amazing solution for people who's searching for the right arm/cart combo. I can swap the tonearm in 10 min. Designer of Luxman PD-444 is genius! This superheavy turntable cost $2000-4000 depends on condition and sound quality is amazing. So in my world Technics SL1200G can't compete with Luxman PD-444 (thanks Micro Seiki for it).
The only problem is that my Technics EPA-100mk2 can not be mounted on Luxman :(
No problem with the rest of the arms from my small collection. I'm sure the PD-444 is the best value product on the market for people who would like to use two tonearms at the same time.
@oldschool1948 I use a Hana SL MC on my 1200G with excellent results. I have an extra headshell and occasionally switch to my Shure v-mr with a Jico SAS stylus. It's all good.
I just received the G with and Ortofon Quintet Black MC cartridge. The SQ over the 1600 and the Ortofon Blue MM is like WOW! The Black has so much more detail, music depth, and pure richness. I'm quite satisfied with my purchases.
I'm going to let this settle-in and enjoy it for a while, before I jump into my next major room upgrades. As a next step, I'm trying to decided between a tube preamp or room treatment. The preamp seems like the next logical step, so that I can "tune" the room to the equipment. That is, aside from upgraded phono and power cables for the G, which I will do next.
Why cant you mount the Technics arm on the Luxman?
If you asking me, the EPA-100 mk2 has its huge VTA on the fly mechanism, exactly like on your SL1200G turntable. When the VTA is belowe zero the arm is still too high for the platter. Luxman (PD-444) metal armbase with the biggest possible hole for the armshaft is not big enough to lower down the EPA-100 mkII into the Luxman armbase without destroing the bracked (lock mechanism of the armbase). I can not put 3 copper mats on the platter to rise it up (to make armwand parallel to the record surface). EPA-100 mk2 and Luxman PD-444 are not compatible.
However, i’m talking about EPA-100 mkII, the previous EPA version can be mounted, but i have sold it long time ago.
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