Can a power cord increase the resolution of an Class D (SMPS) amp by more than 5% ?

Curiouser and curiouser

Maybe McGyver will respond! He can make a good PC out of two straightened coat hangers!

The problem I have with the thrust of Al’s post is that he seems to be making the argument that the audio signal - I.e., the electromagnetic wave, the photons - is independent of the copper conductor and only depends on the dielectric characteristics. If that were true then the sound would not (rpt not) be subject to the conductor variables of metal purity, type of metal, type of crystal structure (e.g., single crystal, long grain), diameter of conductor, cable geometry, cryogenics, and direction of the wire.

No, I was not saying that or implying that. I was simply referring to the dependence of **propagation velocity** on the dielectric. And I was doing that to support the fact that the electromagnetic wave, which is what conveys energy and propagates at near light speed, propagates via the dielectric, not within the conductor.

As I said earlier in this and other threads:

... energy is being transferred ... in the form of an electromagnetic wave comprised of photons that is distinct from although intimately related to the AC current.

"Current," as thought of in the conventional sense involving movement of a certain quantity of electrons within a conductor, and therefore the electromagnetic wave associated with that current, are both affected by resistance, capacitance, inductance, and various other factors including many that you mentioned.

It is debatable how much of the electromagnetic wave travels outside the wire and how much inside fhe wire. Is it 80/20? 50/50?

Putting aside the phenomenon of "superconductivity," the resistance of any conductor is not zero. Consequently if a conductor is conducting a current it will absorb a small fraction of the energy associated with that current, and convert it into heat. The resistance of the conductor will be (or at least should be) such that the energy absorbed by the conductor is extremely small. Since energy is conveyed by the electromagnetic wave, though, photons will carry whatever energy is absorbed by the conductor into the conductor. So photons "travel" inside the wire only to the small extent that energy is absorbed by the wire.

Al seems to be hedging his bet bet when he states the signal DOES NOT travel within the conductor, then immediately says it travels primarily outside the conductor.

I used the word "primarily" for two reasons:

1)What I said just above about a small amount of energy being absorbed by the conductor.

2)Depending on the thickness of the dielectric, shielding that may be present, and other factors in the design of the cable some of the signal energy may propagate outside of the dielectric, in the air.

... this thread concerns power cords so it should be pointed out that there is no “audio signal” involved. Which begs the question what is the “signal” traveling down the power cord? Is it also an electromagnetic wave, like the “audio signal,” or is it something else?

I was using the term "signal" to refer to the electromagnetic wave corresponding to electric current of any kind, that is being conducted via wires. Including AC power.

Regards,
-- Al

As I understand it, the EM wave itself does not produce sound directly.   The electrons that move back and forth at certain frequencies (as determined by current voltage and resistance) in an AC current as a result of the EM wave does.      

In the US the "signal" would be a 60hz sign wave and at 120v

The concept of a dielectric conducting any signal in the audible spectrum of 20-20hz is ridiculous 

As frequency increases, the Dielectric starts exhibiting shunt resistive losses which can be measured and quantified as signal loss across the termination load. Fortunately for our application (audio) these shunt losses don't begin to surface until frequencies much higher than the audio bandwidth.

The concept of a dielectric conducting any signal in the audible spectrum of 20-20hz is ridiculous

What I said is that the electromagnetic wave associated with a current propagates essentially outside of the conductor, and therefore propagates via the dielectric. I was NOT saying that the "current" itself, as conventionally thought of in terms of the movement of electrons, is conducted by the dielectric. Please re-read my posts and also the Wikipedia writeups I referenced.

Regards,
-- Al

Above I said:

The electrons that move back and forth at certain frequencies (as determined by current voltage and resistance) in an AC current as a result of the EM wave does.  

In that post I meant to say

The electrons that move back and forth at certain frequencies (as determined by current voltage and resistance) in an AC circuit as a result of the EM wave does

AC circuit, not current.

IMHO, I have never heard any audible difference using "directional" cables ever. Knowledgeable manufacturers (Belden, Canare, etc) don't put arrows on their cables because those products are not directional.
There is one good indication for those arrows, it means one should probably not purchase those products.

Hi Zuio,
 Your question of " Can a power cord increase the resolution of an Class D (SMPS) amp by more than 5% ?" I would say "no". Your question involves much more than an AC power cord. One needs to look at the entire "chain" of components used. Chasing your "5%" by changing AC cables will only drain your wallet. 

 

Please read Michael Fremer's short review of Audioquest Dragon Source power cords in May 2018 issue of Stereophile, and form your own conclusion....

mr_m

anyone who buys or considers buying a >3K power cord should have their head examined and fully deserve to have their wallet drained.

absolutely absurd that anyone would buy something like that!

Its interesting that no one has been able to measure what they claim to correct but somehow it can be heard.

I was at one of the local very high end audio stores listening to a pretty high end system, Wilsons, Audio Research and a Linn Klimax source.  The sales guys started doing something with the Linn asking me "do you hear that" then doing something again "do you hear the difference".  I did NOT know what was doing at that time and as it turns out could hear NO difference.  after 5-10 minutes of this he gave up and I finally asked him what we was  doing.  Turns out he was switching the ethernet cable with some unknown cable to a fancy, very pricy (no arrows though) >$500 CAT? cable. I started laughing because I really could not hear a difference and should not have.  I asked what the unknown cable was, CAT5? CAT5e, CAT6 and what there network was, 100m, 1g etc He DID NOT know and he didn't know what the fancy cable was either.  He claimed he can hear the difference and will be selling lots of them his customers who spend $25K on a Linn Klimax.

azbrd,

I totally agree with you. I have heard minute differences with some upgraded (and somewhat inexpensive) power cords. Most of that being tiny variations in (audible) frequency response. I was just bringing to attention to the large variation in SQ that Mr. Fremer claims to be hearing. It is most definite that I do not agree with him. But that is just my opinion. I cannot afford to dish out several thousand dollars for power cords and even if I could, I'm not sure I would....

I have heard minute differences with some upgraded

Could that maybe read "I think I have heard minute differences with some upgraded  (and somewhat inexpensive) power cords." 
If so bet in a blind A/B that "think" would be even more emphasised to the point of maybe the wind changed direction, or the amp came up to it's heat stable bias setting.

anyone who buys or considers buying a >3K power cord should have their head examined and fully deserve to have their wallet drained.

I  just looked at these and it's $5k for the 2mt one and $7K for the 3mt one!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers George 

IMHO, If one was to consider spending such funds on (1) AC cable per component, the superior choice would be to either hire a competent electrician or DIY (if so inclined) and have your AC wiring upgraded to multiple dedicated AC circuits, a new 300 - 400 amp service, new isolated ground, hospital grade, 20 amp receptacles and dedicated copper ground rods. One would probably have enough left over to include multiple data center grade double conversion ups’s, surge suppression in the service disconnect and a "sharpie" to write arrows on the romex cables. With the exception of the "sharpie" that is what I have done to connect my components to. It was a DIY project and cost about $6k, easily one of the best investments towards better sound I have ever performed. I also called my local power utility company when I installed the new service as they would have to connect their service wires to the new service panel, I showed the service guys my audio equipment. They installed a new transformer from the 3 phase power they provide and installed new copper wiring from it to my new service. I really lucked out on that one but I HAVE been paying their company over the decades. What I am trying to illustrate here is don’t hesitate to ask your power company for better AC power. Additionally, don’t forget to clean ALL of your connections every 6 months or so to prevent oxidation from building up. It will not make anything "sound" better but you won’t compromise anything to poor or oxidized connections. I get a "warm fuzzy" from doing this. YMMV.

ampzillaOne

You mention "dedicated copper ground rods", are you suggesting these be installed in a separate location?  If so, that would violate code and create a nasty ground loop potential.  Other than that I very much agree with your suggestions.  For my setup I have a dedicated 20amp circuit for my audio system.

No, I have (2) 10' copper ground rods bonded together and then connected to the breaker panel ground as close as physically possible.

Seems unlikely.

...in the form of an electromagnetic wave comprised of photons...

Can you explain how photons travel through wire?  Then can you explain how passively monitoring the classic double slit experiment changes the results?  

@Buckhorn_Cortez, if you are referring to one of my earlier posts, I did not say that photons travel **through** wire. In fact I said that they don’t, aside from those corresponding to the small amount of energy that may be absorbed by the resistance of the wire and converted to heat. My basic points were as follows:

(a)In the case of electrical signals or power being conducted via wires, energy is conveyed via an electromagnetic wave. That is why the energy can propagate at near light speed, even though individual electrons move at vastly slower speeds.

(b)In the case of electrical signals or power being conducted via wires, the electromagnetic wave propagates **outside** of the conductors, aside from the slight exception I mentioned above. That is why propagation velocity is affected by the dielectric constant of the insulation surrounding the conductors. Also, if the energy of an electrical signal or power was not conveyed via an electromagnetic wave propagating outside of the conductors, transformers wouldn’t work.

(c)All electromagnetic waves, not just light waves, are comprised of photons.

Also, as indicated in one of the references I provided, photons exhibit properties of both waves and particles. I’m not familiar with the double slit experiment you mentioned, but I suspect it involves their wave properties.

Regards,

-- Al

OK, good question. How do we know that the electromagnetic wave that travels through a copper or other metal conductor is comprised of photons? There are several clues. One clue is that all electromagnetic waves are comprised of photons, not just EM waves in the visible light spectrum. All radio waves, from ELF to VLF to SHF to UHF are also electromagnetic waves and are comprised of photons. Same for more energetic EM waves like X-rays and Gamma waves. They are all photons but with different energies. Satellite communications - also photons. Another clue is that we know there is a 1/4 second up and down delay associated with satellite communications for satellites in synchronous orbit, which most are. That delay of 1/4 second is due to the speed of photons which we know to be constant in a vacuum of 186,000 miles per second. The up and down distance for satellite communications is about 48,000 miles. That explains the 1/4 second delay. Are you with me? Then assume the audio signal is an electromagnetic wave. There is a lot of evidence for that especially that the audio signal travels at some large fraction of the speed of light in audio cable. We also know how fast audio signals travel through the copper cable and or optical fiber based telephone system. It’s also a large fraction of the speed of light.

Even if you want to accept the theory that much of the audio signal travels through the dielectric and outside the wire per se, you’re still stuck with the conclusion that the audio signal is an electromagnetic wave and therefore comprised of photons. Obviously photons can travel through solid materials since visible light can travel through air and water, those are obvious examples. Other obvious examples are RFI traveling through concrete and glass and your microwave-based mobile device’s capability to operate inside a house or apartment building or shopping center.

re the Double Slit experiment - the famous Double Slit experiment demonstrated that LIGHT, i.e., photons, acts as both particles and waves. The visible light photons don’t pass through the solid material, only through the slits. The interference pattern that showed up on the other side of the Double Slit experiment was proof that the individual particles of photons fired through the slits acted like waves. They interfered with each other. Of course we know now that all particles act as waves also, electrons, neutrons, even a bowling ball would exhibit wave properties - if you could build the proper experiment. By the way, the Single Slit Experiment also produces an interference pattern. What?! 😬

Al, you’re not familiar with the Double Slit experiment? Shirley you jest. 😁

Thanks @geoffkait  

Here is a simple animation to illustrate the 'very slight delay.'

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/mmedia/waves/em.cfm

Shirley you jest.

As Leslie Nielsen said in the movie "Airplane," which I'm sure you've seen, "don't call me Shirley" :-)

BTW, I agree with everything in your post.

Regards,
-- Al 

In the beginning of 2015 I started to do new research in electricity. In 2002 I already started to test powercables, and mann they can make a huge improvement.

You need to maximise everthing first before you can use powercables at the max. You need to create a separate audiogroup for your audio. To use better electricity cables from where it starts to your outlet.

And you need the best conditioner for the money you can get. And here you have the same problem based on the fact that most conditioners are incomplete and not able to reveal all the different properties of sound.

All the trail and error peopel have no F idea which properties are there and which are missing. They all do audio by pure gambling.

But........electricity is much more complex. Also in 2015 I started to do research in smog, magnetism and high frequent noise. I always have many conversations with people who are specialized in these areas. And we have conversations sometimes for hours on the phone.

They have not the time I have and not the level in audio as I own. But they still give me great information and ideas. I also read a lot on the internet of all the different parts.

I made huge steps in the last few months. Like a client of mine said; you are able to put knowledge on knowledge over and over again. It is like I am building a watchtower and it becomes higher and higher. I can see more things which I could not see and hear before.

The acoustics, electricity, smog, magnetism and high frequent noise have a huge influence on each part in your system. I can garantee you all that you have no F.idea how much you loose in quality and effectivity.

You only have access for a low % of the whole quality each single part in your system can create. The new Audioquest powercables created new things and options based on the adjustments I created in sound.

This make me reach a superior level out of any powercable. Which never can be reached by all those 1980 audio thinkers. I will invite the 2 people who are in charge of Audioquest Europe soon to show them and proof how low the level is what they can use of their new powercables

And after that I will let them hear what I created. And no I will never tell them how I do it. It is my knowledge and ideas and they are not for free.

Beside the knowledge they also only can think at the level of a child. What I told them on the phone. They also do audio by trial and error. It cost me thousands of tests and almost 20 years to be able to think at this level.

It is that difficult to understand it. When I say; I see you as children it is no F joke. It is a 100% fact what I can proof by sound and I can do it over and over again. It is not that I want to make them look like fools. I want them to understand that trial and error is the dead of audio. And that it will decrease the audiomarket each year more and more.

Absolutely, some much better than others. In the past I have used top cords from TekLine, but have mostly switched to Wire World, who calls his 'power conditioners'

They certainly increased the overall performance of my 2 Emerald Physics EP 100.2 SEs

When we sit listening to our stereos, we can’t literally see photons or electricity, but we can hear differences. 

But, to the OP, I have a Triode Wire Labs “Digital American” power cable on order to arrive this week. It is designed specifically for class D sources, amps. Supposedly helps to reduce brightness of Class D and help sound more organic. 

Will see. Check it out on their website. $500. 30 day return policy. 

If its expensive then you will trick your mind into thinking there is a difference!😆

There is no such thing as "directional" alternating current - period.  Mr. Tesla proved that 100 years ago.  

KW6 - I think it's the other way around - "it's expensive in order to trick your mind into thinking there's a difference".  A fool and his money....

To the OP
i am now trying a Triode Wire Labs (TWLs) Digital American power cord.

It is designed specifically for Class D powered devices, from DAC to Amp. it runs $500, and YES, I can hear more than %5 difference.

I am running a Class D Bel Canto DAC 3.7 directly into a Class D Bel Canto Ref500S amp (ICE modules). The cable was burned in at TWLs, and I have been listening 20 hours or so.
. I plugged the TWLs cable into the Ref500s amp and here is what I found:

. Compared to the PS Audio AC 10 and a Nordost Blue Heaven power cord that I have, the TWLs did reduce some digital edge/gain off the top end, which was an improvement.
. Also, the bass is a little deeper and cleaner, whereas before with the other cables, there was more energy put into the mid-bass, causing a mild and soft mid-bass bump that I don’t want (even on a pair of Dynaudio Countor S3.4 floorstanders).

How do I know it is a 5% difference? The sound change was obvious and significant, and this is on a relatively “high end” system that already sounds quit good. IOWs, given the cost of my current system and approaching the point of diminishing returns, I still feel this is a significant improvement.

For those interested, TWL has dedicated Forum threads on AudioCircle, they are a newer smaller American Co. (AND made in America), offer a 30 day full Refund. They regularly integrate with systems at Audio shows with Border Patrol, Vinnie Rossi, Volti, and others.

I have no affiliation with TWL, I just like it as a small American Co that makes boutique, quality products. He makes them by hand one at a time, not a big factory and “faceless” corporate operation.

I m using WireWorld power cords. He calls them PowerConditioners. They absolutely work, but how much better depends on your system