Cable vs. Electronics: biggest bang for the buck

So Ernie, how are those Subaru's and the herniated disc doing? ( Damn rabbits ).

I can't decide if your comments mean that you will or will not want to be included in our group "Cryo treated Hubbell" purchase.

Mr. Spark is it a logical thing to do? No, Captain its a human thing to do.

Star Trek V?

Dwelling in one's true abode, unconcerned with that without --
The river flows tranquilly on and the flowers are red.

Ten Bulls

It's beautiful tonight. YO, I am sleeping! Who's waking me up?

No, this is not on Jung:
6chac: Wasn't it Spock? He with the pointed ears, but then I'm of an older generation and you said V didn't you? Didn't know Star Trek was like AR gear: MK I, MK II ad infinitum.....
Ernie, the rabbit hole has proven an inspiration to your abrasive wit. Great post Ernie, though I somewhat beg to differ. What is passive aggression? Sort of like the significant other not talking to one for a week? Can't be though, ' cause ASA, though significant, sure is erudite and talking! My mantra for the week: My mind is a component and one with all components.....('tis true by the way, was in a lousy mood last night and the stereo just sounded like crap. Perhaps that was THE moment of truth...)-: )
Cheers,

By this time everyone probably know that I am a worst of the worst speller, and my English is also stink, sorry. Oh yeah, it's not the gear, it's the HUMAN THING! (logic/no logic (baggages), etc..., what a drag!)
What is passive agression? Hmm, the lion does not have to do anything, all he need to do is to show up? :-)

Let me do the logic thing:
Mind = a component and one with all components, complex cognitive.
All components = good and bad
Good and bad = diamond and cow dump

Mood = good mood and bad mood
Lousy mood = stereo just sounded like crap

Sorry Detloft, but you only got half of the mantra. LOL. This is because you did not approve for my use of "your quote" in the last thread. ;-)

Detlof, who is Ernie?

You guys just love the "neurotic thing"?, don't you? :-)

Here is the first half of the Ten bulls quote. Enjoy!

Too many steps have been taken returning to the root and the source.
Better to have been blind and deaf from the beginning!
Dwelling in one's true abode, unconcerned with that without --
The river flows tranquilly on and the flowers are red.

If you are sick, you go to the doctor. Easy isn't it? One just don't realize if he is sick. That is where all the trouble start. Wow I sound like Clueless ;-) You poor souls...

You guys call these craps "ZEN" LOL

It's Friday, cheers everyone...

POP UP THE VOLUME!!!

Yeah, turn on the volume! Now that's the human thing to do!

She loves me, yeah, yeah, yeah...She loves me, yeah, yeah, yeah...

6chac, Ernie is....hey Pychic turn the volume down......ahem, Ernie is a Guru, steps into rabbit holes, swears like a trooper doing it and sells Submarine...ahem ..arus, methinks and ASA loves to wrestle with him. Its lots of fun...and yes both can spell too.

Psychanimal: you crack me up! You chide me, asking that the dialogue end and then, jump right in yourself! Now that's funny! "Mental masturbation"? Well, its a relative thing, I would submit for your ever-continuing consideration.

ernie: thank you for rising to my bait, and with a pretty good attitude. Yes, alot of tube systems are veiled with euphonics and are IMHO boring. But I'm not talking about these, just like I'm not talking about SS systems that commit the more extereme ills of raspy highs, etc. I'm talkng about the best, and best executed, in both in comparison on spatial/harmonic nuance perceived at a deep existential, trans-cognitve level (its not just about the size of the soundfield created, another default BTW to the assumptions of Galileo that form one of the planks of Cartesianism...). Like I said, the Pass stuff is nice, and the Parcifals too - very...precise would be my guess. I think, to perfect your arguments (by the way, what exactly are they...?), you went a little bit far with the "rug" thing. Yes, matter that comes into contact with soundwaves in sufficient proximity to our listening is a consideration, but we are talking about energy transference WITHIN the system as an energy transference/converting system, not how that system may thereafter interact with other energies. Like I've said, when the scientific ones are confronted with the logical inconsistencies and faulty assumptions on the very method which they use to beat everyone else over the head with, they tend to regress (or say thaty now you are regressing to something before science, like mediaval astrology, like Muralman saying that anyone who hears beyond his Apogees and assumptions is an "alchemist"). A little too far; I think you gave yourself away on that one. In fact, I was feeling a little bad about the "disingenuous" bait (see, clueless I am listening to you after all..) - you know, because ignorance necessarily excludes conscious intent - but I'm feeling better about that now. Hey, BTW, how are those cryo-treated outlets doin' ya?

Detlof: right again, what more to be said; mind is primary, all "components" thereafter seeking to capture the musical meaning from one mind into our own.

6ch: there you are, knew you were slunking around somewhere...here's one for you:

The wild geese do not intend to cast their reflections,
the water has no mind to receive their images.

Don't know, go strait - but that doesn't mean you can't have FUN.

Albert: shameless of me to drag you in. Hey, what can I say, no one here would say bad your way, so too hard for me to resist. You know, easy to bang chatty-catty Asa, hard to bang professorial Albert, even though he's the one with/had the Dominus. Thank you for letting me borrow you.

Have a nice wkend all.

Detlof, here is the other half your mantra.

Water is waves, wave is water. :-)

Cheers!!!

Asa,
"The wild geese do not intend to cast their reflections,"

You mean to tell me: when you have to dump, you just dump. LOL

Have a nice weekend everyone.

I *know* what I'm talking about--the person that got me into high end and darkroom photography is a friend of my father. He taught me that the most important thing to look for in audio was "resolution". WRONG. Having worked at record stores, everytime I went to his house he would show me his latest wire and/or gadget (like the VPI brick--ha!)--he in turn would *always* drool with my new LPs. He was listening to equipment...

It was so much fun when I brought my Yamaha NS-10M studio one night...he had a multi-thousand dollar transport and DAC, a Klyne SK-5A pre and a Krell sliding bias beast hooked w/ $100 @ foot speaker wire to some B& W 801's. My $315 Yamahas were *uncomfortably* close to the $6,000 801's!!! I wonder if he learned the lesson...

What *if* he hears my Modwright Swans? They would really kick the s**t out of them 801's!!!

Asa, yes, I KNOW I'm right. Nothing more simple, every child knows that, but later they forget. Healed myself and the system by listening to Patti Smith for the very first time in my life and on vinyl no less. Oh megosh, that power, frailty, resilience, tenderness, scorn and lust all packed into one voice. I fell in love with her and my system again, wires included, integral part, yes, Sub and Clue, integral. And "they" say, stators cannot play loud, cut back dynamics. BS, isn't it Albert. You either need big ones like Albert, or lots of them ,stacked, like me, to have the best of both worlds. No horn colourations, no sluggish cones...just music. Speaking of water, 6chac, me and my system, it can pee as far as the best of them... or almost, at least tonight, not that I cared about that, while Patti was in the room. Only turned silly later. Tomorrow is another story. Carpe diem..... WOW, what a woman.......life is great.
Cheers, (-;

Detlof, Patti is in the room. ;-)

Psych, a guy I know got a great deal on a pair of Swans as they were going out of business, just the parts, then put them together. I know they sound very good with triodes (heard them at length at several CES's)and I've had some Dan W. mod'd stuff, before he started the mod business, so I'm intrigued by your new project. You know, if you take those Swans, mate them with a WE300B based SE amp, put a Supratek pre in front of it, you might not chide me so much.... Are you thinking about triodes with the Swans? What model are they, Batons, etc.?

I am sending a pair of Marantz Ma-5 Class A Monoblocks (SS) to Stephen Sank for complete overhaul pretty soon.

Right now I'm using my oldie but goodie Proton AA-1150 Dual Mono. I just hooked it up to a ONEAC 1.2 KW isolation transformer--it's sounding really good. I have a Melos SHA-1 hybrid linestage, which is also a goddie goodie. Tice interconnects throughout, with a cooked (by Sean, of course) Phoenix Gold digital cable between Cambridge D300SE and Soundstream/Krell DAC-1. The DAC sits on a non resonant Caribbean Moca wood board supported by Mapleshade Triple Point cones. The CDP on Sound Qwest Isol Pads with a Bob Regal foot on top of the transport mechanism. Three BR feet under the Melos. All this on IKEA RACK tables.

Dan did a *superb* job. I take my hat off...

POP UP THE VOLUME!!!

Asa,
Yeah, the pillow was a cheapy, but how can you then concede that mindstate is also an ersatz "component" to Detlof's inability to get off in his system that night...immediately after hogging the sandbox by cleaving "external" effects on sound propagation? Trying to have it both ways?.................Detlof, yeah I'm still really struggling with the sciatic pain; hoped that the medication wasn't making my wit abrasive, though. Not my intent.
Give me a break, here Asa, I can only take one pain in the ass at a time!
Cheers.

Asa, good stereo = aural sex.
I've always wondered about gumby and gumbydammit. Was there some big interent name blowout?

I realize I checked out of this forum, but then noticed I had left behind an open ended question. As I stated in a recent post, I had an appointment to listen to a fellow audiophile’s system, and I was to return the favor. How was the system with gilded wires all the way to the breaker box, and how it compares with my modestly wired system?

There was no way to judge the wire. That was because of the two system’s disparity between space and speakers. That isn’t quite accurate. My speakers require good space for proper function. The other’s Spendors were better than most box speakers, but they paled on all levels compared to my ribbon speakers. In his own words:

“The mid and high frequencies from your system are fantastic!, that rig
really brings out the expressive qualities of the musician. Hope to hear
more stuff there soon. The superior space you have is obvious after
listening here (his home) this morning.”

My impressions of his Wadia/Coda/Spendor/small room system were that it is noticeably veiled, a bit colored, and had trouble negotiating complex passages. This was probably all speaker related. His Wadia was neutral and very smooth. It controlled bass at high volume better than my tubed player, but the quality of the bass was again compromised by speaker. His Coda, class A, was very smooth, and sweet enough. With a positive change of speaker, he will have a marvelous sound.

I do think, though, the tubes in my system impart a specialness to the music beyond speakers, the Wadia can’t match. Soon, I will find out. Both systems have inaudible noise floors. That is important to me.

My conclusion remains. Active components should be attended to first, before any hard money is spent on wires, because no wire made can make up for a poorly matched amp, speaker, or front end. Nrch’s question is answered.

Asa, oh Asa. You are a talented writer, when you don’t gild the Lily. It is your condescending manner, to the point of bullying, that puts off a number of us.

"Condescending" "bullying"? Muralman, can you ever chime in without taking a gratuitious swipe at me, evidently now on behalf of unidentified others. If you want to mix it up a bit, that's fine, but let's do it without the audience and where we can speed it up a little, or alot, its up to you. As I said - repeated here for the third time - and assuming that you can find the time away from your family, which, er, selectively, you seem to be able to, contact me directly and we will have that "reasoned, mature" dialogue I spoke about. Otherwise, keep the gratuitous personal comments to yourself. Say something constructive beyond absolutist statements, step up or put a lid on it.

Has anyone ever heard a Coda sound "sweet"? My, my...when one conducts an experiment, one must ensure that the components used to test the hypothesis are actually able to translate results either way. Has anyone ever, ever heard of taking a Coda SS amp and matching it with Dominus, or the like? Yea, I can see how an Apogee ribbon with tubes in the line can sound better than a Coda amp...

Sub: you pulled the trigger too fast again; seeing what you think I will say, thinking that's what I said, then reaching a conclusion due to your preconcieved bias. While we could have a discussion on the mind as a "component", I did not say that and think it would be out of context and confusing here; I said the mind was in a continuum (a sequence) that included components "thereafter", meaning components after the mind. That's what "thereafter" usually means...I don't know what you mean by "cleaving" external effects from sound. Maybe I missed something; you said you might have ventured afield with the rug thing - the only external effect I "cleaved" - and then say I "cleaved" inappropriately. I took amp and wire and integrated them on a fundamental level, forcing the accuracy-attached to say that it was "compexity" that mattered. I then integrated complexity on wire v. amp, saying that there were priorities at different levels of system sophistication (a point still unchallenged), at which point "functional" became the measure, which then I said that in the listening context (which, again, is the final arbiter) they were functionally equal in most advanced systems (another point that has gone unchallenged), then said that adding the "rug" was self-serving and cognitively disingenuous. Oh well...

Hey guys, I'm really sorry that you had to concede that wire can be important and not always a scam, that you can't continue to swoop into threads with your science garble seeking to down talk those who hear something beyond the measurements. Sorry, sorry, sorry, but maybe you are going to have to admit that just maybe something out there beyond a "Coda amp", or the measurements that say it must be better, or the misplaced, uninformed bias against a piece of technology vs. another just because its appearance, or because it doesn't fit in with science's bias for more moving parts in their machines (a bias originally swallowed whole).

Exasperating...

Asa, I'm sorry it's so exasperating having to deal with us common people, but to your credit you make a sincere effort. If I can make a suggestion, take the time to list your system(s). It will help many of us to understand what is possibly at the outer limits of audiophilia.

One last point, this thing that we do is supposed to be fun. Are you having fun?

Asa, Why the fixation on the Coda? This was a first meeting, it's purpose being an introduction to each other's systems, not components. The Coda's attributes did not get a fair shake played through the Spendors. The Dominus would have helped nothing, for the same reason. That is my point. If wires were the be all of components, his system would have bested mine. I have Kimber. Dominus MIGHT help me. I will gladly audition some. Where can I find a loaner?

I second Onhywy61's request.

Yes, I understand that when someone makes people abide by the rules they impose on others, namely "scientific" rules of objectivity, or make them see the faulty assumptions they operate under, in an effort simply to level the field so such people don't go around beating people over the head with their measuring rulers, that they then start regressing from responding to what you've said and try to paint you as a "bully", or "condescending" or an "alchemist" (read: pre-scientific mythologist), or as an aristocrat (the implication of your "common" man comment, although you to can't quite bring yourself to say it...). All of this because someone had the audacity to cite that those who throw around the scientific jargon and arguments don't themselves seem to have a clue regarding the assumptions of their own thought system - the same one they are using in absolutist fashion to talk down others.

I have fun most all the time, but loose hope when people of obvious intellect and intelligence make such unself-reflective arguments - and always trying to use their intellect to beat up on someone who is not an acolyte of scientific measurement. They just don't like a little of their own medicine. And they usually start ganging up when it doesn't go their way...If they get a little perturbed that they aren't able to have their way in an cognitively authentic fashion, or think that now is the time to paint me from the bushes as an "arisocrat", so be it.

Yes, my system is relevant:

First system -

TNT 4 w/ Graham 2.2, Cardas Heart cart, Hovland phono cable, SDS, M'pingo disk on plinth at arm board, BDR Source top shelf, VPI stand for TT modified, Joule Electra LA200 (the one I reviewed in TAS)line stage & OPS-1 MkIII phono, all NOS-tubed, electronics on Magic Sound Production stand with isolation platforms, Cary 805B 50W SE monos with NOS RCA/GE/United 211 outputs, WE300B drivers, Brimar mil-spec inputs with Shun Mook resonators, all matched on dedicated stands (can't remember name, about $2K and outrageously expensive - I got for $500 used, but unbelievably good for you 805 owners out there), ESP Concert Grands & Harps, Quad US Monitors Crosby mods selectively, Electraglide PC's mostly, NBS Pro and AudioNote Kondo Az series IC's, Omega Micro Planar III copper with battery boxes skpr cable elevated, dedicated room with dedicated lines, cryod outlets various, Pentagon integrated CD player (CEC/Timber before that). Most everything custom tweaked by manufacturer because reviewing (you knew that didn't you...?)

Second system: Sony CD (the $3K obsolete one that goes for about $1K used now, XA7Es or something or other), AudioNote Kondo Az to Supratek Syrah (NOS black glass KenRads 6SN7's, Mullard rectifier, etc.) through NBS Pro IC to AirTight ATM300 8W SE amp (WE300B's, Mullard 12Au7's etc.), Electraglide & Discovery PC, cryo'd outlets etc., Spendor LS35A vintage spkr's, Rix Rax custom designed stand, AudioNote Kondo KSL copper spkr wire.

When reviewed, lots of amps, which I like and think are critical to a system - like wire - Rowland, Plinius, Coda, Joule Eectra, Spectral, etc. Tons of wire (too much wire!!) etc.

Thanks for listing your systems. At first I didn't see the point of this Audiogon feature, but I now find that it can give added insight into peoples' comments. Again, thanks.

The Cable Company.

My system is posted right here, right above your post; you rushed in to respond so fast, jumping in together with Ohn (jeez how did I know you'd jump on that...?), that you typed your seconded request while I was typing mine, even though Ohn had only had his posted for a short while. Just can't keep from jumping when you've got company, eh? Hey, what about my third suggestion?

Thank you, Ohn. I hear what you say - best to have fun, and I will try to remember that more in the future. Again, thank you for reminding me.

My system is obviously tube-based, and on that basis, may be open to criticism, if not my views. I should have posted it so others could look, but never got around to it. Notwithstanding my admitted irrasciblity in some contexts, and given some people, I try not to trot out the stuff other than the ideas - which everyone can have, authentically proposed - regardless of their components or education or whatever. The problem is when people use science to perfect their lack of experience, or cognitive rigor, at the expense of other people. I was a prosecutor for ten years; running to protect is a bad habit, notwithstanding the fact that I resigned from the "law" many moons ago.

Interesting bio note, Asa (& enviable system(s)!); as a side note, did you find Jung more present in this hobby -- or your "past" profession?
On topic, Judith & Albertporter (10/10) summed up my experience with cables...

I'd be interested in your review of the Coda, Asa. Can you send it? I will actually return a thank you.

My entering a forum is determined by my leisure time, not who's posting. By the way, I am an artist, not a scientist. I have to trust my ears, and, unless I need to check for component compatibility, I never look at specs. In fact, I rarely see someone touting their amp's specs. Like you, I don't like analytical sound. I know people who utilize the TacT system. Everything is clearer, if you are sitting stone like in the sweet spot, but oh so forgettable. I'm surprised you employ a Sony, albeit your second system. I used one when I started; then someone brought over their tubed player. I went out and bought one the next day. Like you, I use tubes because they are more real sounding, call it air or whatever.

Peace

Beautiful systems ASA, assembled with love. Prosecutor? not bad, obviously you were on the road to Damascus once....

So what conclusion can we draw from all of this anamus, or has the original question been utterly lost?

Greg: What I know about Jung could probably fit in a thimble, especially relative to what detlof knows. I know about achetypal awareness, that's about it. On law: barely escaped with my life! Don't let your children go there, to the void of narcissism and the alter of glorified self-interest, whatever you do! Not many lawyers know, from an experiential point of view, about archetypal awareness...

I'm guessin' 'ol Carl J. would be a tube-man...What do you think detlof?! (yes, that's chumming the waters...)

Yes, Albert is usually right, which is why I shamelessly drug him in here, having an idea what he'd say, knowing that the scientific ones would have difficulty shifting to personally attack him (knowing that was all strategically/cognitively left to them)given his demeanor and reputation on audiogon. On a personal level, I'm a much easier target (Stone the witch!!).

Thanks for the system compliment.

Muralman, sent you a response on the Coda. On Sony, yea, it could go, but its pretty musical in a nonfatiguing way. I don't do as much heavy listening on the second system and listen alot when I'm writing. Also, the Spendors are limited so no need to load money there that I don't have -one of the material prices of not being a lawyer (but I've picked up a bad Bordeaux bug! Detlof, save me, a referral please!). Your tubed CD probably kicks its butt (!) but as someone who came through the CD wars (I had 4 PC's and a dedicated conditioner at one point just for digital components...arghh), I'm a little more reticent about CD money out than other things in (incidentally, I DO also feel that way about wire, especially on that system, but it doesn't last because you NEED good wire to make the rest go; you know, Ferraris don't like bad plugs and they let you know it, and not subtlely.). To be honest, given that system's parameters, I'm probably looking at a TT there or speakers first. With the amp's 8W spkrs, speaker compatibility becomes a pain (Coincidents? Any sugestions that equal the mids musicality of LS3/5A's?) so still mulling that over (speakers are a very personal choice as you know) but definetly have my eye on a Teres TT. I'm spoiled and only have space for an integrated there so Audio Aero or EMC-1 would probably be my only itch, and with that 2500-5000 I can go analog in the second system. Different strokes...

Nrchy, what do you think?

Personally, just looked at your sysytem and I wouldn't put Dominus on a Krell Pre & Aragon 8008, and like Muralman says, in your system I believe that spending such money, even used prices on Dominus ($3200?) would be better spent elsewhere. Say, a Supratek pre ($2500), Muralman's Pass amp and some very good IC's like NBS pro series 1's ($500)? I used to help out more on systems than now (I'm a drop out from the audio industry world too), and one time a guy asked what were good wires and I told him that the NBS Pro's were good, which were current at then time. He then told me he had Vandy 2Ci's and I told him definitely NOT to get the NBS (he wanted to keep the Vandys and liked them) so suggested Discovery Signature (pre Sakura, Harmonix, Virtual Dynamics, etc. days) with money for an AirTight EL34 based amp and with maybe an Audible Illusions pre with NOS tubes. The next week he called me after dropping 5K to Fields at NBS retail and said, no surprise, that his world didn't shift on its axis. He sold them the next week at a big loss even though I told him to be patient and he'd get a better price. Another time sold my same 805 amps to a guy and sent him a five page letter and three phone calls on what he needed to do to hear them. A year later I missed the amps and called him. He said he never heard that they made any difference, then he said, when I asked, that he'd decided to put Radio Shack wire on them for spkr wire. I bought them back for the same price. Last year, a good friend with top all Pass analog system and large Planar speakers listened to a 1M pair of NBS Pro that I had and dropped by with. He didn't want to put it in because he said his Discovery Sig did everything, so I left it for three months. When I picked it up he said it was better, but no big deal. He put his back in and his face fell about three meters.

Hmmm....

Asa, Carl Gustav a tube type..definitely. By the way, he very rarely went to concerts or listened to music. He said it overwhelmed him, stirred him up so much, that he had trouble concentrating on work and patients, that the music struck right at his core. Interesting, no?

Detlof, didn't know that about C-G. BTW, weren't we told to meet the devil head-on? Knowing he should NOT listen to music and acting upon it, Jung obviously brought his awareness to "passage a l'acte" level.
Funny thing, Asa, I trained as a lawyer (eons ago). Lost my way to Damascus & never practised! Oh well...
BTW, it's sometimes comical when one's officially supposed to be "in the know". The subjective (i.e. personal listening experience) becomes objective (i.e., whatever the guru says is objectively correct-- but let me check out this guru...). So, if following the "audio-guru's" suggestion yields a good experience, things are "staggering". If the perceived sonic value of following the suggestion is not perceptible to the subject, we completely reject the "guru".
Of course, one & all may stress the points "listen first, buy later", "in my opinion", "to my tastes", ad nauseam but to no avail...

Now, wires connecting pieces of equipment. I believe pricing is one thing, sonics another and I try to distinguish between the two: a) price, b) sonic qualities. If (b) agrees with my system and keeps my ears happy, I address (a): can I afford this? No. Good.

Likewise, comparing cables vs. electronics, bang to buck, is a nebulous matter -- akin to explaining the price of our equipment to the non-audiophiles.
As we've more or less accepted the prices for electronics, why don't we swallow the pricing for cables?? Probably a matter of visual conditioning or, "what do I SEE I am I getting for my money:
A full set of Purist Dominus (2xIC) costs about as much as one of my amps -- for which money you get a sizeable box containing ~150pds of circuitry producing a hefty current in class A. Ok, I've swallowed the asking price of those ~150 pds. But the same price for a few pds of wire??? I mean, I can't design & produce the ~150pds of class A alone, so be it, I'll buy. But wire??? Surely there's a way around the $7kx2 for THAT wire!!! (Remember, I LIKED that wire!) So, I compromise, and purchase (or make) another wire.

The question is: do I get closer to my sonic nirvana with the $7k x 2 wire and, say, a lesser chunk of electronics circuitry -- or the other way round? If it's the first case, cables offer equal if not more bang for the buck...

Admittedly, I've never tried it that way round (but many dealers I know, do)!

Greg: I agree with everything you've said. I got into this thread because some people who think wire is over-priced (yes, wire is over-priced, based upon your same reasoning regarding complexity of manufacture)but then, to perfect their argument, try to use their knowledge of science to say that, ergo, wire doesn't matter, or is not a "component"; a reductionism that the rules of science themselves don't allow. I don't like smart people picking on someone else with a body of knowledge (like lawyers do with their acquired vocabulary...)that is then used in such a way that is contrary to that very knowledge. Its obfuscation for the purpose of dominating someone else. The fact that they then call you "bullying" is somewhat ironic.

On the "Guru": yes, if you see the Buddha in the road, or the guru, kill him. Its strange: reality is suseptible to mathematical imposition, revealing truths about matter and energy and their forces, but to know "beauty" you yourself must make that journey, and the guru, ultimately, can not "tell" you, only point in the direction (hence, finally, to "see" you must "kill" your attachment to him seeing for you). We are all pointing for each other here, except when some try to use their scientific intellect to intimidate others who want to see more "beauty". But, different knowledge is state-specific, meaning that when you are attached to some type of knowledge that very attachment keeps you from seeing further possibilities, both in yourself and the world. This is where "science" is: claiming that there is no truth discernible outside scientific truth (materially/externally focused), effectively negating all future possibilities or capacities for truth, notwithstanding its own evolutionary evidence that says all knowledge evolves beyond its own parameters, always its core truths being integrated into the next, and even in the face of its own reductionist method turned back upon itself to reveal it own limitations (Popper, Kuhn etc; the seed for every next level contained in the power of the last). People who claim that only science (read: measurement/quantification externally applied) can tell us if wire has "truth" vis-a-vis a system of "components" are the same people, unknowingly, attached to the above scientism. And that is why scientism is just another ideology coersively attempting not to change towards seeing more - not coincidentally, just like medieval mythological theism attemted to do with the emergence of scientific method and its truth. The guru only points; people must have the courage to step beyond the illusory comfort of their self-limiting ideologies in order to see farther.

Yes, if the Dominus makes the system sing - you see more beauty than with a more "complex" component, thereby rendering it more "functional" experientially - then what do you do? A Van Gogh painting is only a mix of paint swirls - its molecular construction is less complex - but does that make it less able to translate "beauty"? Is "complexity" in matter, although a consideration, nonetheless secondary to the "functional" result in listening of that construction? Even in science, isn't the result of the experiment, observed by the comparing mind, determinitive of the technolgy used to achieve that result? If you contend the opposite, aren't you being, in fact, un-scientific? And if you are claiming to be the bearer of scientific sobriety, while at once violating the very rules you hoist upon others, aren't you being irrational, that irratioinality fueled by you desire to be secure in your set of ideas, however misplaced? And, doesn't the need for security, the desire to be safe from other ways of thinking beyond your own, manifest, behaviorily, in a subsequent attack on all those who might point towards something more?

Wire, amp, price, pragmatism, a balancing that sees what is true in the moment of experience of listening and does not deny that truth, or its possibility, in default to fear of that possibilty - the Middle Path.

Nrchy: "So, in your opinion what is the better value, assuming the relative value of your components being about equal. Is it cheaper to buy great cables or great electronics? Then, which would provide the biggest improvement?

To restate: I was confronted with an impending test of Nrchy's question. It was by no means a controlled scientific test. However, it does help illuminate the dilemma. Two of us were to listen to our two systems, both of which were comprised of, in the owner's eyes, components of comparable value. They are both similar in dollars value. I will label the two systems A and B.

A is a Wadia/Coda/Spendor/Nordost system. The owner, listening to an "art = science" guru chose to spend serious money replacing twenty feet of romex with 8awg silver cored teflon shielded cable. Obviously, he hoped for a bigger improvement in his system than he might get replacing a piece of electronics.

Fair enough?

B is my Jolida/Pass/Apogee/Kimber system. I differ with system A's contention. My thinking leads me to believe I could best improve system B with another amp arrangement, say biamping, since I perceive it's only weakness being lack of power feeding the bass panel. I would choose this rather than upgrading wire.

Wrong?

Remember, Nrchy never postulated a base level of overall system value that would perhaps magnify the relative value of super wire.

It is my belief that system A could have been vastly improved if the money put into wire had been instead put into a speaker upgrade. Furthermore, the money put into the Nordost was a waste too, given the state of his electronics.

Choices is what this thread is all about, not science versus art, component semantics, Jung, or Buddha. By evolving my speaker/amp/front end to ever increasing levels of excellence rather than gilding the wires, I know I have made the right choices. Owner of system B now joins the score of audiophiles that agree with me whole heartedly after listening to my system.

Nrchy, the answers to your questions are system specific. Shoot for the stars systems like yours may well indeed benefit from wire rolling. I am not in the position to disagree. For us groundlings with sub twenty grand systems speaker/front end/amps choices are far more reaching. IMOH of course!

Muralman has put the thread back in track! after I requested closing it--damn...

I have just talked to Dan Wright updating him on the details of my system. The Modded Swans are letting me hear things in a totally different way and since I have moved to a different appartment I have lost my reference point. That's not all bad, either. It will just take me a little bit longer to figure things out.

Muralman has a very valid point--like his system, mine would benefit most with another amp, an electronic crossover and a sub--simple as that. I am not placing a lot of emphasis on esoteric speaker wire when I just purchased spec'ed 12 ga. silver plated copper (Teflon insulated & sheathed)50 ft for $32.50. Some Bananas ($26), silver solder and vapor cryo treatment @ $10/ lb will give me more than decent performance and free my cash for other priorities.

Muralman, yes, wrong.

A Coda high current SS amp (what vintage, the one designed for the Legacy, as old as the Spendors, not that it makes much difference?), Nordost IC's (assumably the SPM's, some of the most denuded upper mid IC's around), and silver speaker cable into what you described as a badly constructed room, only digital, and you think that is fair point of departure for determining whether a cable such as a Dominus is good value for the money, or has a value at all? Are you crazy?!

Digital with silver through Nordost IC's and an arc welder SS amp hardly known for its harmonics and air into a crap room and you want us to value your opinion, reached conclusively from this one foray into what you assume is a fair and determitive test? This is a system that DOES NOT and WILL NEVER excell at the performance aspects that a Dominus is designed FOR.

And what do you use to compare? A Jolida CD straight into an SS amp with silver wire and ribbons? No pre, just the Jolida running the volume through what kind of volume control? Do you know why 'ol HP just did a survey of the best line stages around and they were all tubes, and, wonders of wonders, he found out that they made a large difference in performance in ADVANCED CD based systems, and even ADVANCED phono ones? (You remember, don't you, Stereophile mags failed attempt about five years ago via the now departed Steve Stone to get us all to go passive? So, other than price considerations, why isn't the world running passive? Hmmm...)

Yes, we can return to the original thread question (remember, I asked Nrchy to respond a little bit ago), but this thread has also been about much more (the bwhite and audieng dialogue for one). But my point is that the alleged objective experiment that you set up is flawed before you even started in the context of judging a piece of wire like Dominus, which IS the context of the question. And since, to support your argument, you are using this experiment and its results, that becomes, well, kinda important - you know what I mean? "By no means a scientific test". Ya, I'd say so.

So, if you want to stick to discussing whether Dominus is the right CHOICE for Nrchy, as I already said, obviously not. But as you said, THAT'S NOT HIS QUESTION. He asks: in a system where components are relatively EQUAL in value, what would I do, given the Dominus experience.

Muralman, let me repeat this so you understand and can respond, which you haven't as of yet: as the system becomes better, wire becomes more important. In other words, with Nrchy's Aragon 8008 he would probably do best with your Kimber, just as you do best with your Kimber, or that the Coda system can't hear harmonic and spatial performance beyond Romex (eeck!). But in Porter's SoundLab Ultimates/Aethetix/Dominus system one can hear a LARGE difference between cables BECAUSE his system excels at subtle harmonic and spatial nuances that a yours can NOT replicate. If your system keeps "increasing in excellence" as you say, yet you continue to regard wire as you did when you started, ignoring this CHANGING DYNAMIC regarding wire value to a system as a whole as the system improves, then that assumption will hold you back. If you've only got $20K, that's fine, OK, but to continue to deny this dynamic based upon your experience, or your system, or the one-time test-not-a-test you present to us here, is, well...

I don't like to comment on people's systems because its, well, crass, but since you seem to think that yours and the one you cite seem to give you some big experience on making conclusive statements, it seems appropriate, if not overdue.

As far as Jung & Buddha not being about choices, the lack of knowledge in that statement leaves me, finally, speechless.

Good Asa, you're cooking again...Muralman's getting the best of you? No, I'm not chiding ewe (I had to look up that word in the dictionary--it's *Saxon*).

As for me, I'm happy where I am---I'm starting to focus on a farmhouse, a horse and a boat--adiós audio gear!!!

I'm not sure what some of the above comments mean, but I did a review of Albert Porters Purist Dominus several months ago now. If I understand correctly some people don't think my system is of sufficient quality to hear subtle differences in cables. I will say again that the difference between the Purist Colossus and Dominus was not subtle in any repect. I exhaust the list of superlatives when trying to describe how HUGE it was.
Purist Dominus is by far the best interconnect I have ever heard in any system, regardless if the owner prefers tubes or SS.
The crux of the matter remains: would I find a greater improvement spending $7000 on Dominus ICs or in a $7000 amp, pre-amp, speakers, or front-end???
If I had the money I'm not sure if I would buy a better amp or the Purist ICs. That's how good they were.

Referral ASA?, Certainly: "Jadot&Freres" Dijon, "Caves Ropitaux", Mersault, to start off with..the only cure from Bordeaux is a good address in Bourgogne....Cheers.

Detlof, Asa, others: NOW we're getting somewhere (ref to Bourgogne, Detlof's latest post).
Isn't it unfortunate that the guru can only *point* but cannot carry you there; the actual journey cannot be made by proxy, each for, & by oneself... but we all know that, whether we accept it or not.
Asa, I believe I understand the path to which you're pointing.

If I may, so does this thread's iniator, Nrchy -- in fact, his initial post and his latest (16/10) sequel are quite clear.
Fortunately, we all have our opinions on this thread's subject without which, we could fall into Descartes' trap with the donkey: a hungry donkey is contemplating two IDENTICAL hay-stacks, at equal distance, without ANY elements (visual or otherwise) that could draw its attention to one particular stack. The donkey has to START eating one of the two stacks, mouth is watering -- which stack to choose? None, because there is no data allowing it to make the choice, so the donkey will die of hunger :). (nowadays, maybe order out for a pizza!)
Sorry for ranting -- clink!

Wire/cable is an *extruded* product. A $7,000 interconnect is robbery anyway you put it. Doesn't take much to figure that one...

Oh come on Muralaman. I come in this morning and nothing. You say you want "Peace" - which was nice - said you'd thank me if I listed my system publicly and then contacted you - which I did, and nicely, notwithstanding that I'd invited you to contact me three times and you hadn't, and had said I was a "bully" etc. - then you replied, privately, by saying that I was "authoritarian" (read: dictatorial) in my posts, "insulting" and "thin-skinned", and no "thank you" to be seen. So, I take you to task for making absolutist statements in your last post - once more revealed in your position that, somehow, your friend has been converted by your faulty, one-off experiment on a flawed system against your pre-less, mid-level CD system - and not even a burp. Actually, psych was right; it was bread on the water, bamboo across the back, 6ch's koan-like utterances, a bear trap for your ego, so I applaud your restraint. With that said, my points in content remain outstanding.

Thank you detlof. I will call this morning first thing.

Nrchy: I didn't mean to say that you didn't or couldn't hear the difference - I think you DID. But, many people don't and I didn't think it was such a good idea to just say to Muralman that he should just get a piece of Dominus and he'd find out. Nor did I think it would be fair because I know that Muralman wouldn't do that and the expense and hassle would be prohibitive for him given that he probably wouldn't be interested in purchasing it. Yes, a piece of Dominus can be heard on many systems of all different levels, and it can even "do" more in more advanced systems. Again, whether it is worth $7K is a matter of financial relativity. I couldn't afford it, but that doesn't mean that it might not be a valid choice under certain circumstances.

Which leads me to this. Yes, I hear you, Gregm. A way to look at it is symmetry breaking. If you are flying above the earth at a lower altitude, the coastline looks like a jagged line. But higher, it looks more like a staight line. The higher knows the lower, but the lower, if it claims that you can't ever go higher, claims the coastline is only jagged (knowledge is state-specific). Interestingly, if you say to the low flyer that he can remember being lower and the coastline was different then too, so why can't he believe that it might be different higher than he goes, he continues to illogically say, no, there is no higher; thus, by his attachment to his level of sight he limits his own possibilities; the "donkey" sees two equidistant stacks because of the assumptions he brings to them. All the flyers are equal in their potential to fly - they all are in the same type of planes - and it is only your limitation upon yourself that limits how high you can go. "The Kingdom of Heaven is within and all around but men do not see."

Psych, house in the woods, house in the woods, house in the...but the same world is there too, albeit a little quieter (my choice also).

Psych, well now, that is a different consideration, one of pragmaticism and relativity. If a wire is "extruded" - and I take you to mean that because it is less complex in its manufacture then it should be priced less - then what of the situation where someone builds an amp using old design theory that doesn't sound very good vs. someone who designs a wire with new technological know-say, say, electromagntism, that sounds great?

Here's what I think the real problem is, and one I sympathize with: many people believe that the "technology" or design creativity behind wire, regardless of its complexity in structure or lack thereof, does not justify the price vis-a-vis other more complexly constructed "components." And, that wire being so expensive - while admittedly being important in a system, and perhaps even increasingly important in systems as they advance - nonetheless, the DISPARITY in value of construction vs. maginal utility of performance is so imbalanced as to be suspect. Moreover, since wire makers seem to rely on scientific theories ("Golden-stranded") that appear less to do with science and more to do with marketing over-priced wire, this suspicion becomes heightened. In this heightened state, therefore, we should be on guard towards over-priced wire that claims that it will transform your world.

Sounds like a valid argument to me, pragmatically speaking. Yea, if a guy is taking advantage of a good product by hiking the price, then we should perhaps look elsewhere. The problem with that argument is that this is not the country that you live in; capitalism is premised upon the assumption of infinite greed, with the further assumption that lessened demand will result in corrections to over-priced product. Its not robbery to take money from people who pay, which why some people here did not take that tack, instead choosing a "scientific" or "empiric" approach. So, if its not the seller's fault - given the theory of our economy - then it must be the buyer, which is what the real motivation for what alot of people are saying but not saying: not that wire isn't a "component", not that "complexity" is determitive, not that the capitalist system is flawed (which, er, could be your next argument, another kettle of fish), but that people who buy such wire, regardless of its subjective performance even if true, are STUPID for spending that much.

But again, its relative: would the Bangladeshi think that your stereo purchase is STUPID in his/her context? You see what I mean?

I don't spend that amount on wire because I don't believe in a system premised upon infinite greed and don't respect the wire maker who takes advantage of the flaw of that assumption - I simply don't want him to get the rewards of an allegiance to the assumption of infinite greed. I don't think its a good way to set up a system - encouraging everyone to prey upon each other mentally because you won't take the courage to think of something better - so I CHOOSE not to buy it; my philosophy and orientation determines that choice, not an inauthentic "scientific" argument. That doesn't mean, however, that its not great wire in performative terms.

An extruder is a very sophisticaded machine--a good one will cost about one million dollars. My last job was in idustrial inkjet sales, mainly to the extrusion industry (yes, the coding that repeats itself on and on and on...).

Quite the contrary, because a good extrusion machine is capable of putting out a well made, sophisticated product in one run that's why good cabling shouldn't have such high prices. Look at companies that have their own extruders and what they can produce for the money (Belden & Monster among them). Extrapolate this to state of the art product and one can see that there's no reason (in a capitalist system) for the prices to be unrealistic.

Sorry about the delay. my computer ate my monologue. It was a lot more fun and spontaneous than this will be.

Asa, I knew it was a bad idea when I opened a private dialogue with you. I Had been warned that you might use underhanded antics of injecting excerpts from private mail exchange where it suited you .

Such a breech of conduct puts a pallor on my writing. You know you can be abrasive. You have even, on occasion, excused yourself in subsequent posts, invoking excuses like drunkenness and colds.

re: my last post. You continue to inject your disingenuous spin on my sober account of my audio system comparison. Nrchy’s questions that I quoted speak for themselves, Nrchy’s late seemingly coerced “clarification” not with standing. His questions have legs of their own and it was to those questions I addressed. It should be obvious there is no need for the name Dominus to be interjected into my example. My point was, and still is, there are many thousands of budding audio enthusiasts who have been slid down hyped wire. Yes, I am proud to have influenced my neighbor. He was throwing money down a rat hole “improving” his wires. Now he is attending the basics of good home audio, like replacing his Spendors (how's yours, Asa....If you need advice...).

My neighbor’s quote, once again:

“The mid and high frequencies from your system are fantastic!, that rig
really brings out the expressive qualities of the musician. Hope to hear
more stuff there soon.”

re: My lowfy system: I used an abbreviated equipment list because it was simply not germane to my conclusion. Yes I do have a pre amp, the Pass Labs Aleph P. My main players are all first rate, thankyou. Three of the four were graded SP A, though that’s not why I chose them. The Jolida 100 with NOS tubes is little known, but who cares? At $900 It is the best buy out there for great sound. The Aleph P is wonderfully engineered by Nelson Pass who’s wizardry is obvious on his current X and XA amps. I have the Pass X-150. I use balanced play because that is when the super symmetry circuit kicks in. All audible “white noise” is canceled without the use of feedback. Sheer genius. Even the faintest anomalies present with various tubes in the front end are faithfully passed on to the listener without a hint of veiling ss nasties. Next there is the room. One needs a great room when using large dipoles. Mine is a large rectangular stiff plaster and panel room. Its ten foot ceilings are cross beamed. Now you need a great speaker that can articulate those faintest of signals.That is what the Apogee Duetta Signature is for.The big Apogees first impress you with a wall of sound, then lets your hair down wiith it’s holographic staging and imaging. All the uncanny tactilenss of musicians in their venue environments is captured. Asa, you could do a lot better with your speaker choices. I don’t see how you are enjoying underlying nuances if your speaker is not as fast or uncolored as a ribbon. Then again, your insistance on utilizing microphonioc impared tube gear for the sake of ”air” precludes you from any source nuances anyway.

Anyway, have fun zoning out on the color pink. It occurs to me you are not mollified by your noise floor focus system. You wouldn’t be so irritable. Oh well, this is not a forum made for personal jousting. I’ve made my piece perfectly clear to the willing listener, and will not be returning to this particular thread. Til another discussion....

Wow Asa, as I was about to click the submit button I read your last post. Right on good man! I take back all the bad stuff I said....After I post.

Psychicanimal, if there is little or nothing to the construction of these $7000 cables can you make a few pairs for me? I will pay you $1000 per pair for every one that sounds as good as the cable I currently have, which by the way is not as good as the Dominus. You should be able to get rich on this deal.
Why are people willing to justify the cost of expensive electronics but not cables? Electronics degrade the source signal more than cables can!
There seems to be a degree of inconsistancy here.

Psych:

Yes, just based upon construction costs, but a capitalistic system is based upon supply and demand dynamics; the system should be based upon cost IMHO, and competition forces should drive prices down, but with "unique" products cost of construction is negated, ie a painting. This is where the mega-buck cable manufacturers fall in performative terms, or so they would contend. The question then becomes: is the performance worth it to you, in the context of such an economic system? Again it is relative. Reject the premise of the system, the capitalistic God, or reject the idea that mega-buck wire is unique. Saying it is not unique may be an argument, ie mega-buck cable is not sufficiently different in performance terms than cheaper stuff, but unless you make that argument, you can not point to construction expense as the determinitive factor in determining marginal utility, or value of use (read: performance). A factor to look at, but one that becomes incresingly irrelevant as demand increases and you have uniqueness of product. The mega-buck cables prices suffered from both, as did all components. Specifically, in the 90's the Japanese SE market propelled prices exponentially higher, and particularly in wire like Purist and NBS that excell at stae of the art tube systems; the Nordost Valhallas/SPM's which are consumed by bothe SS and tube afficionados came later. We are still suffering from this escalation. And although I may consider its escalation artificially high based upon irrationally high demand, capitalism doesn't care about irrational demand or not; it absorbs infinite greed, buying or selling.

So, again, you are left with the idea that people are stupid to pay so much. But then again, our economy is premised upon the climb towards such objects, the incentive to become "somebody" through acquisition. If you want to argue that some buy mega-buck cable simply to say they are owners, adding to their idea of themselves, that's a valid argument because surely it occurs. But again, is it determinitive of value in terms of performance?

Yes, agreed, extrusion of metal is not as complex form of construction as an amp, either in terms of matter arrangement or labor or means of production. But if that technology performs better, regardless of those factors, and IF it cost you nothing, which one would you pick?

You see, its the COST OF PURCHASE that bothers people, the $7K, not the construction cost. But if you were to make that argument, then you would have to argue that the cost of other "components" in a stereo is also not justified based upon construction complexity, ie. a tractor would have more absolute "value" than an amp because its more complex. You know why that doesn't sound right, like comparing apples and oranges? Because value is not to be considered in a vacuum but considered in terms of a tool's USE. "Use" describes, in stereo terms, its performance - so there you are back to that.

Then, you are left making the argument that construction costs do not justify that level of performance, the DISPARITY thing again. But again, that's relative based upon income and you desire (your demand).

Is a Van Gogh worth $54 mil? Should wire be considered tha "unique", or since the NBS's of the world have been caught up with by the Virtual Dynamics of the world, is the disparity not justified.

I would say incresingly less so, and thankfully so. But yet, the Dominus does "do" something in state-of the-art systems that people who have them say is critical - the space and harmonics thing. Is that true, or are the Porter's and HP's of the world merely hearing things?

Hardly Asa, they are not hearing things. I've edged closer to what I consider to be a live rendering of instruments and voices in real space by the judicious use of cables. There is no doubt about that and I am not finished with this process.