For inductors, check out Alpha Core/Goertz. |
Hi David,
I bought the Vampire wire from John at the Cable Company. Not the most expensive as I recall but lots of copper!
I have separate runs from the speaker terminals to:-
The woofer
The Mid Duelund Capacitor and then the Mid/Woofer
The Tweeter Duelund Capacitor and then the Tweeter
Why not try the Kimber you have on hand as a start or talk to John at the Cable Company. He is very knowledgeable and generally prefers a Litz-type wire but this requires a solder bath which is expensive.
Good luck. |
Also I have a in series inductor of .245mh in the tweeter circuit.
I know I hear you guys talk about Duelund resistors being a big bang for the buck improvement.
What about a in series inductor? Why would Klipsch use an inductor for the tweeter? Any help? Would it affect sound quality much?
Also Duelund has lowered their prices! and our Can $ is on the rise this is getting much better. |
My Klipsch have the normal lamp cord gauge what guage is that? 16 or 18awg?
Do not want to go smaller. |
Hmmm I am going to have to try some of that Duelund hook up wire. I know I am going to one day replace my Linn speaker wire.
I still having trouble with this silver thing? Not sure why a few feet of silver hook up wire running though my copper caps would matter?
Could someone fill me in on speaker wire is it size or silk? What matters most? Any advice on this?
I am going Steen's advice though getting plastic out where possible. |
The Duelund hookup wire is listed at Partsconnexion. The Duelund 0.5 wire is their least expensive type at $10.00 per foot. A question- many use special speaker cables. Should I be using speakers cables from each speaker driver to my external crossovers? Maybe this is the best approach? If I use speaker cables I will need 4 pair so I am looking at cables costing $200.00 each or less.
Which Vampire wire did you use, they have several types. Who did you buy from?
I have on hand Kimber PR speaker wire that may be a starting point.
Thanks to all who participate.
David Pritchard |
I agree that wire is important.
I used Vampire internal speaker wire which was quite cost effective but who knows what the Duelund wire adds to the equation? |
Wire is an important part of the equation, but $800.00 seems substantially over-kill. Is this wire on the Dueland web site? |
Thanks Guys
David $800 hook up wire! To me confusing I did not expect the improvement I got from Duelund caps but $800 wire I guess I can not wrap my head around that giving me bang for the buck? I will not spend anything like that on wire as I (think) I would rather get Duelund caps for an amp than hook up wire. Maybe it is me?
Anyone have feelings on wire $ compared to elsewhere? My gut says Amps yes caps yes tubes yes but wire??? |
Dear Volleyguy,
Congratulations on getting ready to finish the crossovers. I plan on mounting my Duelund based network for the Klipsch KLF-20's external to the speaker cabinents on butcher block wood. I will solder the hookup wire to the speakers using silver based solder. I have some Kimber speaker wire on hand but I am still considering the Duelund silver hookup wire at $800.00. Speaker terminals will be Cardas. I am using the North Creek 8 guage inductors.
I look forward to other posters ideas and your listening impression with the"finished" product. Thank ypo for posting this topic. |
I use .5-.75" MDF, zip ties and/or hot glue.
Drill holes though the MDF for the zip ties then use a router on the bottom to cut a .25" line between each set of holes so the board can sit flat. Or if you are mounting the crossovers externally, you can built a box out of red oak or another nice wood.
As for chassis wire, what are you using for speaker wire?
I normally use Neotech solid core, but may try Duelund next time. When using solid core, remember to twist or braid them. |
I am going to finish off the crossover build permanent.
Any recomendations on what to mount parts? And hook up wire? Nothing crazy as I am going to spend a bit getting a pre-amp and amp and upgrading it.
Thanks |
Another question my tech guy said that in the past the transformers could look different but in fact be the same inside?
Is that right? |
Getting the x202 (Old Fisher) rebuilt and it needs a new filter electolytic capacitor.
I wanted my Tech guy to use ASC recommended by Tempo Electric as the best caps for that purpose anyone ever use them?
He was ordering Cornell and I never even hear that name in Audio talk.
Someone mentioned about old parts not being as good, better not talk to my Tech guy (an older English guy trained on tube gear but works more on TV's now) who thinks todays parts are by and large pathetic garbage. He says Electrolytic caps today are sometimes lasting only a year and in years past (as in the American made vintage gear) 50 years was quite normal.
I want him to replace anything that is needed in the old amp and he says only replace what is needed because every new part will be a down grade. (don't like the sound of that)
He feels this way about TV's as well thinking they have never been built poorer than right now and the best era was late 70's before all the U.S. manufacturing went offshore.
I have told him to stick to Tempo's list of just Tier A. Duelund (which I already know) V Cap and ASC if they fit. |
Parts come in and they are not the right parts. Different output transformers. x101c and x101d are not the same I can see why one would get annoyed with this!!!! Both 7591 tubes but not the same transformers. x101d's are much larger! |
Fiddler yes excuse me of course you are right on Teflon. I do hope the V Caps sound great as I will be buying them shortly and I would be thrilled if they do. The V Caps certainly have a good reputation from all corners.
Maybe I should rephrase that to poly and not plastic (in general) as Teflon is of couse very slippery.
To be clear I should say I noticed a clear difference from the Mundorf Supreme and S/O to Duelund VSF in tone and timbre and when the signal went through the Mundorf the Duelund did not sound like it can. (my crossover is through the mid range then to the tweeter caps) |
"...the tone and timbre was not real anymore."
Several very HIGH-end amp and speaker manufacturers now include V-caps in their designs. Several of these same manufacturers have said publicly that V-caps are the best caps they have ever heard or "not heard". If the tone or timbre is off maybe you should look for the problem elsewhere. Just a thought :) |
My parts (output transformer) will be here shortly to fix the one really quiet Fisher I have and then I am have the caps done and from what I have found out, plastic the coupling caps will not be. I am likely to order V Cap Teflon's. Ummmm....Volley? Teflon IS plastic. In fact, it's about the most plastic plastic that plastic can be. Or maybe Chris V has a new "natural" source of teflon - perhaps the noted teflon springs of the planet Cestus III? |
In my custom speakers, there's only 1 cap in the HF circuit, so it would have only been the VSF or MR. In my Tannoys's, there's 3 caps in the HF circuit, the first cap everything passes through, then there is a cap in the contour filter, and a cap in a notch filter.
I made a comparison with Solen, Mundorf S/O, Clarity MR, and Duelund VSF in my custom speakers. In the Tannoys, I have run Solen, Sonic Caps, MR's, and VSF's. The VSF's and MR's have always been the clear winners. In fact, I believe both make even Mundorf S/O sound poor(soft, uninspiring).
Currently I'm running a VSF and MR's in the notch/filter circuits of my Tannoy's. It appears they mix well. In my custom speakers, MR's in the HF and bypassing the MP circuits. |
Mike
I would really like to know do you run the signal through the Clarity and then to the Duelund? If so I can understand you saying not that much better. I thought Duelund to not be worth the $ until run through a foil and then to the (of course foil) Duelund.
To me and I said to Frederik as good as find his caps I have found Steen's findings to be as important or more so. (really more so) My parts (output transformer) will be here shortly to fix the one really quiet Fisher I have and then I am have the caps done and from what I have found out, plastic the coupling caps will not be. I am likely to order V Cap Teflon's. So this is not just a Duelund thread (sorry Frederik) but a thread on Steen's findings who I think is really on to something. I put in one plastic cap in the circuit and night and day the tone and timbre was not real anymore. For me it is really thrilling to hear "real" sounding instruements.
Frederik alluded to it being the plastic holding a static charge. There is clearly something wrong with all the "improvements" in audio in the last 40 years when Stereophile as much as admitted a 500c was as good as anything made today. This should not be the case after 40 years a 500c should sound like an antique! I for one was embarassed when the antique x101d blew away my 10k pre/amp with all it's modern "improvements". I have to admit it took me a few months of two systems to go what the heck is going on! That is why I read his paper over and over to try and understand what he was thinking. Even Frederik said Steen used vintage (plastic free) foil until he came out with his own. |
Volley,
I have now heard Clarity MR's and copper Duelund VSF's in both my Tannoy's and custom speakers. I still stand by my opinion that imaging and dynamics are better with MR's. But, I could see how someone could still prefer Duelund due to their timbre. Their tonality is slightly better and they are also a little smoother. Not that MR's are harsh at all, but they don't hold anything back or color the music either.
Mike |
I am a nature boy as well in some projects, preferring cotton-clad wire to synthetic insulation, wood-encased output transformers to mu shields, wood enclosures to metal. But there are so many exceptions of necessity that forming a cult of nature around electrical materials is mostly fruitless. There are other cultist goals to pursue, such as building power supplies that avoid all electrolytic caps. And those who distain plastic caps must remember that teflon-- possibly the best dialectric material and the only known material on which a gecko cannot obtain traction-- is a synthetic. Nature boys should also consider winding their own resistors on wood dowels. |
Materials, yes I have a plastic man made knob on my preamp volume right now.. But when I change it to exotic natural wood from the forest of enchantment watch out!!! Again there are facts, and half truth myths in this hobby, not one size fits all sorry
And we will not get anything out of this accept each application will require something possibly different. |
I have not heard the CAST or VSF caps, but this whole "natural" vs plastic thing is a bit much for me. Are the Duelunds certified organic, too?
It seems to me that synthetic materials can be engineered to provide better, more consistent electrical properties than "natural" materials, and will certainly be more consistent from batch to batch. Take "spider silk" for example, which I believe Duelund uses - how consistent can that be? Doesn't it depend on what type of spider it comes from, what they eat, whether they are healthy, the weather, the air they breathe, the stage of their lifecycle they are in, etc.? Does Duelund have a spider farm where they produce the silk under carefully controlled conditions (maybe they do - which could help explain the cost of these things!)?
Mother nature is the consummate engineer, but she designs with an eye toward survival and reproduction, not optimum electrical and acoustical properties.
Somehow I feel an anti-technology bias creeping in here; "natural" is a hot marketing category these days, and I wonder how much of the supposed superiority actually exists over synthetic materials, be they foods, medicines, clothes or capacitors? |
Undertow
Yes this thread may be "WAY DEAD" but the quote saying not using resistors and inductors of 1979 quality. You say that as if 1979 quality was for sure a bad thing? Frederik even admitted that Steen until he came out with his own caps used vintage caps and in my tests the vintage foil blew away the modern Mundorf Supreme. The reason I have not replaced the inductor is not $$$ but I take getting the plastic very seriously and bringing more plastic in is not the direction I want to go.
I also ended up selling my "modern" $10k amp and pre-amp for a vintage Fisher x101d. It was not even close and the fisher did not have any 1979 parts only 1964 parts so the linear improvement in parts in time I question very much.
Even Tony who rates both Duelund caps as #1 and #2 in the world is really just saying that a high quality vintage cap made of all natural ingredients known for 100's of years is the best in the world. All the "modern" plastic caps are all of varying degrees somewhat inferior. |
Undertow
"use a mix as you see fit of VSF and MR's and your not missing much"
This has not been my findings as I said even months ago to me foil caps do not mix with plastic caps at all. That is why I asked Frederik about what was up with that.
I have often wondered if Arthur and others talking about how much of huge improvement the V Cap Teflons over other caps are is because they are not plastic? |
Face
Why are CAST so much better than VSF?
Massive noise reduction. The CAST make the VSF sound noisy in comparison. In my comments to Frederik I did mention that without a doubt I did not get the full Duelund effect if I ran a plastic midrange cap then signal goes into the Duelund tweeter cap.
I did get the full Duelund effect running the plastic free vintage foil in oil midrange cap into Duelund tweeter cap and did admit the difference from vintage foil midrange cap and Duelund was not massive and even Frederik did not dis the idea.
To Frederik I did say I did not get the full Duelund effect with my modern and quite pricey plastic filled SS amp.
So Face if your signal runs through the Clarity and into the VSF in my opinion you will not even be hearing (maybe 20%) of what the Duelund's can do for tone. If you do not get the full tone benefit of the VSF I can understand why you may like the Clarity better. I believe you the Clarity could be quieter that was the reason to go to Poly caps was it not? The VSF is about bringing real tones into the system and the CAST brings real tones with the black background of the best polycaps making the CAST as Tony says the best of both worlds. |
Dgarretson, exactly my point, if you read back thru this now WAY DEAD thread facts are that even with the original posters testing and other amature builders thoughts bottom line is all this stuff especially with the testing of the cast was done in circuits following or leading another cap of different type #1, secondly they are all done in Mono testing...
I have discounted 99% of this thread as just bantering about how one small difference could be heard in 30 seconds after re-configuring a single design 15 times.. All of above are premium caps, all will do a good job, better or worse is impossible to pinpoint with everyones application, but the cast is not a miracle pepper cap on eggs. Run full out real tested finished crossovers with consistent cap use, and no doubt 100% clarity cap or Duelund VSF will then show you what is necessary, but this also has to be done with resistors and inductors of quality not from 1979 integrating the other drivers in the system..
No matter what you will find other issues. Inexperience or experience will show this, but no doubt there are some good shortcuts along the way and a 600 dollar capacitor or a 6000 dollar amplifier can make some kinda difference, but is it perfect? Nothing is in the end, but getting close is the key. |
I agree that the comparison of caps is useless unless the caps have been deployed in matched stereo pairs-- or unless the speakers are compared to each other separately as mono point sources. Here are some examples of similar perceived phenomena: (1) Install fresh tubes in one channel of an amplifier and hear improvements in both channels; (2) Install a supertweeter that works above the "audible frequency range" and hear improvements below the frequency range of supertweeter. |
Face, these guys have not even compared the MR's in the same application, also this guy is doing it so half A$$ with one cap of one type on one speaker etc... I have ruled out any kinda true comparison... Set up a "STEREO" FULL fledged finished pair of crossovers THEN compare, not one cap one speaker at a time and we can get a true bead on the final results. By the way even in the applications from Humble hifi or whatever this guy is basically using these in Tweeters, thats fine and dandy, no doubt some of the premium caps show their slight differences in the more enhanced hi frequencys applications.
I would not worry about it, use a mix as you see fit of VSF and MR's and your not missing much. No doubt if you have the extra money and Space going for the 100% Cast system could be very nice, but nothing wrong with those MR's as a matter of fact they could be better in one speaker or electronic than a duelund, taste, preference, and final tone will be different for all. |
You guys are killing me...
Can anyone go into detail as to why the CAST's are so much better?
Comparing Clarity MR's to copper VSF's, the VSF's had better tonality/timbre, but the MR's were better in every other way.
I'm using a mix of Clarity MR's and copper VSF's in my Tannoy HPD-385's and am having fantastic results. I'm still tweaking the crossovers in my custom speakers and so far am happier with MR's over VSF's. Since the values needed (10uf, 68uf, 88uf) would be way too big for CAST's, maybe a mix of MR's and CAST as bypasses(10%) may be worth trying.
Mike |
Nothing better than a fine tube amp, the perfection of Duelunds, and Klipsch horns.
Have you changed any of the inductors such as the North Creek 8 guage? Check out Krell_Man system here at AudiogoN. Very nice Duelund eye candy.
Wishing the best in sound.
David Pritchard |
Hi David
There is no capacitor on the woofer circuit on vintage horn Klipsch. There is an inductor which I have not yet changed.
I have not tried Duelund hook up wire and the caps are still connected with Aligator clips. That is all going to change within a month. I wanted to really hear the difference and wanted another CAST vs. VSF test. I will go to upgraded terminal connections as well when everything is hard wired in. I do agree with Dgarretson that hitting many areas of weakness likely the way to go. It is where to spend limited $ I am sure duelund hook up wire is great but as big a jump as same $ on new coupling caps? or better tubes or going from VSF to CAST for tweeter caps etc? Fun hobby but trying to spend wisely can be tough but it is nice to know the kind of difference caps can make.
I have the 4 Fisher tube amps that I am testing and if that does not work will try another model. The x101d was so quiet I could hear around an instruement! Amazing! Unfortunately the other Fishers are not so good. I have a new output transformer coming to repair that amp. I have a x202 (uses 6BQ5 tubes) being repaired and may try a 400c with a power amp as well. Then I am going to mod one of the amps. My tech guy is slow! I have called and want to get this done. Itching to try out these Vcap Teflons or Duelund in electronics. |
Dear volley guy, I have the Klipsch KLF-20 speakers and have ordered the Duelund VSF caps for the midrange horn and also for the tweeter, along with the Duelund resistors. What capacitors have you tried on the woofer circuit?
Have you tried Duelund hookup wire from the crossover to the individual speaker drivers?
Have you tried different speaker terminals or are you using the original Klipsch terminal strips?
David Pritchard |
I hear that too many VCaps will leave a signature. Any feeling on that? Some say cool?
Volleyguy, I have not experienced that on my Sony SCD-1, I use four on the balanced output stage.
I fully agreed that the CAST are a big jump from the VSF, a huge jump from many other caps.
Cheers, |
Fas948 I hear that too many VCaps will leave a signature. Any feeling on that? Some say cool?
Fas948 nice to hear that you agree with the CAST I thought Tony should have rated them higher than 13.5 because to me they were almost as big a jump from vintage foil to VSF as from VSF to CAST. I was dumbfounded.
Fiddler I am glad the Vcaps were a big jump over the Mundorfs. Arthur Salvatore thinks they are the biggest thing to come out in Audio in the last decade. (he has not heard the Duelund's to compare)
No doubt CAST are amazing as I have one speaker on CAST tweeter caps (right now) and one on VSF and I could justify in my mind upgrading to the CAST but must admit to still really enjoying one VSF and one CAST in the tweeters. I have heard that you get most of the benifet of the better cap in the circuit even at small values. I have 2 equal ones in series and have of course no way to test how one CAST and one VSF sounds in comparison to two CAST's.
The V Caps do seem to fit well (for me) and as far as prices and not even in the same league. $40 a piece at 5 or more. Duelund VSF $219 and CAST do not even come in such small values but start at $300++.
In small values V Cap prices really drop Duelund's do not. at 2uf like my tweeter caps VCaps are $322 each vs $180 for VSF and $361 for CAST. |
I have the Vcaps plus Deuland VSF on my CDP (soon to be upgraded with CAST). Vcap & VSF are both excellent caps, they share similar sound qualities and it really comes down to personal taste. The CAST on the other hand are by far the very best, no cap that I know of comes even close the CASTs sound performance and I have tried many of top caps on the market today.
In terms of size, getting the Vcap & VSF installed on electronics will depend on the cap value. However in my case installing the VSF was easier because of their flat shape.
Cheers, |
VCaps are fabulous. I would be very curious to hear how they compare to Duelunds.
I went from Auricaps, to Mundorf Supremes to VCaps in my DAC and preamp and the VCaps were easily the biggest improvement hands down. I thought the Mundorfs were a big improvement over the Auricaps, but the improvement the VCaps made over the Mundorfs was even bigger. |
TempoElectric really likes them and i seem to find them very accurate in their findings. |
I have parts coming and am getting on to fixing up an amp.
Anyone ever try VCap Teflons in Electronics? I am starting to weigh size and price options.
I would love Duelund but price and size might be a problem. |
I did some more testing with Claritycap MR's and Duelund VSF's and am truely
stumped. I had an 6.8uf VSF on my tweeter and the soundstage was amazing, then
I ran 3.3uf, 2.7uf, and .82uf MR's in parallel(to achieve 6.8uf) and the
soundstage sucked. For the hell of it, I decided to lower my crossover freq and
threw a 10uf MR on my tweeters and the soundstage opened up just like the VSF. So it
appears using 3 caps to make up the value I needed could have been the issue. Now with the
MR's, it's more dynamic with a blacker background, with slightly better separation, but sometimes cymbals are a little
sharp. In comparison believe the VSF's may have a slight edge in tonality. Which
leads me to this, has anyone tried both the CAST's and MR's? If the CAST's have all of the
MR's characteristics with the tonality of the VSF, then we have a winner, then the only issue left is cost(ouch!)
Best of all though, my speakers measure even flatter with the larger value, I just hope I don't exponentially lower the life span of my tweeters. :D |
I have put the CAST back in one speaker in the tweeter and the VSF in the other just to see if my earlier impressions were still the same and whether I should buy VSF coupling or CAST but I kind of had my mind made up on this even before hearing again.
For sure a large part of me agrees with Dgarretson on balance.
Not doing this again as I only end up frustrated. It shouldn't be but it is.
The CAST make the bass way tighter, deeper and easier to follow. I know they are tweeter caps but they cut noise so much they tilt the sound downward and make it even more natural. For all the guys on here singing the praises of CAST over even VSF saying it is a whole different level they are right but Frederik the prices! Frederik I would love to go CAST everywhere but would have to re-mortgage the house to do it! They should be standard on highend gear. To bad all gear was not made with these caps.
I going to switch back and put one CAST and one VSF in (and I was very happy) before I do something stupid. |
Vintage Mica caps? Steen talked about these being very good sounding. Anyone ever heard them? Wikipedia says they were manually intensive and high cost.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_mica_capacitor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_(component) |
Thanks Fas948 that is what I would expect but have never done an amp upgrade. Heck until I read Steen's paper on what matters in a system I would always have just bought new gear. After the cap (Duelund VSF and CAST) upgrade in the speaker not only the best money I spent I now understand why guys mod gear.
I did want to ask you did you come from plastic caps in the amp before? If that was the case I can easily imagine the change as it would be a fundemental change from no plastic as well as quality change.
Until I rebuilt my speakers I was on the upgrade itis that companies have you on. That is when I found Arthur's site and he said there had not been any real big improvements in amps in 40 years and if a company told there was they were lying. Then finding out from Frederik that even Steen used vintage caps until he made his own convinced me we were not really on the right track. |
My system makes extremely real sounds but could benefit from quieter (but even more real sounding) caps in the amp.
Volleyguy, there is no doubt in my mind that once you upgrade the caps on your amp with Duelund caps the sound quality will be way beyond your expectation. You will defiantly get a quieter background and if you use the CAST you will get more natural sound..
Cheers, |
That is great to hear Dave on the crossover being the most important (single cap) upgrade. I am quite excited to see what you will think of Duelund caps there. I think it is a fundemental change as opposed to incremental upgrade. The sound changes to real instruements that is hard to comprehend. That change has convinced me on Steen's findings on no plastic.
My system makes extremely real sounds but could benefit from from quieter (but even more real sounding) caps in the amp. I expect to be over the moon after that change. It is that "underlying calm" that I hope comes from coupling cap upgrade to Duelund. |
I now have about five hours on Claritycap MR in Merlin mid/woofer section, replacing stock cryoed Hovland. This covers 2200hz down to low 30s in one driver. This was a big step up-- and a reminder that midrange and LF is where the music lives. The stage opened wide and deep, dynamics are full of energy with underlying calm, and instruments and voices sound more natural.
Having already completed coupling cap upgrades in phono section, line stage, Merlin BBAM equalizer, and amp(using V-Cap TFTF and Mundorf Silver/Gold in about equal measure), I'm coming around to Duelund's viewpoint that the speaker crossover is perhaps the most important target for a signal cap upgrade. |
I just finished combining .47uf/200V NOS Russian FT-3 teflon caps into 1.5uf "superpacks" in power supply of an Atma-Sphere MP-1 preamp. There was a vast improvement in sonics. For outboard crossover one could try paralleling a bunch of these $8 teflon caps from ebay, up to a practical limit of say 6-7uf-- and likely obtain a high-performance crossover based on premium teflon caps for a few hundred dollars. |
Face, The CAST will make you appreciate music to a whole new different level, the VSF are excellent caps and the CAST are truly special.
Cheers
|
Face can't say about the difference from Aluminum to Copper but can say the CAST is a shocking reduction in noise.
I am going to put the CAST caps back in one channel and VSF in the other (for tweeters) now that they are fully broke in. The CAST are a bit dark when new. Part of me is afraid too. $$$$$ is why!
I am very interested in these CD mods like FAS948 and Dave have done. Putting Duelund in the CD player sounds great! What if a couple of caps makes a fairly cheap CD players sound amazing??
It may sound crazy but for me I would likely get rid of an Lp12. One thing with going to no plastic (exept in the CD player) is my CD player sounds wayyyyy better now than it used to. |
