I have two cars. The around-town daily driver is a '95 Volvo 850 turbo. The Hoo-Hah Mobile is a 2004 VW Phaeton with the W-12 engine.
The Phaeton was a marketing flop, which makes used the used car bargain of all time. I paid $53,000 for one with 18,000 miles. I intended to drive it only 5,000 miles a year, but I've now put close to 13,000 miles on it in 12 months. I'm finding all these excuses for road trips.
Other than it not having a turbocharged engine, the Phaeton is virtually the same car under the sheet metal as the Bentley Continental Flying Spur, which costs $200,000 in the version that people typically buy. Among other things they both have the same sound system, and it's damn good.
Biggest problem is speeding tickets. Two on the same day last summer.
I really liked the Phaeton, and the only reason I didn't buy one (well, there were several) was that the dealers were totally clueless and the wait for one in that piano black with the fitted rear seats was long- they were not stocking the best ones near me (go figure, I'm near NYC, you'd think they would); second, I just didn't need to be driving a limo as my daily- right now, using a 993 to bob and weave. Three, they gave no price incentives, and by the time they figured out that they might need to, I had moved on, and the car was a dead letter. Too bad, it was a nicely built car, and the reverse chic thing of a VW badge on an over the top car was appealing to me. I guess I was in the vast minority though. They must be absolute bargains now. Enjoy.
I bought my used one from what has to be the most clueless dealer on the planet. I live in Seattle and the dealer (Luxury Motors) is located in suburban Chicago. I did the deal on the Internet and used a car shipper. It was an incredible headache. One screwup after another. Oh, but the car!
I bought it for long-distance curising, but when the Volvo's busted I drive the Phaeton in town and it's great. Still, I'd be a bit leery of doing it a whole lot given the rotten streets in U.S. cities including Seattle.
Anyway, you ought to look on Auto Trader.com for Phaetons. I just saw a 2004 W-12 with 22,000 miles asking $44K. If the title and inspection check out, that's an unbelievable bargain. There are only about 400 of these cars in North America. It flopped because of the badge-status mentality of the luxury car buyer. To me, it's an automotive I.Q. test and the high-end American consumer flunked.
I've ridden in every luxury car in the book, and none of the rest of them come close. I owned a '91 Mercedes 560SEL (last of the Wehrmacht staff cars) in perfect condition until I had an unhappy encounter with a highway barrier, and the Phaeton makes it seem like a Crown Vic by comparison.
I thought I was an audiophile until this Phaeton turned me into a hopeless car nut. Every time I drive it I say to myself that I'm really not qualified to own this nice a car. The bargin reminds me of the Stereophile reviewer who listened to the Vandersteen Quattros and realized that for $7,500 they outperformed everything else he'd ever heard.
I haven't driven an Audi A8L with either engine. Driven an Audi A6 and read the reviews of the A8L vs. the Phaeton. My understanding is that they're very different cars.
The Audi has a different platform. A lot of aluminum in it, for one thing. A Phaeton has much more steel and is therefore 700 lbs. heavier, although I'm pretty amazed at how maneuverable mine is. It's got a regular and a sport transmission mode plus of course Tiptronic, and there are four suspension modes. When I've put it in sport suspension mode and sport transmission mode, I've routinely passed motorcycles on California Hwy. 1.
The Audi has a joystick to control the audio and other functions, although it's said to be a lot easier than BMW's I-drive or Mercedes COMAND. The Phaeton is buttons only. Seems like about 3,000 of them, but after a couple thousand miles in it I got the hang of it and now I really like that aspect of it. Yet I know that any car thief would be totally baffled.
Audis have considerably more spartan interiors, and that includes the A8L. This is very much a matter of individual taste. People I respect swear by Audi, but I have to say that I prefer the Phaeton's interior to the A8L. It's plusher without being over the top in any way. I think where the Audi would probably exceed the Phaeton is in the transmission, which is a six-speed as opposed to the Phaeton's five-speed.
The reviews of the Phaeton dinged it for having an uncertain shifting pattern with the 5-speed. I think I've noticed that about two or three times in one year, so to me it's not an issue. The Audi also gets better gas mileage because of the lower weight, but I say if you have a 12-cylinder car it's sort of comical to sit there and whine about gas mileage. I can never figure out why people who have high performance cars will write a review on Edmunds.com taking off points for gas mileage. I want to scream: "Get a hybrid then!"
I can tell you this much: You sure won't find a W-12 Audi with 18,000 miles on it for $53,000. Even if I thought it was a better car than the Phaeton, which based on my reading and the time spent with the A6 I don't believe, the price tag alone would send me to the VW.
I guess there's one other thing, and that's that the Phaeton is a much more beautiful design. I generally don't care that much about it, or I didn't until I got it. It's just amazing how many people have commented on the car. I've had a couple of hot cars before this one, and I've never had anywhere close to as many compliments.
Most people think it's a rather large Passat (also another nice looking car), but there's this little Phaeton cult out there that goes nuts when they see it. They come from all points on the spectrum. In a single day last year, I was pulled over by a Calif Hwy Patrol officer who had all kinds of questions about the car before concocting a warning; had a 20-something Mexican in a low rider go crazy about it when I was getting gas in San Jose, and got fawned over by a rich guy at the car wash in Carmel.
I know how much of a braggart I must sound like, but this has really been an amazing experience. I'm the last person on earth I would have expected to fall in love with a car.
p.s.: My comments on the Phaeton's interior vs. the Audi A8L's interior are based on having gone to the auto show and sat in the A8L, plus having spent a week with an A6. And I forgot to say how much I hate the grille design on the Audis. I'm not sure what uglier, the Audi's face or the BMW's ass.
Doug: The Phaeton was a passing fancy. I don't need a big car (no kids, wife and I often drive separate cars to the city) and frankly, I don't like to drive big sedans. I have also never bonded with the Audis for some reason- great cars, but leave me uninspired. Current daily is a 96 993 C4 Cabrio, which I picked up in December, 2006. I love its old school character and its litheness. (I also like top down motoring). When I was looking at the VW, it was to replace a 2001 740iSport. I bought an M3 cabrio instead, which I recently replaced with the Porsche. Oh, and I tend to go through cars....
A new GT3 would be happenin'. The RS version is a bit of a rip-off stateside, given that all the goodies have to be done aftermarket. I had a 996 GT2, set up with all the goods, which was an animal, but honestly, it lacked the charisma of the older Porsches. The 993 and earlier platforms are, in my estimation, the ticket, even though the real RS cars are, like today, largely non-US,Euro models. To me, despite the fact that Porsche has gone water-cooled, built an SUV, and now threatens to introduce a sedan, it is a company to be admired. The cars are fun to drive, competitive as racing tools, largely bulletproof, and far more reasonable, used or new, than comparable cars from other manufacturers. Granted, the Porsches do not have the 'panache' of a Ferrari, but having owned 6 Ferraris, I could care less.
I drive a 2006 Mazda 6i. I really like the way it handles and there's lots of tweaks for it as well. Don't see anything in the near future but if money were no object my car would be a Corvette.
So Pluck, where in Seattle do you park your Phaeton? My car is probably half the size of the Phaeton and I am very careful where I leave it. I certainly never let valets (except at the Canlis) park for me.
You guys with the Audis. Do they hold up. I used to have BMWs but they don't hold up well. I used to like the Audi looks until the big mouth bass front end came along, but Consumers Reports show owners experience major problems.
I have a Lexus GS300 and a Porsche Cayman now. Both have been without any problems, the Lexus for 7 years. The Cayman is of course one year old. I am retiring soon and we plan to travel a lot. I need something comfortable on the road and capable of carrying a good deal. I have thought about station wagons and SUVs like the Cayanne. I think Audi has a wagon right?
I'm not sure about other Audi's... but my TT is 4yrs old and you wouldn't be able to tell it from brand new. It's been the best car I've owned. I've friends who own early TTs (99-01) with 80k to 140k miles with nary a problem. There are lemons in every bunch of course... but most of the issues are minor niggles.
Audi does make wagons (A4/S4 avant and A6 avant) and an SUV (Q7 and upcomming Q5).
"I used to have BMWs but they don't hold up well."
Tbg, curious as to your definitive statement re BMWs. My current ride is - to date - the most reliable car I've ever owned, and I've owned several of the more respected marques, including Porsche and another BMW. It's also the best performance car I've owned. Ironically, I test drove the Cayman before buying my M3 and wasn't particularly impressed - and yes, it was the S. Before buying our LR3 I test drove both the Cayenne S and the Turbo. Wonderful automobiles but I wouldn't take either of them in the places the LR has travelled. As a disclosure I should mention that I've owned two LRs and a Range Rover, so I was probably predisposed to LRs anyway.
As to the Audis, they are superb automobiles. I really enjoyed driving the S4 and the RS4 is in another league. The S6 is also wonderful but, alas, it is not an M5. But that hardly detracts from the S6's allure. Just my opinion.
My experience with BMWs was with a 2002 and a Bavaria and was long ago, but friends with them have had a good many problems and then there is the CR's data base.
I guess that my experience with Toyota and Lexus just cannot be overcome, but I will try test drives. Thanks for your responses.
IMHO if you are looking for a true sports car the 1970 to 1973 911s are the ticket. After having driving several 911 from the 80s and the 90s I bought a 1973 RS. The car was the same price as the used 911 cars vintage 95 and 96s. I know for many this is too crude of a car to drive, but if the driving expieriance and the feedback to the the driver is important with no masking effects that this is the car to enjoy. I could not drive this car everyday, but when the sun is out............. The later model years are too heavy, not responsive and just too conservative for my driving style. The newer 911s are great GT cars but not true sports cars. This is my opinion, your milage may vary.
Rugyb- a 1973 RS is a holy grail type of 911, surely you bought it opportunistically- today, the price is astronomical for a factory RS of that vintage.
Whart Yes I did get it at a fair price 10 years ago. I am the third owner, the seller had the car for 21 years. When I bought the car it came with the complete log book from the original owner along with every dollar ever spent on the car. The car is a thrill to drive and it is a magnet where ever we go. Seeing you car on your system I am sure you know what I mean.
1. Jaguar XJ6 TDVi 2. The new Jaguar XF 3. Aston Martin DBS (any Aston come to think of it!!) The Jag is great for wafting around in and the economy is amazing, 35+ mpg average but 40+ mpg on a decent run! But for sheer class and oozability the new Aston Martins are drop dead gorgeous, quick enough for little ole UK, and even when your not driving it but just admiring it on the drive........oh what dreams are made of!!! Still when we bought the Jag I asked if I could drive a DB9, and to my surprise the dealership in Cardiff were only too happy to let me. And WOW did I enjoy the moment. Now lets just check those lottery numbers again!!
Rugyboogie, your sentiments about the 70's RS' are, IMO, spot on. But I would disagree that the new RS' are bulky and unresponsive - or were you referring to the newer Carrera's? (Actually, I really enjoyed the Carrera 4 when I drove it in '05 - great tracking, sensitive steering, good braking; and AWD in the NW is an added bonus...) But, if performance and drivability are the requisites, I would probably look to the new Exige GT rather than a Carrera 4 or even a vintage or contemporary RS. About a third the cost of the new RS, it might not be as fast, but it's certainly as quick and handles every bit as well. I have to admit, lookswise, either your RS or a new one beats the heck out of the Lotus and, at 6'5" I can barely squeeze into one - and need help getting back out. Like you, I'm into cars that handle. That $4K I put into a suspension upgrade on my E46 M3 could just as easily have been put into audio toys, but the HK in the Beemer makes up for it...LOL.
For what it means, I drive a s class mercedes for my real estate work and a 1987 Volkswagon Westphalia the rest of the time. The westphalia is a dream-the merc is a tank.
Bigamp, btw, Diamond (Guns, Germs and Steel) is a professor at my alma mater so I'm predisposed to support him, but the crux of that particular book is hardly new. Other cultural geographers have noted that America's political/military superiority from the mid-nineteenth century to the present is due - not just primarily, but almost exclusively - to the fact that the American continent has contained the most readily available resources and that Americans have proven to be the most ardent harvesters of worldwide resources. Of course, as a result we have a slew of gas guzzlers from which to choose, not to mention the wide selection of high end audio componentry derived from those resources... As I recall, Diamond doesn't address the ecological value of solid state versus tubed electronics, though there HAS to be some connection, no?
Islandear, I think Diamond would want us to limit the number of tubeheads or transistorheads, instead of offering increasing numbers of models in each category, to ensure a longer, safer, happier future for audiophiles.
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