OK, good question. How do we know that the electromagnetic wave that travels through a copper or other metal conductor is comprised of photons? There are several clues. One clue is that all electromagnetic waves are comprised of photons, not just EM waves in the visible light spectrum. All radio waves, from ELF to VLF to SHF to UHF are also electromagnetic waves and are comprised of photons. Same for more energetic EM waves like X-rays and Gamma waves. They are all photons but with different energies. Satellite communications - also photons. Another clue is that we know there is a 1/4 second up and down delay associated with satellite communications for satellites in synchronous orbit, which most are. That delay of 1/4 second is due to the speed of photons which we know to be constant in a vacuum of 186,000 miles per second. The up and down distance for satellite communications is about 48,000 miles. That explains the 1/4 second delay. Are you with me? Then assume the audio signal is an electromagnetic wave. There is a lot of evidence for that especially that the audio signal travels at some large fraction of the speed of light in audio cable. We also know how fast audio signals travel through the copper cable and or optical fiber based telephone system. It’s also a large fraction of the speed of light.
Even if you want to accept the theory that much of the audio signal travels through the dielectric and outside the wire per se, you’re still stuck with the conclusion that the audio signal is an electromagnetic wave and therefore comprised of photons. Obviously photons can travel through solid materials since visible light can travel through air and water, those are obvious examples. Other obvious examples are RFI traveling through concrete and glass and your microwave-based mobile device’s capability to operate inside a house or apartment building or shopping center.
re the Double Slit experiment - the famous Double Slit experiment demonstrated that LIGHT, i.e., photons, acts as both particles and waves. The visible light photons don’t pass through the solid material, only through the slits. The interference pattern that showed up on the other side of the Double Slit experiment was proof that the individual particles of photons fired through the slits acted like waves. They interfered with each other. Of course we know now that all particles act as waves also, electrons, neutrons, even a bowling ball would exhibit wave properties - if you could build the proper experiment. By the way, the Single Slit Experiment also produces an interference pattern. What?! 😬
Al, you’re not familiar with the Double Slit experiment? Shirley you jest. 😁 |
Addendum: this thread concerns power cords so it should be pointed out that there is no “audio signal” involved. Which begs the question what is the “signal” traveling down the power cord? Is it also an electromagnetic wave, like the “audio signal,” or is it something else? Does it also travel primarily outside the conductor? Talk among yourselves. Smoke if ya got em.
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almarg
Although photons are most commonly thought of in the context of light waves, which are a form of electromagnetic wave, they comprise all forms of electromagnetic waves. As stated in the Wikipedia writeup on "Electromagnetic Radiation":
In physics, electromagnetic radiation (EM radiation or EMR) refers to the waves (or their quanta, photons) of the electromagnetic field, propagating (radiating) through space-time, carrying electromagnetic radiant energy. It includes radio waves, microwaves, infrared, (visible) light, ultraviolet, X-rays, and gamma rays.
However, in contrast to assertions Geoff has made in some past threads, in the case of electrical signals being conducted via wires the electromagnetic waves which convey the energy of those signals from source to destination, and which are comprised of photons, and which propagate at a substantial fraction of the speed of light in a vacuum (in contrast to the vastly slower movement of electrons), DO NOT travel within the conductors. They travel primarily within the dielectric (i.e., the insulating material) surrounding the conductors.
A consequence of that is that the propagation velocity of signals being conducted by various cables depends mainly on the "dielectric constant" (aka "relative permittivity") of the insulation that is used in the particular cable, the variation typically being within a range of 50% to 95% or so of the speed of light in a vacuum. As stated in the Wikipedia writeup on "Velocity Factor":
In electrical cables, the velocity factor mainly depends on the insulating material ....
VF equals the reciprocal of the square root of the dielectric constant (relative permittivity) ... of the material through which the signal passes.
..........................................
>>>>The problem I have with the thrust of Al’s post is that he seems to be making the argument that the audio signal - I.e., the electromagnetic wave, the photons - is independent of the copper conductor and only depends on the dielectric characteristics. If that were true then the sound would not (rpt not) be subject to the conductor variables of metal purity, type of metal, type of crystal structure (e.g., single crystal, long grain), diameter of conductor, cable geometry, cryogenics, and direction of the wire.
It is debatable how much of the electromagnetic wave travels outside the wire and how much inside fhe wire. Is it 80/20? 50/50? It cannot be argued that the physical characteristics of the metal conductor do not (rpt not) influence the photons traveling down the cable, which is what Al seems to be arguing.
Also, Al seems to be hedging his bet bet when he states the signal DOES NOT travel within the conductor, then immediately says it travels primarily outside the conductor.
Pop Quiz - do photons have mass? |
azbrd
geoffkait
You have lost us with this quote!
geoffkait “Electrons are only charge carriers. The signal, the thing traveling through wire at super high speed, is photons. Pop quiz: do photons have mass? Maybe you should get your money back from the high school you went to, with your friends.”
How in the world does a particle of light ie a photon, have anything to do with a electircal wire?? How would a particle of light move on a wire??
>>>>>>See, that’s the value of a college education. Knowing that photons travel through wire. You’re welcome in advance.
Do me a favor, go up to your local Home Depot and visit the wire department and ask them for some "directional" wire for your 15 or 20 amp circuit, see what they say??
>>>>Whatever.
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I see Al didn’t answer my question. I assume his post was some sort of head fake. Fanning the flames of pseudo science. 🔥
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kosst_amojan
@geoffkait "You’re right about one thing, the AC current does travel in both directions. But only one of those directions is audible. See if you can guess which one. A prize for the right answer."
The answer is both. How else do you think you build a bipolar power supply? It's the negative phase of the AC waveform pulling half the secondary negative.
>>>>A strawman argument if ever there was one. Nice!
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azbrd
Well for some us the world is flat and others its round.
If you dont understand how electrons play a roll in an electric circuit how can you understand that arrows on a wire are meaningless.
60 hertz(meaning the current changes direction or polarity 120 times, or 60 cycles, a second). (In Europe, line frequency is 50 hertz, or 50 cycles per second.)
What is the definition of a "strawman argument"? If you mean my point is based upon real science and understanding how AC current actually works and not some vudoo marketing pixie dust that this comment is based on:
"Ideally all cable manufacturers should control directionality for all of their cables, power cords, HDMI cables, interconnects, digital cables."
I would not want ANY cable in my system, home or data center that I work in that claimed to control directionality and as it turns out I don’t and none of my other audio friends do either.
>>>Whatever.
Electrons are only charge carriers. The signal, the thing traveling through wire at super high speed, is photons. Pop quiz: do photons have mass? Maybe you should get your money back from the high school you went to, with your friends.
Strawman argument is defined by putting words in someone’s mouth as you did with electrons. Follow? |
almarg
For the record, a minor correction to Azbrd’s post just above, with which I suspect he will agree: "1/60th" should be "1/120th."
Regards,
-- Al
I assume you mean aside from the fact that his entire post is a Strawman argument. To which I suspect you will agree. 😬
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azbrd
geoffkait, you need to take a course or study the fundamentals of AC ie ALTERNATING CURRENT.
The electrons in an AC circuit don’t really move along with the current flow. Instead, they sort of sit and wiggle back and forth. They move one direction for 1/60th of a second (60 Hz in the case of the US power system), and then turn around and go the other direction for 1/60th of a second. The net effect is that they don’t really go anywhere.
>>>>>I never said electrons flow through wire. Your statement is a Strawman argument. You might as well say the sky is not green.
The electrons initially move in one direction, but then REVERSE themselves and move in the other direction (opposite the arrows on your wires). The back and forth movement of the electrons in the circuit continues as long as the voltage continues to reverse itself.
>>>>>So what? I never said anything about electrons. The sky is not green.
How can this company understand directionality in a place (AC current) where it does not exist?
>>>>>>Many Cable companies, at least the ones that count, understand directionality. It’s you who doesn’t. As has been pointed out previously, almost all if not all places in an audio system where cables exist are AC. Hel-loo!
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azbrd
The amp has to absorb current generated by the the speakers to be able to control them. The direction arrows on your wires seem to point wrong 50% the time for this fundamental part the the circuit that the speakers are a part of.
Arrows, when they’re present, are intended to point toward the speakers. That’s because the manufacturer controls wire “directionality” whilst fabricating the cables. Ideally all cable manufacturers should control directionality for all of their cables, power cords, HDMI cables, interconnects, digital cables. It’s only a 50-50 proposition when they don’t control directionality and there are no arrows. I’m not referring to shielded cables which might have arrows for a different reason.
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amg56
IMHO grounding the shield effects the EMF.
>>>>Seems unlikely. Any evidence? Why would you NOT ground the shield? Pardon me for saying it sounds like a WAG.
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ostensible_constituency
geoffkait: “Oh, brother, one of the A Boys checks in with his usual failure to grasp the whole directionality thing. Doesn’t any one of the electronics EE pretend gurus even understand what directionality is?
Once again, we have an amp manufacturer who never got the memo regarding advanced fuses, fuse directionality or wire directionality, including HDMI, Digital Cable and power cords. I have one word: hyper circuit focused!”
Man that’s some thick sarcasm if I’m interpreting it correctly, but if indeed you are being sarcastic, Bravo to you! Anyone claiming directionality in a conductor made of 99% pure copper or silver is selling snake oil. Absolute nonsense.
And to answer your (poorly worded) quiz - MOST signals on audio cables are AC - hence destroying the stupid "directionality" argument. LOL.
>>>>>I realize you’re new here so I’ll cut you some slack. My sarcasm was meant for anyone who doesn’t believe wire is directional. You’d have to be living in a cave not to realize it by now. Hence my sarcasm.
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Say, itsn’t Ralph the guy who’s got some weird theory that fuse holders cause fuse directionality, not the fuse itself? Come on people! Give me a break! When are you going to wake up and smell the coffee? ☕️
I see nobody has answered my pop quiz, which audio cables are not (rpt not) operating in an AC circuit. Not even the illustrious Ralph. |
I hesitate to answer the question white because the answer would probably cause angst and consternation white among the usual suspects. I don’t have to white mention any names. Also because this subject enters some areas way beyond scope white. I’m not saying this to be coy white but because I don’t wish to turn this thread into yet white another mud fight. 💩
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🐩
mapman
Pop quiz
Of all the various audio cables and cords which ones are not AC?
Answer: nobody cares.
>>>>I’m afraid that vacuous Amish upbringing is coming back to bite you in the 🍑 You have two ears and one mouth for a reason, Poodleman. 🐩
Poodleman! He’s everywhere! He’s everywhere! 🐩
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Oh, brother, one of the A Boys checks in with his usual failure to grasp the whole directionality thing. Doesn’t any one of the electronics EE pretend gurus even understand what directionality is?
Once again, we have an amp manufacturer who never got the memo regarding advanced fuses, fuse directionality or wire directionality, including HDMI, Digital Cable and power cords. I have one word: hyper circuit focused!
I didn’t get too many responses to my pop quiz: how many cables and cords are operating in an AC circuit? Why am I not surprised? |
Moops checks in with yet another silly comment, guess he’s bored and figures, what the heck, at least he can boost his already astronomical post count. Obviously the whole fabrication process must be controlled to ensure directionality is correct. Not only for speaker cables and interconnects but also power cords and Ethernet cables and HDMI cables. Hiding your head in the sand doesn’t make the problem go away, Moops. Let us know when you guys figure out what the term directionality even means.
Pop quiz
Of all the various audio cables and cords which ones are not AC? |
Al, what I’m afraid you don’t understand, is that both wires are directional. Both wires should be controlled for directionality. Which is obviously what Audioquest does. Nice try anyway. Then you will hear the effect of directionality, because the audible direction for both wires will be toward you the listener. We don’t care what the wire sounds like in the opposite direction. I don’t think I can say it any plainer.
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georgehifi
geoffkait - “Well, in the case of the new Hurricane power cord from Audioquest you can attribute part of its very high performance to wire directionality.”
Once again, a wire that acts like a diode, "snake oil". Brilliant it's trying to rectify the mains, which is AC (alternating current) and changes 60 x a second, more "snake oil"
>>>>Oh, geez, you’re just regurgitating 🤮 what costco_emoji keeps claiming - that a wire acts like a diode. Hey, get real guys! Have you run out of ammo? No one says wire acts like a diode. After all this posturing as some sort of electronics EE guru and you still don’t even know what wire directionality means. Unbelievable!
You’re right about one thing, the AC current does travel in both directions. But only one of those directions is audible. See if you can guess which one. A prize for the right answer.
Extra credit: Why would Audioquest control directionality for power cords if it didn’t affect performance? Do you think naive gullible newbies are scarfing up the new Hurricane power cords because they think that directionality is cool?
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kosst_amojan
@geoffkait
Well, since I don't want cables that act like diodes, I'll avoid their garbage at all cost.
>>>>If you’re happy with the status quo then I’m happy, too. Everyone has to be somewhere.
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Well, in the case of the new Hurricane power cord from Audioquest you can attribute part of its very high performance to wire directionality, which Audioquest now controls during manufacturing for power cords as well as speaker cables, interconnects and HDMI cables. Hel-loo! Wake up and smell the roses! 🌹🌹🌹
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