Can you imagine a world without vinyl?

Eldartford: Am I correct in thinking from your post that your CD sound is being output from the player in analog, then reconverted to digital and back again in the EQ?

Shadorne...How many bits you need depends on the size of the bits. Lets suppose that the analog signal dynamic range going in to the A/D is 0 to 1.5 volts. If I make each bit 0.5 volts I can cover the range (represent a 1.5 volt sine wave) with just three bits. (Sign and two bit magnitude).

0 1 1 ..... -1.5 volts
0 1 0 ..... -1.0 volts
0 0 1 ..... -0.5 volts
1 0 0 ..... +0.0 volts
1 0 1 ..... +0.5 volts
1 1 0 ..... +1.0 volts
1 1 1 ..... +1.5 volts

Obviously the resolution is terible! If I make each bit 0.05 volts the resolution will be better, but I will need a lot more bits.

Until you decide upon a particular bit scaling, and analog signal gain the dynamic range and number of bits are not related.

Zaikesman...Correct. This is a multichannel system, and digital outputs are not available.

Shadorne...How many bits you need depends on the size of the bits

I think you will find that the quantization levels in D to A and A to D converters are fixed.

16-bit A/D conversion has 2^16 discrete numbers, or 65,536 quantization levels in the full-scale...so it has a granularity of 0.000015 or 0.0015 % of full-scale (full scale is like +/-2.5 Volts peak to peak) or roughly a quantization of around 0.03 milli-volts.

Even if you get more lights on, the quantization interval does not change, as it is tied to the full scale capabilities of the chip.

Note that the Behringer is a 24 bit ADC/DAC so we are talking about 16,777,216 quantization levels or signal granularity of 0.2 micro-volts (again a quantization granularity that is independent of which lights are lit up on the box)

=> So relax and simply stay well away from clipping if you have a studio grade 24 bit converter, as it means you have heaps and heaps of "digital" headroom to play with the digital signals using digital filters. Playing around with digital signals/filters (such as boosting one recorded channel immensely) is a good resaon to have the vast dynamic range of 24 bits so studios obvioulsy want that....but in general this capability is overkill for home play back of music. (Thankfully 24 bit DACs are really cheap so many of us have them anyway, whether they are really needed or not.)

Apparently, even the cutting edge of compressed digital audio realizes the importance of vinyl. The new Urge music downloading site has based its grand opening ad campaign around posters that read: "For those who really value music" (or something like that). The backround picture on this poster is a vinyl LP spinning on a TT with a tonearm on it. These posters are all over the NY subway system. One of the many ironies of this ad is that much of the target consumer for a site like Urge has never seen a TT in the flesh. Although I think that is changing. Even among the non-audiophile world, turntables are becomming hip with young people.

Bondmanp: The change to vinyl and turntables "becoming hip with young people" already occurred a long time ago now, but it was because of hip hop, not anything related to audiophile sound matters.

A definite Yes, I can live without vinyl! BUT Playing vinyls (for me) is a big part of fun listening and ritual.
But to be fair I think digital formats are getting better and better in sound quality. No pops and clicks... not to get-up from your listening position every 20 mins. Not to mention buying new vinyls can be costly now a days. Let alone prices of analog gear are also on the rise...just my two cents.

Shadorne....The number of D/A states is fixed for a device of a given number of bits. The voltage step from one state to the next (quantization) depends on how the D/A is designed. That said, the numbers you quote are about right for D/As used in audio applications. And with 0.03 mv for a CD and 0.2 microvolt for a DVDA one would think that either would follow a line level analog waveform darned well. However, don't forget that gain follows the D/A, and by driving the input harder the gain following can be less, so that one bit AT THE SPEAKER is a smaller voltage.

I notice much greater improvement by this adjustment of gains than with ceramic outlet covers :-)

and by driving the input harder the gain following can be less, so that one bit AT THE SPEAKER is a smaller voltage.

I notice much greater improvement by this adjustment of gains than with ceramic outlet covers

I don't question that you hear an improvement....I am just disconcerted why a higher or lower gain in the preamplification stages should make such a difference. (Might some clipping somewhere be eliminated through your adjustements.... line level mismatches between studio and consumer levels perhaps?)

It would be harder to imagine a world without the Compact Disc than Vinyl....yeah vinyl sounds good but is difficult and expensive to get the performance and ease you get with even an average CD player. Also having Disc players in cars and portable stereos has made many more contributions to society the Vinyl, is Vinyl better?, I in some ways think yes and in many ways think no......let the debate roll on.

Perhaps "high-end" refers to the High, Harsh end of the musical spectrum which CDs are so efficient at? That grain which makes you want to turn the "music" down, after a whole CD of listening, and, reaching for the bottle (of Tylenol) to sooth the headache brought on by the digitized bits of daggers drilling into your little over abused (by marketing hype) heads?
Oh...
I'm sorry, just teasing.
But, do get up once in a while. You'll get a pressure sore if you don't get up off the couch.
Can you imagine a world with out the couch, too? And the Tylenol?

If my listening room weren't also the living room, I'd eliminate the couch and make a permanent dancefloor.

If I imagine a world without vinyl, I imagine the death of high end audio, How many manufacturers will go under when it is finally accepted (in an imaginary world lets say) that Digital is better than vinyl.
I heard not without sadness a couple of months ago a friend tell me that he was trying to sell his beloved Leika camera with the complete set of lenses and could get nothing on Ebay, he even accepted, yes digital photos in high res are better, much better than film. I had heard this statement already from another photographer friend of mine and we also discussed the issue of digital images bieng much more convenient (nobody here will dare challenge this statement). So there goes my dark room, my 3 big trays, my gallons of liquid, my red lamp, my special table with metal margins, all the parafernalia for developing I have stored somewhere...imagine a world without vinyl?
Imagine a Teres wood turntable half burnt inside a dumpster in a NYC street, imagine your Triplanar arm stuck with no box in your sock drawer cause you didnt have the guts to throw it away, you pick it up and a thread from your wool sock is stuck on the needle of your Koestu Urushi, you proceed to very carefully with shaking hands unwrap the thread from around the stylus when you notice it is completely ruined, imagine your 50 boxes of LPs out in the yard under the rain and you are looking at them with a tear in your eye while your grandsons are thowing stones at the boxes with who knows what inside, you are holding in your hand a remote with a screen on it and all the music in those boxes is at your palm, alphabetically ordered by song by author by performer and yes it does sound better, you remember the ten times you rehooked your Micro Seiki 8000 only to notice after the first couple of minutes your new XXX internet player does sound better, you kinda remeber now that there were some details you enjoyed better on you TT only to realize again that for the eleventh time you might drag the air pump from the basement, lift the 40 pound platter and rehook the entire setup to be shown again that yes, it is not better that the new digital.

Did I paint a clear enough picture of a world without vinyl yet?

Hope I didnt break anybodys heart....

Sic transit gloria

Jsadurni, it's human nature to resist change. But, change is the one thing you can count on. For sure, I can clearly see the day that you describe above. Frightening too.

That is a great story you wrote, is your real name Stephen King?

Yes, it's heartbreaking that people go to the trouble to write this sort of tripe, and it's double-heartbreaking they come over to an analogue/vinyl forum to do so. Read this, it may help you develop an ear for music, if such things are the result of Nurture and not Nature: A Man Who Found Music

I am sorry I didnt mean to hurt (or tripe) anybody I was just picturing a world without vinyl, after I did come to find that picture film was gone.
I was a vinyl diehard, in the 80´s a friend brought over to my place one of the first CD players to show me how it was better than vinyl,we hooked it up to my Fisher 6BQ5 tubed amp (sacrilege in those times) and we compared both CD and Lp (Rush Moving Pictures) and it was clear to me then Vinyl was better (even my friend agreed) I had a NAD TT with an AudioTechnica MM cartridge back then. I bought my first CD in 1994 (Marillion "Brave") and a Nakamichi CD player to go with it, LPs were getting scarce by then.
Yes I am on your side, with vinyl I breath better, but I do enjoy CD playing and have been putting more money into Digital than into vinyl lately, I sold my very expensive preamp with phono about a year ago and I am looking for a good phono stage. So I have been without vinyl for a while and I am surprised I havent missed it that much.
So hang me...

All the Best

If I imagine a world without vinyl, I imagine the death of high end audio.

How many audiophiles will we loose when it is finally (erroneously) accepted that Digital is better than vinyl?

I heard not without sadness a couple of months ago a friend tell me that he was trying to sell his beloved Leika camera with the complete set of lenses and could get nothing on Ebay, he even accepted the fact that digital photos in high res are much better than film.

This is partially true because in digital photography the quality output is in the hands of THE CREATOR who controls the resolution of THAT digital format.

Digital camera format, resolution and processing has substantially improved in quality every few months for the past 10 years. The digital format for our audiophile music system is approaching it's 22 birthday, still stuck in the same limited format controlled by music giants with no intention of catering to our need for great quality.

...imagine a world without vinyl?
Imagine a Teres wood turntable half burnt inside a dumpster in a NYC street, imagine your Triplanar arm stuck with no box in your sock drawer cause you didn’t have the guts to throw it away, you pick it up and a thread from your wool sock is stuck on the needle of your Koestu Urushi, you proceed to very carefully with shaking hands unwrap the thread from around the stylus when you notice it is completely ruined, imagine your 50 boxes of LPs out in the yard under the rain and you are looking at them with a tear in your eye while your grandsons are thowing stones at the boxes with who knows what inside.

Yes, that could happen when you're old enough to have grandkids. So go ahead and fool yourself into believing that the digital format is the best, and you give up the possibility of hearing how wonderful and natural real music can be. Perhaps you even know this, deep in your heart but like so many today, unwilling to make the commitment. Just attack what requires more work, attack what you don't have, attack what your not committed to with the sour grapes routine

You can fool yourself, holding in your hand a remote with a screen on it and all the music in those boxes is at your palm, alphabetically ordered by song by author by performer.

it's called an iPod or music server and it does sound better because most people no longer have a superior analog format to it compare to.

....you remember the ten times you rehooked your Micro Seiki 8000 only to notice after the first couple of minutes your new XXX internet player does sound better, you kinda remeber now that there were some details you enjoyed better on you TT only to realize again that for the eleventh time you might drag the air pump from the basement, lift the 40 pound platter and rehook the entire setup to be shown again that yes, it is not better that the new digital.

far better to tell yourself that what you have now is better. After all, it's SO much easier, SO much cheaper and SO very modern. It MUST be right format because it's what's easily available. There is no way the music giants would stick us with an inferior format just because it cost less and is controlled by two music companies. Later to come up with SACD in a half hearted effort because their patents were expiring and then left us holding the bag.

Did I paint a clear enough picture of a world without vinyl yet?

Yes you did, fortunately I don't have to live in that world

Hope I didn’t break Jsadurni's heart....because I did not correct his spelling errors, simply copied and pasted, so hang me....

Nauga's are now on the endangered species list. UniRoyal stopped breeding them and they are all but gone now.

Nauga

Don't take Johnnantais personally Jsadurni, it's him against the world and none of the rest of us digital-having heathen can express our affection for vinyl sufficiently enough to escape getting crushed 'neath his crusade of correction.

Yawn. Let's talk about something that matters -- like music.

I played three CDs today and enjoyed the frickin hell out of them. They majorly moved me. And no one's gonna bring me down about that. In fact, I think I'll go list them on the What's On Your Turntable Tonight thread now, and wave my hand in the air like I just don't care...

Zaike, I say this with fond affection, no disrespect.

DO take Johnnantais seriously, if not personally. I did, and I am once again a vinyl addict! His efforts to enlighten us to what is truly in the grooves has kept me busy (and off the streets, the world owes him for that) building and rebuilding these amazing machines which can spin a record in perfect time-
The awesome Lenco.
Rhassan never sounded so good. (Correction: he was better at the Hoo-Haw).

Ah, the acolyte and the apostle. Ok, he has my thanks for you. As for me, I never quit vinyl, so I'll skip the enlightenment. ;^)

NO,I would sell my whole system and watch HD television and movies.And probably spend more time at the gym.

Zaike: you could hit a Lenco & refurbish it a la Nantais. It's great fun -- really!