Stormen I hear in your thread you mention that passive (Duelund) sounds much better than active for car stereo?
Is this correct? |
Stormen thanks for the article.
I used to find this DIY stuff kind of nuts. Like how could any DIY guy get speakers to sound better than a major manufacturer? I often thought it was just to the personal tastes of the listener.
I am finding myself starting to move into Art Dudley mentality. I do not know if you have read his latest stuff but clearly moving into some vintage mentality. Stereophile gave huge praise to the Fisher 500c saying it gives up precious little to modern new designs. This is much tougher than one thinks as Fisher does not advertise in Stereophile as it is bankrupt.
By that I mean I really think I would buy whatever speakers I liked used and gut them and put in good parts. The cost of a new speaker (from a major manufacturer) with good parts is/would be crazy. Also I doubt any speaker at a reasonable price uses good parts. (Johnk this is not directed at you as I know you do and can use good parts)
I think the majors must try and get as good as sound as possible while spending as little as possible. Which begs the question can corporations improve audio? Are corporations best suited to cost cutting? When Paul Klipsch sold the company it seems like the first thing the new owners did was cut costs. Cheaper crossover parts, cheaper drivers, etc. The problem is I am sure Klipsch makes more $ today than it ever did using good parts. Just pride stopped Paul from using cheap parts?
Which Stormen brings me back into Steen's camp if crossovers parts were top notch you would not hear the improvements. When $20 resitors are "heard" as an improvement it screams weak link. |
Volleyguy,
Found this under the news section on the Duelund website:
They also use the CAST inductor, though he doesn't speak about it in isolation.
http://www.speakerbuilder.dk/content/getPage.asp?id=36
You may have to choose: English flag in the upper right corner, articles, tests, Duelund Coherent Audio
His findings seem to mimick yours. |
I did some digging on the Linn speakers and I understand they use Bennic XPP and a 10uf costs about $7. I guess I can understand the hard brittle sound? Supposed to be somewhat better than Solen and around the level of the very lowest Mundorf. What exatly does one pay for in most new speakers???? |
For those who read this in the future and are thinking of a capacitor repair/upgrade.
For me there was some very good sites like Tony Gee's cap review. But what I found hard even after reading his review is what that would mean to me? He says his test based strictly on sound quality and not price. To me that opens a can of worms. That is how I ended up with three of his favs, the budget Sonicap (bang for the buck) Mundorf's seemingly on everyone's list and Duelund's the 12.5 out of 10 according to Tony (best ever tested) vs. the 8.5 Sonicaps at 1/20th the cost.
I read so much about caps it made me sick of caps! Then I just ordered the 4 kinds. (plus having the originals) After realizing I would have to hear for myself.
What I did find out is that the sound difference from one cap to another is nothing short of huge!
To relate the difference to other purchases. One's I class as huge. (Duelund vs. vintage is huge and in the range of these changes)
I owned a Mitsubishi LT20 (lousy turntable big $) then demo'ed against a Rega P3 (budget but real and not a toy) Mine sounded broken!
Getting Lascala's as a kid compared to Sanyo speakers was huge as well.
So Duelund's would rank in the top three biggest upgrades I have ever done.
Big upgrades (Duelund was bigger than these but these were big to me)
1. First Linn cartridge
2. Lp12 (first one)
3. First Linn pre-amp and amp coming from Japanese
Pretty big upgrades (clearly noticeable)
1. Linn Klout from LK series
2. Going to an almost loaded LP12 from basic one on comparison head to head old one was slow and antique sounding. But dimishing returns here. A lot more money
Good upgrades (but now you better have better ears than my friend) (some people would say huge but some people can hardly hear these
1. Linn Kairn from Kolektor
2. Linn Karik Cd from NAD
Upgrades but things that take two or three times comparing and most likely to notice on your system.
1. Went from 18guage to Monster cable 25 years ago. (that was the start of cable makes a difference at the time that was new some thought it was bull)
2. Went from dirt cheap (throw in) IC's with NAD to moderate IC's like $70
Upgrades that to me are crazy
1. Went to bi-amping Linn Klouts (total waste of money in my mind and a lot of $) To me the biggest disapointment ever for the $.
Hope this helps in what caps mean to a regular guy.
Another thing to consider is what do you like. I am love the LP12 sound which many consider to be colored. My speakers are horns which are very dynamic. (some would say colored) So I am from that camp for sure.
Many who liked the Sonicaps heard them as neutral and see other caps as colored.
The friend who heard the speakers thinks in terms of bass, punch, tones, sounding live etc. Until yesterday he never thought all those sounds were coming from an instrument.
So now I know why some guys seek out vintage caps. Vintage oil filled have MASSIVE distortion. This may sound like an insult but it is not if you like a rock concert sound. The vintage caps distortion is not an all bad distortion. The down side is low resolution and EVERYTHING sounds like a concert even when it is not supposed to.
So if you listen to AC/DC or hard rock music you may not want to say with vintage caps. (although you are stuck with everything sounded like a stadium)
What the Duelund's do is remove a HUGE layer of noise and reverb and allow you to see into the music.
I can now hear the distortion the mid caps are doing. Sounds from that range are sloppy and distorted and I can not wait for the caps to get here.
Another huge benefit I did not see coming is the Lascala's have wayyyy more bass. (which I thought the lack of was in the speaker design but that was caused by the capacitors) Although I know there is not more it is just that the high freq noise is massively reduced and balanced is restored.
I expect more of this when the mid caps go in.
Even the friend who "liked" the stadium sound quickly grew tired of it. (and frustrated)
I will have two more reports to wrap this up. One when the mid comes in and one more likely on the CAST Duelund's I am likely to get for the tweeters. The CAST are known as the best on the planet. Tony rated the cheaper VSF's the best he has heard and he had not yet rated the CAST.
Stormen said some buddies consider the VSF's a little rough compared to CAST. That is mind boggling!
One thing for certain anything you think you have heard from a set of vintage Khorns is all wrong. In my mind as a almost 30 year owner ALL for the better with Duelund's! |
Holy Crap John 19ft!
Your wife and SET? Hmmmm Care to speculate why? I know (or should say hear) that with tubes vs. SS it is odd vs. even harmonic distortion. So even if a tube amp measures worse it sounds better. With SET how much power and how did you power all those horns?
Very interesting about your son.
In Autism as I understand it the mind becomes very attuned to some areas. Do you think his area was because you are interested in music/speakers? Seen a show once of an autistic guy who flew over Rome in a plane and drew the whole city. (from memory) |
My wife was a bit put off by my oris 150 converging horn array with 8 oris 150 horns and dual upsized imperal bass horns with 4 -18in woofers. This system end to end touching no space between was 19ft wide. My wife hated the size but after a week she used them daily. When I sold them to build other designs. She was upset;) Now she only listens when I have a horn SET system shes doesnt know this but I do...When I use SS shes just doesnt use them. My sons picky if I change for the better he will sit centered listening for quite awhile. If its not up to snuff he says turn it down daddy, no music. Hes 8 and autistic so verbal but a bit behind. He does have a musical photographic memmory, knows 100s of songs even keeps beat and time between verse. He can drum very well without any teaching. Built his 1st loudspeaker design unaided at 4. All I did was solder wire to driver. He picked drivers, cabinet [a tube], dampening, port size ,etc. And all was right. Ive had 2 friends build copys but with a veneered tube. I was working on a customer project he was without my knowledge working on my bench, used tubes from shrink wrap both same size. Still have 1 he trashed the other. I do trust his ears for I have tested system after he complains and have measured problems. |
Sherod
I am going over to his house for visit. He left here last night shaking his head talking about going home and listening to some of his albums.
Wife was up today at 8am and had the music cranked! That has happened NEVER in 15 years together.
More normal was when she came home she would say turn that down. Man that was frustrating. The only time I could have it loud was when she wasn't home or was drinking!
Here is a possible side benefit guys and I am sure many of you have similiar wives. I think women hear different. "A Day in the Life" Beatles (personal Beatles fav) In the car right when it gets going she would always turn it down. Man did that piss me off! Like turning down art. (caused more than one arguement) To me a masterpiece to her just a pile of noise at the end. I think men we hear what the guy was trying to do and women hear what it is and in a car stereo it is not good!
So to me it is worth $1500 on parts if she stops bugging me to turn it down!
Kind of just kidding but for 12 years she has bugged me to get rid of those ugly Klipsch. When I got the attractive Linn she cared more about getting rid of the Klipsch.
Just today she said why don't you get rid of the Linn speakers. No more bugging me about getting rid of the Klipsch. (that's worth something too)
So the moral is you can keep ugly speakers as long as the wife likes the sound! (and they are not in the living room) |
It looks like your friend might have to put some Duelands in his Heresy speakers. You've just turned your friend into an audiophile. I hope he has an understanding wife when he starts explaining why he has to buy all these new things for his system. (O: |
After the friend left it made me start to think about speakers.
After I had installed the Sonicaps I was shocked at how the Klipcsh sounded like every other speaker? Whatever I had come to know after all these years was changed by caps. I did not understand how that could be?
When the friend said when he first heard them tonight he said he liked the vintage caps better. It was what he was used to (as he has Heresy's) and the sound was so different to him it confused him.
Where is the bass he said? (typical comment of low to mid-fi listeners view bass as a thump not some instrument) After awhile he said there is bass but only when someone is playing a bass and when they are not it is done. In fact he said there is only the sound of the instrument or nothing.
He said the vintage caps were like listening to a guitar amp and hitting the distortion pedal. Sometimes some pleasing tones but nothing was right. (full and distorted)
At first he thought the Duelund's sounded like a studio (recording) and the vintage were like "live". Near the end of the hour his frustration grew with the vintage.
The last half hour he just sat there shaking his head. He said I have heard the song all my life yet never heard it. He said that is just "phenomenal". |
Friend stopped by and had a listen.
He owns a set of Klipsch Heresy I's and plays guitar as well. (but not big into audio)
First 10 minutes he liked the vintage caps. He liked the "fuller sound". It was a sound he was used to. He has heard these speakers for more than 25 years. At first he did not know what to make of the changes. He kept saying you can pick out every instrument. (new caps)
After 30 minutes and getting acustomed he said you can pick out the whole orchestra. He said classical music lovers would go nuts. (but was still in the vintage camp for rock)
After about an hour he just kept shaking his head and saying I can not believe caps can do that! I just can not believe it!
He said making the motion of wrapping a peice of paper in to a ball and throwing it. (that is what the vintage sound like just krinkle it all up and through like garbage.
He is more excited than I am about the mid cap. He figures he will pick up everything from his guitar favourites.
He said vintage caps instruments never sounded like the actual instrument. At first he did like the pleasing tones of the vintage caps and that sound was always there even if you had no idea what is was coming from.
He also said if that was just the tweeter caps the speakers would be unrecognisable from original once the midcaps went in. |
Just spent a hour upstairs with the Linn system. My kids who play in the basement have being singing along with the Klipsch for awhile now. My wife who was downstairs was singing as well. (Beatles CD burn in) That is a first for her!
Today when upstairs the kids said Dad can you turn that off!!?? That sounds terrible! My youngest will sit and listen to music a long time for a young kid. I asked her which stereo she liked better and she just looked at me with a stupid look and pointed her thumb down. (meaning downstairs)(they have no idea of my preferences)
I feel when upstairs I can hear someone in the background saying attention Walmart shoppers. (over the Linn system)
So Dgarretson to qualify
I would take a NAD cd player (worth about $20) the Fisher x100d (which is the same as a Fisher 500c without the tuner I think paid $300) and 30 year old Klipsch Lascala's with the Duelund's (and I do not even have the mid caps) hands down with out a doubt over the Linn system.
The Linn speakers sound hard, with crazy amounts of white noise!
My Linn dealer who says when they loan out or sell equipment (not just Linn but whoever) the customer will often say I can tell it's much better than I had. They say give it a couple of weeks and then put the old piece back in. The customer always is "shocked" when the old piece goes back in.
By this I mean getting Duelund's was a massive upgrade. The real "shocker" is when you go back to what you had. (I can go upstairs different system and just shift to the other speaker as well to hear all original) |
Dgarretson, Do you know anyone who has tried there IC's?
I am NOT getting them as I will be tapped out for awhile but just curious.
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?cablintr&1222474219 |
I can not argue much with you at all on the Karik. Like I said myself I did not think it really that good at all. It was so far below my LP12 and I did not have the funds to pursue two top end front ends. Yes the Adikt is entry level cartridge but Linn's advice is Keel/Akito (much cheaper arm than mine)/Adikt. Linn says this betters no Keel Ekos MKII Akiva. So following their line get the table up to snuff then arm then cartridge.
The Kairn is a 2003 or 04 one of the last made. So the Kairn to be much bettered would be the Klimax and that would be a big jump. The Klout is very highly regarded (amongst Linnies) and was the flagship amp until Klimax came out and still holds up quite well today.
As for the Duelund's being rated AAA++ and better than everything else I have, I can not argue there either. But it makes the crossover a area I do not have to go back to and upgrade later because it has become a weakness.
One thing that I do feel comfortable with is I do love the speakers as I have had them for almost 30 years and with this I hope to get another 20 years out of them. So 50 years out of the same speakers is not bad? I have friends who have went through tons of speakers.
Thanks Dgarretson
Make it on your list of things to do is to try even just one cap in your crossover (tweeter) and tell me if you can go back? There was a guy long ago on this thread said (to me) you at least owe it to yourself to at least hear a Duelund. Now I am singing the same tune. |
To the matter of proportion I can only say I have heard Karik & Karik/Numerik-- these are very long-in-the-tooth by today's standards. Even by Linn's definition the Adikt is an entry-level MM cartridge and Kiarn & Klout are middle-of-the-road. The system would not look out of balance were Duelunds not AAA+++ both in price & performance. You're hearing large differences between crossover caps, but the question remains whether even greater and perhaps more cost-effective improvements could be made elsewhere in the chain-- in turn reveal more tellingly the characteristics of those crossover caps. As to Salvatore's website-- always interesting-- but as occasionally explored over on AA, there may be conflicts of interest.
Anyway, enjoy the experiment. I'm jealous as hell that I don't have a fist-full of Duelunds to play with. |
Duelund in the context of other upgrades?
Dgarretson I have had one Duelund and one Supreme (both with 60hrs by now) I switched back to two Duelunds and the difference is very big indeed.
Instruments sound much, much more real and you lose an etched sound you get with the Supreme's.
Comparable from going from the NAD CD player ($600) to Linn Karik. The Karik is not worth much today so on a cost basis it is not expensive either. So if you compare another set of Duelund caps vs. a new Karik $3k+ (new) slam dunk, new caps. If you compare to a used $500-$700 Karik it is more interesting but I would still go for the caps. The Karik's are cheap and no longer in service by Linn and could break at any time and be largely worthless. I would hope the cap upgrade last for 20 years. (I used to think the Karik quite lousy compared to LP12 and it collected dust mostly)
What the caps do is make things sound more focused and wayyyy more real.
I would be real curious to here the person who put in Duleund's and thought them good but not worth the $? |
Dgarretson, I guess it comes down to how good do I think the basic Klipsch design is? I believe very good. Arthur Salvatore website's eval's new and vintage gear. He only recomends three vintage speakers. The highest of all is the Khorn. This is competing against speakers costing many times more. (some up to 100k)
http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Vintage.html#Other
quote from him
"Only three speaker designs of the distant past can hold up to todayÂ’s models in my opinion, the original Quad Electrostatic, the KLH Model Nine Electrostatic and the post 1970's Klipschorn"
He had moved the Khorns down from (the very strict credentials) to Class C (upper) from Class B. (by far the cheapest speaker in the range)
http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Speakers.html#ClA
Arthur does say at some point he would love to hear a all out set of Khorns. Well I can assure a Duelund set is MILES better than any stock one. Enough to move them back up to Class "A" I am not sure but it is huge!
Dgarretson, I can hear your snicker at my system being not "balanced".
I am very much a person who believes in balance not $. My system as I said was an LP12, Lingo, Cirkus, Ekos II and Adikt. I know Linn guys who say why do you have a cheap (realative) cartridge on such an expensive arm. My answer is that is what the dealer has recomended to keep in "balance" and that a Keel would be better money spent than expensive MC. My pre is a Linn Kairn which is made to work with the amp which is a Linn Klout and the Lp12. Those three were made for each other. My IC are all Linn my speaker wire is all Linn.
So do I seem like a guy who goes nuts in one area? My system would be text book balanced by Linn. (the sound I like) My main speakers (well they were my main) were Linn as well. Do I think them the greatest speakers no! But a well balanced system will deliver much more for much less $. (everything single thing I own was made to work in unison with the other component)
I am a very cautious person who does not go off half cocked on a crazy idea. I really believe Steen was on to something here with the crossover being of immense importance. |
Volleyguy, the question becomes-- given other constraints in the Klipsch-- how far is it worth taking these speakers without looking at new drivers, or even more fundamentally, evaluating the absolute potential of Klipsch relative to more recent stock or tweaked designs. I know it is your mission to find out how far these speakers can go. But at this point, if the thread is worth continuing, it would be nice to hear your praise of Duelund in context of the running costs of the Duelund upgrade, and in context of all other components in your system.
For example, in my own(balanced) system, from end-to-end I have substituted about 16 critical coupling caps (V-Caps TFTF & Mundorf Silver/Gold) in four line-level and amp components-- and I have yet to experiment with the speaker cross-overs. Notwithstanding your advocacy of speakers & source as making the greatest difference, all these changes in caps were "revelatory." So I'm saying look at the system as a whole. As expensive as these crossover parts are, if they come to as much as 25% of total system value, then doubtless you're missing major opportunities to make meaningful upgrades elsewhere. |
Dgarretson
I have taken to heart what you said. I am going to burn in the Mundorf products for the next couple weeks. That will help determine is the $ improvement the best bang for the buck of anything I could do.
You are right one Duelund was huge improvement, two in same same circuit does not double performance but almost double's cost. (over Mundorf Supreme) You are right that there may be another area where $'s are better spent than second Duelund. Johnk says better tweeters. I will be ready with all caps fully burned in by the time the mid caps come over from Denmark. |
Dgarretson.
I do take with a grain of salt what the manufacture says of what is important. I know Linn said source was everything as they had top rated sources. (so of course they would say that)
I do not know what the mid caps will do. But I have put resources into other areas such as Lingo power supply, Cirkus bearing, Ekos MkII tonearm (better pre-amps and amps) and not one thing I have done has been as big as the caps. So is it exotic or cost effective upgrading? One thing I can say is I believe Steen was very much an audiophile than a guy looking to make a ton of money. The fact that he gave away all of his findings saying he would not be able to bring them all to commercialization lets you know where his heart was.
Dgarretson I do believe that him saying 25% of a system should be in the crossover is controversial. (who else has ever said such a number!) It does open things up to good healthy debate as to where we should put our money in audio. No matter what audio is surely better when guys like him question what is the excepted norm.
Dgarretson if by saying a Viking Stove in track housing you mean to much $ into the crossover realitive to the rest of system?
If one spent (based on new prices) set of Khorns $8k a $3k source $3k pre $3k amp and wires IC etc you would have $20k into a system. The you put in a $200 crossover network. So that would be 1% of the budget. Is that not like putting $29 Walmart tires on a Ferrari???
When you say exotic to me that means crazy amounts of money for realitively small improvements. Audio is filled with that stuff! $10k cartridges that don't sound any different than $3k ones. (at least to me) I assure you I have no interest or money for that! I am only spending until I stop hearing huge improvemnts. If I order the CAST Duelund's and they fail to improve the system to the point where I feel I would have been better with money elsewhere I will be the first to admit it. |
Volleyguy, I use copper foil througout my system, in various widths & thicknesses for ICs and speaker cables, and also the large Alphacores as 95kHz 18db/octave HF filter in my modded CDP. Yes foils sound great. Yes composition of dielectrics and natural vs. synthetic materials can be important. However, that crossover is starting to look like a Viking stove in tract housing. Do whatever you want--we are all drawn to exotic things-- but don't be surprised that a manufacturer of exotic crossover parts holds to the philosophy that a crossover is the heart of a hi-fi system. Conserve resources for other areas. |
Stringreen it has been a long time since I played. In the air I can still sound pretty good! Stringreen I can't even read music anymore can't even help my daughter with her piano.
But I do have the caps that make a viola sound like a viola! To be honest until those caps went in I never played "air viola/violin" as I find most speakers leave a lot to be desired with stringed instruments. The vintage caps in Eleanor Rigby the cello dominates over the violin. (barely heard) On the Duelund's the Violin player is clearly the star. (hence me playing "air violin" everyone want to be the star just kidding) There is even a pair of violin's behind the main player and behind that the cello or ('s) It was that song that left me sold on Duelund's which were "light years" better than the vintage caps and left me wondering how much am I missing?
I expect the mids to not be as huge as change and woofer inductors even less just because it is tougher the higher the freq. |
Volleyguy...for heaven's sake, get out your viola and old music and play. Air viola is for sissy's. You have the ability, the knowledge, and the gear...go to it!! |
Dgarretson
I have talked to Chris about this as Alpha Core was top on my list.
He did say they sell many more D caps than inductors. I can not comment on the Alpha Core compared to vintage. In my mind one would want to spend more on tweeter caps than woofer inductors as the high freq is so much harder to get right.
Stormen where are you? Stormen did say the difference was big in inductors. The Duelund is certainly much better built as it is CAST and has zero vibration.
I do hear where you are coming from dgarretson. I remember reading somewhere in some Linn writings about vinyl and the stylus and how much tougher it was to pick up say a violin freq compared to a bass freq. The magnitude was shocking! It lead you to believe that you could error much more on the low freq than high.
So my next $ after mid caps are to try the CAST tweeter caps. If all goes well I may just buy the CAST inductor more out of repect to Duelund (for what they have done to my system) than any real gain coming. (compared to Alpha Core)
I can say the Duelund's have made my other speakers unlistenable. I am ticked in that sense that I wanted a system for the livingroom (and got one) as my Klipsch will never get there (they are in the basement) as my wife hates the looks of them. (can't blame her)
I am a LP12 fan and was planning on getting a Trampolin II maybe next and did believe the Linn theory that source is the most important.
I now have moved any Linn upgrades down below new caps for the Linn speakers. I also have doubts on Linn's cost effective Aktiv upgrades. I know they work. They do electronic crossover and remove the passive ones. I am just wondering if say Mundorf Supreme caps could do the same thing for wayyyyy less cost then two more expensive amps and crossovers?
I have moved into Steen's line of thinking. I have been there actually for awhile. (as I enjoy my Klipsch with vintage tube amp and fairly cheap CD player better than the better source better pre and better amp as the speakers seem the weak link) Linn's theory is good source cheap speakers beats poorer source better speakers. I do not know if I agree with that anymore. (well I know I don't)
Steen's with 50% of the system being the speakers. (Johnk you have to like that!) Steen saying that 50% of the speaker should be the crossover just upsets people!
So Dgarretson you may be right that AlphaCore inductors might be almost as good? But should we treat crossovers so lightly in this hobby? or is Steen right? I know you guys have not heard it and can be skeptical but I know I will never treat crossover (and caps) as some non important issue. In my mind the crossover has moved wayyyy up in importance. |
It would be relatively inexpensive to try Alphacore air-core foil inductors. Cannot be certain, but it's likely that the sonic difference between ACore and your stock inductors is greater than the difference between ACore and D inductors. ACore sound really good. I believe they also make them in silver. What does Chris at PcX say, as he carries both manufacturers?
As someone mentioned above, alternative tweets might be the best spend. |
I will do much more burn in on the Mundorf's. They are around 50hrs and will burn them into several hundred as I am curious to how they eventually settle. I also want to know for future use in possibly replacing the caps in my other speakers. They may be more cost effective as I am unsure how much $ I would want to spend on them.
Right now the Duelund's make my other speakers unlistenable. So that is the downside that one may want to consider, the speakers you thought OK will sound awful after Duelund becomes your reference. |
Duelund makes custom orders like the 13uf I am getting and the price is just the cap value price.
Kind of itching to get on with this and order the rest of the parts. But the Duelund is not cheap so I do want to make sure it gives the improvement in the midrange that they do in the tweeters.
Only question is will I do the inductors? The vintage caps were worn out no doubt so the improvement is HUGE but the inductors do not wear so it is only a quality improvement.
After the mid cap and if all goes well I will order 2 CAST tweeter caps and the other mid cap and be done for now.
I can not even comprehend the CAST caps? The VSF's exceeded my wildest expectations and can not understand the improvement on them? |
Cap order is in for 13uf VSF Duelund. I am like my kids in counting the sleeps!
Stormen I will need two more caps for tweeters and am looking at the CAST ones for the tweeters. I am very curious? I will be only using one CAST a side (but I am going to test two to see the difference) as I own the VSF's already. Is that where you would put the money in the first place would be in the tweeter as that is the toughest to get right? |
Hi Stringreen
I have contacted Klipsch to buy replacement crossovers of the originals. Klipsch does not sell caps for them. They sent me to the aftermarket guys like Bob Crites, Dean and Al K. All very nice guys. I did buy Bob's Sonicaps as a replacment.
I am only replacing the parts with same value parts and quality of original or better. The Duelund's are the first caps to make me forget the originals in every way.
I too was hooked the first time I heard Khorns. I have owned the Lascala's for almost 30 years and was almost in tears when the caps went bad. The Duelund's are a no plastic cap and better the originals (at least in the tweeters and mids are coming) in EVERY way!
Stringreen it is stringed instruments that sound out of this world! I used to play Viola (school orchestra long time ago) and since the caps are changed I am spending a lot of time playing air viola! |
Personally, I would contact Klipsch. They have a website and a customer service department. You probably could send the problem part back to them with their guidance. I would be leary of do it yourself projects. Your speakers are very good as you attest, and you don't want surprises after spending lots of money and time in do it yourself treatments. My first taste of high fidelity was in the late 50's. I am a violinist, and in high school, I hooked up with the Shapiro's..a very musical family for an evening of string quartet playing. Old man Shapiro was a physician and had a Klipschorn (mono) driven by Marantz tube equipment. I still can remember Marche Slav powering through those huge speakers.. I was hooked. |
Thanks Stormen I was afraid you would say that! I am looking to get the inductor in cast. Would that make sense? Duelund's cheaper inductor is not solid so I can see a big difference there? (possible vibration)
I have found even the VSF's needed some break-in. The first was a revalation the 2nd in the circuit took a little while to settle in.
Yesterday I actually went up to the speaker to cup the tweeter to see if working. There is no grain letting you know it is on.
I have said to friends about Steen's feelings on 50% of the speaker in the crossover and 25% of the system. The response is generally a little hostile to the notion to say the least. I do find ideas in audio are slow to change. Linn when they came out with the Keel people (Linn people) wnet crazy at the cost.
Yet Linn did the double test of cheap Adikt $500 Akito $1500 tonearm Keel $2700 (I think) was better than Akiva $3500 Ekos SE $5k
By this I just mean people were Ok with an expensive cartridge Ok with a costly tonearm but in principle against a costly piece of aluminum. I think the same thoughts go against caps and inductors.
I own a Adikt and would put the money into even better caps than a Akiva as the caps last a very long time. |
Volleyguy,
I find the CAST clearly superior. I know that some who use the CAST now consider the VSFs defective in comparison. I don't know if I would go that far, but they are quite something. They do require at least 14 days of break in to sound their best as they are a little dark in the treble at first, but oh my god, when they break in... |
I did find more interesting reads on Steen on the Duelund website. That he made all his findings public for everyone to use to improve audio shows where his heart was.
The sound is mind staggering. Stormen please come on and tell me the CAST ones are not much better! I find myself going and looking at them far too much!
Like both Tony Gee and Tempo said you can't even imagine how good they must be???? |
Just came back from listening to my "main" system. The Linn speakers who before the tweeter cap upgrade (in the Klipsch) were completely above the Klipsch. (past posts)
Now I am shocked at the Duelund differnce. Makes even very good caps sound rough. The slight white noise has gone away and I will do the Duelund/Supreme test again to make sure.
On Monday I will order the 13uf Duelund. I am very excited to see what that can do for the midrange. That is going to be a tough few weeks of wait!
I might just have to get the Duelund inductor for the woofer in the mean time.
Stormen I can see why you just don't even bother with any other company.
Stormen I view these caps as perfection but they must not be as the cast costs more and must be even better? I can't even imagine! |
Dear Volleyguy: +++++ " Sorry Raul I do not understand what you are saying??? " +++++
Sorry to hear that because that's all about. Good luck !
regards and enjoy the music.
raul. |
A friend of mine had the Silver Gold/Oil installed in his phono stage and he thought it a huge improvement. (from the Supreme's that were there)
I am not sure why the Supreme's are working so well with Duelund's for me? Could be a combintation of them being somewhat softer/quieter. They do take the slight white noise with the two Duelund's away and make the sound more enjoyable. I just do not know if the noise from the second Duelund (in the tweeter) is caused by the worn out vintage mid cap or is something that will be there if I go strictly Duelund in the midrange?
That is why I have been guessing/trying to figure out would I be better to go 13uf Duelund on the assumption that it will take out the white noise? or 10uf Mundorf and 3.3uf Supreme with it's softer sound?
The white noise from the tweeter caps is what caused the rebuild in the first place. That is how I knew the caps were done is much higher noise. The mids could easily being sending noise to the tweeters. Then the (two) Duelund's just shows it to be there. (the Supreme just take the white noise away) |
Johnk the reason I like the Supreme's over the SIO is just the tilt. The SIO (in my opinion a very good cap) but a slight (to me) unnatural focus on the high freq. I feel like all I listen to is the cymbals? The Supreme's are only a bypass cap to the Duelund's. (they so far take a slight edge off the Duelund's that may be caused by my vintage mid caps) What is the proper % of a cap to be the bypass cap? The Duelund is much more real for instruments.
While we were talking what is the price of your new horns? Going by latest e-bay sales the last set of same era Khorns (as my Lascala's) was $3500 plus shipping. Then you have to spend on the crossovers and in my mind Mundorf Supreme is absolute minimum. (to compare to vintage) Then you may want to rewire. So for a person who does not already own Klipsch (like me) and had to pay for very costly shipping and a lot of $ in crossover especially Duelund or the more costly Mundorf. You could have easy $6k+ into a set of Khorns. Are yours around that range and are they better? (I am sure you do believe in yours or else you wouldn't be selling them) |
Supremes are alright the silver golds are much much better but costly. I mostly use silver oil or silver gold |
Talked to partsconnextion. 3-4 week for custom caps from Duelund. The cost is in between 10uf and 15uf.
The problem is I keep coming back to the Duelund/Supreme for the tweeters.
The high freq noise of the vintage caps (midrange) is taken away by the Supreme/Duelund combo. The problem with this is trying to assess how much distortion is coming through the mid cap and what it's affect is? I tried putting the Sonicap in the midrange for tuning purposes and they do reveal that my midrange caps are distorting which I am not surprised. On the other side the Sonicaps really hold back any of the gains of the Duelund/Mundorf. The whole speaker sounds flat with them.
I really think having the reference of original there is very valuable to anyone doing this. (if you basically like the original) You can keep coming back to them to see what it was you like and see what is the faults you do not like.
When you replace caps the first thing you notice is what you now have. When the Sonicaps went in (whole speaker) I noticed the lack of noise and went Wow! Then after awile you realise what you don't have. The dynamic live feel why I liked the speakers in the first place was gone. (why I put them up for sale is I thought new caps might not have it)
My options are 10uf Duelund paired with 3.3uf Supreme (and wonder would 13uf duelund be even better) or 13uf Duelund built and add a Supreme by later if needed?
To me I would think 10uf would give almost all that the Duelund could give and 3.3 Supreme could not lower it in any way.
I agree with Tempo on the Mundorf Supreme
"It is rich, detailed, and full-bodied, though a bit softer sounding than the Duelund VSF" (I feel slightly rougher sounding)
The softening in horns is not a bad thing!
I do love what the Duelund does with one tweeter cap but do not like the second? The problem is is the reason the worn midrange cap causing the problem? The connection is midrange to tweeter caps so for sure whatever the midrange cap does goes to the tweeter caps. Or is Tempo right run two types of caps on any circuit you can?
I have put the lonely SIO back in with the Mundorf Supreme for the weekend to burn some hours on it and to feel comfortable with the Mundorf Supreme order I am going to make on Monday.
For Klipsch guys in my opinion all three have the dynamics that as a Klipsch owner you are looking for. The Supreme is a screaming good deal. I guess there is a reason that cap dominates the OEM (higher end) market.
One thing for certain all three are very good caps! In my opinion you can not go wrong with any of the three. The Duelund's take you into uncharted territory that your Klipsch will have never sounded like!
Very excited about next week as I am almost certain to get off the shelf Duelund/Supreme combo for the mids. |
Johnk I can not say about the Fostex tweeter as I have not heard them. I have to replace my caps with out a doubt as they are worn out. I am going to do the caps first no doubt. I can very much look at new tweeters when the time comes. How do they blend in with the Klipsch drivers in the midrange? Are they both balanced out nicely? |
Sorry Raul I do not understand what you are saying??? |
$500 for caps? Fostex t90a $300 pair, t900a under $800. With a just a solen would do better than the klipsch tweeter no mater what cap you use. With a mundorf silver gold even better.... |
Dear Volleyguy: +++++ " read (on the net) it would be easy to replace the vintage caps as they were not very good compared to modern caps. I have found this simply to NOT be true " +++++
+++++ " I said I do want the dynamics of the original caps" +++++
Guess why? are the original better caps?, both statements are really learning when you answer the whys about you will understand the whole speaker crossover subject.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Stormen do you have any more writings by Steen?
Also have you heard the difference from the VSF and the CAST ones? I can't even imagine.
Does it cost more to get special values? I see a 10uf or 15uf is $337 or $379 so should I assume a 13uf is in the middle for cost?
This would be much more cost effective than a 10uf and 3uf. The combo totals $500.
I think I am going that way. I will order tomorrow.
I can't wait to hear the reviews of the CAST ones from Tony Gee and others to hear if it is even better.
I guess I could bypass with a small Mundorf if I think it is needed.
Stormen these things are not good though it can ruin one for any other kind of cap. (and ruin your wallet)
If all goes well there I will look later at their inductors.
Thanks Volleyguy
I have contacted Partsconnextion for the quote. The worst thing that will happen is I do not like the cap in the midrange but am thrilled with them in the tweeter and feel it to be worth every penny there. |
Dear Volleyguy: +++++
This proves Steen's theory that all things being equal you want a bigger cap. +++++
Everything equal a bigger cap has higher inductance than generate higher distortion. So that does not proves anything
You can take the MIT caps ( that I think were the first commercial caps with multiple caps design. No it was not Mundorf. ) with almost similar design that the Mundorf and are a not so good cap, some people say are a crap and I say is not so good.
As good as Sonicaps are ( IMHO ) they are better running some in parallel, example if you need 16uf then use four Sonicaps of 4uf. This estrategy is valid with almost any cap.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
As mentioned numerous times, you need to let the Sonic Caps break in before making a fair judgment on them. I would agree that they are neutral, but they definitely aren't flat. |
Dear Raul
I am a rookie at this but like I said have owned the speakers for 30 years know what they sounded like and can hear. Of course it is my opinion because if all liked the same caps there would only be 1.
I do stand by my statement on dynamics as I read a lot about caps and no one talked about the dynamcis just smoothness etc.
Duelund's add false dynamics???? I would like to get more of that false dynamics then!
The Duelund's are exposing weakness in my system??? Well Partsconnexion says they are the top selling high end caps they have. Must be a lot of people with weak systems?
You keep saying the Duelund's are colored/distorted and say I am giving misinformation. The Duelund's may be "colored" (by your measurements) but distorted. Holy Crap that is the BEST my speakers ever sounded.
If I knew for sure the Duelund's would make that kind of differnce in the midrange I would be thrilled!
Raul I think you are confusing Nuetral with "flat". I can not imagine wanting to make music flat (like the Sonicaps do) |
Undertow
Again I do not understand your comments against size by saying IF Sonicap made there caps two caps in one like Mundorf they would be as dynamic. To me you are agreeing with me as I agree with you IF Sonicap did this they MIGHT be as dynamic as Mundorf. That is all I said is the "current" Sonicap is not as dynamic as Mundorf but IF Sonicap wound 4 caps in 1 like Mundorf they might be as good.
This proves Steen's theory that all things being equal you want a bigger cap!
It is a good debate as I do not want to pay for "nothing" either but in the case of Mundorf there is CLEAR reasons why they cost more and why they are better. To me a Mundorf Supreme is a slam dunk worth the money in any speaker that is worth very much at all! |
Undertow I am very confused by your comments. You cap size has nothing to do with it yet admit that Mundorf is two caps in one in series yet many claim it to be more dynamic? The Mundorf IS more cap Mundorf claims 4 caps in one. Would 4 caps in one of the same style of caps not be more dynamic? Mundorf is basically 4 caps so why would it NOT be more dynamic.
I do not mean a big empty can would make a cap more dynamic but 4 caps in one??? Why not? I actually think Mundorf is quite a cap for the money and no wonder so many high end companies are using it. You get 4 caps in 1. Whatever electricity is stored in a Sonicap is stored 4 times over in a Mundorf correct? Either way I could no doubt "hear" congestion lifting by even one Mundorf. All I am saying to Undertow is I read a ton of stuff about caps and it was not being stressed to me enough just how much better they were for the money. I find some people discount anything that costs more as silly waste of money especially caps which have no glory. |
Dear Stormen: 10.37uf?, well that's great customer service: good.
regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
