Re: smaller gauge...there has been a huge boom in Duelund 16awg tinned CU speaker wire recently, sort of a knock-off of old Western Electric 16awg electrical wire (cloth-covered), which is still coveted and resold at remarkably elevated prices. Also available at a fraction of the Duelund cost is Belden 9497, seemingly same specs - 16awg, individual strands tinned, but manufactured as a twisted duplex, available for example on Ebay @ $0.99/foot. I plan on buying enough for double-runs to each speaker as part of on-the-cheap speaker cable evaluation. Anyone have any experience with any of the above?
Cheers. |
@compass_rose - RE: auxinput...so, how about just using No. 10/2 Romex cable...single Cu conductor, solid, unstranded? I have about 50ft left over from running 240V service for a wall heater...always curious how simple electrical wire would work in home stereo setup. Also, there is a stranded version as well - THHN #10, 19-strand pure Cu...cheap enough at Home Depot...not being sarky, a legitimate query. Yes - it will work, but do you want the best out of your system? How well it works depends on the origin of the wire. Not all Romex is equal Good Cables are designed to combat many EMI/RFI effects within the cable itself - Romex is not - the result is a "smeared" sound that lacks clarity, details, dynamics AND (guess what) bass extension But give it a whirl and then try a good cable - the difference should amaze you. Despite many opinions to the contrary - a thicker gauge is not always better - I was using 10 gauge - I now use 16/13 Gauge (i.e. Signal/Neutral conductors) AND I get better bass performance than the 10 gauge. It’s all about the cable geometry - i.e. how the conductors are positioned with respect to each other AND the gauge of the signal and neutral conductors - it is best if the neutral is a heavier gauge than the signal. It’s taken me a couple of years of tinkering with cables to come up with this approach on my Helix cables, I even tried Romex (not good), so I speak from experience. The cables I recommend in my post above are extremely good performers. There is little difference between them in sound quality. One is commercially available, the other is a DIY project. But feel free to try the Romex - you may not hear the difference, which would save you a bundle Regards - Steve |
A point of interest I want to make about Polarity of speaker leads.
Just because the amp has red on red and black on black, and the speakers are the same doesn't necessarily mean all is correct. Sometimes one needs to change the leads on one speaker and listen. I learned that lesson the hard way with a pair of Legacey Signiture speakers many years ago. |
Save your money and try 9 or 10awg with simple bfa plugs... Plenty of options, belden 5t00up, van damme hifi 6mm, furez 10awg.... Move your speakers a few inches left right back or forward. If that doesn't do it, tweek sub, or audition alternative speakers.
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Of course, this is completely anecdotal, but the deepest and most prodigious bass I have been able to get out of my speakers has been with Cerious Technology Graphene Extreme speaker cables. I was not expecting or prepared for how much difference they could make.
Prior to that, I was using an old set of thick, heavy stranded copper cable by Esoteric, which I would have thought would give great bass. The thing I like about the GE cables is that I don't even have to turn the volume very high to have the deep bass. And everything else is great with these cables as well, including mids, highs, imaging, and sound stage.
They used to offer a 30-day money back guarantee, not sure if that is still the case.
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Audioquest+1, my experience no cables can do what a subwoofer can do in terms of bass... |
auxinput...so, how about just using No. 10/2 Romex cable...single Cu conductor, solid, unstranded? I have about 50ft left over from running 240V service for a wall heater...always curious how simple electrical wire would work in home stereo setup. Also, there is a stranded version as well - THHN #10, 19-strand pure Cu...cheap enough at Home Depot...not being sarky, a legitimate query.
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@compass_rose - my point is not really to just get a larger cable. It's to look for solid-core conductors. I had a Beldon 5T00UP speaker cable, which is a larger 10awg cable, but it used a stranded bundle of copper. When I switched to the Audioquest Midnight, which is also a 10awg cable (but used large individual solid-core conductors), I had a significant increase in bass power, definition and quality. |
Compass, you actually hit on something. I was going to mention it but thought it was not worthwhile.
The reviews I read say they have a minimum impedance of around 3.9 ohms in the bass. That should be fine, but if your amp was weak for some reason then a softening in the bass is what you would get. This can make a speaker seem more "discerning" - I call it more demanding.
I would say changing amps is a better idea than cables.
Best,
E
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A brief point to note: for many years I had a classic Yamaha M-85 brute to service the speakers, and FWIW always thought the CM-4s delivered passable bass...unfortunately the amp went Chernobyl on me a few years ago, hence the Adcom. |
"auxinput"...I certainly understand the limitations to bass response conferred upon the speakers due to design specs, however I purchased the CM-4s new many years ago based not only upon reviews but actually listening to them in the dealer showroom. Really not sure why what was perceived by reviewers and myself re: more than adequate bass and what I'm experiencing currently. But do take your point re: 10 AWG (or bigger) cable to supply the woofers. Thank you for suggested cables to check out.
One lives in hope.
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Uhm, your B&W speaker's bass response is going to be a limitation on the design of the woofer (i.e. xmax, free air resonance, etc.) as well as the design of the cabinet/port. That being said, you can get stronger bass when you use speaker wire with larger solid-core conductors. You could try looking for some older Audioquest Midnight speaker cable. This is often available on ebay or usaudiomart. http://www.audioquest.com/archives/speaker_cables/spiraled_hyperlitz/images/midnight_c.jpg The Midnight is a 10awg cable and uses three 17awg conductors for each leg and has very strong bass transmission. Alternatively, you could also try something like Audioquest Type 8 if you want something newer. Type 8 may give you better resolution overall, but maybe not quite as strong bass. |
Thank you all for your considered responses. A few points to address: (1) Polarity of speaker leads rigourously maintained...checked and double-checked to be sure; (2) Speakers each back into a wall, and positioned ca. 12-18in. away; (3) Actually tried affecting bass response by dusting off a retired Carver C1 preamp with tone controls, and with bass fully engaged, a discernible gain in oomph noted...however, using same setting with aforementioned a/d/s towers, the pressure waves would crack drywall!; (4) Original query concerned music playback mainly...I have a sub which I utilise for DVDs/film streaming to capture LFE, but found it too boomy for music listening.
So, "sounds" like I'm bass-limited if I want to stick with the CM-4s, though they do offer superb resolution and articulation compared to the 1090s. But, being an empiricist at heart, and with a relatively low-cost outlay (raw cable, bare-wire termination), I can order up lengths of speaker cable of varying properties, and just run simple listening tests to see if any improvement in bass response can be achieved; however, I do share the opinion of "stereo5" that cables can't provide what speakers apparently lack, full stop.
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Hi Willie, I don't think the specification is the whole story. 38 Hz is fine for a -3dB point but it is the rest of the frequency response that determines the balance. WIlson's, Focal's and others have a bass bump (which is quite musical) in the bass, and everything else is below that. These B&Ws are curious in that the mid and treble are above the bass, making these speakers curiously lean, unless they are going to be used with a sub. These choices may have been done to improve the sensitivity. Take a look at the first chart here: https://www.soundandvision.com/content/bw-cm-series-surround-speaker-system-measurementsPlacement matters, of course, so close to a wall these speakers may greatly improve. Definitely not speakers to leave far from the walls. Best, Erik |
@compass_rose - If you look at the spec of this speaker it would appear that they only provide a low frequency of 38 Hz I would ask how low do you want to go? Unfortunately, no cable will assist in getting lower than 38Hz - you will need a subwoofer for that. These speakers are approaching the limit of what a 6.5" woofer can deliver. Changing to a speaker with 8" woofer could get you down to around 28 Hz and a 10" woofer even lower. I have Tannoy speakers with a 6.5" woofer (delivering low of 32Hz) on my A/V system and they lack the bass of the speakers in my Audio system which has an 8" woofer - with a low of 28Hz Having said that, one speaker cable that does perform exceptionally well and will allow your speaker to perform at their optimal level is the gZero6 from KLE Innovations. I highly recommend them and have reviewed them at length - see... http://image99.net/blog/files/228f7609149d575dd8dd8d956511e7c2-57.htmlThere are other models of cable, but the gZero6 offers the best bang for the buck for your speakers. If you would like a speaker cable more reasonably priced - try the gZero2. It outperformed my Van den Hul d352 10 gauge cable - providing a more detailed, faster and deeper bass. See... http://image99.net/blog/files/fac35e44c003d559714cdd73d86febf9-51.htmlAlso, If you do order either cable - ask for their Classic Bananas to be installed. It will probably be the last speaker cable you buy Regards - Steve |
Polarity is a good one. But first you need to verify the system is in correct polarity then try to find a source that’s also in correct polarity. If the source is CD it ain’t that easy to find one that’s correct. Most of them aren’t. Cable directionality is a 50/50 thing, Polarity of CDs is not, it’s worse.
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If bass seems to be missing try checking polarity, first. (+1 gnostalgick)
Then +1 geoffkait |
Cables can vary considerably in frequency response, including bass response. Some cables are bass heavy, some are bass shy. Some sound rolled off, sound have midrange suck out, we don’t know why. (Rhyme alert!) One tip is try reversing the cables since cables are directional and sound better in one direction than the other. This applies to all cables.
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Going by review data, the issue is really the speaker tuning. The CM4 measurements are almost tilted upwards. You could support it with a sub, move the speakers closer to the rear wall, or add some EQ.
The speakers seem, by measurement, to be more tuned for movies than music, which in an attempt to be more transparent, sacrifice a lot of bass.
Best,
E
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Check your system and room setup and maybe other speakers are necessary.
Have you connected the speaker cable incorrectly, that is connected them out of phase.
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Unless your cables are exceptionally long (30 feet+) or skinny (larger # than 16 awg), its unlikely to give a greater quantity of bass (better quality is possible). If the Adcom is in good shape, it should have enough power for your speakers. If bass seems completely missing have you tried checking polarity? http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_polaritycheck.php |
Don't waste your money. While different cables have different attributes, if you don't have much bass, no cable will magicly give you bass. |
