Then I guess ....it's over then.
But let me know if that little voice is still talking to you in a few days and saying...."what if that lonely ,little obnoxious,crazy ,lazy ,good for nothing, nut job was right" Give me a buzz
later dude.
At least you didn't become hostile towards my weirdness.This speaks volumes about you....You are ready for IT |
I strongly agree about Avante Garde Duos and SET. The horn colorations are obvious but they have magic in their musical presentation. They do not have any better dynamics than a regular cone speaker. Based on my listening I think this is a myth. Yes, they can play loud but their dynamic range = difference between loud and soft is no different than, say, B&W or Opera speakers. You'd need Quad ESL's for better micro dynamics but they don't play loud like the Avante-Garde's.
Staying on the "audiophile" track I liked ATC active 100's which have very dynamic bass and can play 115dB all day.
But if it was me, I'd go with a good full range single driver speaker with no whizzer like Bob Brines Fostex FT-200 speaker. You can't get high SPL and good sound for the most part. Also most speakers that play loud can't play soft. It's either one or the other.
If you ever lived with a good single driver speaker you be surprised:
* time and phase coherent.
* sound from point source.
* No change in voicing as with multiple drivers of different materials.
* Excellent PRAT.
* No crossover to add distortion, coloration, absorbs power and the dynamic range of music. As Bobby Palkovic at Merlin said, even adding one capacitor to the x-over creates audible nasty sound.
So the first thing you notice is no bass, no loud volume level, lack of detail, especialy in the HF. Wow, you say, this speaker sucks. But live with it for a while and you get over the audiophile traps and realize real musical satisfaction does not come from these things. My experience anyhow. |
Newbee, I have switched everything in my system around trying to figure out where the channel varriation is coming from. Im fairly certain its the room. Not all frequencys are different in the same way. I dont have the chart in front of me so these are not the actual numbers but it goes something like this:
R at 100 hz + 6db
R at 150 hz - 6db
R at 15 khz + 12db
R&L at 200hz same
etc.
My room is in the basement. Luckily it has an 8' ceiling but there is a step. Directly above the listening position is the entrance to the upstairs, a sunken entry which results in a bumb in the basement ceiling. This bump extends out from the right wall about feet and is about 8 feet long and 15" deep. Could this bump be causing some problems along with the fact that the wall the speakers are on is not perpedicular to side walls. I talked about it in earlier post.
Cdc, I never said any speaker sucked. I chose the 3As because of the speakers that are available for me to demo they were the best for the money. Thats why I bought them. |
Bravo, I'm not sure how to interpert your measurements. Are you saying that (1) the right channel at 100 hz is +6db over a 1K tone measured on the R speaker or a 1K tone measured on both speakers, or (2) 6db over the L speaker output?
One thing to consider in making measurments/adjustments in the mid-lower bass response is that much (but by no means all) of the info there is mono. Rather than focusing on the difference between each speakers output below 200 hz I would look at the summed output of both speakers. Also, consider that most of the balance issues are more apparent from tones in the mid range and highs, so while your might have an imbalance in the lows (between speakers)if the summed output is balanced with the upper frequencies you might never hear it.
In general the corresponding node and null at 100 and 150 hz suggests to me a problem which might be curable by altering the speakers or listening position, however if this ratio is close to the same no matter where you place your speakers and/or chair it is a room problem. You would want to fix this either by using appropriate bass traps or a good parametric equalizer. A 12 db swing is going to be very audible. BTW this could be a result of your rooms construction.
That 12db rise at 15kz is not likely to be related to your room - it could be the equipment used to make your tests or it could be a problem with your electronics or speaker. You could easily check this out by using a process of elimination in switching electronics and speakers one piece at a time.
What are the other measurements between 1k and 15k for the right speaker and for the left speaker? IMHO, your balance problem is more likely because of disparate speaker response, or untreated reflection points, some where between 500hz and 5000hz than anywhere else. |
"In all fairness the 3As are not completely broken in but I dont think they will improve to the extent I want them to over the course of the next 30 hrs."
But you don't seem to be happy with them.
"I am not one of those thin skinned audiophiles that cries like a baby when someone has the audacity to insult their precious gear."
Okay, but I never even mentioned anything about your speakers being good or bad. |
Cdc I was reffering to your comment. "Wow, you say this speaker sucks". I am just trying to clarify that I think they are good for the money but I am to a point where I realize no comination of "hi fi" components and recorded media is ever going to sound like the real thing. Its my own fault for thinking I could make it happen even though Ive never heard a system that could. I guess it just shows my lack of experience. It was a very expensive lesson. Thanks for your response. |
I am very pleased with my GamuT CD1R for source, but if you are looking for perfection, the Reimyo 777 CDP probably would take you another step beyond the Wadia 861. From my experience, when you finally get your system fine tuned, nearly live music results. I can truly say I experience it. I was at the St. Louis Jazz festival a couple weeks ago, at the Opera a month ago and live performance of My Fair Lady last weekend. I listened to same jazz performers at home, Madame Butterfly at home and Sound of Music at home which sounded just about as good to me. I am sure there are many better systems out there, but my argument is you can approach live music at home. It is not impossible. From what I know your speakers, however may be somewhat veiled. I predict if you put your speakers on sistrum stands, you would be amazed the improved clarity |
Can HI FI components really make music?.....no
Can you learn to make a WHOLE system...room and tools etc,make you smile again ...yes....Go beyond what you thought was possible and blow the doors out of all hi-fi....hell yes |
My apology on my mis-statement regarding the 3A Sig. possible veiling. I was thinking of an earlier vintage Vandy. I still recommend the Star Sound sistrum platform appropriate for your size speaker. It can make a big difference. Product is guarenteed. |
I have played live music for the past 30 years and have played in my symphony for the past 15 years.The speaker that comes very close to the recreation of a live event our my Martin Logan QuestZ's.My Grado Reference Phono Cartridge The Reference also adds to that sense of real playback your looking for .I wrote a review on this cartridge and should write a product review on the Quest Z's as well.Don't throw in the towel yet.With careful listening you can find something out in AUDIO LAND. |
it's a zen thing. what the heck is music really?! what you THINK you are looking for is not to recreate noises generated through musical 'instruments'. if the PLAN calls for you to be neurotic about this stuff then that is what happens. you may think you have a choice but that is part of the divine hypnosis of human experience. obviously your $$$ system and tweaking is not the 'problem'. everything is relative in human experiences. the searching 'Doer' is the conceptual impediment. then again it could be speaker cables... or migrating wildfowl smashing into elec. wires |
Hi Braro, I was talking about a single driver speaker, not yours. I don't think I'm all that experienced, just like sharing what I have discovered. Maybe it does some good. |
Cdc, I think we are on the same page now. When I made the comment about me being inexperienced I meant just that. It was not dirrected at you in the least. Sorry for the confusion and thanks again for the advice. |
Just wanted to give everyone an update. After much tweaking I have come to the conclusion that HI FI just wont do what I want. Im going to sell everything and build a small, simple system for background music. No more critical listening. I will be posting adds for my gear here soon.
Thanks |
If you really enjoy music, I would recommend more then background music. You could rebuild a simple system after researching which would be emotionally involving to listen to at more exciting volumes without being critical. My system lends itself to just enjoying the music. I do not have a very expensive system, but one which is painstakingly put together. I believe many music lovers out there have systems they enjoy. In my particular system, I believe a few things have made a real difference.
1. A CDP with very low jitter distortion aided by a digital filter in the AC line. Excellent mechanical isolation.
2. Much of my collection are JVC XR CDs which are phenominally musical.
3. My preamp and amp both have single voicing with only one output device per channel
4. My speakers were designed meticulosly for seemless 3 dimensional silky reproduction.
5. Proper AC line purification has helped a great deal
6. Sistrum speaker stands made a real difference.
The secret is focusing more on the music and less on the system, but the state of the art is too good to throw in the towel. My system has no glare, edge, haze, grit, brightness, veiling, dullness, dryness, coldness, overly sweet or overly warm, mechanical, "digital sounding" or any of those negative qualities. It just sounds, natural, nonfatiguing, musical with nice bloom, harmonically rich and accurate timbre. I suspect there are thousands out there with similar results. Please don't give up!
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You should at least try to audition some different speakers, especially given the honest feedback you have received from many in this thread. You are going to sell them anyway, so sell them. Seek out a few suggestions, make a short-list, do some auditions, and see if it gets you closer.
My bet is if you sell everything, it will nag and nag you until you are all back in again in a couple of years. |
Sheffb, I think your comments are valid but can't find any info on your speakers. Links to more info ????
Just curious |
What you are after is possible, but do not expect ANY stock consumer gear to deliver the dynamics or clarity of a live performance. I dont care if you spend $150K, you will not get it. You should consider modifications of a piece that you really like the sound and ergonomics of. This article explains why this phenomena exists:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue15/modsnugent.htm
I have personally found that virtually everything in a typical system needs mods in order to deliver a dynamic live sound, or whatever was on the source tape, even the speakers.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Manufacturer/modder |
Herman, my speakers are Chapman Q6 three way towers. I have reviewed them on Audiogon and the other forum. The address and telephone number of the manufacturer are included. These were prototype speakers two years ago, but since then Stuart Jones made a pair for himself and a few other old customers. He does not sell through dealers nor advertise at this time to my knowlege. He said he was planning a web site. Stuart is very amiable, knowlegeable and I feel sure would be happy to talk to any audiophile on the phone. His speakers are well priced. He uses state of the art components. The Chapman T7s have been reviewed and well liked; also his former flagship the Q7s are even better,but the Q6s are probably his best accomplishment in 35 years because he has acheived better more three demensional imaging and sound staging. These are silky smooth organic sounding speakers, also. Just very natural. |
I'm back in the game and happy to report getting some very good sound. No, its not perfect but its damn good. I replaced the VTL mb125s with Parasound JC 1s. Every aspect of the sound has improved dramatically. Well, the midrange was a little sweeter with the VTLs but for me its worth the slight trade off for all the other benefits. The Vandersteens obviously need lots of power. They sound like a completely different speaker. I still may replace them in the future but for now they sound fine and they are not even broken in yet. This has been a very valuable lesson regarding system synergy. I really hated the Vandersteens until I paired them with the right amp. Now the sound very good. Best imaging and sound staging I have heard in my system yet. |
If a speaker tower falls in your living room and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?! |
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